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I have not updated for a few weeks, (the last post was in Reconciliation under Mental Gymnastics). We signed the final D papers but have not turned them in. After we signed them we both (me especially) freaked out and decided to hold off turning them into the lawyer for another month. When we signed I immediately felt crushing grief and despair followed by intense fear of regret and my head was filled with all the positives in our relationship. WH decided to lay off pressuring me to make a decision and not hijack my emotions. He has done better. We both continue to feel so sad about the state of things.

Anyway, one thing I’m in my head about is this…
Filing for D in November obviously gave the message, "I’m halfway out the door." Could that be the barrier of reconciliation for us? This is what he is focusing on, only one small action (as in turning in the paperwork), and our marriage will be officially over. Is holding this in the air too much of a barrier to work and focus on R? I think what made me think about this, apart from his comments, are advice blogs/forums I’ve read encouraging those who are working on deciding what is best to take D completely off the table for at least 6 months and make it a safe space to work on true reconciliation without threat of D looming over the relationship.
So, I’ve been in my head thinking I am the one that ruined any chance of R by filing for D, or then us meeting with the mediator, then reviewing the paperwork, then signing. Taking steps to D all along while being "on the fence" doesn’t sound or feel much like limbo.
With that being said, each step towards D has been initiated due to a mistake on his part (hijacking my emotions, stupid fantasy story, etc.). That seemed fair at the time but was it? It almost seems he has been destined to fail no matter how hard he is trying. It’s probably more complicated that our marriage was really struggling prior to D-Day. Perhaps proceeding with D was my last resort to get his attention? Thoughts?

Something that our MC told us is that we weren't to talk about D unless we really, really meant it. No popping off with "I can't take this anymore". If you're holding it over his head with the intent of making him act, it is a bit manipulative, honestly.

However... if he won't take action unless he's facing consequences, that's not conducive to a healthy R, either. Has he to take initiative to do "the work" himself, because he values you and wants a better relationship with you.

How do you feel about taking D off the table for a set period of time and seeing what happens? I'm betting that you'll get a much clearer picture of what you want to do if you try that.

I just think you are being guilted by someone who knows how to push your buttons, canned advice from the internet, and possibly your own fears of being scolded by some people?

In my life, more and more I'm noticing across every situation, whenever we stick up for ourselves by setting a boundary, we can expect to experience guilt and even get shamed and blamed for having to do so!

Whereas your focus needs to be on getting out of Limbo.

Today, my SAfWH and I went to look at a little house he was told he could rent after we moved his furniture out of my house last month. The house isn't ready quite yet, his friend just bought it yesterday, but it isn't a bad place for a guy to hang out while he realizes his own choices brought us to that point.

I'm like you in that I'm not sure how I'll feel if and when he moves there, but it's certainly a step to get us OUT OF LIMBO! If you needed to draw up those papers, you had your reasons to do so. For years, I used to read another marriage website and as you say, they always stressed "not to talk about D." Well, that advice cost me 12 more years of my life in Limbo - before D-Day 2!!

By the way, my WH isn't even emotional about the upcoming move by n ow. It's been coming and he knows he set things up to have it turn out like this.

Are you guys living together, going to counseling together or individually?

I filed for D in Nov also and went through mediation in March. We agreed on things but I felt like I should hold off sending them in to finalize. I have been seeing how things go since then. We live apart and my WH is in counseling which seems to be going well for him. I have done a little bit of counseling. My WH has been catfished for months by someone he thinks is a woman, sex worker that posts a bunch of online podcasts, videos ect. It’s totally bizarre. He knows it’s fake and wrong and has lost a lot of money. Found out he contacted them again a couple weeks ago and sent money he didn’t have to spare. He is a mess. I feel because he isn’t healed from his addiction we haven’t even given R a chance. I don’t know what I am going to do.

I didn’t mean to unload my situation but I wanted you to know where I am coming from.

From what you are saying it seems to me filing the D paperwork was a wake up call. Have you been seeing improvements that give you hope? What are the actions you are seeing?

I know divorce is hard and heartbreaking. It’s devastating and maybe that’s why we hesitate to make it final. Do you see yourself living a single life? Would it be peaceful for you?

I am reading an amazing book that is helping me make the decision. It’s called Living and Loving after Betrayal by Steven Stosny. There is a whole section on helping you decide to R or not. Please check it out!

I would be happy to private message you if you want. I really feel your struggle.

It's hard for me to weigh in on this.

My h asked me for a divorce around month ten. We went to in home separation. We drew up the papers but didn't file them. I did talk him out of filing them. I had reached a lot of clarity by this stage, I felt remorseful, I thought maybe now that I didn't feel so jumbled or crazy we had a chance to make a go of it if he still wanted to. I don't think I manipulated him, but it's really hard to look back that far and say for certainty.

He said he would give me six months before reassessing. So, that's what we did. But, his affair started 18 months in. So, my experience with this is all very messy. I don't think that if he changed his mind on that six months and said he wanted to file that would have prevented me from being successful, even if it meant successful, alone, in my next relationship, etc.

However, I can see that something like that could cause a person to spiral, which if you do not have coping skills will perhaps result in acting out. I would less focus on what he seems to want or need, and focus on asking yourself what do you want?

Do you not want the divorce because it makes you feel guilty? Doesn't really sound that way to me, you said you were flooded with a lot of different ways that the relationship did make you happy. Write those things down and determine, is it him you want? Or did the things you wrote down sound more like things you could have in any relationship? If you truly and genuinely want this relationship for things that are unique to the two of you then I think you owe it to yourself to maybe set a time goal and put it aside until you get there.

However, I think if he is going to do things like write down fantasies that trigger your greatest pains and fears, then you are possibly setting yourself up for more trauma and pain. So, I think that even if you go another six months with this, there still has to be some detachment in place to protect yourself from this pattern of behavior.

Do the things you owe yourself, you do not owe him. You have a right to want to flee when he is doing things that continue to compound the trauma of what has already occurred.

SacredSoul33 - Taking D off the table feels mentally impossible for me. I'm not sure if it's because that's too scary, or I'm feeling "not fair, he deserves this threat", or my gut is telling me nothing will change, or I envision feeling the ick putting more effort into connection with him. My mind goes to all of those places honestly so I guess keep D front and center is like keeping an exit ramp along with me but I do agree that I can't really focus on either doing that so not the healthiest.

Superesse - Exactly what I'm afraid of...getting stuck for another decade. What are some examples of what focusing on getting out of limbo looks like you think?

PinkJeepLady - Yes living together. We took a total of 8 weeks apart. I felt peaceful without him around but thinking about that being a forever thing made me sad. It does seem it's been a wake-up call around some things with some improvements. He is listening more, reaching out more, prioritizing me more, and seems way more in tune with me. Single life sounds good here and there but not all the time. He and I do really well going on trips and he is always game to go wherever whenever. He is very active and loves trying new things but it's just the two of us or our family. He doesn't do well in groups or sharing or having his own friends. It's like I wouldn't be alone because I'd have him but I'd only have him and we have no group friends and he has none. Not sure if that makes sense...I'm rambling.

Hikingout - always love reading your thoughts. Yes, definitely some major guilt on my part. I think he plays into this by being so incredibly helpful around the house and with wherever he an "easily" lend a hand. I need to see if I can figure out if what I like is truly unique or how a normal healthy relationship should be anyway. We've been together since I was 16 I have so little experience. Thank you for validating the need for detachment...I really believe that's true. I don't think he is lying about major stuff anymore but I still get this feeling he is censoring himself in fear he may say the wrong thing, almost like he is walking on eggshells around me. Here are some things that make me happy; he is super helpful with chores and errands, loves to spend time with me and is totally game for whatever I want (trips, restaurants, shopping, watching TV, games) he is truly just happy with my attention, same views on bigger stuff (politics) loves his family, love of nature, solid work ethic, if I ask for help he is there, he is the type that would help wipe my ass or hold my puke bucket should I ever need that. Some of those same things have the flip side though...he is needy for attention and validation (hence the indiscretions) he is game for whatever but I come up with 99% of what that is, all decisions I have to make (admittedly I'd happy with making the majority 50-75%).

I asked him last night if the D was impacting the chance of R and surprisingly he didn't think so. That brought me some relief. My heart tells me it is impacting it for me but I just can't take it completely off the table (like rip up the papers). I still feel I need my out at any given moment. Whenever I decide to try to lean into the relationship it's when I've been alone and then after work or we are together again I just don't feel it at all. So much love for him but no pull or desire for more. It makes me so sad. We always come back to never feeling enough for one another. I feel a LOT of guilt about that. I did a crappy job earlier (small kids era and time of his flirty and kissing affair) in our relationship complaining about all the things he SHOULD be doing and I definitely made him think he wasn't enough for me. I'm NOT blaming myself for the indiscretions, just being honest about what was happening in the relationship early on. Now with his indiscretions, I don't feel like I was enough for him. Never was intimate enough, or pursued him, or spent enough time with him, guilty if I walked with friends when he was so eager to walk with me, etc. This shit is so hard, enough of my rambling for the moment.

You filing D papers is not keeping him from fixing himself. It's also not why your M is in trouble. Him sticking his dick in strange is why you both are here. Please don't forget that.
Most people that making lasting changes need to be self motivated. If he is to become a safe partner, he needs to want to fix himself because he doesn't want to be broken anymore, full stop. Regardless of whether you prepare the D papers or actually file them, should not be the reason that he works on himself. If he is willing to give up because you D him, then he was never going to be truly safe. On that note, you need to let go of the outcome if you want to truly get out of infidelity. You're letting fear guide your R. That's not a good place to work from. Even if you do everything "right," he may still decide to continue the A or get a new AP down the road. Do you want true R or to rugsweep so that you can stay M?
Personally, I believe that everyone should D their WS and let them figure out if they're going to fix themselves for the right reasons. If they continue going to IC and working on themselves, they can always R after D. So take my advice with a grain of salt, but look at how many people are on SI because they THOUGHT their WS was truly R, when all they were doing was checking the boxes. Stop approaching R from the angle of fear. Stop tip toeing around your WS, he's not a timid animal about to take flight.

10000% what Still Living said.
Do not bide your time.
Consequences generate action. If yoh aren't getting change remorse and the real heart of why then D will protect you from additional harm and pain. Whereas holding out hope due to fear of change or being g alone will almost guarantee more pain and hurt.

As always, Tushnurse manages to summarize my points in many less words! So: "What She Said!!!"

What are some examples of what focusing on getting out of limbo looks like you think?

Going ahead and filing your already-signed-off-on Divorce? So you can get this particular teeter-totter dance over with? I'm dizzy just trying to figure out what to say...because it so reminds me of my own situation.

I sense there is more that is holding you back from filing than what this "hopium" business might be. You certainly don't have to share any financial or FOO concerns. I would totally understand. Yet what kind of marriage is it when only the threat of dissolution is keeping somebody in line? Y

StillLivin - I've often thought this too, that D and then heal, grow, and if R happens so be it. You are correct...approaching R from fear is not good but I'm struggling with that. Also, he didn't go that far in his cheating, 2 flirting/mild texting with 2 different people about sex and then with another person kissing and he stopped before it went further (I've confirmed this and am 99.9% confident I have the full story). While I'm not trying to minimize what he did, I do want to consider it on some level, not sure if that's good or not.

Tushnurse and Superesse - thank you, The finances are a consideration for sure but not in the front of my fears. Definitely some FOO issues too.

If you keep focusing on getting away from where you are, you're highly vulnerable to jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

One way out of the trap you're in might be to focus on what you want. Think less about getting out of limbo. Think a LOT more about getting into a good life.

How will you maximize joy for yourself? You describe staying M as a chore. Evn when my M was at its lowest point, the evidence I saw was that we could R and live a good (I don't mean 'comfortable') life together. I never saw staying together as a chore, which I take to mean something like, 'endless, unrewarding, difficult, boring.'

It's fine to be undecided. If you're truly undecided, what info are you looking for? What info will tell you that R will or won't work for you?

endless, unrewarding, difficult, boring

Very helpful post from Sisoon. Focusing on how to find joy versus getting out of Limbo - I like that so much. Even if it means you do a reality check and realize that a measure of joy is unlikely to arrive in your current state.

This pretty much describes marriage to someone with mental deficiencies...like when you always have to do your own brain work and theirs too, because they cannot imagine or anticipate outcomes from their actions. You know it's going to be endless. And it's really not rewarding to be expected to always explain the world to someone with whom you are intimately intwined - there's never an end to the extra work load. It's difficult to understand and anticipate their shortcomings mingled in with their good qualities; doesn't seem to make sense. Which is why you go round and round, right? But it's so boring to know the situation is never likely to improve. Or is it?

I meant to come back and say that list is not a bad list, but I don't know enough about your situation to help determine if they are unique. I mean, it sounds like you can trust him in certain categories that are important. You trust he will take care of you if you are sick, and you trust that he will pitch in and help. You have comradery and find it easy to spend time together, that's not a small thing.

I can understand if you have been together since you were 16 that it's difficult for you to know what's good, what could be a lot better, or what that might be like with someone else. I married my high school sweetheart and divorced him. It was my decision, there was no infidelity. We got along as far as being able to have fun together, and I think we genuinely liked each other. But the way he wanted to deal with our finances and sex life were huge obstacles. We also had no idea what we were doing (we got married when I was 20/divorced at 22. And, the guilt was really terrible. The fear of the unknown kept me in place for some period of time and thank goodness we didn't end up having kids.

It's possible to have a relationship where the satisfaction rating is high, that the other person doesn't look to other people for validation, etc. Perhaps now spend a little time to look at what you don't like about your relationship with him. Infidelity is enough grounds for divorce, but when you look at the relationship overall, the things that cause you the greatest pain points, are they things he is likely to overcome. For me, that answer was no. I gave him what I could in terms of direction, but it's not who he was. At a certain point, that became painful to him because he felt he wasn't enough. I don't feel that way about him, I could see that he was doing his best, but we were simply incompatible in major ways (beyond the couple things I cited) That wasn't his fault, nor was it mine, but it was going to be impactful on my life forever.

I don't know if that helps or not.

Sisoon - I am trying to get my brain focused on what I DO want with and without a relationship. I feel like I'm looking at both options as a chore honestly and I need to really work on changing my mindset about it. I think right now I'm looking for deeper growth, and doing what I've asked for becoming a safe partner. For example, he is sharing a lot more but hasn't scheduled a poly yet.

Superesse - that also really resonates for me. Doing my own brain work and his as well. People say don't do theirs then, but that is hard when the hurt they have inflicted outreaches their ability to do what it takes to heal the relationship so now I feel left having to do it mostly myself. Feels more hopeless than boring but yes. The round and round is real.

hikingout - what I don't like about the relationship; having to direct 95% of everything, obsessiveness, spousal burnout from adhd, negativity, poor social relationships causing no couple friends. I think he could direct more and that we could work through that, the rest I don't see changing. I totally get what you are saying .... the point where neither of us feel enough for one another and when we voice needs it ends up hurting the other. Almost causes me to hate myself for expecting more than he is capable and then he hates himself for hurting me because he struggles with doing the work needed to improve our connection.

Yep, exactly. I always thought we just weren’t equally yoked, and while sometimes that’s surmountable I don’t think it was possible for us.
It’s a very hard thing to feel confident about from where you stand. I just would advise you not to stay for fear or guilt. If it’s more than that, give yourself more time.

Thank you. I just heard a great quote a moment ago while listening to a podcast

"Relationships are like broken glass. Sometimes it’s better to leave them broken than hurt yourself trying to put the pieces back together."
— Alex Haditaghi

Polygraph completed today, results show truthful, passed all 4 questions. My brain is processing this information.

Well that’s a good thing I suppose. Take your time in processing. I worry that if you still want to divorce him that this puts more checkmating in the guilt column. I could see you saying "but we paid for a poly and he passed".

It’s perfectly fine to process this as a step forward as well.

Regardless of the path and how it will wind , at least allow it to provide some peace of mind that you have the truth about what happened in your own life.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:27 PM, Tuesday, June 11th]

thanks hiking out...you are correct about the guilt. I'm going to have to work hard to keep that in check. I've done a lot of work to prepare mentally and have some reframing statements that have been helping with my misguided guilt. I'm taking a two-week vacation alone to process and think. Hoping that helps, appreciate your support and words always.

I've done a lot of work to prepare mentally and have some reframing statements that have been helping with my misguided guilt

Yes, something that might help…would you want someone to stay with you out of guilt? I wouldn’t.

That’s not to indicate there isn’t other valid reasons to stay or that I know what you should do because I don’t think that at all. But I thought perhaps that might help with your framing.

And if you cheated on him, would you want him to feel guilty about what he must decide or about how you feel as the betrayer?

Not sure if that helps but some things to think about. Enjoy your vacation!