SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

0h I completely agree. Your old guy gets all the consideration in this decision. He is #1 and I am so glad you have him!

I had a dog love story all written out last night but decided it was too personal and involved, so I didn't post it. Skeeter, you and I have such treasures in our old dogs, don't we? Yours' sounds much like my old dog: irreplaceable!

Aw, Superesse - love to hear about your dog!!

The last two days I've been feeling much lighter - I hope it lasts!! The new moon ritual I did a few nights ago really lifted my spirits.

Skeeter, glad to hear you are feeling better and better. Just for you, I will re-write that dog love story...it's one of those that tries to put into words the emotions I often block out of my own mind, just to function...so bear with me, it may take a while; I'll work on it later today, promise.

With an overnight low of 40, wind from the North this morning, brisk out there, I'm wanting that sunroom to make some progress. So I'm going to Lowe's to get 4 sacks of concrete to mix for a few rough spots (shoddy old porch piers that need squared up, just because I want the under-porch area to be a nicer tool storage space.) I also will price insulation for the flooring and all that jazz.

I just commandeered SAWH to help me load the first of 4 heavy, tall windows we were storing down in the barn for 6 years, waiting to start this project. Least he could do, right? He grumbled and barked orders back at me, the whole time....sheesh I have NEVER worked with such an Oppositional Male, and I ran construction crews! I know I work well with most men...just not this Mr. Know-It-All.

Plus, get THIS: the other day at Costco, he bought himself a new printer for his business. Fine. Except this morning he asks ME to download the software for it. Why? Because all these years, Superesse was forced to be the Internet gatekeeper after our MC in 2002-3 recommended he have no further access to the internet on our home devices...YAHHHHH, RIGHT!!! (It was that or I'd have had to kick him out, and the MC was trying to prevent that...so that "justified" me getting the job??? Like the underlying concept there was "She can control herself, but he can't?")

Repeatedly, he just worked around that arrangement he said he wanted me to do for "us," and STILL, 1 month after being evicted from "his" bedroom in my house, he has the NERVE to sit here patiently, interrupting my day's plan, to get me to play along with that tired old dance?? I told him I hope he is embarrassed by his fraudulent act and all the additional work he's put on me over the years for NOTHING. Any day he wants to get the F outta here, he can choose to be Mr. High Tech and buy and control the latest and greatest hardware and software, but Noooo....he wants me to think he really DOESN'T WANT to do that stuff, it's up to EVERYBODY ELSE to keep his big hands off those evil porn-pushing devices....

To add to the mess, his printer driver downloads ended up being massive, took almost an hour (80 MB by wifi). So while sitting there, wheels spinning again, instead of out working on MY projects, I happened to spy a document icon on my desktop dated exactly 2 years ago TODAY, titled "What I Won't Miss". I just had to read it, you guys - and then I printed it off and SHOWED IT TO HIM!

First on my old list was:

Constant needing to hang out in house until he leaves so I can know he isn’t on my wifi! Not free to come and go in my own home, for fear of him doing evil stuff within my house.

Then next, was:

Constantly having to keep track of where I HIDE the wifi so he won’t be TEMPTED.

Now, I realize how freaking Co-DEPENDENT that sounds, and it PISSES ME OFF that I'm still even having to DEAL with this, a month after another D-Day...and all because some incompetent counselor-in-training advised me back 18 years ago to be the "Adult" in this marriage, so Mr. SAWH could continue to do the TEENAGE BOY act...

I asked him if he could agree this list is MY perception of living with him, and therefore accurate from MY perspective. He nodded his head (but I don't think he really gets it.) Then I asked "What was YOUR reaction to reading these things about yourself on that list, that I won't miss if you leave? (a) that you just cannot help yourself , they are aspects of who you ARE, or(b) that each of them reflects CHOICES you keep making"? Again, he ponders it and decides to nod his head as IF to say "probably Choices, yeah." BUT NOTE THAT HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY ADMIT IT. These are the kind of subtle clues we tend to miss with these people. They really cannot grasp another person's reality.

Y'all, I'm WORKING TOO HARD for a Saturday morning, slap me!!! And...thanks for listening...I feel better somehow!

Oh see, that's too annoying. You know what, he needs to just go somewhere else with the freedom of his own wifi and drown himself in his own fluids. Just sit there like an idiot jerking off all day as that is apparently just who he is and what he wants to do. No parental figure of his own damned age group to stop him. Just go for it, buddy.

Stupid stupid stupid. There are naked people all over the interent and yet most of us can function like grown-ups anyway. To hell with that MC who tried to make you his mommy. That's just gross.

BTW, love stories about dogs are beautiful. They really are our best friends. I love mine to a ridiculous level.

I think I mentioned before that one of the papers I received from the Meadows talked about having someone who keeps tabs on the SAs internet. It suggested it could be a sponsor, but then it's a bit like the fox guarding the hen house, no?

So I think there's a great business opportunity for private investigators, or college hackers or clergy or who know who else to hire themselves out as internet police. Cause I sure don't think it's the job for a betrayed spouse.

Yes, Black Raven, isn't it nice and tidy how these experts have it all figured out? We just need to hire a team of mechanics to slap those training wheels on our man and maintain them...the experts don't seem to talk much about real life, where a BS's access to such elaborate options isn't all that easy, especially out in rural areas like we live in. So for people like me, by default...it'd D time, or take on the load....

Skeeter, I got tied up with my project today (concrete now placed!) and then heard there's an early frost warning around these parts, damn it, so I had to rush out at 9 pm and go pick my crop of tomatoes, still green, by flashlight!

But haven't forgotten about the dog story....too tired tonight.

Dee, I'm not even sure my SAWH took it to the point many/most SA's do (at least, he says he didn't get all that worked up...) I get the sense that his real thrill always has centered on 'getting something over on me, behind my back.' He's like the classic Passive-Aggressive Fear-Filled Dependent Boy. Not cute, at all. Bah.

[This message edited by Superesse at 10:48 PM, September 19th (Saturday)]

BR, I've heard of sober coaches for drug and alcohol users. They basically hang out with the addict for a chunk of the day to keep them out of trouble. They should have that for SAs.

I hate surveilling. It is so incredibly anxiety provoking. I wouldn't even surveil my own children that way if I thought they were getting into trouble. I don't believe people develop internal self-control by being monitored. Quite the opposite. And, I know from experience that there are a million ways around any tracking measures put in place. All it takes is a secret phone with its own plan for internet and phone access galore - no wifi needed.

I reject this whole paradigm of staying married with Herculean efforts. Marriage is a commitment entered into for, in large part, selfish reasons. We want to love and give love, have security and stability, to have a partner who has our back and helps us raise kids. It's not really an altruistic endeavor. Yes, we prioritize, support and nurture our partners, but it's not meant to be selfless, nor overly onerous. We do it because it's mutually beneficial. If they have to white-knuckle their way through that, can't keep their promises or participate reciprocally without therapists, rehabs, 12-step meetings, meds and surveillance then maybe they aren't marriage material. It's hard enough when you want it and you can keep your vows, why try to force yourself to do it? Clearly, they enjoy being dirt balls on the prowl more than they enjoy the comforts of a committed, loyal partners. Now, we can judge that all day long but the only real problem with it is the lying. They should just go be the creepy whoremongers, porn addicts and alley cats that they are naturally and accept it.

I'm processing a little bit.

I think my husband deleted all of his text messages with his sponsor. There wasn't anything there, anyway. Mostly just "hi. we still meeting. I'm running late."

But now the texts are, I think gone.

I specifically told my husband that if there were any changes in communications, that I wanted him to tell me.

Turns out, finding out things on my own, well, has lost it's luster and I'm no longer fond of it. We've also had the convos ad naseum where I say it would help build some trust.

But. He cannot remember my request. He cannot do what I ask him to.

Last time this happened, I was very upset. I'm getting to the point of indifference, which I hadn't expected. I suppose the good news is when DH doesn't communicate withe me, I am less upset. The bad news is, the less satisfied I am being a space where I'm contented at best.

Sorry, secondtime, but these personality types seem to thrive on having an "opposition" against which they "act out." And once married, the unfortunate spouse seems to become their needed Opponent. They were already primed to think that way from childhood, or possibly even from infancy, if you accept many developmental research conclusions.

Attachment theory seems to come close to explaining what we had to find out about our spouses so painfully: at the core of their person, they just cannot or will not attach to another in a solid (healthy) way. But here's the thing that confuses us: they seem so ready to attach - partially! So we keep buying their R efforts. Except their whole self cannot get on board with the basic idea of reciprocity. They can't allow themselves to ever be that vulnerable to another.

I liken it to a driver, heading down the road, then for no reason, getting hung up between gears on their nice, shiny and expensive standard transmission car...you know you got the thing into second gear, but the damn thing just won't go into third, so instead you limp along on the shoulder of life's road, wondering WTF is wrong with this beautiful car, and how difficult it's going to be to get it to a shop and get it fixed, let alone considering the inconvenience to you.

But the car analogy only goes so far: a good mechanic and the right parts, and soon you'll be back on the road. Whereas, with these type of sick individuals, the problem is just embedded too deeply. Perhaps their momma dropped them on their head or something. The apple grew lopsided from when it was a small fruit, as my BFF puts it.

All the SA writers I've come across years ago were saying at the root of the problem, SA grows out of an intimacy disorder of some kind. I think it roughly translates to disordered attachment, which humans and animals both acquire during infancy.

Years ago, when such research wasn't considered unethical, a researcher named Harlow took baby monkeys away from their mothers and caged them with only a wire monkey form onto which he had sewed monkey fur. I saw the videos in a class in development, and it was tragic. The babies clung to their furry wire figures as their only mother substitutes...sad to watch. But the real damage was when they grew up into very disordered monkeys; they failed to socialize well and I think they couldn't successfully raise young, either!

These SA people seem to have a somewhat similar issue in that they never achieved fundamental trust with another. To expect them to want to build that bridge of trust as an adult, may be expecting more than they can ever accomplish, sorry to say.

[This message edited by Superesse at 10:56 AM, September 20th (Sunday)]

He cannot remember my request. He cannot do what I ask him to.

This is disappointing. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. I don't recall your backstory, but your screen name suggests this isn't your first go round.

When they do something as egregious as infidelity one would think they would be giving reconciliation their all, proactively and doing whatever we ask. When they don't it's more cognitive dissonance. Doesn't add up that someone who wants to save their marriage would ignore basic requests. But they do.

Superesse summed it up so darned well!

...these personality types seem to thrive on having an "opposition"

against which they "act out." And once married, the unfortunate spouse seems to become their needed Opponent. They were already primed to think that way from childhood, or possibly even from infancy...

Attachment theory seems to come close to explaining what we had to find out about our spouses so painfully: at the core of their person, they just cannot or will not attach to another in a solid (healthy) way. But here's the thing that confuses us: they seem so ready to attach - partially! So we keep buying their R efforts. Except their whole self cannot get on board with the basic idea of reciprocity. They can't allow themselves to ever be that vulnerable to another.

Superesse, that's the best description of my STBX I've ever seen - I've read about attachment disorders a bit but you've boiled it down to it's essence. They want to attach and then meet someone (us unfortunately) and think, "this is this person I can get past my issues with" only to revert to their usually shitty behavior. They gaslight and blame because they can't accept how damaged they are and insist someone else must be to blame, maybe because someone else is to blame for their original injury.

I'm getting to the point of indifference, which I hadn't expected. I suppose the good news is when DH doesn't communicate withe me, I am less upset. The bad news is, the less satisfied I am being a space where I'm contented at best.

Most of us can't sustain in a relationship that requires us to detach from our spouse, our expectations and our values. Many of us have given it our best effort because we want to keep our lives as they are but very few seem to succeed without the SA actually aggressively doing the work. It takes so much energy and brain gymnastics for me to function on all cylinders when I suspect acting out or see he's not doing what he committed to doing. I need my brain and my energy for more positive endeavors. I liken it to treading water in a storm versus floating on a raft with a cocktail - I don't want to work that hard just to stay married.

Hi ladies.

I'm having a really hard night. I'm usually ok in the daytime then start to decompensate in the afternoon and by this time of night, I'm a wreck. And I'm so afraid of going to sleep - and I don't understand why. I'm not dreaming, so what's the big deal.

Please tell me I'll get through this.

(((Black Raven))) You will get through this, you are enough, you are not alone, and please know, biologically there is something about night-time that tells our brains to get more alert, because by nature, we are not designed to be nocturnal. We are meant to sleep while it's dark, but because we are not noctural creatures, that's also when our fears seem to flare up the worst, as I know so well.

It is also true that while we are staying busy with daily tasks, we can find it easier to put aside our feelings, and then when we try to unwind at the end of the day, all that stuff we didn't have time for, looms large.

Grief sucks, doesn't it? But please just take extra good care of yourself while you process all of this, and know that the insanity of your SAWH's issues need not define your life.

(((BlackRaven))), you will get through this, but I know the feeling you're talking about. I remember being that way too. Everyone around an addict gets sick too. It's a high stress situation and it affects us profoundly. I didn't even realize the amount of stress I was under at the time. It's a lot to handle. Try to be as gentle on yourself as possible.

Black Raven, nights can suck. I've found myself staying up ridiculously late in this weird strung out, afraid-to-sleep way as well. All of the unnamed fears well up in the dark and quiet.

I've found binge watching odd shows (my latest are corny and wholesome and nature themed) helps and reading. I pray as well or recite a mantra over and over to focus and settle my brain. I still struggle but it's not as bad as it was.

Back this spring, I had to get firm with myself about not reading my computer pad in my bed. Bed should be a safe place...I'd been staying up until 2 a.m., even later, searching every night and day for any scientific news that might give a glimmer of HOPE. That fretting and obsessing over the Virus and all the life changes around it, wore down my immune system so bad that I got sick in May and was hospitalized for 3 whole days, for observation of my labs due to who-knows-what, but which could have been fatal!

So now I believe the advice about getting to bed on some kind of routine schedule. We put kids to bed and say "lights out!" Yet this Intimate Betrayal is why we really struggle to get "safe" in our own bed - it hits us so close.

Hope you pulled through that last night, Black Raven. One day at a time..

I'm another with sleep problems. But, I'm also in peri-menopause. So I think there's a lot at work here.

While my husband and I were discussing schedules, I told him that I'd be happy to watch the kids while he met with his sponsor this fall...do it while he can before the snow flies..

He didn't say he stopped working his steps, so maybe that's a good sign?

Yes, nights are hard... for the first few months after everything happened, I could not sleep at all at night. I would be up until 4 or 5am every night, then sleep intermittently throughout the day.

In a weird way though it was almost like it was because it felt safer to be awake at night than during the day. Daytime was when people might ask things of me. Or he might try to text or call. Or my parents would knock on the door to check on me and try to force me out.

I wanted permission to just be. And it felt like nighttime was the only time when other people and/or life circumstances weren't pressuring me to heal on someone else's timeline. Most people aren't up at that hour, so I could do what I wanted without having to answer to anybody. I would often stay up reading here, creating a post or replying to someone else's.

I think it also had something to do with the fear of sleep thing. During the day it's a lot harder to sleep for a long stretch due to light or other interruptions. So if I was sleeping during the day then I was less likely to get into a deep sleep, and therefore less likely to have nightmares. I had a recurring nightmare at the time that was just my XH screaming at me about 6 inches away from my face with his crazy eyes. That, and the constant dreams that everything was ok, only to wake up to everything being far from it. So I did anything I could to avoid dreams of any kind. Even if that meant only sleeping for short bursts throughout the day.

Ladies, I just wanted to share that today, I finally met with the same lawyer who did my Marital Agreement in 2014 - I made this appointment like first of August! Right after the latest D-Day.

What he thought was that our Agreement was still valid and supported by our state code of law, which allows couples to make such agreements; that WH and I didn't appear have many areas of financial contention left to adjudicate, other than one small real estate property division we could do, if it bothers me to keep it jointly held. His opinion (he stated repeatedly) was that he can't see anything material to lose sleep over, if I decide to do "nothing" in writing, but essentially, my legal choices are 3:

(1) to do nothing and just keep on keeping on like this,

(2) to update the Agreement, if I want to add any changes, like getting me off the checking account so we aren't "joint" in any banking, etc.,

or

(3) move to officially Divorce him

"Basically," he said "it's a gut check you need to do."

I did leave reassured, yet I still suspect there is a bit of a gap between what my lawyer is saying will protect me from future civil liability, if SAWH were to screw up again financially, (go in debt behind my back) and whatever unforeseen hassles I may really be faced with down the road, if he ever DOES screw up, do you know what I'm trying to say? (I got the impression he thinks Super has it ALL under control, compared to most cases he sees. That's very nice...and probably due to the fact that SAWH did comply with all terms of our Agreement ...he just couldn't keep on being honest with me, huh...and you see, honesty wasn't spelled out in the Agreement, per se.)

Oh, and he also warned that sometimes, it can be a bigger mess for people to Divorce if they still hang out together. He has had many such situations and said different laws apply when you are entangled with someone to whom you aren't any longer married...like vehicle laws and such...

Is this why my head has been hurting, ever since?

Tell you what I learned: seeing the divorce lawyer is not a counseling session, it's just business deals....

Here's what I'd worry about too, Superesse. It's a morbid worry, but one I had to deal with while I was waiting to be able to divorce my XWH given that he is a drug addict. What if he dies first and you are left with whatever debts he has piled up? Are you protected from that? I was protected from anything that occurred from July 2018 on, but not from what he had already accumulated with numerous maxed out credit cards.