SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This paragraph of the article went a little contrary to what I believe. Then again, if we don't open our hearts and minds to another's input, we may never get to the real truth of a matter.

Did they ever really love me?

This one is hard to answer. It all depends on how you define love. One thing is for certain, if someone betrays their mate, what they've done is not loving. However, I believe every human being is capable of loving someone, while at the same time, acting in ways that are selfish and contrary to love.

On the other hand, I believe many people have a shallow understanding of love. They get married thinking they love their mate, but in reality, they love how their mate makes them feel about themselves. If that's the case, they will continue in the relationship as long as the marriage continues to make them feel happy. But if, for whatever reason, the marriage ceases to make them feel happy, or if they find someone or something that makes them feel even happier, then it won't be long until the allure draws them elsewhere.

If that occurs, does it mean they never loved you? It's hard to know another's heart, but it is possible that their journey into the forbidden caused them to realize that their mate the life they've built together is what they really cherish. At the very least, if they are choosing to work on the relationship, I believe their betrayal and your response to it may be the very thing that begins to teach them the true meaning of love. Many times, healing after an affair involves discovering what real love looks like and feels like.

What do you think about this?

I don't know where you pulled that from, lol, but.... idk.

I think that MAYBE some folks spouses think and act according to how that paragraph described, but certainly not all if them.

Certainly there are folks that value and don't value loyalty in themselves. For someone who wants to consider themselves loyal and feels great pride in their loyalty, to the point that they consider it a major part of their identity... if someone like that cheats, then they've betrayed themselves just a much as their spouse.

That same person is likely the kinda wayward to come clean on their own because they couldn't live with themselves... and also not the kinda person described by the paragraph you quoted.

I have thought a lot about love and its meaning since my affair.

I have settled on affairs are not loving, but they are more a result of lack of integrity, commitment, and character. In a long relationship you are going to have times you feel closer/ in love than other times. It’s not a crime to be less focused on loving your spouse from time to time. We all experience loss and grief and other things that cause us to not have much to give.. A period where we are numb and nothing matters to us. Those are the periods people with stronger character choose to work on that and make active moves back towards our spouse.

I didn’t marry my husband just for how he made me feel. I married him because he is a good man, we have similar sensibilities, we are compatible in almost every way, we have always had a strong friendship, and because I loved him. We treated each other pretty well throughout our pre A marriage.

It was receiving love that I had a bigger issue with. I don’t think I ever felt as good of a person as he was. He was older so for a long part of our relationship he was more accomplished, he knew what he wanted more than I did, and he lived his life in pursuit of his happiness. I lived my life in a state of sacrifice because that’s what I believed needed to happen in order to show love and earn love.

Brene Brown says when you numb bad emotions, you numb the good stuff too. I think through long term self abandonment, I was numb at the time of my affair. I didn’t care about anything. I resented him for my unhappiness but was too busy to really think that through and too afraid and lazy to pull the trigger on doing anything about it. There was a lapse in choosing to actively love him and an active choice of putting my efforts elsewhere. And so to me the crime wasn’t falling out of love with him. The crime was what I did about it. We had hard times before, and we will again.

Certainly, some people who cheat on their spouses are not capable of love. And some think they love their spouse, that they are just getting "extra". They tell themselves they are filling a need that their spouse refuses to fill. . I think my h believes he loved me his whole affair. In my own affair, the first time the ap told me he loved me he followed it up by saying he also loved his wife.

But I don’t subscribe to that. It’s not loving to have an affair, to risk your spouses health, and to throw away such integral parts of their security. I don’t see how you can claim to love someone while cheating. At the same time I don’t see it as proof they never loved you or can’t love you again. It varies greatly upon the the situation as to what the future can hold.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:43 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]

Notthevictem - I see where you're coming from. As I mentioned, I don't necessarily agree with what is being said here, but I think we need to consider it. Like you mentioned, not everyone falls into this category, but some may. Perhaps someone reading this part will get their "ah-ha" moment and realize it describes their WS. Maybe.

Also, while reading your comments, another thought came to mind. I read where some people while enduring some type of abuse will mentally "go somewhere else" while it is going on. They (again, in their mind) go to a beach, or an amusement park, or wherever. Just some place where their body is not. I no longer recall the term for this but it is similar to a split personality. One personality is getting abused while the other is elsewhere. It's their way of making it through the abuse without having to endure it or the consequences, because it "wasn't them." In this article it was suggested that as an adult, while the A was being acted out, this person once again employs this "split personality" tactic to enjoy (if you will) the A but not have it tarnish the rest of their life and relationships, because it "wasn't them" who cheated. Does that make any sense?

hikingout:

It’s not loving to have an affair, to risk your spouses health, and to throw away such integral parts of their security. I don’t see how you can claim to love someone while cheating.

My very thoughts exactly! But, WS's do claim they DO love their BS, and that makes no sense to me. This is what got me to read the article in the first place - because that thought is so foreign to me. The first time I caught my W cheating, she admitted she made poor choices, realized how much she hurt me, was really sorry, was really mad at herself for doing such an awful thing, etc. She asked for forgiveness and promised to never do such a thing again. I forgave her and we went on. Everyone does stupid stuff and I believe deserves a chance to show they will never do such a thing again. When I found out the second time, I realized this wasn't "just a mistake" and that she wasn't really as sorry as she claimed to be, so we got help. The third time, well, that showed me she wasn't sorry about hurting me, only sorry she got caught, and liked cheating a lot.

I believe if you truly love someone and did something to hurt them, AND are truly regretful about what you did, you will make absolutely sure you never repeat that hurt. However, when you have hurt them and CHOOSE to hurt them so you can enjoy what you're doing, I am convinced that is not love at all. I am convinced you don't really love that person. I am wondering if this paragraph of the article IS describing my WW - that she loved how I made her feel about herself, but didn't really know what love truly is and has a shallow understanding of it.

I agree with a lot of this. I remember grappling with whether my ex WS loved me given everything she had done. Later on in my healing as I learned about codependency and my own way of loving, I started to question if the way that I knew how to love was really love as well. That line of questioning threw me for a loop. The conclusion I came to within my therapy and healing overall was that I did love my former WS, and she loved me, however we loved one another within the limitations of how we knew to love. In my healing I have since expanded how I love, and I only ever want to be with someone that can love me in a similar way.

I did love my former WS, and she loved me, however we loved one another within the limitations of how we knew to love. In my healing I have since expanded how I love, and I only ever want to be with someone that can love me in a similar way.

This is also my experience. I think we loved each other but have expanded our views on love, how we love, how we want to be loved, etc.

I believe every human being is capable of loving someone, while at the same time, acting in ways that are selfish and contrary to love.

Yeah, noooooo.

Love isn't a feeling, it's action. It's a verb. How you feel about someone doesn't amount to a hill of beans if you're not treating them with care. My H was absolutely enamored of me and put me on a pedestal, but he was also cheating, or hiding that he had cheated, at the same time. Feeling warm and fuzzy about someone and wanting something from them is not love. Giving is where the love really is.

I'm not a religious person, but I think 1 Corinthians 13 describes love perfectly. It literally saved my marriage:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I mean, we've all seen that a thousand times, but it came to me in a daily affirmation email about three weeks into our separation and it hit me hard, especially the part about being self-seeking. I knew that what my H had been doing wasn't loving, obviously, but also what I was doing was not loving. I wanted his attention - good or bad, just pay attention to me, dammit! - and the return of his adoration and his allegiance, and I wanted to yell at him. A lot. I was manically clawing at him to give me something, anything.

It really shook me, and I decided to write him a note with the verse and my take on it, and my realizations, and stick it on his windshield. He had been asking me to just chill and leave him alone to think, so writing the note felt a little like crossing a boundary, but it was crossed with peace offering. Here, take this gift. I don't want anything from you in return.

It got him thinking about what love is, too, and how he had not been loving with anyone. AND it shed light on how the AP was not being loving to him either by not respecting his request to be left alone, or respecting that he was hurting and not jubilant like she was about the end of his marriage. It was a major turning point.

My shift in how I thought about love and gave love led to his shift in how he thought and gave love. It saved us. It changed how we give love to each other permanently.

I had largely forgotten about this. Thanks for the reminder!

ETA: THIS is real love in a nutshell, and yes I'm quoting myself: lol

Here, take this gift. I don't want anything from you in return.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 3:38 PM, Wednesday, February 28th]

If that occurs, does it mean they never loved you? It's hard to know another's heart, but it is possible that their journey into the forbidden caused them to realize that their mate the life they've built together is what they really cherish. At the very least, if they are choosing to work on the relationship, I believe their betrayal and your response to it may be the very thing that begins to teach them the true meaning of love. Many times, healing after an affair involves discovering what real love looks like and feels like.

My situation is different from most on this site. DD was 42 yrs later of A. My WH had carried his secret and it has affected our entire marriage and family. His confession was like a dam bursting for both of us. So much has begun to make sense. He's a good man who f*kd up. I feel for the first time in 48 yrs I'm getting 100% of him and it's good.

This paragraph is absolutely spot on:

On the other hand, I believe many people have a shallow understanding of love. They get married thinking they love their mate, but in reality, they love how their mate makes them feel about themselves. If that's the case, they will continue in the relationship as long as the marriage continues to make them feel happy. But if, for whatever reason, the marriage ceases to make them feel happy, or if they find someone or something that makes them feel even happier, then it won't be long until the allure draws them elsewhere.

My ex was such a person. Once I stopped being an endless and reliable source of constant praise and validation, he started losing interest in me. The absolute death knell for our marriage, and start of the relationship with OW #1, was when I started advocating for my own needs, stopped making excuses for him, and not tolerating mistreatment by him and his garbage family members.

But this paragraph is kind of bullshit...

If that occurs, does it mean they never loved you? It's hard to know another's heart, but it is possible that their journey into the forbidden caused them to realize that their mate the life they've built together is what they really cherish. At the very least, if they are choosing to work on the relationship, I believe their betrayal and your response to it may be the very thing that begins to teach them the true meaning of love. Many times, healing after an affair involves discovering what real love looks like and feels like.

If we're talking specifically about people who have a shallow understanding of love, they don't see their spouse as a person with their own agency; the spouse exists solely to serve their specific needs and desires. They're not actually afraid of losing isn't their mate per se... what they realize they "cherish" are the comforts and conveniences of marriage, the services the spouse provides, the respect and support of family and friends, and their financial stability. And that realization, if it ever happens, only occurs in the face of severe consequences (eg, imminent divorce).

Therefore, if this particular type of WS feels they have more to lose than to gain by getting divorced, then they will do the bare minimum that they can get away with (or perhaps the very limited maximum that they are capable of) to remain married. Note that I didn't say reconcile.

In my case, my ex and I didn't have kids and didn't own anything together. OW#2 (his ex-girlfriend) made a lot more money than I did at the time, she was perfectly performing a Bob Fosse-choreographed pick-me dance that dialed his ego up to 1000, and his family and friends were cheering on our relationship's demise. For these reasons, the only thing that really upset him about me leaving was the fact that he would have to pay rent and all the bills by himself for about a month before he moved back home.

In retrospect, I'm grateful that I didn't have to waste years of my life chasing after his bread crumbs or trying to drag him-- like a limp-limbed, screaming toddler-- toward a genuine effort at reconciliation.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:32 PM, Wednesday, February 28th]

Cheaters cheat because they feel ENTITLED, because they have an avoidance personality, because they want attention, because they are IMMATURE.

Very rarely it is for maturity, actually NEVER!! They are like kids who hide with their tub of jam and hope not to get caught. They behave like children and yet they pretend to be treated like adults.

It is NEVER ABOUT THE BETRAYED SPOUSE, IT'S ABOUT THEM!!

SacredSoul33:

Love isn't a feeling, it's action. It's a verb.

I gotta' agree with that. Being patient, being kind, etc., those things are all actions. "Actions speak louder than words," as they say. Or, "What did you say? I'm sorry, but your actions are so loud I can't hear what you're saying." And as we say here, "People will SHOW you who they are, and when they do, believe them."

maise & hikingout: I think your comments regarding how to love and what love looks like to you and your spouse are really important. I will be talking about this with any prospective dates because I think that answer will be indicative regarding whether we are truly compatible or not.