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I am glad you are where you are at Mr Fibble. I have long been convinced that a course of attempted reconciliation would have been a path to another DDay for you. If I recall correctly there was some questions around her approach to the poly and that one response was inconclusive. But based on the entirety of what you shared here I think there's at least one more bell ringer in your STBXW bag of deceits.

I got one more question. Now that your stbxw has moved out, do you think your stbxw will be able to resist the OM attempts to reconnect?

I doubt she will respond to him ever again. That good guy bubble bursted a long time ago. She has nothing nice to say about him. All his attempts were disclosed immediately and he was blocked. I bet he has half a dozen new conquest on a horizon so he's not that interested anymore.

GreatWideOpen I frankly don't think she would stray again. But those speculations are now pointless, aren't they?

I doubt she will respond to him ever again. That good guy bubble bursted a long time ago. She has nothing nice to say about him.

I wouldn't be too sure on this phrase. There are women who, despite know their exes were players or cheaters, still chose to get back on them because they had strong feelings.

I frankly don't think she would stray again. But those speculations are now pointless, aren't they?

Well, it's pointless to speculate now but consider the fact that she was able to hide two affairs right under your nose in a span of more than five years. Your STBXW is an excellent secret-keeper. Only the threat of a polygraph test were you able to know that she has been hiding two separate lives all along. In fact, whether you agree or not, if you hadn't discovered her affair they should still be going at it now.

Mr. F,

She definitely didn't stop when I started questioning her. I actually met him for the first time only few days after it became physical (he kissed her at work, in elevator). Most of the physical meetings hapenned during the period I was actively questioning her about him. I was of course deemed controlling and absurd.

Out of curiosity, did you question your WS about this behaviour? At face value, it smacks of cruelty. Did she revel in the fact that her BS met her AP, and did she escalate the physical contact because you were questioning her about it? To add to the thrill?

If that was so, she will really need to address this adrenaline junkie mindset with her IC, as it would not be safe mindset/behaviour for your children.

Agree with RR. It does smack of cruelty. It’s no wonder why, after careful consideration, he put D back in progress with R completely off the table. It was the gaslighting, and especially cruelty which did it.

As Mr F kept trying to engage his WW on his suspicions she went more covert and yet doubled down on the PA, which essentially went active during the time Mr F was trying to engage her on his concerns. That she called his concerns controlling and absurd lies at the heart of it.

Not only is his WW not safe but she is also cruel. 100 percent agree.

Mr F - in thinking about this, was that the purpose of your WW last ditch attempt to save the marriage during the weekend you went away? I.e her trying to address the cruelty aspect of her actions?

GreatWideOpen I frankly don't think she would stray again. But those speculations are now pointless, aren't they?

I didn't mean future, I meant her original transgressions. I believe she "beat" the polygraph. I just cannot see any reality where they get to the point of burner phones and secret meetups without more. When we get right down to the core of the matter, her AP was chasing orgasms. Somehow, some way she was providing them. Perhaps it was only through video chats, videos and pictures. That was the Best Case scenario, but her AP had her way outside her boundaries already. Her stop sign was gone. The additional D day would have been more discovery or confession.

I think the move to the divorce section should limit us collectively rehashing and playing "what if" with the past. This thread is already mostly people asking MrF directly for information freely available in the old thread.

MrF is here looking for support through a divorce with a remorseful, and likely to go down swinging, partner. Debating the likelihood she still has skeletons in her closet regarding the affair doesn’t help in that regard.

Kindern - I think there’s a couple of things at play here with the more detailed questions/rehashing. Of course, all my personal opinion:

First - I think A, in what for all intents and purposes occur in good marriages, especially by a WW, seems to be more disconcerting. It’s human nature which triggers a base reaction, especially from men/BH.

Second - In situations where the WS, especially a WW, appears to be extremely remorseful, and the BH still moves to D, also triggers this natural base reaction.

We’ve seen this detailed line of questioning in other cases, Mrs. Walloped coming to mind.

Sorry I had been gone, was busy, but I have a new job starting next month! The other candidate backed off so they called me in. Great opportunity, definitely a step up. I just need to dust off my German, but that's a challenge I look forward to.

Onto what was said here. First of all, thank you Kindern for understanding why I came here, to a separation/divorce section. Not that you all others are wrong, you are not, but I feel like going over everything over and over again does nothing else than it slows my healing. All these things you asked were already thoroughly examined and answered. What's the point of doing it again? would it change anything? Sincere question

But those things apparently intrigue you I will answer some of your questions

I wouldn't be too sure on this phrase. There are women who, despite know their exes were players or cheaters, still chose to get back on them because they had strong feelings.

Well, as I said this wasn't about feelings or love. The only love there was the love my wife felt for herself. For how he made her feel. He wasn't some kind of prince Charming on a white horse, coming to rescue her out of her miserable life. He was a tool. A tool to make her feel better about herself. She tried to cover it with a blanket of soulmates or whatever to make her fell better about herself (see the pattern), but that cover was blown off right after Dday. I can confidently say there is 0% chance she will even speak to him in a future. 0. She simply doesn't want to. Hope my stance on that is clear now.

Well, it's pointless to speculate now but consider the fact that she was able to hide two affairs right under your nose in a span of more than five years. Your STBXW is an excellent secret-keeper. Only the threat of a polygraph test were you able to know that she has been hiding two separate lives all along. In fact, whether you agree or not, if you hadn't discovered her affair they should still be going at it now.

Again, I don't consider the first an real A, more like a case of broken boundaries. We (me and my WW) spoke a lot about boundaries, and one kind of interesting fact came out and that is once a boundary is broken, it's very easy to repeat and move inside this new space. To kiss again for example. But to take it further, to break another, still existing boundary, that's completely different story. That's part of why they didn't go all the way. Maybe it has something to do with a person, their still present (even slightly) moral compas or whatever, or it's a universal truth. I didn't get more into this because it served it's purpose in my case and what difference would it make? But you are right, if I didn't kick off the lid, they would keep it alive. That she admits

Out of curiosity, did you question your WS about this behaviour? At face value, it smacks of cruelty. Did she revel in the fact that her BS met her AP, and did she escalate the physical contact because you were questioning her about it? To add to the thrill?

I did, obviously. Of course I did, because the level of disrespect left me speechless at the time. I remember I yelled and called her many nasty words during that time. She took it all. But she didn't revel in it, absolutely not. She was scared shitless that day. You should have seen them that day, it was so painfuly obvious. That was one of the biggest red flags I had. So no, it wasn't done in order to humiliate me and get off on it (I bet he did when I wasn't around, coward), but mere something that just happened. I just met her collegues, that's all. The fact that one of them kissed her just a few days before was a gem I had to dig out over next few months.

As Mr F kept trying to engage his WW on his suspicions she went more covert and yet doubled down on the PA, which essentially went active during the time Mr F was trying to engage her on his concerns. That she called his concerns controlling and absurd lies at the heart of it.

Selfish fog, nothing else. At that time, she didn't give a shit about me, she just didn't want me to interfere and take her "make-myself-feel-good" toy away from her. All that graduate PA was just a currency to keep him throwing her kibbles. Sick, I know, but it's true.

Mr F - in thinking about this, was that the purpose of your WW last ditch attempt to save the marriage during the weekend you went away? I.e her trying to address the cruelty aspect of her actions?

Oh I didn't give you a full report from that weekend? She offered me a 6 months separation with minimal contact, we both stay faithful and do some soul searching and in 6 months we meet and discuss where our heads are and if I still want divorce, we will file. I know this goes agains many things I posted here, but I should've had taken her offer and go with the separation. I actually should've gone with a separation two weeks after Dday. I can stress enough the importance of physical separation from your WS, especially if they are abusive or, like in my case, keen on making things work.

People, get that space! It will help you to see everything with a certain amount of clearance. It would save us a lot of long evenings of unproductive, tears filled nights. You will acomplish nothing when your heart overpowers your head.

I didn't mean future, I meant her original transgressions. I believe she "beat" the polygraph. I just cannot see any reality where they get to the point of burner phones and secret meetups without more. When we get right down to the core of the matter, her AP was chasing orgasms. Somehow, some way she was providing them. Perhaps it was only through video chats, videos and pictures. That was the Best Case scenario, but her AP had her way outside her boundaries already. Her stop sign was gone. The additional D day would have been more discovery or confession.

Most of this was adressed above. I have no idea how she would beat the polygraph. She was very open about everything before, had a blood test done the day of to make sure she didn't use any drughs, and the poly company was genuine, with many references. She asked me if I am happy with the result, othewise she will go someplace else and do it again. And let me tell you, going through a polygraph for cheating had to be probably one of the most humiliating experiences of her life. And I often catch myself not believing I put her through it. And I am not blameshifting myself here.

So again, thank you for your questins, but if they are unnecessary or useless for my healing and getting out of infidelity ruined marriage please try thing if it's really necessary to ask them. Also, many of them were already answered in my previous threads in JFO an General.

Thank you all for your concern,
mrF

Mr F - I think you made the right decision to D versus the deal your WW made about a 6 month separation with limited contact. I’m not sure what advantages that would have provided to you versus affording all of the advantages to your WW.

Sorry I had been gone, was busy, but I have a new job starting next month! The other candidate backed off so they called me in. Great opportunity, definitely a step up. I just need to dust off my German, but that's a challenge I look forward to.

Congratulations :)

Onto what was said here. First of all, thank you Kindern for understanding why I came here, to a separation/divorce section. Not that you all others are wrong, you are not, but I feel like going over everything over and over again does nothing else than it slows my healing. All these things you asked were already thoroughly examined and answered. What's the point of doing it again? would it change anything? Sincere question

For me, the point was regarding your belief that she would have eventually slept with him. At that time, based on my assumption that the car meeting was the last meet up, I still had lingering doubts that she would have and I just wanted to offer my thoughts. But, as I said earlier, it really doesn't matter. I did not mean to bring up any painful memories.

Again, I don't consider the first an real A, more like a case of broken boundaries. We (me and my WW) spoke a lot about boundaries, and one kind of interesting fact came out and that is once a boundary is broken, it's very easy to repeat and move inside this new space. To kiss again for example. But to take it further, to break another, still existing boundary, that's completely different story. That's part of why they didn't go all the way. Maybe it has something to do with a person, their still present (even slightly) moral compas or whatever, or it's a universal truth. I didn't get more into this because it served it's purpose in my case and what difference would it make? But you are right, if I didn't kick off the lid, they would keep it alive. That she admits

I no longer have those doubts and agree with your assessment.

And let me tell you, going through a polygraph for cheating had to be probably one of the most humiliating experiences of her life. And I often catch myself not believing I put her through it. And I am not blameshifting myself here.

Your instincts to "save" her from harm will eat away at you as long as you feel guilty for holding her to account for her lies and her betrayal. You need to become indifferent to her emotional states. You will always care about her as the mother of your children but you cannot allow her emotional states to impact you, even a little.

Selfish fog, nothing else. At that time, she didn't give a shit about me, she just didn't want me to interfere and take her "make-myself-feel-good" toy away from her. All that graduate PA was just a currency to keep him throwing her kibbles. Sick, I know, but it's true.

and

So again, thank you for your questins, but if they are unnecessary or useless for my healing and getting out of infidelity ruined marriage please try thing if it's really necessary to ask them. Also, many of them were already answered in my previous threads in JFO an General.

I think you should stop trying to convince yourself that she cares about you now, at least in the way you wish she would. Yes, in her narcissistic fantasy world she always wanted to be married to you but, in my opinion, not because she loves you at your core, but because she loves what you provided for her materially, emotionally, intellectually, and spirtually. It was always about her and still is.

Take a look at her "remorseful" actions. Pressuring you relentlessly to reconcile, knowing full well that was not what you wanted. Looking for any chink in the armor she could exploit, such as seducing you, to get what she wanted . She still is focused on getting what she wants. You, and any validation you give her, are her new "make-myself-feel-good" toy.

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 12:24 AM, Thursday, September 9th]

AnOminousMan, about that love/provide, U actually challenged her on this a few times, I believe the exact words were "Do you love me, or do you love what I provide for you?" eg money, house, kids.. Always adamant no. Even though I appreciate and acknowledge what you provide I love you for who you are. Again, not saying it's true, but she said it many times and never yielded when questioned.

She got a decent beating from me for trying to push me into stepping down from D. It took some time for me to put myself together, but when I did I let her have it. And everyone involved, no matter how they thought their intrusions were in service of a greater good. All that came from a place of desperation, and the less I was becoming compliant, the more desperately she was pushing, throwing my way everything and anything she could think of, no matter what I wanted or what was best for me. Selfish side was ar the wheel during that time and would be still if I didn't stand up for myself. Her self-controlling mechanism were practically nonexistent at that point.

We also spoke, at length, about that validation you speak about at the bottom of your post. I made it clear that it's something she needs to work on herself and it's not anybody's responsibility to keep her happy. That's her job, and if she fails to properly adress it, every future relationship is doomed to fail, because noone is able to fullfill her needs the way her selfish self feels is appropriate. But that's something she needs to work on with her IC

That's her job, and if she fails to properly address it, every future relationship is doomed to fail, because noone is able to fulfill her needs the way her selfish self feels is appropriate.

That is so true. If she doesn't work on herself then your story will repeat itself when she decides to pursue another relationship with anyone in the future.

Firstly, congratulations on landing the new job!

Next, thanks for answering my question. It was asked, because if she had that negative trait, she would have been unsafe for you and your children, as you will have to interact with her for a long time more.

So, to address your question in this topic.

Communication.

That is a fundamental ingredient if you want to have an amicable working relationship with your XWS. It is like working with colleagues, there must be mutual understanding of what you want to achieve, and in your case, it is to parent your kids in a consistent manner. You and your XWS will have to communicate with each other on the values to be imprinted on your kids. To make sure that both you and your XWS are aligned.

As with colleagues, you do not delve too deeply into your person lives (a little bit different in your case, but I think you get the idea), and keep conversations focused. In effect, it is pretty much doing a 180, but for a protracted amount of time.

Your duty now is to yourself, and your children, and it would be best to keep it that way. Your level of concern for your XWS would be that she is still the mother to your children, and as such, it is in their best interests that she does not do anything foolish that could impact your kids.

Just make sure that your XWS is dealing with her demons, so that she can make herself safe for your kids. If she becomes safe for you, then it is a bonus, but it does not really matter, as you are not in a frame of mind that you will get back with her anytime soon.

You continue to work on yourself.

Thank you, I will keep that in mind.

Got a ton of pictures from STBXW, she took girls to a theme park. I don't know if I should tell her to not send me anything, I send her pictures too of what we have done, but at this point it just makes things harder, at least for me.

She also asked me if we can meet in person, because she wants to go over something regarding the impending divorce. Told her to contact our lawyer, because I don't understand it either. Then she moved to meeting to discuss school/pre-school. Basicaly just a pretence to see me in person I guess. Other than bringing girls in and out we had a very minimal contact in person but we text everyday. Should I meet her to see what she really wants?

[This message edited by MrFlibble at 6:26 PM, Tuesday, September 14th]

MrFlibble,

Since you have kids you can't go complete NC. You should only be speaking to her about legal matters related to the divorce OR the kids. Since she has an issue related to schooling/daycare, you should probably meet. However, on the likely chance this is an excuse to discuss other matters, just maintain your boundaries and keep any discussion focused solely on schooling/daycare.

Should I meet her to see what she really wants?

No. Most things can and should be handled with text/email. Maybe voice call for something that needs real time interactions, but I'd even question that. Getting one on one time with you in person is one of perks of being married. Its not good for you clarity to allow it. I suspect the real reason is another last ditch effort.

Other than bringing girls in and out we had a very minimal contact in person but we text everyday. Should I meet her to see what she really wants?

Depends entirely on your comfort. Do you want to open yourself up to one or more of the following:

- A pity party about how awful things are now that you're separated
- Talk of your marriage
- Pleas to get back together
- Seeing her dressed to the nines/wearing your favorite clothes
- A whole bunch of personal stuff not related to D/school

If you're fine sitting through an awkward hour to answer a couple of questions that could have been done over text, who's to tell you not to go? But if you'd walk away from this feeling uncomfortable or with a bad taste in your mouth that you were brought there to fulfill some other agenda of hers, then don't bother. It's not worth it. It's just more drama.

Well...although your line in the sand has always been divorce, and unless something horrific happens, this will occur. You two still have unresolved feelings for each other. We realize she definitely does, and you appear to as well.

So...until the divorce is finalized, try and keep a certain 'professional' approach with her. If you can be confident that you both are able to do this then meet with her. Set boundaries for the meeting. After the divorce, you can explore whatever feelings you have as and if desired.