SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I was going to make a similar comment about intent; I can't think of any other area where it is given as much weight as infidelity. And importantly, we can't ever know another person's intent for certain.

I know from admission from her own mouth that she knew for a fact that this was always a redline for me. She knew I would never marry her if I knew. She knew I would not have children with her and that is the exact reason she did not tell me. That is intent by her own admission. I feel "rapist" has a popular preconception that it is a forced physical action and the classic rapist type masked man is in our minds for this.

Webster definition: sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of - mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception

Notice the last word, deception. I am not trying to make anyone uncomfortable or triggered, and I believe anyone can feel what was done to them in any term possible. The uncomfortable truth is, it meets the definition to a tee.

I think if my spouse came to me and compared me to a rapist, both of us having been victims of SA, then that would potentially signal that this marriage wasn't going to work out. I struggle to see how I could be married to someone who thinks of me as equivalent to a rapist.

My poor WW has now had to contend with the comparison to prostitution and now this. I wish I didn't think or feel this way but I can only be radically truthful, the way I am asking her to be. But in fairness, I struggle with the same.

[This message edited by Gemmy at 7:22 PM, Wednesday, November 4th]

While I agree with your point—and also find it puzzling why someone would stay with a partner they view that way—it doesn't actually counter what Gemmy said.

"Rape" is obviously a heavy, inflammatory word, and rightly so, but the logic behind the comparison holds up.

Technically, I could define myself as a victim of sexual assault (specifically what the UK would define legally as - Forced to penetrate, given the archaic legal definition of rape here requiring a male perpetrator which they were not). In reality, I hold no trauma from it, never bring it up, and even attended her wedding last year and wish her happiness. I feel embarrassed even brining this story up to make my point because it's so light in comparison to the acts, trauma, hell and misery other people have endured.

The point is I could have pursued legal action, but I never would have. It was a mix of miscommunication, a complicated history, and too much alcohol.

I choose not to label her that way because that isn't how I view what happened, but strictly speaking, the act occurred and I did not consent.

All this to say: irrespective of your partner's view of it, Gemmys points stand.

I am not saying "your poor wife," Gemmy (though also as someone who has done sex work I feel much more comfortable with the comparison of a WS having extramarital sex for the purpose of cheap validation to a prostitute.) But I do think the rapist comparison is a bit far fetched, and I understand her reaction to it. I don't necessarily think it's an indicator of a lack of remorse to take offense to such a thing. It's one thing to acknowledge the robbery of autonomy and informed consent, as happens with infidelity. It's quite another to physically and sexually violate someone, as is the connotation of "rape."

ETA: I take issue with consent being retroactively withdrawn and then labelling the sex as "rape." It's just not the same kind of physical violation as not consenting to sex or being unable to consent to sex (as in, being under the influence or too young) and having sexual acts done to you anyway.

2ndE: I would call it "sexual coercion," or "reproductive coercion," if you were deceived into having children.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 9:38 PM, Wednesday, November 4th]

I’ll respond, and hopefully I can do it without triggering or upsetting anyone also. I in no way intend to gainsay anyone’s perceptions of what happened to them.

Webster definition: sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of - mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception

Notice the last word, deception. I am not trying to make anyone uncomfortable or triggered, and I believe anyone can feel what was done to them in any term possible. The uncomfortable truth is, it meets the definition to a tee.

I saw that, too, and actually googled rape by deception to see if there were good explications of it. Because on the plain language of that definition, it means any deception that invalidates consent. It picks up every lie that matters to the victim.

I see no problem with the idea that infidelity is a consent-invalidator. But surely other deceptions are too. I gave some examples that were implausible because I thought it’d illustrate the issue I’m seeing. So here’s an example that I’ll proffer that I saw once on a website that rhymes with credit. It’s at least plausible, and probably even true.

A man (OP) was seeking advice on how to co-habitate/parent with his wife (OPW) for the next 15 years. He did not want to divorce for financial reasons and because he didn’t want to lose time with his children, the youngest of which was 3. He had been happily married. But what happened was that he discovered that OPW had lied to him about her sexual history. He had been very explicit about wanting a chaste bride. I can’t find the post, but from memory, she’d told him she had 2 partners before him, when in reality it was more like 22. To make matters worse, some of the men were people he knew and hated. She admitted to lying to him because she knew he would have considered her promiscuous, and that given his views on promiscuity, she knew that he would not have married her had he be in possession of the truth.

For OP, this was a complete deal-breaker. Would never have married her had he known. Would never have slept with her had he known, and was vowing to never do so again.

Are we comfortable calling OPW a rapist, of all the labels available to us for what she did? It fits the definition to a tee as well. As long as we could establish that the deception was sufficient to make his consent invalid, she’s a rapist.

That would be very incongruous to how I think of rape. I just cannot imagine a prosecutor bringing that case, and I would be very troubled to see her get jail time for it.

I see no way to distinguish OPW’s deception from a WS’s deception, or really any other kind of deception provided we were certain that it was sufficiently consent-invalidating.

I recognize that the right answer might just be, "yes, Frank, they’re both rape." Maybe they are and I need to adjust my thinking. I’ll noodle on it, but I have to say it feels like the wrong answer intellectually to me.

Anyway, notwithstanding anything I just wrote, I fully endorse and adopt this statement: "I am not trying to make anyone uncomfortable or triggered, and I believe anyone can feel what was done to them in any term possible."

[This message edited by Letmebefrank at 9:23 PM, Wednesday, November 4th]

I don’t think it’s critical to equate infidelity to rape, though by some definition apparently it falls in the category.

When I answered to that, I pointed out it’s sexual abuse (sexual emotional) like many others (including rape), and the trauma ALL this class of abuses causes is similar in the victims.

The circumstances are different because some abuses come from the outside world and other from the inside world, closest people and family.

The thing of having a traumatic experience in your inner world is that your system reacts erratically for there is nowhere to hide, while you can hide from the outside threats a threat for, within short circuit your defense mechanisms, so the reactions to it are all over the place.

Some may distance themselves from the abuser, others ,at respond with fawning or dependence, other dissociate. Is a mess, that’s why the anxiety post trauma is hard to parse and recover.

Reconnecting to the op, the whole point was it is not "a beautiful vacation" dream like and fantasy driven.

Is the stuff of horror painted as such.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 12:25 AM, Thursday, November 5th]

While (apparently?) GTM sees no evidence of a lack of remorse in Gemma’s XWW,

She immediately got defensive, joked about hunting down registered sex offenders and joining groups with them, then listed off all the things I have said to her since DDay

I see evidence right here she lacks remorse.

While I’m certain those who’ve committed adultery squirm at the idea of being called a rapist, there’s simply no question their actions constitute an absolute violation of sexual consent of their betrayed spouses, by way of deliberate deception. It’s about time society stops laughing away adultery. And sadly no, I don’t believe that will ever change. It’s the way of the fallen world.