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Question, Recently my W and I discussed a trigger, an anniversary card just prior to her A’s.

I told her those words were either bullshit, or are only good in the moment. It reminded me of how she went from "content and happy" to multiple exit A’s.

As we discussed it I told her that I will never feel the blind trust, or confidence in the M, that I did before Dday.

She was very put off by this. She pointed to how hard she has worked to be a safe partner (and she has) but some things are gone forever and the full trust is one of them.

I told her that I trust her when she tells me where she is going, what she’s doing etc, I don’t check up on her because I believe she is telling the truth. It’s a few months or years down the road, if things get tough or complacent, she has shown what she’s capable of and I have to stand watch over the M.

For those in R did you have an expectation that ALL trust would be restored? Is this her not understanding or minimizing the depth of the damage? Or am I missing something else?

I’m entering A season and analyzing everything. I really appreciate the contribution of the WS here.

For those in R did you have an expectation that ALL trust would be restored?

No, I think your perspective is totally fair. My infidelity was over 30 years ago, and my BH trusts that I'm going where I say I am. But if I start acting sketchy -- even potentially sketchy -- I understand that I bear responsibility for the doubt that could arise.

Several years ago, one of my kids went on a student exchange trip. The parent/kid notification group was set up through WhatsApp because it could be used internationally. I put it on my phone for the duration of the planning and travel. Eventually (long after the trip was over), my phone was having issues with storage space, so I deleted the app. The phone continued to misbehave, so I asked my BH to look at it. I guess it showed somehow that WhatsApp had been recently deleted, and that set off alarm bells for him. He came to me very stressed and asked what it had been doing on my phone and why I got rid of it.

The last thing I felt was angry or defensive. I felt an overwhelming wave of compassion for him and guilt that he had been through this stress. Had I never cheated, it would never have occurred to him to even wonder if there was a nefarious reason for me having that app on my phone. Fortunately, as soon as I explained, he remembered the trip-related installation. He felt badly that he hadn't before, and we hugged it out and moved on.

I'm not sure that blind and absolute trust is ever wise, but after an affair, it's certainly not something any WS can expect from their BS again.

We're 9 years out. I've walked chalk. The subject of the A never, but never, comes up. I know the trust will never go back to what it was before. You can glue a broken dish together and still use it but the cracks will always still show. As a practical matter, we both have iPhones and share location with each other. I have changed jobs (used to be on the road 3-4 days a week) which makes the prospect of an A much less likely. I freely hand her my phone, computer, iPad when asked. I think she is wary and always will be and I feel badly that I have made this necessary with my reckless reprehensible conduct. Mostly we're okayish but if you expect ever to get back to puppies and rainbows after A / Dday, you're dreaming.

Question for ex wayward wives. My fww had sex with her AP around 20 times. She told me that only two of these times she was able to climax (early on). She then faked it for the entire rest of the affair. My question is why would a woman do this? I mean, for me as a man having an orgasm is a central motivation to have sex.

My question is why would a woman do this? I mean, for me as a man having an orgasm is a central motivation to have sex.

This might be a question for General, just because it's not tied specifically to WWs, but I'll take a run at it.

It's common for women to feel pressure to "get there" because their partner will feel inadequate or despondent or even angry if they don't. If you accept the premise that a woman's orgasm is tied to her partner's skill, then failure to come can be treated like a complaint or an indictment of that skill. Some men will continue until a woman is sore or raw rather than accept that it just isn't going to happen. They'll assure her that other women have loved what they're doing, so maybe she should look into why she's so difficult to please. Even if the partner is a decent guy who just wants to make her feel good, it's hard to watch him feeling sad and inadequate because he thinks he should have been able to get the job done. There's also the fear that he'll drop her and go looking for someone who doesn't require so much effort to get over the line.

Faking it is easier than all that drama and recrimination. Of course, if a woman starts down that path, it's hard to backtrack, which can be a real problem if the relationship becomes serious and he has no idea that she isn't genuinely satisfied.

Tanner:

No, I don't expect the trust to ever be the same. It's something a bit lopsided in our relationship though- I never had blind trust in any relationship as my dad had multiple A's on my mom, and my mom was technically the other woman when they started dating. He was separated from his wife at the time, but not yet divorced. My mom even had to push my dad into giving his 1st wife her fair half.

So yeah, I never grew up with a sense of blind trust in an M. My husband had the opposite. His parents tolerated crap from each other and became unhappy and depressed. Just blindly accepted that things were the way they were and that the M would continue A free no matter what. So, when our M was in the toilet and falling apart, husband never thought anything of it. That was just the way M's were.

Now that I had my A and we nearly D'd, he's lost that blind trust. BUT, he's waking up to the fact that his parent's M was destructive in its own subtle and deceitful way. They're great people, but they're unhappy. Husband thought that it was enough to be a great person- and that happiness/satisfaction was secondary to that. His trust is gone, and since then, he's much less complacent. He's also coming to terms with his own training and how he wants our M to be different than the one he grew up with.

It's a mixed bag. Our M has improved a TON since we've been working at it. But he's grieving the thing he lost, which I never had- security and blind trust (bad). The fact that that was tied to his complacency with a crappy M has come to light and he's now refusing to settle (good). Meanwhile, I'm bewildered at how he feels about the loss of something I never had. Empathy for that is something I am working hard at gaining.

Gaining Closure:

I second BSR: it's WAY easier to fake it and let him have his satisfaction than to actually work at being satisfied. I don't think I ever orgasmed (maybe once? maybe a few times??) in sex until before the A when I caved on a thing my husband wanted to try because it "worked on his ex before me and she would squirt everywhere and it's soooooo sexy." So yeah, I achieved orgasm, but it was tied to the shame that it took me so long to please him in that way and the shame of not being as good in bed as his ex. So, now O was tied to shame and inadequacy and NOT my own pleasure.

FUCKED UP.

And yeah, husband would plow on and on until I was sore, hoping to be validated by my O. It began to be a chore and I would fake it so he could have his and I could go back to sleep. Also, the only time he really showed tenderness was after he came. So there was that motivating me to fake it- I just wanted him to snuggle and be affectionate for a while.

Things are improving now. I'm focusing more on my own pleasure and letting go a bit more. I used to think it was selfish to care more about getting mine than him getting his. That he would leave me if I didn't please him (that's what my dad did to my mom- had an A because she was no longer fun ). It's actually the opposite. Husband can get his rocks off on me getting mine... so, yeah, I'm being more selfish and upfront about what I like.

I never had blind trust in any relationship as my dad had multiple A's on my mom, and my mom was technically the other woman when they started dating.

Thanks BSR and MIgander. I think this right here explains a lot. My parents were married 58 years when my Dad passed away. Growing up I never witnessed an argument between them, maybe a rare "do you know where you’re going?" on a road trip. I had a very secure home and family environment growing up.

My W grew up in a very toxic home, both parents were (teenagers, hippies) serial cheaters and broke up every other weekend, lots of fighting and domestic abuse. My W always said she would never live like her parents and she has been a great W and Mother for most of our M.

This explains why I felt secure in the M and she never did. Dday 2, I 180 and headed for the lawyer, she flipped out and suddenly wanted to save the M. She has been doing everything I asked to make our R work. Her not getting the lost trust had me miffed.

I often wonder if the the WS was more attracted to the AP, then would it be a waste of time to R?

I'm at a point where this question is really weighing me down. My WW really went out of her way for her AP where as I got rejected for alot of the same requests. mind you that was before the A, now I can ask and I know I'll receive. its just not the same.

Follow up, but was your A more interesting, intense than what you had with your BS?

Quick take on this, JB.

My A was not about my AP as a person. He was less handsome, less smart and really a bit annoying too. I was attracted to the attention and validation he gave me.

Its rarely about the AP as a person. Usually there are some common interests or shared sense of humor or something.

Either way, the job of the AP is to reflect back upon us WSs our own glory. Not to be an actual human we care for.

Question for WS: How long did it take for you to "get it?" At what point after D-Day did you and your BS feel like you truly understood the pain and trauma the A caused the BS?

We are 3 months from D-Day and I feel like my WH can't possibly realize what I've been going through. He's still defensive, uses an annoyed tone when I keep asking the same questions, jumps to extremes ("OK fine, then I guess you want me to just leave"). He still picks on my words and not the overall meaning behind what I'm trying to say. These are the same communication issues we had before the A. He says he has a hard time with empathy and "accessing and expressing his emotions." I feel like the issues that led him to rationalizing the A are the very things that are impeding recovery. He can sit across the room and watch me have a meltdown without saying much. Later that night after I've settled down and am watching TV in bed, he'll stay in the living room. He won't come in and ask if I'm OK, or just sit next to me and be present. He's always been an avoider. I've calmly spelled out what I'm feeling and what I need from him right now. He says he understands, but his actions don't really change. I told him the other night that if he truly understands, perhaps he just doesn't care. He said that's not true, that he does care. He says he will discuss all this with his IC (he's only had 2 sessions so far).

So again, my question is how long did it take to "get it?" If you were an avoider, at what point did you realize you had to drop that behavior and jump in feet first? Was it a sudden realization or more of a process?

I didn't get it until I stopped seeing myself and the OM as the victims of a cruel fate. In my mind, I hadn't asked to develop feelings for OM, and I had done what my BH wanted by ending the A. I understood why I had to choose, but I thought BH had "won," because he had exactly what OM wanted more than anything: me. Now poor OM was pining, and I had broken his heart, so why was BH continuing to beat a dead horse? What else was I supposed to do? Was I not, in fact, what BH wanted, and if not, why were we going on with this painful charade?

I asked BH that, and I meant it. That was the level of entitlement I had developed from the validation of the affair. BH was so afraid of losing me that he accepted months of "OM and I can just be friends" bullshit. When he finally demanded total NC, and I complied (almost a year later), he was so grateful that he accepted rugsweeping. All that meant was that he never healed, and he kept suffering the decades until the lid finally blew back off.

I think that if BH had taken a harder line from the beginning, I would have woken up much faster... but I have to tell you, F&W, that if I didn't, he would have been better off walking away. Living with an unremorseful WW caused ongoing and cumulative damage. Your WH sees himself as the option you chose, and he can't understand why you chose him if he makes you so miserable. If you decide that he has a point, and find the strength to leave him, then it will make sense to him that the choices he made significantly diminished his value to you and that what he's offering isn't enough. Then you either have something to work with, or you're free of something unworkable.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 12:24 AM, Thursday, June 16th]

Hi F&W,

Sadly it took at least a year before I began to pull my head out of my ass and get on board with helping my H fix things. All the problems in the M that I used to justify my A were the very problems I had to set aside so as to help him. I'm still having trouble (3yrs in) being fully present with my H. From what I've seen in myself over the years, there's several steps in the WS "getting it" and starting the work to heal the M in earnest:

-"head out of ass:" Stop the A, stop pining for AP and start seeing the level of damage done to themselves and their BS.
-stop wayward thinking: Likely the longest step for most (was for me). This is where WS has to work hardest at seeing their thought patterns for what they are: unhealthy and skewed. There may have been unhappiness in the M and negativity and unhealthy behaviors and poor coping skills. These are all M and BS problems that were focused on by the WS in order to justify the M. The WS's job is to separate these out in this stage and see things as they are. They need to stop the justification and stop blaming the A on the spouse.
-see the BS as a human and develop compassion and empathy: this can go with stopping wayward thinking. The WS lacked empathy before, during and after the affair and needs to relearn this skill in order to start supporting their BS. As they grow in empathy for the BS, they also grow in remorse for their A.

WS's need to do a lot of work on themselves to stop their wayward thinking. The thought patterns go all the way back to our early training in our families growing up. That's a long road and a lot of therapy and hard work to get enough progress to be a safe partner, let alone a partner you'd even consider seriously for R.

It's good news that your WS is in IC. If he consistently does the work, improvements should be noticeable. Are you in IC? This can help you deal with the trauma of the A, the discovery and the post-A behaviors your WS will likely have for a while.

I know a lot of people are against MC in early days, but once your WS gets his head out of his ass and is genuinely committed to doing the work on himself, it may be useful. HOWEVER, only in the context of developing communication skills. You're not in MC to "heal the marriage" or even come to terms with what happened. It needs to be focused purely on communication skills and boundary setting together. This will limit a lot of damaging behaviors and help you work through your everyday issues without doing more damage. Think of it as learning how to put your personal relationship on hold while you heal individually while learning how to maintain a respectful BUSINESS relationship so you can continue to run your household as best you both can.

He fired you from being his wife. However, if you're still living together, you need to figure out the best way to be roommates.

I'm sorry you're here. It's early days yet. Adjusting your expectations will likely help you better come to terms with this.

Adjusting your expectations will likely help you better come to terms with this.

I really appreciate the replies. I think the above statement is what I needed to hear the most. It tells me that he doesn't yet have the ability to help me heal, and that I need to be patient and let him do his own work. I do think it's reasonable to express how I feel, what is triggering me and communicate what straightforward, tangible steps he can take now to help me (i.e. checking in, keeping his locator on, letting me know if his plans change, etc.). He's actually been doing well with those things. I have asked him to just be more present, not retreat to the den for hours every evening (which he did for years to engage in virtual sex or communicate with the AP). If he goes into the den now, he keeps the door open. He also moved the chair to the other side of the desk so I can see the monitor when I walk by. I see these as positive changes. He's only had two sessions with his IC, but seems excited about how it's going.

The things that are still bothering me are his interpersonal communication skills, defensiveness, lack of empathy and lingering justification for bad behavior. I still don't think he sees the A as the soul-crushing thing that it was for me. I told him that, besides murdering me or someone close to me, having an A was the worst thing he could do to me. He was like, "Really?" I asked what he thinks would have been worse. He said, "Well, it would be worse if I had hit you or beaten you up." I said, "Nope! I think that would have been better than what you did." He just scratched his head. He's still thinking like a wayward. He also gets annoyed when I get upset and verbally slam the AP. He tries to soften everything I put on her or try to take half of the blame. He says things like, "Well, we both did that. We're both to blame." When I quote something she wrote in the slew of disgusting emails they exchanged, he says, "Well, I don't think she meant it like that. No, she wasn't horrible, just needy." It's not that I'm worried about him bouncing back to the A. I actually believe him when he says he's relieved that it's over, that he wanted to end it but didn't know how, that she cried and manipulated each time he said they needed to wind it down. I saw evidence of that in their emails. I do, however, think he doesn't see the AP for who she is. Perhaps seeing her in the cruel light of day will also make him see himself, and he's not ready to do that. I get it. It will take time. All I can do is look for positive changes and work on healing myself. I did 4 weeks of IC but decided to end it. The therapist was simply not the right one for me. I would talk and talk, but didn't get much guidance or actual advice that I could use. I just didn't click with her style. I'm going to take a few weeks off and try again. Thanks again for the input.

[This message edited by FireandWater at 3:20 PM, Thursday, June 16th]

My wife has recently said that one of her biggest fears is that I will come home and ask for a divorce. Another one is that our daughter will go NC with her. Our son has already gone NC.

I asked her, if she feels this now, then why did she go and have an affair? Didn't she fear during the affair? She answered that while she knew things would be bad if she got caught, she tried her very best to not think about. She said that her reasoning was that as long as she didn't get caught, she wouldn't have to worry about it.

Was this how you felt during your affair? If you are, or were in R, did you have these same fears?

Tacit

To answer your question, I really didn’t care about the consequences, at least in any meaningful way. I cared about my family such that I didn’t want any harm to befall them.

But I cared about myself more.

My relationship with my AP was more important. I had disconnected from my marriage enough to where I didn’t care what happened to it if it was discovered. Certainly I didn’t want to get caught but that’s only because I didn’t want that type of upheaval in my life.

Hi Tacit,

I really tried hard not to think about what I was doing -- to treat it as a little bubble that existed outside my real relationship and real life. I think people who can't do that are more likely to be the ones who, as ff described, vilify their spouse in order to justify the affair. I compartmentalized instead. I justified myself with the argument that what I gave OM was mine to give, my mind, my body. In reality, I had promised that mind and body to BH, and the only way that I was free to offer it to anyone else is if I honorably and openly told BH my intentions and accepted the resulting breakup.

Not only did I not want to face the fallout of my actions, but I sincerely convinced myself that I was choosing the lesser of two evils. I had such abandonment issues that I would have been more devastated by being dumped than by being cheated on. To me, the unforgivable offense would have been leaving my BH for OM. That's how lousy my self-esteem was, how broken my world view.

People do things all the time that they know are unhealthy. I think most people are aware of the dangers of smoking, weight gain, excessive drinking, and drug use, and yet millions of people go on every day with those risky behaviors, hoping that somehow, they'll never face the consequences. Once reality intrudes, and the bill comes due, that's when they're terrified that they won't be able to pay.

I cared about my family such that I didn’t want any harm to befall them.

I really tried hard not to think about what I was doing -- to treat it as a little bubble that existed outside my real relationship and real life.

Not only did I not want to face the fallout of my actions, but I sincerely convinced myself that I was choosing the lesser of two evils.

These sound like my WW's explanation for what was going through her mind during her A as well.

People do things all the time that they know are unhealthy. I think most people are aware of the dangers of smoking, weight gain, excessive drinking, and drug use, and yet millions of people go on every day with those risky behaviors, hoping that somehow, they'll never face the consequences. Once reality intrudes, and the bill comes due, that's when they're terrified that they won't be able to pay.

I think this really helps explain it. My WW is terrified of the consequences of her actions. In some way, she knew that this would happen if she got caught, despite all her rationalizations. But now the reality is facing her and she is more scared than she ever was during her affair.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Question for WS: How long did it take for you to "get it?" At what point after D-Day did you and your BS feel like you truly understood the pain and trauma the A caused the BS?

This is an interesting question. I've struggled with "getting it". I spent six months working for the same company as my AP through the end of 2017 into 2018. I got that my BS was upset, but was still firmly in the affair (I was still in daily contact with hr as we worked in the same office) I told myself that as we were no longer sending flirtatious messages and having phone calls then the affair was over. I was looking for a new job as I knew this was necessary, but looked for a job that I wanted rather than getting any job and leaving the company. I should have left the job with immediate effect and taken anything to remove myself from the affair and AP. I did not even consider this as it would have raised questions and made me look bad in they eyes of work colleagues and friends. I was considering my own feelings and image over that of BS. During this time I was still in denial about what had happened in the EA and with previous physical and online affairs. I refused to see flirtation as infidelity and would say to BS that it was "harmless flirting" We went o MC and I lied and minimised in this, at no point did MC call me out on my inconsistencies. She in fact agreed wtih me and called my activity "titilation". Years of half arsed attempts at self improvement and writing timelines still did not come to any real sign of me actually getting it. I had a couple of breakdowns where I would tell BS more details of my affairs and admit to additional infidelity. This was followed by shame spirals and contemplation of self harm. I did seek out medical help and IC. Even at this time I was not telling my IC everything and I used these sessions to make me feel better about my situation. BS was continuing to support me and give me time to complete the time line and work on my whys. Throughout this time I was also having more outbursts of anger and did nothing to control this as I was using this intimidation to control conversations. Ultimately this lead to a physical assault where I pinned BS to the bed and threatened her.

I think it was at this point I finally really decided to get some help and really try to get well again. Looking back I have been abusive and wayward for decades. These is a lot to unpack, I have a new IC, I am attending weekly group sessions for domestic abuse and I enrolled at a mental health charity who have helped me with anger management, CBT and relaxation techniques. I am still getting angry on occasion and struggle with feelings and talking about them. An example would be during a recent group session I was triggered by wok we were doing on physical intimidation where we wrote down one incident of abuse and looked into our body language, thought, feeling, justifications, actions, intentions beliefs, impact of my actions and then into where we thought these actons were learnt. The final stage was what we should have done differently and what techniques we should have used to stop the situation becoming or being abusive. I found this extremely hard. I could think of multiple incidents of abuse (not only physical intimidation) and for a couple of minutes I lost any ability to think as I was feeling so ashamed. I thought of BS and how everything I've done to her over the years both during and after my affairs has broken her to a shadow of her former self. I stared at the floor in disbelief and on a rare occasion I felt the pain of it all. Yes, I was ashamed and felt that pain, but I also felt her pain too. It is not the first time this has happened, but I would usually push these thought aside as I did not like them. I hated thinking I was solely responsible for EVERYTHING that is broken in my life. The leader of the course asked that we complete what we were doing. I feared having to talk through my workings as I did not think I could hold it together. The class moved onto a new subject and we agreed we would complete this for other times we have been abusive. This did give me time to pull myself together. I text BS and told her this was a difficult session for me. While driving home, I had to call my parents as I had three missed calls from my father in the space of about 30 minutes. I assumed something was up. No, he wanted to remind me they were going on vacation. I'm not sure what happened, but the next thing I had driven into a traffic island and damaged the side of my car. This freaked me out and I reached out to BS. She came to help and be with me, which I appreciated while some roadside repairs were done. When we got home I did not tell BS about the session and held onto my feelings for another three days. Again I had slipped backwards into not wanting to face me pain..

I have a long way to go to truly "get it". I think I'm doing well at times and see some of the benefits of my work with counsellors. However I am still acting waywardly as I'm not discussion this with BS and when the sessions get to painful I hide from these feelings. On Friday, BS and I were discussing where I am with self recovery. BS pointed out that she thought I was not doing anywhere near as well as I thought and she was close to telling me that she has had enough. This brought up emotions and I instinctively tried to push them away. I did manage to let them out and tried to embrace them. It was hard. However I know I need to do this all the time to have any chance of "getting it" and becoming more empathetic. I am clearly still wayward and have shifted from physical types of abuse into emotional abuse. I will do the work suggested by the group therapy and have been working more on my whys with IC. I can not longer hide from who I am. I have accepted what I have done, but not what I am to allow myself to be that person. This is going to be hard work as I have rarely taken self responsibility for anything. Even as a child.

I see the pain I have inflicted on BS and I know tis is all my fault and that there is no one else to blame but me. What I have failed to do is own that pain, own the distress it causes me to realise this and to use this pain to move myself forwards rather than an excuse to move backwards into my self absorbed shell.

I wish you and your WS luck in his journey to self realisation. Does he read or post on here?

My wife has recently said that one of her biggest fears is that I will come home and ask for a divorce.

This is a concern. While I was in my affairs and deep into wayward thinking I did not really contemplate "consequences" for my actions. I was extremely arrogant and though I would never be caught and even if I were to be caught I would "deal with it". What this means, I do not know. I have not dealt with it well at all. I thought I was keeping both sided of my life separate. My marriage, where I thought I was looking after BS and my other life with drinking, APs, toxic friends and spending money like it had gone out of fashion. I refused to entertain that anything was wrong with my behaviour and that I was in any way mistreating BS. I was, of course. Not only with the affairs, I was also being horrible and spiteful to BS and her immediate family. People who were noting but nice to me. They gave me space and support when I was going through a bad day and I did nothing to thank them for this. I was angry and distant.

In the time since the 2017 d-day I have not lost this arrogance. BS would get desperate for me to come clean and talk about the affairs and get myself the help I needed to be honest with myself and with her. I refused this help and entrenched myself in more denials and lies. When challenged on this I would use the possibility of separation/divorce as a tool or weapon against her. I threatened to leave and on multiple occasions I did leave the house. I would check into a hotel, I was angry at her for calling me out on my lies and lack of work. I resented her becoming more powerful against me. I wanted everything to be brushed under the carpet and for her to "get over it". BS would contact me and while I was desperate to come home and work on us and fixing the marriage, I still wanted this to happen without me having to do a lot of painful self evaluation. I was/still am too weak, to cowardly to continually live with what I've done. For years I refused to even consider BS leaving me. I thought of myself as a prize that she should fight to keep... I am turning from this thought process and am trying to embrace the pain (as I've said above). I know I'm wrong, I know I'm lucky to still have BS in my life, I know I have completely ruined everything in her life (including her) some of this damage will never be fixed even if we separate. When that pain comes, as it has while I'm typing, I will continue to feel it and live with it. I will discuss with BS. I do fear divorce and now I will show that to BS and not hide arrogantly behind a facade of not caring.

I wish you and your WS luck in his journey to self realisation. Does he read or post on here?

Bulcy,

Thank you for your very honest response. It was very helpful. No, my WH does not read or post here. I haven't even told him the name of the website. I just refer to everyone here as "my people." Sometimes when we're talking I'll say, "Well, my people say..." He sometimes seems to be threatened by "my people" which is completely in line with his defensive character. He said, "I just want to make sure no one on there is trying to convince you to just dump me because that's what they did." I told him that "my people" have a variety of viewpoints and experiences. They have all "been there, done that." Some took the R route. Some took the D route. I am an adult with excellent reading and comprehension skills. I can discern which information applies to me and which does not. I have copied several posts and emailed them to him, many of which he read multiple times and said he found helpful.

I will say that since he's been off work (he's a teacher on summer vacation) he's been doing a lot of reading. He had a session last week with his IC, took notes, typed them up and searched on a lot of the concepts the IC mentioned. Yesterday, he said something about his stress. I kind of jokingly said, "What do you have to be stressed about?" He said, "I destroyed you." I supposed that shows some progress.