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Hey Soapt, just in case the last bit got lost in my last post, THIS:

A man who has no qualms coercing his wife to fuck 3 random strangers in one day will have no qualm moving on to physical abuse when extremely provoked. I am afraid for your safety when he finds out you are getting counseling and posting on this board. Let alone when you make known ANY desire for separation or divorce. These situations/revelations will be EXTREMELY PROVOKING.

Basically, he wants to keep you under his thumb and blind to his abuse of you so HE doesn't have to face HIS SHAME. Until he's open to facing his shame, taking responsibility for his actions and accepting the hurt he's done you, you don't have someone you can have a marriage with.

I decided to try one more time with this so I pleaded for MC with him. We were already talking about changing things so we can have a better relationship. Here is how the conversation went:

Me: How about marriage counseling?

Him: Ok

Me: Really? But I'll talk about sex

Him: Then no

Me: "Why??! Why why why? That is our whole fucking issue. I cannot heal if you don't face your shame, or me with my own. And I doubt you can heal either. There's no way

Him: I see

Me: I feel hopeless. We are doomed

Him: Ok, if that's what I have to do to love you then ok

Me: Ok wonderful, I can't believe that. I know it's uncomfortable. On a scale of 1-10 what is the scale of fear of someone hearing about our problems?

Him: 100

Me: Why though? Don't you want to grow and heal and find out what happened inside us that guided our decisions?

Him: We can talk about you cheating and choosing other guys over me buuuuut I'd really rather not talk about the early stuff.

Me: Ok

It was kind of a test to see how much of his recent treatment is real change. For a second there I was like "Okay, he actually is open to look within himself to actually love me!" Aaaand he failed. This makes me deeply sad.

What was it you shared? I can see his upset as coming from a genuine place. However, the "jumping out of the car" thing is a method of manipulation.

I shared something with him that I discussed in counseling but I do not remember what it was (it was in 2018 that I went). He has overreacted in this way another time last year.

Basically makes it impossible for you to share anything relating to your pain without him killing himself... again, more shame, control and complete shut down of emotional intimacy.

This is 100% accurate and I feel it.

When he finds out about your counseling, what kinds of things is he going to do to you?

He will freak the fuck out, have a panic attack, act like he is suicidal, feel betrayed, and ask me billions of questions. He won't harm me or make me fuck any men from that. But to him it's like cheating. Serious betrayal.

What I'm seeing here is a TON of co-dependency. Posters tend to hate the term, but I think it really does apply here. He is DEPENDENT on you to keep his fragile sense of self secure and safe. He CONTROLS you because he can't control HIMSELF. You accept and ENABLE this behavior because you feel a RESPONSIBILITY toward him for his wellbeing. You are NOT responsible for his sense of self worth and security in his manhood.

Yes, I can agree he is. And I do feel responsible, definitely. I can work on getting out of that mindset.

Another thing that went down this week was he decided he can't get over me wanting other guys or remembering good things about them. So he said if I just get it out of my system with SC, eventually get sick of him, then he will be convinced that I'm done of my own accord. We tried that before and it did not work. But in the moment I agreed. Because I'm addicted too and I can't say NO to my husband or really anyone! The next day he said he didn't want to hear any details, he didn't want me to talk about it with him, but to still record the activity. I told my husband I made plans to go see SC to see how he felt, and the next day I told him I changed my mind and that I don't want to ever (today). After a few questions to be sure I meant it, he said "Ok then, this is good for us. Let's keep saying and doing things that are good for us." That's when I brought up counseling.

A man who has no qualms coercing his wife to fuck 3 random strangers in one day will have no qualm moving on to physical abuse when extremely provoked. I am afraid for your safety when he finds out you are getting counseling and posting on this board. Let alone when you make known ANY desire for separation or divorce. These situations/revelations will be EXTREMELY PROVOKING.

I agree it is provoking, but I do not believe it will get physical. If he didn't beat the shit out of me after "D-day", it won't happen now. Something I didn't mention is that his ex-wife was abusive and screamed at and hit/punched him frequently (I have heard the audio recordings). You might think I'm naive but I can confidently say the most he will do if he finds out about counseling or this or that I am heavily considering divorce is harm himself.

I'm sure you are all somewhat tired of hearing me bargaining to keep it together because clearly I should just run. Sorry if that is the case, it's just that this is a big deal. The biggest decision ever. I just want to get my thoughts out and get as much guidance as possible. I appreciate it all very much!

[This message edited by soapt at 9:38 PM, Tuesday, February 22nd]

I wouldn’t say you’re screwed if you try to remarry in the future. I jumped ship with her because her trauma was manifesting itself through psychosomatic issues (namely her "workplace injury" for which she had no scars or other obvious impairments). I think she clung to this belief because the reality of what he actually put her through was too much for her to handle. She was also not working, and you could tell she was barely holding herself together. I just wasn’t willing to get into a relationship with someone who needed to be taken care of.

to still record the activity.

Are you recording your sexual activity with these other men,for your husband to view?

Do these men know they're being recorded?

Are you recording your sexual activity with these other men,for your husband to view?

Do these men know they're being recorded?

Yes that was the arrangement and yes they all knew. But they all thought that I was just cheating and that it was my kink.

[This message edited by soapt at 2:15 AM, Wednesday, February 23rd]

My counselor canceled today.

I'll post an update after my next appointment which isn't until next Wednesday. On a brighter note I was able to find out that my insurance will allow multiple counseling sessions in one week, as long as they are on different days. So I have scheduled one for next Thursday as well, and two per week thereafter.

Unless someone has anything else helpful or convicting to say (which I welcome) I will probably wait to post more until next week. I've become obsessed with this forum and I should take what I've learned so far and simply reflect on it for a bit.

Thanks again!

Oh no! Hang in there! Good for you getting 2 in for next week. There's weeks where I can use more than one session for sure...

Wanted to leave you some encouragement that you're off on a good start in this journey. Digest away!

For a second there I was like "Okay, he actually is open to look within himself to actually love me!" Aaaand he failed.

soapt, IMO, in order to have a healthy M, both partners should be healthy. So, reading the quote above, I would paraphrase that it would be a great step if your H "is open to look within himself to actually love HIMSELF (in a good, fulfilling, and positive way)". Only then he would be able to really love YOU - care for you and respect you. The same goes the opposite way. Looks like you started working on your healing, and you should be proud of taking this step! Your H may be able to become aware that he needs the healing too...

Good Luck on your journey!

[This message edited by TruthIsPower at 6:21 PM, Thursday, February 24th]

Hate to rain on your parade, but I see this agreement to MC a bit differently. I see him as him "punching his MC card" as a way to continue to control you or end the discussions about the state of your relationship. This way, he can say he "tried" but it didn't work. You won't believe how many people who actually don't want to work on themselves do this. Their rationale is that MC will get the other partner to change so they won't have to.

If the above is the case, you have nothing to work with in MC. One partner can't be vulnerable and truthful and own their behaviors while the other partner stonewalls, is untruthful (either in word or by omission) or, worse yet, uses the information that is divulged in MC as a weapon against their partner. Lived this, and would never do this again.

My fear is that he is merely giving lip service to all of this.

And his thoughts that you need to get back together for a sexual relationship with someone else? Seriously?

This man has huge issues within himself that he has to confront and deal with ON HIS OWN before he can be a safe partner for anyone. I wish you could see how twisted and bitter his thinking is and how he feels that humiliating YOU is good for HIM.

He's likely not serious about change. I wish you could see that as well.

Personally, I'd end this farce, stay in counseling, work on myself and remember that my child is watching and model the behavior you want her to emulate. That's the safest and best thing for everyone in this scenario.

Cat

if your H "is open to look within himself to actually love HIMSELF (in a good, fulfilling, and positive way)". Only then he would be able to really love YOU - care for you and respect you.

Agreed!

One partner can't be vulnerable and truthful and own their behaviors while the other partner stonewalls, is untruthful (either in word or by omission)

This is what I feel is going on. He prefers to be blind to his past pain and any specific pain he's inflicted on me. Instead he is insulted that I said I do not feel my heart is safe (in the context of my emotions/psyche and being vulnerable) and that I don't feel very protected by him. He literally says I have insulted him, and to him it feels almost as bad as my cheating. When he "apologizes" it is very general, or he says it after I tell him how he's hurt me (if I tell him). So it's like a reflexive apology. I admit I have done this too, so we can both change there. But man it feels like we're going nowhere. When he agreed to MC as long as we ONLY talk about what I have done...that was seriously huge to me. From that alone I feel we won't make it.

Anyway, thanks everyone for continuing to care and share your words of wisdom, or even your kind words. I always read them even if I don't respond!

You have said you've enjoyed having sex with other men. A few you even made into your "boyfriend." Have you ever told him you don't want to do this? Have you ever told him how it makes you feel? Have you ever told him no?

You have said you've enjoyed having sex with other men. A few you even made into your "boyfriend." Have you ever told him you don't want to do this? Have you ever told him how it makes you feel? Have you ever told him no?

Prior to the "boyfriend" from 2017-2018 yes, I would tell my husband how it made me feel and that I would like to just have plain old vanilla sex with him once in awhile. I would say I felt like he only found me hot or interesting if I was with another guy, and that he didn't want me for me. Sometimes I would come to him with tears in my eyes (one specific time was when I was pregnant with his child and he found a married man with a pregnancy fetish to talk to me). This was the cycle. He would sit there and listen but I don't remember him even saying anything or comforting me in any way. He seemed to just act disappointed, annoyed, or sorry for himself, like he knew it was self-sabotage. I think he didn't know how to deal with it, so we wouldn't talk or fantasize about it for like a month, until one of us brought it up again. If it was me bringing it up, it was because nothing else I was doing sexually was getting him excited. I don't know the actual reason if he was the one to bring it up other than him being bored and simply just because that's how he liked/s being stimulated. He would also get upset (not mad, but frustrated or let down) if I agreed to get with a new guy but never followed through with it. We would have good nasty sex if I was acting really into the fantasy. I also can only remember a handful of times where I feel we "made love." All the rest was just fucking.

And post 2017-2018 boyfriend, it has gone like this... I'm going to repeat a few things I've already mentioned but it's necessary here:

If it sounds confusing, it's because I am confused, and have been for 10+ years. So, we fight about the affair, he gets mad and tells me to go fuck some guy or a whole bunch of them so I forget about my AP or whatever reason. I tell him I'll do it, but I know that I won't, and I just don't look for any, and then I get in trouble for not trying. This goes on until he inevitably gets raging mad and gives me an ultimatum, which is where SC came into play. The night I found SC, it was because if I didn't find someone to fuck that night, I'd be a single woman by morning. And I was to maintain that relationship. I did, begrudgingly. I acted like I was into it so he would just finally move on from AP. Sometimes SC would message me on snapchat and I would leave it unread, and hope my BH wouldn't notice. The only time my husband would have sex with me was if I was acting really aroused, and talking about SC or other guys. And by sex, I mean that BH would only finish inside me. He would not do the whole routine and have actual sex. Eventually, I began to like SC and the attention and actual sex I was getting from him. It's the same pattern as before the affair, only it got way more mean and disgusting after.

And then there's AG, who entered in January. He was brand new, I met him once and we got along well and it appeared to BH that I was into him, which was true. He was still alright with it as long as I included him in my activities in some way (without AG knowing that he knew). Then the 2nd time I saw AG, BH got jealous because I spent too long with AG without checking in with BH. Naturally, any husband would be jealous. That's normal and understandable for any relationship! Given his fetish, I hardly think I deserved the treatment I got from it and I am having a very difficult time forgiving him and letting it go. Especially because he refuses to admit that what he's put on me psychologically even exists. To him, I cheated just like every wayward spouse. I cheated. That's it, end of story, nothing else is a factor whatsoever. To me, I don't think I would have cheated, ever, if it weren't for this fetish of his. I'm not saying what I did was acceptable, I absolutely made the worst decision possible. I'm just saying that I think I would have remained faithful, if my beloved husband never fantasized about me with strangers. I know no one can know what could have been, but I feel like I'm right.

Also BH has said a few times in the past that he gets a pass for anything he says to me or does because I am the one who cheated. Basically I can't complain until I have made up for cheating. His attitude has changed a little since that one night I told him a whole mess of feelings.

And now, sex means pretty much nothing to me. It will take me a long time to have a healthy view on sex.

Anyway, maybe that clears up some confusion or maybe that confused you even more. I really have a hard time understanding everything that has happened so I apologize if I'm all over the place.

[This message edited by soapt at 11:45 PM, Monday, February 28th]

Basically I can't complain until I have made up for cheating.

You know you will never be able to do this. Never. He won't allow it. He is using your cheating to justify treating you like this.

BH has said that he gets a pass for anything he says to me or does because I am the one who

This will never change. He enjoys controlling and abusing you.

As long as you are with him,your life will never be better. Your child will grow up,and she will find a man just like her father,and will allow him to abuse her,because she thinks this is normal.

This will never change. He enjoys controlling and abusing you.

I know why you say this, but I don't think he enjoys it. I think it is more like he despises not being in control. Which has just about the same effect on me, but I think there may still be a difference in how he is motivated.

He hates himself too, which is why he is so insulted by me saying that I don't feel like he protects me. He hated hearing that because underneath all the bullshit he absolutely wants to be my hero. And that is why he won't go to counseling. He knows he fucked up but he's too ashamed to come to terms with any of it. He can't see past his shame and guilt.

As long as you are with him,your life will never be better. Your child will grow up,and she will find a man just like her father,and will allow him to abuse her,because she thinks this is normal.

My greatest fear right now. This single decision I have to make...and soon...will affect her life forever.

Hi, BS here. I read your post and I felt I just had to reply.

So, to sum up our complex situation...my husband and I got together when I was 18 (he was divorced and 27), he essentially manipulated me into having multiple extramarital partners until I had had enough of the control

I noticed that you were only 18 when you started your relationship. Is it possible he liked you because you didn't have a lot of experience with relationships? Sounds like there was an unequal balance of control in your relationship. Manipulating a person into sex, is not a normal loving relationship. This sounds like abuse. Intimate (spouse) sexual abuse exists.... I know because that's what happened with my exwh.

He would also seem to get amnesia whenever I brought up his past s**ual addictions (the ones involving me).

That's called gaslighting.

In January 2020, BS wanted me to find a man to sleep with to "erase" the boyfriend from my mind and body. In fact it was demanded of me, or I'd be a single woman by the next morning.

He demanded it of you and threatened you... that's abuse. Your relationship with your BH does not sound healthy. He has you doing things that you do not want to do. He controls you. He is afraid of you going to counseling because he doesn't want you to learn that the relationship, and him, is unhealthy.

You say that he is loving and caring to his and your daughter yet he treats you poorly. Children see more than we are aware. They learn what relationships should be like based on what they see of their parents' relationship. Please take care of yourself.

I rarely say this, but you need to get the hell out of there as fast as you possibly can. Your H is radioactive.

Control. Shaming. Gaslighting. Sexual abuse. Human trafficking. YOU WERE PIMPED OUT FOR HIS SEXUAL KINKS.

Have you heard of the member LadyG? Her husband was a raging abusive narcissist. His favorite abuse of choice was physical violence toward her. He would put on a show of remorse and crocodile tears to manipulate her into staying. Truly though, he was a narcissist and narcissists are only upset with themselves when they get called out. Please read her posts and replace the physical abuse with sexual abuse. The emotional abuse you're experiencing is very similar to what she went through. You can search for her posts in the members tab.

I know why you say this, but I don't think he enjoys it. I think it is more like he despises not being in control. Which has just about the same effect on me, but I think there may still be a difference in how he is motivated.

He abuses you. Who the fuck cares about his motivations? His motivations aren't going to change until HE decides to change them. Since "he despises not being in control" do you think he's going to SUBMIT himself to IC anytime soon? He would lose control of the narrative and therefore have to face himself. This is why:

he won't go to counseling. He knows he fucked up but he's too ashamed to come to terms with any of it.

underneath all the bullshit he absolutely wants to be my hero

Ask yourself, is this why you're still holding on? The hope that this broken man will triumph over his demons and become your hero? Your life is NOT A MARVEL MOVIE.

Why are you giving over the control in your life to a man who can't even control himself?

You know in your heart you need to leave. You don't have to start the D process, but you do need to S right away. Listen to yourself. You know in your heart that this man is not safe. Trust your gut and follow it.

Your daughter's very life is on the line.

whoops double post

[This message edited by MIgander at 2:18 PM, Tuesday, March 1st]

I don't think he enjoys it. I think it is more like he despises not being in control

Ok..so the opposite of despising not being in control,means he loves being in control.

He loves being in control of you.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:59 PM, Tuesday, March 1st]

This single decision I have to make...and soon...will affect her life forever.

Right now you ARE making a decision. You are keeping her in an EXTREMELY abusive environment. Right now,you are teaching her it's ok to be abused by a man who says he loves you.

The only decision you have to make,is whether or not to keep her in a home where her father is extremely abusive,and whether you want her to be safe.

This man is not your hero. He will never be your hero. YOU need to be your own hero. YOU need to be your daughter's hero. You need to save her,and yourself.

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:08 PM, Tuesday, March 1st]