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Reading the other thread on why people R, I am reminded of posts here and on other forums where people say certain things are "death knells" for R in the long run.

Some examples I've seen:

1. False R or inability to stay NC by WS
2. WS doesn't do IC, reading, or other self-improvement work
3. lack of remorse, defensiveness, or blame shifting from WS
4. EA + PA (as opposed to one or the other)
5. WS was confronted with evidence as opposed to confessing
6. trickle truths over many months or years
7. multiple APs, i.e. WS is a serial cheater
8. WS leaves the BS to live with AP for weeks or months

There's probably more, but that's all I can think of, and it's probably enough to give you the idea.

I'm curious if any of you would agree that one or more of these factors doesn't bode well for R, and what your personal experiences have been.

For me, 1,2,3, and 6 would have ended it for me. (I think) as we’ve all learned, no one really knows what they would do until faced with the problem. 🤷‍♀️

WS was confronted with evidence as opposed to confessing

If this were the case, then no one could reconcile. Cheaters who proactively confess on their own (without the threat of exposure by the AP, OBS, are other third party) are unicorns.

Everyone has their own limits. I personally could not R if there were multiple Affairs. If I find out there was even one previous, I doubt I would be able to continue. However there are many people here who have successfully R with two/three Affairs.

Of your list I went through just about all of them, other than number 7.

My personal experience 1 is the one I struggle with the most, and has done the most damage. If WW had just confessed all on when I had confronted her, and ended the A then, things would be in a much better place.

I'll second what others have posted and:

Reading the other thread on why people R, I am reminded of posts here and on other forums where people say certain things are "death knells" for R in the long run.

Some examples I've seen:

1. False R or inability to stay NC by WS
2. WS doesn't do IC, reading, or other self-improvement work
3. lack of remorse, defensiveness, or blame shifting from WS
4. EA + PA (as opposed to one or the other)
5. WS was confronted with evidence as opposed to confessing
6. trickle truths over many months or years
7. multiple APs, i.e. WS is a serial cheater
8. WS leaves the BS to live with AP for weeks or months

There's probably more, but that's all I can think of, and it's probably enough to give you the idea.

I'm curious if any of you would agree that one or more of these factors doesn'

t bode well for R, and what your personal experiences have been.

I would add "addiction(s)" - drugs and alcohol and even some hobbies and smoking!
Kissing a "smoker" akin to sticking nose in an ashtray.

then the one kicker - most of all - "After the Affair" you just don't like the WS anymore.

Everyone is different in how they decide on D or R and I think no one knows what they will actually do until they experience it. I think of 3 categories:

1) Strength, length of the relationship before the A and 'entanglements' in the relationship. Entanglements may be a bad word but means children (particularly young children) and finances (joint business ownership and/or ability to retire on time or well if D)

2) Duration and intensity of the A itself. This includes a huge list of variables and some of them may seem small to one person but be the death knell for another. Was it a PA, was it an EA, how long, was there direct, deliberate, repeated choosing the AP instead of the BS for special events, was sex denied the BS, were specific sexual acts given to AP and not BS, did the A happen in the marital home and/or bed, was the AP a friend of BS or mutual friend of the marriage, did WS introduce AP to BS during A, did WS insult or demean BS to AP or to WS friends and family, was an STD acquired, did WS or AP get pregnant

3) Response of the WS on/after Dday and self healing ability of BS. amount of trickle truth and gaslighting, ability to get to remorse, WS ability to own their actions and stop blaming BS, ability of WS to persevere with healing the BS and their own healing without rugsweeping, did the WS confess or not, can the BS take the actions they need to heal, is there a spiritual component or faith component that propels BS toward forgiveness

[This message edited by Trdd at 1:57 PM, Saturday, March 16th]

Cheaters who proactively confess on their own (without the threat of exposure by the AP, OBS, are other third party) are unicorns.

Mine did, and it’s why I wanted R, despite multiple affairs and him leaving rather than ending the A. He didn’t leave to be with her, but he wouldn’t end the A so I essentially kicked him out.

Lying, including by omission (TT) would have been a dealbreaker for me, I think. I just wanted the friggin’ truth, once and for all. And he gave it.

An OC would have been the death knell for me. Recovery would have been OFF the table. I don’t think I’d be able to deal with an AP long term like that.

I always thought it would be the EA that would do me in and I’d never be able to go back from that. My WH had an EA+PA with AP1. I saw the messages - she was way more "in love" than he was. She was the first to say ILY, she would try to steer the convo towards romantic mushy ILY stuff - his texts usually started off with "what are you wearing"? When she tried to talk about their "future" he would speak in general vague terms, like "we’ll see", or "maybe we can do that". It was very clear that it was one sided - he was into the physical only, she wanted more - a relationship, a future. I always at that that AP was nothing more than a vessel, a mouth and a warm body - nothing more. With the most recent EA 15 months ago (AP2) I found the messages almost immediately- it had been maybe 7-10 days in. There wasn’t much context - but it was enough, he was saying flirty compliments. Again same MO.

These are some pretty good bullet points . I have seen so many different stories on here about A's that people have had and have had to deal with...the scenarios vary widely. I believe a summary of a "death knell" if a couple is trying to go for R...is if one of the parties in R is not ALL IN. In order for R to be successful...BOTH parties have to be ALL IN.

If this were the case, then no one could reconcile. Cheaters who proactively confess on their own (without the threat of exposure by the AP, OBS, are other third party) are unicorns.

I don’t know about unicorns but far fewer for sure. There are a few that come to mind here on confessing in their own. I did it, but I am not sure how much leverage that really gave- we still almost got divorced. Inkhulk’s wife confessed on her own and he has a post up right now that definitely shows it doesn’t mean it’s smooth sailing.

I also think one of the most common affairs is an EA + PA. And I think most ws have lack of remorse in the beginning, leading them to be defensive, and blame shift. I don’t think most ws are model from day one. You don’t go from being your worst self to your best self with a fingersnap.

I think I would more call this list of things "makes it harder to reconcile and a death knell for some)

Personally, I think there is rarely a universal death knell. Probably you listed ones that would take a lot of people out. Many people stay married in these circumstances. Though many stay married that of course is not the same as reconciling.

But I would add:

—Gave their spouse an STD.
—-Diagnosis in therapy (for example not sure I would reconcile with a sex addict. Plenty of people do, but I just feel like the impulse control, relapses, the extensive behaviors usually found in those cases, I just don’t think I could sign up for that. Someone with NPD would also be a hard pass for me because there is no cure and likely there is other forms of abuse present)
—-Same sex affairs is a deal breaker for some. While many people do reconcile just fine, such as Sissoon. So I know what I am about to say isn’t always at all the case- But for me I would be concerned of their orientation and that there would always be suppression of who they are. I would want for my husband to be happy and in alignment with his true nature.Now of course I understand people are bi, but I think personally I would have trouble incorporating things my husband might need sexually.
—they did a lot of things for the AP they never did for me and continues to refuse it. I believe everyone has bodily autonomy, so I would not try and convince them into a sex act, but this does make it much harder to reconcile.
—-they cheated for a fetish that I am unwilling to provide. For example, I am not going to choke, whip, torture my spouse to get them off. Nothing wrong with any of those behaviors between consenting adults, but to me that is a sexual incompatibility that in my mind they would always crave.
—-I would also have a hard time about prostitutes. Though not a deal breaker for all, I think I would have a hard time accepting it, considering my husband knows sex trafficking is rampant and we have talked about that a good deal. This one is a maybe for me, but would make reconciling harder.

But everyone has complications in infidelity.

Sometimes in long term M’s, the resentments build up, and the WS is unable to overcome the resentments and remains defensive and even entitled, even in the face of their own infidelity. Here is an example of a WS with such an attitude, in a letter to the BS with terms for starting R:

"I have come to realize that I need to grow up and get on with my life as it is, which means that I am staying with you in our marriage. I don't have the stomach for the alternative. I realize that I cannot be the agent of destruction of your life. As many ways and angles as I look at it, that is the only conclusion to come to.

I have managed to make my way in the world with you up until now. I believe I can find a way to continue doing that. I need to grow up and move on to a more adult & practical view of life and our relationship.

With this in mind, I am asking for the following things from you:

"Give me space. I need to do my errands, and see my friends. I don't want to be aware of your disapproval the entire time I'm away, and then be confronted with your disapproval when I return to you. You are a very intense person and I need a break from you from time to time. I am not ashamed to admit that, and you should not get your feelings hurt when I do.

You job, from here on, is to make me happy. If I have the sense that you are trying to make me happy, I will be nicer to you and want to be with you more often.

If I want something from you, I don't want to came, cap in hand, to ask you for it. If I ask for something from you, you need to do everything in your power to make it happen. making me wait is a passive aggressive move on your part.

I want you to get involved in something. I don't care what it is, but I suggest something that has a physical element to it. I would also like you to explore meditation.

Stay in therapy after we sort through our marital problems.

Understand that the focus of my non-working life for the foreseeable future is my hobby. I have the opportunity to be successful and it is important to me that I do everything I can to do that. This does not mean that the hobby is my focus to the exclusion of you. You are not to be threatened by my hobby.

I believe that this is an outline that can help us balance the power in our relationship."

Needless to say, this letter was the death knell for R!

Wow, fareast. I have no other words. Can't blame you for that letter being the death knell!!

I would add "addiction(s)" - drugs and alcohol and even some hobbies and smoking!
Kissing a "smoker" akin to sticking nose in an ashtray.

then the one kicker - most of all - "After the Affair" you just don't like the WS anymore.

Hippo, my WS has recently taken up cigar smoking, so this made me LOL. And yes, I've told him I think it's gross and unhealthy (he already has high BP, bad cholesterol, and ED), but he doesn't care because "it's my new passion and I'm only smoking once a week." Needless to say, his new hobby is not endearing me to R. I definitely struggle to like my WS. Love, in a family way, sure, but *like* is much harder.

To hikingout, yes, those are some good additions to the list! Blackbird mentioned OCs, which would've been a deal breaker for me, too.

My WS confessed, but he did so after repeated confrontation and pressure. He also lied and gaslit me for years prior to dday1 and until dday4. The only truly voluntary confessions came about 10 months later (i.e. dday4), when he was taking the Affair Recovery class for waywards. I've experienced everything else on my list except for #8. I've thought about why these things weren't deal breakers, and I've accepted that keeping my family intact is a higher priority than personal happiness right now, and while I'm here, I might as well give space for R. I can't give it much effort, though, and I'm definitely not "ALL IN" as Want2BHappyAgain says.

The ones I don’t see on here that would do it is finding sexting, bad mouthing about me and generally vile behavior about me and our marriage. I get being angry about the other. We are all human..I think, but when the person you love tears you down, sends explicit texts and sexting I could never unsee or unread any of it.

Great one far east. I have known many couples who were stuck or divorced because the ws could not put down their resentments enough to have empathy for their bs.

In some cases though, I also know that the resentments were over abusive behaviors. In that way, I think the death knell can belong to both spouses. "I need you to see my trauma as bigger" is a theme I have seen play out here many times. I could name several ws here that continue to stay with their abusive bs. Their stories would curl your hair, and several who pointed to a long list of normal squirmishes they called traumas.

Sometimes the ws has good reason for holding onto their resentments, sometimes not. I agree it’s something that is a common death knell over the time I have been here.

From everything I've read over the past few years, a BS that is looking for R will find reasons to justify. That's just what it is. Following many on JFO, they start with, if....words words words...then D. The bar then continues to be moved. I therefore really believe for many there are zero "death knells" although it will be denied. "But I love BS despite all the horrible unforgivable things they have done". Okay. I have seen many say if they tell me one more lie.... Three months later and 14 additional disclosures. Some people have actual boundaries but many just say they do. Sorry, but that's reality.

Trdd, this is an excellent breakdown. I agree 100% that these three things matter as much as the things on the initial list.

1) Strength, length of the relationship before the A and 'entanglements' in the relationship. Entanglements may be a bad word but means children (particularly young children) and finances (joint business ownership and/or ability to retire on time or well if D)

2) Duration and intensity of the A itself. This includes a huge list of variables and some of them may seem small to one person but be the death knell for another. Was it a PA, was it an EA, how long, was there direct, deliberate, repeated choosing the AP instead of the BS for special events, was sex denied the BS, were specific sexual acts given to AP and not BS, did the A happen in the marital home and/or bed, was the AP a friend of BS or mutual friend of the marriage, did WS introduce AP to BS during A, did WS insult or demean BS to AP or to WS friends and family, was an STD acquired, did WS or AP get pregnant

3) Response of the WS on/after Dday and self healing ability of BS. amount of trickle truth and gaslighting, ability to get to remorse, WS ability to own their actions and stop blaming BS

We faced 1-6, but it helped that before the affair, we had 27 years together, including some experiences that no one who had not lived them would understand. He had an emotional and physical affair- a limerant fantasy to escape his own grief and depression. I had force a confession. But it turns out I am a strong woman with way more emotional intelligence than him, and he was willing to do the work.

That said,3 days after DDay, I laid down a line that we both know to me absolute: even the slightest additional betrayal and I am gone. True then, true today.

but when the person you love tears you down, sends explicit texts and sexting I could never unsee or unread any of it

This is one of the main reasons I tell people to think before they look at everything. My WH was sexting constantly for an entire year - I would say probably 330 out of 365 days. I did NOT read it all (I mean - it's all pretty much the same after awhile) but I cannot un-see it, and honestly I think it's been a major impediment to me and WH going any further than the divorced and casually dating status that we have been in for the last year or so. He and I NEVER sexted and I find a lot of sex talk before and during kind of a turn off so it's definitely not my thing, but WH never tried those things with me so IDK if he even knew that about me. But, but, but...while their sexting wasn't anything really out there (no S&M or weird fetish type stuff) it was just so graphic and gross - and honestly I felt a bit embarrassed for them even reading some of it. If I take ME out of the whole thing it just seems pretty pathetic and a bit lame. But it just made me realize how much I did NOT know about my WH - I had to wonder "who is this person???" It altered my brain on so many levels...