SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

If you were this insufferable monster, that failed to respond to multiple attempts to improve your marriage, your wife should have served you with divorce papers. This would have had the same shocking, reality check slap-in-the-face effect on you as an affair minus the sadistic and, many times, permanent damage (mutual destruction, lasting trauma, loss of trust, disrespect and humiliation, desecration of the marriage). Basically, stuff that is very difficult-if not impossible, to ever come back from.

That’s why affairs are a completely irrational way to fix or escape a problem marriage. So much so, that it begs the question as to how much of any marital disfunction did SHE contribute, was SHE responsible for?

She didn’t have to resort to the nuclear option. There’s never a rational reason to resort to this level of self and mutual destruction. So any “reasons” she gives you should be seriously questioned.

If having an affair is part of her repertoire of marital maintenance and repair efforts, she is just as flawed a partner as you claim to be-if not more so. Probably more so. You seem to believe that you drove her into an affair, put her into desperate and dire straits that created this situation. Many BSs assume blame-desperately assume blame, because it gives them a sense of control over the outcome: "If I just fix my shit, everything will be alright-better than before, and she’ll come back to me." This is a fallacy you don’t want to get trapped in.

No one should be able to force you to give up your morality, ethics, dignity, marital vows. There has to be something preexisting and fundamentally broken within you to do that. (Chamomiletea says it better than I just did)

Was what she did a coup de grace blow to your marriage, an exit affair, or a cry for help?

If it’s a cry for help, she, SHE needs to make this distinction, loud and clear, by first getting help for herself, fixing her shit, finding out what preexisting marital dysfunction she has contributed and why she resorted to the nuclear option of infidelity. Resorting to infidelity is a cry for self-help. This should make her take a hard ass look at herself-first, before placing any blame upon you. Resorting to infidelity has made it clear that there are bigger problems within her to address before fixing you-you who never cheated, and before fixing the marriage.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 7:43 AM, Thursday, April 20th]

I know y'all are going to disagree with me but I know my wife…

Echoing a couple of other folks here…no, you don’t know your wife. You thought you did, but now you’ve had a glimpse behind the curtain. Actually really see her. Un-know what you thought you knew. See her.

Conversely, after almost 9 years and thousands of threads, I feel like I know your wife. I’ve seen her pop up in hundreds of these train wrecks, and can predict the outcome with disturbing accuracy. Nothing is 100%, but I know where to put my money.

Her lack of interest in saving the marriage, no matter how badly you want to save it, bodes poorly. Very very poorly. At the moment she has you fighting for her, which probably feels good, but does she deserve you?

Let me say first that I really value everyone's support and advice. Even if I argue against it please know that I still appreciate it and, as so many of you have said, I'm not in a great place mentally and that's probably making me argue against my own self interest.

---

It's been a two steps forward, one step back kind of week.

Tuesday after work I took our daughter to her riding lesson and then came home and made us dinner. We all ate at the table for the first time in a while. She initiated conversation; not about anything serious just life and kid and work stuff. It was nice.

Yesterday I followed some advice I'd gotten elsewhere and told her

1. That if reconciliation doesn't work I'm not interested in raking her over the coals in divorce proceedings. This is to ensure that she doesn't stay purely for financial reasons which, to my mind, would just mean another affair down the road.

2. That I recognized that part of having tough conversations was trusting that you could say something that would be hard for your partner to hear without having to fear that they would blow up or freak out.

Those two things seemed to really reassure her and she said she didn't want a divorce and gave me a long hug.

But then came the step back. We were laughing about the crazy sex toys on Ali Express (we do an annual white elephant with friends where we exchange sex toys and sexual gag gifts) and she jokingly suggested that she gets me an automatic blowjob machine.

My stomach dropped and I clammed up. I'm lucky, I've never had a trauma that could actually trigger me. I was shocked at how sudden and uncontrollable it was. It took me a while to examine that feeling and figure out why that hurt and even more to work up the courage to tell her how much that hurt. But I did and I told her that I needed to say this and she needed to hear it because we needed to talk about the landmines so we didn't keep stepping on them.

At first she was apologetic, she didn't think, it wasn't appropriate.

Then I mentioned that I better understood the situation when she had once because of being triggered punched a respiratory therapist that startled her at work.

And that's when things went off the rails. She told me she was triggered that day because she had been trying EMDR therapy for her trauma and it had really fucked her up. And it turned into a marathon conversation about our marriage, our sex life, all of OUR problems.

Eventually, I told her that I wanted to hear about this stuff and I wanted to work on it but we couldn't even start without addressing the affair.

And I gave her a single boundary, don't go to the casino where you met the AP, which he probably still frequents, where they went together frequently. There are two other casinos in the area; I'm not robbing her of a hobby.

I wanted access to her phone if and when I felt I needed it. And I wanted her to turn on location history on her phone. I wouldn't be tracking her in real time but if I needed to I could see where she had been.

Finally, I needed her to really express remorse for the affair not just for hurting me. Because if she isn't sorry about the affair then there's no reason to think she wouldn't have another.

She complained that I was treating her like a child (I understand that's a classic response).

She wouldn't commit to any of it. I told her she didn't have to decide right away, shouldn't decide while emotions were high.

I think she honestly thought I was just going to let the affair go. That it would be without consequences. I'm flabbergasted that she would think me so spineless.

---

Man, that was a lot to get off my chest. I'm keeping up the 180 and spending time cleaning up what has been kind of our junk room so that it's ready for me to move all her stuff into it if it comes to that.

I think you are doing well especially being so close to your dday. None of us handled this situation perfectly. Keep it up and be vigilant. It is not controlling to set boundaries for your M. She destroyed your trust in her. She will need to accept the consequences of her A, and take action to rebuild that trust. It may be a halting process but over time you need to see her progress in accepting her own failure and show empathy for your pain. I hope you feel more in control. You did very well to defer discussion of any marital issues until the A is addressed and she takes actions to deal with her brokenness. If she continues to believe that it’s okay to cheat if you’re unhappy in your M, how can you ever trust that she won’t cheat again as issues arise? Millions of people every day feel unloved, ignored, disconnected, and distant in their M, but they never cheat on their spouse. Why? Because they made a sacred vow to be faithful for as long as the M lasts.

Good luck.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:26 PM, Thursday, April 20th]

Sorry Bob, you aren’t maintaining a 180 if you are able to joke with her. At this point you know she does not have remorse and acts like a child. She’s going to continue pushing boundaries if you give mixed signals. Let her feel the repercussions. 180 for me meant no communication unless absolutely necessary , WS in another room, no lunches or dinners together and further discussion would happen only when he comes clean and restricted to the path forward. ( D or R). The only conversation I initiated was division of assets and taking appointments with the mediator.

She complained that I was treating her like a child (I understand that's a classic response).

She wouldn't commit to any of it.

Your requested expectations and boundaries, which seemed very civilly stated, are totally reasonable, conventional, expected in the wake of her affair. She’s way out of line for someone seriously in pursuit of R. Ideally, she should have proactively offered this to you as part of her proposal for R. Is she reading up on how to reconcile a marriage after R? Has she started doing any of the work and research? Even if R of the marriage has not been offered by you, if she was adequately remorseful, she should still be interested in reconciling with herself for what she has done.

As others have mentioned, you seem to be deploying a very soft and perhaps confusing form of The 180 enabling rug sweeping.

Both of you will be very strongly compelled to return to "normal" at all costs and as quickly as possible. "Normal" feels REALLY good. Those fleeting moments of "normalcy", the pre-affair good ole days, are intoxicating and will lead you down the slippery slope of rug sweeping.

Hi Bob, I am glad you are reading members' comments so carefully and responding so thoughtfully. Someone above recommended the Linda McDonald book to you: "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair." Please read it IMMEDIATELY (it is short) and mark it up and give it to your WS to wake him up.

My WS repeatedly tried to sweep his affair under the rug and just behave in an ordinary family fashion. Like you, I knew that was just setting the stage for a future affair, and greatly increased my resentment. When I found that book, it was a wake-up call for me, and I knew it would be for him also. I gave him 48 hours to read it and come sit down with me to talk about it. At first he just let the book sit on his night-stand, but I told him this was non-negotiable and had to be his top priority or I would know he did not value the marriage. He read it and immediately started showing me the actions of a "Re-builder" and gave me full transparency and talked with me about everything as much as I needed. But I think he would have remained in "rug-sweeping" mode otherwise - he needed that kick in the pants in a voice other than mine.

Try it; it may work for you too.

Best,
Odonna

She wouldn't commit to any of it.

Then no deal, she is not committed to helping you heal or saving the M. She broke the trust, if she’s not willing to re-establish it, then there is nothing to work with. Remember YOU RUN THIS NOW, your conditions or boundaries are non negotiable, stop dabbling with the 180 and shock her system.

Again not being critical, I want to save you from false R, ask me how I know.

This is going to sound really harsh towards your wife so I apologize in advance.

BTW FBH here.

In a lot of cases the WS needs to hit rock bottom before that can begin the real heavy work or trying to figure out how their life ended up at it's lowest. Hence doing nothing becomes more painful doing some introspection and take accountability for the hundreds of choices that led to Dday.

180 is talk is about kids or finances that is it. Any attempts to engage you are met with one word answers and avoid any long conversations. You get stronger my meeting your own needs fully at the expense of meeting your Wws. You need to feel safe, believe people you trust (not your wife). It is usually a good idea to see an IC (Not the same one your Ww is seeing).

When my Dday happened I was horribly co-depedent and I get the impression a lot of your intial reactions are about your co-dependent thinking. Sadly like a lot of BS I think you've adopted the notion that you have to lose yourself to be one half of a couple. It is not fair now and it wasn't fair then either.

I can tell you the 180 works if you stick to it, but the hyper focus is on you and your daughter. Your Ww lost the right to be a trusted confidant who always has your best interest at heart.

Use the 180 to work on youself to mourn what you've lost and realize what you had is never com8ng back. You need to be indifferent to the outcome of your old M and who your Ww is now. She has more that enough work to do on herself and it will take years even if she dived in with both feet. Really think about if you are willing to wait for you wife to re-invent herself of the W you deserve. She needs to see what single life would really look like plus she may finally notice the myriad of her needs you've been meeting and not take you for granted.

I R'd so I know it is possible, but for ever story like mine there are many more that ended in divorce.

It is ok to understand your worth and advocate like someone who believes that they deserve faithful and loving spouse.

Keep reading and posting.

Thanks, Fareast.

Yeah, Abalone, I'm aware that I'm failing at the 180 at times. Dinner together was more about us sitting as a family with my daughter than about her and I. I'm not going to take that away from my daughter so I don't consider that failing at the 180. But yeah, I shouldn't have let myself get sucked into normal conversation with her so easily.

RealityBlows, I'm going to try to do better at the 180. Honestly, right now that's all I can do.

Odonna, thank you for seconding the recommendation. I've ordered a physical copy of the book so that I can mark it up. I'll read it this weekend after it arrives and give it to my wife next week.

Tanner, you and everyone else are telling me about my dogshit 180 I'm going to get better at it.

Numb&Dumb, I'm going to reduce my contact with her to just the kid, house, and finances. I'm sure I'll slip up again but between you guys and how poorly she received my proposed conditions for NC, transparency, and the difference between remorse and regret the 180 is going to be my focus because the chances for R are looking sickly.

---

She has said earlier today of my conditions for moving forward, "I'm tired of never being enough for those I love." She then proceeded to take these conditions as proof that I lacked unconditional love for her. I told her that's ridiculous, unconditional love is what makes it possible that I'm the one to be pushing for reconciliation. These aren't conditions for my love, they're conditions to make me feel safe.

I got back "Can I think about it"

It's so fucking ridiculous.

---

I have a couple questions

1. My pre-teen daughter has been having mental health issues of her own this year. Depression, anxiety, some self-harm. She sees a therapist weekly. I wanted to tell the therapist about the affair and about how messed up our marriage was so that he would have all the facts to assist in treatment. My wife had initially agreed to do this but today said she doesn't want to, that she can't take the emotional toll. I think that's incredibly selfish and I'm pissed but I'm also willing to let it sit for a week before I take unilateral action unless you guys think it should be done more emergently.

2. I'm having trouble finding IC that I can get sooner rather than later. I have an appointment at the end of the month and I made a couple calls today to see if I could find something sooner but I wanted to know if anyone had found any telehealth providers or whatever that worked for them.

She has said earlier today of my conditions for moving forward, "I'm tired of never being enough for those I love." She then proceeded to take these conditions as proof that I lacked unconditional love for her.

Good comeback to that Horseshit-Bob! Don’t put up with her little self pity party. She’s DARVO-ing you. Assuming the victim role-classic! So classic it’s on page three paragraph two of the Cheater’s Playbook.

"Unconditional Love". Her love for you was obviously conditional when she cheated on you. Her love for her traumatized kids is obviously conditional when she requested you not tell their therapist about a crucial cofactor affecting their mental health, her affair. Wow, the hypocrisy.

It’s so hard to just sit there and watch your WS flail and just f-it up. You want them, so badly, to show remorse, to fight for the marriage, that it’s hard to resist leading them by the nose. It’s ok to gently guide her by giving her the feedback every WS needs to self correct and continuously improve, to express your needs BUT…be careful not to lead her by the nose. If she really wants this, she’ll fight for it. She’ll be proactive. She’ll not hesitate to make the necessary sacrifices. She won’t question the necessity of those sacrifices. She’ll put yours and the kid’s needs before her own.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 10:07 PM, Thursday, April 20th]

She then proceeded to take these conditions as proof that I lacked unconditional love for her.

Unconditional love is something we feel for our babies. It doesn't apply to adult human relationships. If someone is awful enough to you, you will eventually STOP loving them. Sometimes it takes a while for us to realize how toxic a relationship has become, but that doesn't make it "unconditional". What I'm hearing in this complaint is ENTITLEMENT. She figures you're her husband and it's YOUR JOB to love her no matter what she does. It's just too bad she couldn't seem to remember the "you're her husband" part while she was messing around with the AP. Kind of a selective awareness on her part, wouldn't you say?

Your response was good, but you do have a right to be pissed off at the effrontery of her complaint. It's actually flabbergasting under the circumstances.

My pre-teen daughter has been having mental health issues of her own this year. Depression, anxiety, some self-harm. She sees a therapist weekly. I wanted to tell the therapist about the affair and about how messed up our marriage was so that he would have all the facts to assist in treatment.

Your WW didn't ask for your input before she decided to have an affair, did she? She didn't have a problem with a lack of marital consensus on that' And it's not like what you're suggesting here isn't CLEARLY IN THE BEST INTEREST of your daughter. So, you know what? I'd just go do it. Parental consensus is a good thing to have, but when a parent is selfishly putting their own interests ahead of their kid... gloves are off.

I know you're very motivated toward R. That's okay. We get that. I'm in R myself. You do want to consider what kind of marriage you're hoping to save though. If it's one where your WW continues to be completely egocentric like you're some kind of satellite orbiting her wondrousness, that's not going to be a very nice place to be in the long haul. Once the shock wears off, we end up with all this betrayal to process, and that means various stages of grief, including substantial anger for most of us. Early in the JFO stage, we're often so caught up in the emergency of it all that we're not ready for all that and it comes as a bit of a surprise when all those painful feelings and triggers arrive.

Your best shot at a real and meaningful reconciliation is probably going to be that you have it on YOUR terms, not on hers. Her world view is screwed up enough to include adultery as an option. That pretty much disqualifies her from being the marriage expert, doesn't it? Trust your own judgment and don't be afraid to stand up for what you feel is right. If you have to act like Monty Hall and play a game of Let's Make a Deal to get through R, you're going to end up with the donkey door prize (read unreformed and unrepentant cheater).

She has said earlier today of my conditions for moving forward, "I'm tired of never being enough for those I love." She then proceeded to take these conditions as proof that I lacked unconditional love for her.

Aw yes, the pity party, poor her. Then she turns around and makes you the bad guy (DARVO101). This is right out of the "cheaters handbook".

Stay the course and don’t get sucked into her manipulation vortex, she has had time to prepare for this, while it’s all new to you. I’m glad you are sticking around here and reclaiming your life.

How is it that we have acronyms and initialisms for every other bloody thing but not one for "thanks everyone for all your support?" I feel like I start every post with some variation on that. So TEFAYS, y'all.

It's bonkers how much easier it is to 180 when your WS does some shit like this. Since her "unconditional love" fuckery I've been doing great at it. I told her that we didn't have to tell our daughter's therapist tonight but we were absolutely telling him something before their next session. She could tell me what she was comfortable saying. Truthfully, I don't care what she's comfortable saying. If she's not comfortable talking about the affair I can text the therapist myself. I'm not protecting her feelings to the detriment of our daughter but I don't have a problem with her thinking I do.

I'm really glad I found you folks. The hypocrisy of her "unconditional love" statement never even occurred to me but everyone here spotted it right away. I need this perspective badly, both the hopefulness of a pro-reconcilliation group and the hard truths where I'm failing in this process.

Take a hug, a manly one armed hug, or a high five. Your choice. Shit, take all three. I'm not running out.

Yeah, unconditional love is ONLY for our children. My WH said something just as stupid and DARVO-y. These cheaters and their entitlement... sheesh!

I'm three years into R, on the path I have chosen. Much of it informed by advice here.

Some people are better at recommitting after R. I'm not committed for life, and my wife knows that. Even in R and being married, that's where we stand and will continue to stand for the foreseeable future.

We recently had a short interaction where she said something like "I want to get old and saggy with you" and I said "We'll see". She knew what that meant and she decided to dig in a bit. It wasn't a highly emotional conversation, but she basically said something like, "I don't like that you say you'll never leave me anymore" and I say, "Well you know why that is, but I can promise you what I have before which is that if I choose to leave you, by the time that I do, it won't be a surprise." Not those exact sentences, but that sentiment in a back and forth dialog.

If you want to pursue R, I'm not petitioning against it here. Just know that there will be permanent damage.

I do want to talk about the "treat me like a child" line that is so common.

The answer I think I gave once was "I'm treating you like a selfish, irresponsible teenager because you are behaving like a selfish, irresponsible teenager".

It's bonkers how much easier it is to 180 when your WS does some shit like this. Since her "unconditional love" fuckery

When you get in touch with your anger it flow naturally 🤣

I was being jerked around in false R with all the same shit you are describing. I was damn pissed off and it was over. She started the water works and I told her "tell it to the lawyer". Yes we are in a good R, but it required her pulling her own head out of her ass.

We may come off as harsh at times, but really it’s just all of us saying "oh hell no!!!!"

Not sure if anyone has told you this but the three things that helped me most were:

Be willing to lose the M to save it

Let go of the outcome

Take what you need and leave the rest

TEFAYS!

This0is0Fine, I'm absolutely using that line about acting like a teenager. It's absolutely right on every level.

The WS appears to thrive on all the things that make us cringe at our own memories of being a teenager. The difficulty accurately reflecting on our actions, inability to appropriately express emotion, the risk taking and thrill seeking behaviors. My teenage self would think I'm an absolute bore but I think he was an insecure little shit who was as desperate for affection as he was bad at receiving it.

Tanner, I've taken your three tips and saved them off separately where I can read them daily along with the 180. You're a part of my daily affirmation now.

She then proceeded to take these conditions as proof that I lacked unconditional love for her.

That's a ludicrous statement. A classic example of the straw man fallacy. One of the basic rhetorical fallacies any undergrad studies in his/her rhetoric 101 class at university.

Under some versions of religion, a deity (i.e. God) has unconditional love. We humans impute this construct to a deity because of the reality that no human has unconditional love. Period. Nor should he.

Consider a hypothetical where your wife woke up one day and decided that, each morning, she would slip out of bed early before you woke up, get a hammer, and then smash you in the kneecap as hard as she could with the hammer. When you asked her why, she said that she found it fun and she enjoyed the startled look of pain and suffering in your eyes. You'd quickly reach a point where your love for her was conditioned upon her no longer choosing to do that.

An extreme example, but it illustrates my point: all human love has conditions. In most cases they are unspoken. We don't fall in love with everybody. We fall in love with a specific individual, based on our perception of that individuals personality, moral structure, likes/dislikes, appearance, and mental acuity, among other things. The overall structure of them as a human.

What happens with infidelity is that our paradigm shifts. The human we thought we loved didn't actually exist. Isn't real. Instead, the human we thought we loved is the kind of person who will decide to lie to us for the specific purpose of cheating with another man. Most of us would not love a person who would choose to do that.

R works by falling back in love. But not with the person who cheated. R works when the person who cheated figures out what was broken in her moral compass and fixes it. Makes herself into somebody new. Somebody different than who she was. Somebody who is worthy of loving.

"Hell yeah, my love is conditional. My love has never been and never will be unconditional. Get that bullshit out of your head. If that's what you want, go buy a dog (though, in fairness, even a dog, if beaten enough, will stop loving -- that is, even a dog's love is conditional).

"Therefore, if you want my love, you need to meet my conditions. If you don't want to meet my conditions, I have my answer: you don't want my love. Period."

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:57 PM, Friday, April 21st]

I'm absolutely using that line about acting like a teenager. It's absolutely right on every level.

You won't be using that line because you will be doing the 180 and avoiding any conversation about

your relationship, feelings, etc.

[This message edited by Gutpunch at 2:23 PM, Friday, April 21st]