WW viewing AP's social media
Hello,
I'm not sure if this forum is the best place for this question or not. My wife and I have been trying to "reconcile" for 6 months now. I put that in quotes because I only feel partial commitment from her in that area. There has been some resistance from her in getting rid of things related to the affair and continuing to blame me for anything and everything when we talk about the affair, etc.
Recently we had a long discussion where I told her that I was really tired of her always blaming me for things instead of taking responsibility for what she did, and she said she would do better. I said I needed her to be doing things that show me she is committed and that she is never going to cheat on me again. One of the things I listed was her not viewing her AP's social media anymore. This has been an ongoing issue between us where I have explained several times that I didn't want her doing that. I've brought it up in MC and the therapist didn't like the idea either. My IC thinks it's a really bad idea.
When I brought it up, she had a strange guilty look on her face. I asked her about it and she admitted that she is still looking at his social media (using a friends account since she is blocked by the AP's wife), and told me that it helped her when she was feeling very low, and didn't think it affected my feelings very much because she stopped for like two months and couldn't see a change in me. Then she told me that a part of her is keeping this connection alive as a fallback in case our marriage doesn't make it. 
My head nearly exploded with that admission. Well I guess I know where all the resistance is coming from now. 
The next day I told her that I really needed her to promise she would never look him up again in any form. She reluctantly promised. I don't fully believe she is going to keep this promise, or tell me about it next time. I just needed to make sure she understood what I need in this area and that I can't continue down the same path we are on if she continues this activity.
On the one hand I guess I should be grateful she told me at all, and that it's not a super serious issue like continuing her physical affair. On the other it is one directional communication, and if her AP is doing the same with her social media then it's delayed two directional communication.
I have read several posts here on SI where it's taken a long time (more than 6 months) for their wayward spouse to snap out of it and quit similar activities. Even in Maia's Withdrawal Survival Guide she said it took well over a year for her to really begin to move on.
This leaves me wondering if this is just an expected bump in the R road and I should practice patience or if there is a brewing problem. Like a volcano getting ready to blow, the signs happen long before that.
I tend to Catastrophize in my head and often go right to the worst case scenario. Thats a recurring theme with several of my posts here. I'm usually trying to make sure I'm not blowing things out of proportion and to figure out how to handle them in a more balanced way.
Thanks.
16 comments posted: Thursday, November 28th, 2024
Unmet Needs
I've been trying to process the idea of the unmet needs fallacy, in relationship to my situation. I usually journal things like this out, but this time I thought I would make a more generic story and see what you all thought of it. I took ideas from various places, including SI, and mashed them all together.
Thought this would help others process this idea. (Also feedback is appreciated 
)
Affairs and Unmet Needs
Often when an affair is revealed, the betrayed partner, dumbfounded, in shock, asks their beloved why they were betrayed. They ask what happened to cause this to occur, and if they are interested in reconciliation they ask what they can do to fix things now. They ask how they can prevent the straying spouse from leaving to make a life with their affair partner.
In most cases the straying partner is eventually able to come up with a list of things they expected from the relationship and were not getting. Needs they had that were going unmet. These unmet needs are often listed as the primary reason they looked elsewhere to fill the needs they were missing. These needs could be anything from behaviors they expected from the betrayed partner, feelings they weren't feeling, or things the betrayed partner did that angered them or pushed them away.
No matter what the needs were, the logic goes like this:
My needs were unmet -> this caused me to be unhappy in the relationship -> this unhappiness left me seeking those needs elsewhere -> those needs were filled by my affair partner.
Lets illustrate this in a story:
Imagine there are two people in a kitchen, the straying partner, and the betrayed partner. We will call them Bob, and Susan.
Bob is sitting at the table with an empty glass in his hand, and Susan is standing by the fridge. Bob asks Susan to get him something to drink. Susan opens the fridge, pulls out some milk, and fills Bobs glass up. Bob looks at the glass, apparently not satisfied, and all of the sudden the glass slips from his hand. It falls to the ground and shatters. Milk and glass flying everywhere. Confused, Susan asks why he dropped the glass. He responds with "you put the wrong thing in my glass. I wanted orange juice not milk. I was so disturbed by what you did that I accidentally lost my grasp on the glass and it slipped from my hand".
In this admittedly implausible story, the glass represents the unmet needs of the straying spouse. The milk represents the [unsuccessful] attempt of the betrayed spouse to fill those unmet needs. The mess on the floor represents the damage done to their relationship by an affair. The floor is slick, and littered with glass. Each step must be taken carefully while either leaving the room or staying to clean the mess up. This represents the danger that results from an affair no matter if reconciliation happens or not.
Bob is using his unmet need as the reason he was shocked into dropping the glass. For Bob, Susan caused him to break the glass. Even if it’s not 100% blame from Bob, Susan is still partially to blame.
Nearly all straying spouses arrive at this line of thinking one way or another after their affair is revealed. It's extremely common. This theme is also prevalent in nearly all of the affair recovery materials out there. People everywhere seem to believe it. All the way from famous authors down to couples therapists, family, friends, and nearly everyone in-between.
This idea is known as the unmet needs fallacy, and has serious problems. Its use is not only harmful to the betrayed partners who are subjected to it, but it's also counterproductive to healing for both partners.
In the story above there are several problems.
The first is that Bob never communicated his needs properly. Instead of clearly asking for a glass of orange juice, he asked for a drink and assumed Susan would know what he wanted to drink. Probably thinking something like: "It's obvious." Or "She should have known what I wanted, it's common knowledge!" Or "If she loved me she would have remembered I preferred orange juice and not milk and given that to me instead!", or "how many times do I need to tell her what I like to drink?". This poor communication is also extremely common in straying spouses. Often the betrayed partners only hear of these "unmet needs" after the affair is revealed.
The second problem is that the Bob didn't "accidentally" let the glass slip from his hand. Affairs at not accidents. Usually there is a fair amount of thought that goes into having one before hand. Bob dropped, and broke the glass on purpose.
The third problem is that Bob didn't communicate the seriousness of his needs. Susan is probably standing there thinking "oh it's just another normal day, and my love is asking for something. I'll give it to him and we can continue on with our day" completely unaware that Bob intends to break the glass on the floor (a metaphor for having an affair), and blame it on Susan. There is no way Susan could have known the seriousness of the situation because Bob concealed that from her. This level of deceit is also very common in straying partners.
Let's update the story:
Again Bob is sitting at the table with a glass in his hand, and Susan is standing by the fridge. Bob shakes the glass at Susan indicating he wants something. Susan, confused, assumes that he wants something to drink. So she goes over to the fridge, pulls out some milk, and fills his glass up. Bob looks at the glass, angry that Susan didn't understand what he wanted, and chooses to throw the glass on the floor. Milk and glass fly everywhere. Confused, and a little scared, Susan asks Bob why he threw the glass on the floor. Bob responds with "I wanted orange juice not milk. I was so hurt and angry that you put the wrong thing in my glass, that I chose to break the glass on the floor".
In this story the mess on the floor was deliberately caused by the Bob because Susan didn't meet his needs. Again Bob is blaming Susan for his actions. This is also a very common reaction of straying spouses after their affair is revealed. They say things like "if you hadn't X, Y, or Z, I wouldn’t have had the affair", or "if you had done X, Y, or Z, I wouldn’t have had the affair"
This story still has a few issues though. There's still the issue of poor communication. Not asking for what he wanted, and not communicating the seriousness of his internal feelings to Susan.
Also, it's not justifiable, or rational, for Bob to throw the glass on the floor when he doesn’t get what he wants. Especially when he doesn’t communicate what he wants clearly. Susan is in a loose loose scenario. Dammed if she doesn’t try to meet his needs, and dammed if she tries and interprets his needs wrong.
It’s the same with affairs. Unmet needs don’t justify destroying the relationship by having an affair. Even if they did, betrayed partners are in a loose loose situation. Poor communication and deception from the straying partner, means they have no good way to meet those needs, even if that were a valid reason to have an affair.
Another issue with the above story is that the betrayed partner can’t control the actions of the straying partner, and visa versa. If the betrayed partner could control the actions of the straying partner then why did the straying partner stray at all? I’m sure the betrayed partner didn’t approve. If people could control the actions of others, then why wasn’t the straying partner able to influence the betrayed partner to meet their needs properly?
No. Everyone has free will and the betraying partner made a very unfortunate choice, but it was still a choice.
Every time Bob, and Susan discuss the mess on the floor, Bob angrily blames Susan for causing it. This is often reflected in real life as well. The betrayed partner, already in extreme pain from the betrayal, is confused, and further traumatized, by accusations of wrong doing, and indirect blame the affair.
Most straying partners (and marriage counselors) don't make the obvious mistake of blaming the affair on the betrayed partner directly. They understand that there is no rational way they could defend that position since the betrayed partner literally was not present. Rather, they adopt the above logic to infer blame instead. They say things like "affairs don’t come from nowhere", and "there was a rift in our marriage that you are partially to blame for", and "happy marriages take two people, you didn’t do your part", etc.
These are all attempts to spread the blame onto the betrayed spouse. If this were not the case, then why is this always brought up in the presence of the betrayed spouse?
Lets revisit the story again:
Bob is again sitting at the table, glass in his hand, and Susan is standing by the fridge. Bob shakes his glass at Susan indicating he wants something. Susan, confused, assumes that he wants something to drink. So she goes over to the fridge, pulls out some milk, and fills his glass up. Bob looks at the glass, angry that Susan didn't understand what he wanted, and then chooses to throw the glass at Susan. The glass shatters against her body, knocking her to the floor, milk and glass flying everywhere. Terrified, injured, and in pain, Susan asks why Bob threw the glass at her. Bob, yelling, says "I wanted orange juice not milk. I was so hurt and angry that you put the wrong thing in my glass, that I chose to throw the glass at you! You deserved it!".
The story has taken a turn for the worse. In this most recent form of the story, it’s clear that Bob is acting extremely irrationally, and is abusing Susan.
Unfortunately this is far closer to the reality of what happens in an affair than the first story. The betrayed partner IS in extreme pain. Their life IS thrown upside down, and shattered. They ARE confused, and shocked, unsure of what to do. The person they trusted most has betrayed and lied to them.
Furthermore, this pain that the betrayed partner is feeling, was caused by the deliberate, and intentional actions of the straying partner. Just like throwing the glass, it was no accident. The straying partner could say that they didn’t intend to hurt the betrayed partner, but they know that their actions are likely to cause significant pain and damage to the relationship. Just like Bob knew that throwing the glass, even if it missed Susan completely, would still create a huge, dangerous, mess.
When couples seek help, sometimes in the form of self help books or websites, sometimes in the form of couples counseling, or friends and family; the betrayed spouse is usually urged to look into themselves and identify the ways they weren’t meeting the needs of their straying spouse. They are encouraged to look at how they could have been better, and encouraged to forgive the straying spouse.
During reconciliation, the betrayed spouse is usually encouraged to change themselves in order to create the conditions necessary for their straying spouse to not stray again. They seek to cause the straying spouse to remain faithful, by getting the betrayed spouse to change. Implying again that the betrayed spouse is part of the reason the straying spouse strayed. If only the betrayed spouse had anticipated and addressed all the concerns of the straying spouse before the affair, the straying spouse wouldn’t have chosen to cheat.
In other words they are encouraged to discover how they partially brought this betrayal and abuse on themselves. This is very wrong. The straying spouse knowingly chose to take these actions when they had many other options available to them.
No one would try and excuse a wife beater's reasons for beating his wife by saying "he did it because she wasn't meeting his needs". We wouldn't go to the abused woman and ask her to reflect on the ways she could have been better in the marriage, or what she could have done differently to make her abusive spouse happy. And we wouldn’t ask her to forgive him until he made significant changes in himself to become someone she is safe to be around again. Somehow that logic is reserved for intimate betrayal only.
But suppose that Susan had been giving Bob the wrong beverage for years, with Bob continuously telling her what he wanted, and Susan, for whatever reason, continued doing the wrong thing or nothing at all? Does that justify Bobs abusive behavior?
What if Bob was able to keep his glass breaking secret? Maybe he broke glass after glass in another room so Susan wouldn’t see it? Would her not finding out make it any less of a betrayal? Is it only abusive when she finds out about it?
Susans failure to meet Bobs clearly communicated needs should be addressed, but it doesn’t justify Bobs abusive behavior. It’s on Bob to address that missing need in a mature, non abusive way with Susan. If they can’t resolve the issue, whatever it’s core cause, and that need is a deal breaker for Bob, then peacefully dissolving their relationship is the better option.
No relationship can meet all the needs of both partners. Does that mean that every marriage is in one stage of pre-cheating or another? Each partner always on edge, hoping they are able to identify and address enough needs of the other partner to prevent them from choosing to cheat? No this is not the case. There are marriages that have significant difficulties, but neither partner cheats, and there are marriages that have very few issues, where one or both partners cheat.
It’s not about the marriage. It’s about the character of the people in the marriage. If someones character allows cheating to be an option, then it's possible regardless of the conditions of the marriage. If their character doesn't allow cheating to be an option, then it's not possible no matter how bad the marriage gets. Conditions in the marriage, including unmet needs, do not cause cheating.
5 comments posted: Saturday, November 16th, 2024
Weird Limbo
Hello again. It's been a bit since I posted last, and it's been a little over 6 months since D-day for me. I find myself in a strange kind of limbo that I'm trying to figure out. Maybe you guys can shed some light on things for me.
On D-day I immediately decided that I wanted to reconcile. I told her but had some conditions. The first being the affair must end fully and completely, and the second is she needs to start being 100% honest with me. In retrospect I think that was a mistake. I was in shock and the seriousness of the situation hadn't really sunk in yet. I should have probably waited to see if she was up for the task. But thats where we are at.
I immediately went into marriage repair mode (probably hysterical bonding actually). I spent a lot of energy trying to give her the things she said she was missing from our relationship. Things like opening doors, going on dates, spending time together, etc. I am a pretty nice person, and was generally VERY nice to her. I also spent a lot of energy trying to prevent contact with her affair partner, and get her to break it off fully. It took two and a half months for her to really break it off, and that only after I left (only overnight) and threatened divorce.
I have since come to the realization that I was trying to "fix" a marriage that she had already destroyed. I was trying to fix a memory. That and the realization that problems in the marriage DID NOT cause her to choose to have an affair. But thats a topic for another day.
In that two month period everything I asked her to do to help me trust her again she heavily resisted, and anything she did was only after me asking many times, and still with a lot of feet dragging.
After she officially broke it off with him, she started doing more of the things I wanted, still with resistance but not as much as before. Eventually she would do them though.
She is doing and saying a lot in support of our relationship. But the things she is not doing, or things she resists me on, are causing me to pause and reconsider if she is really as committed as she says she is.
First the good:
- She took, and passed, a lie detector test that I requested
- She has read a couple of books I suggested
- She is kind to me and leaves me little love notes or apology notes
- She wants to be close to me physically, and also makes it a point to include me in her plans, and also plans dates
- She says she loves me often
- She is still doing normal things around the house like she used to. Making dinner, cleaning things up, running the kids around etc. I do this stuff when I'm off work, but it often falls on her because I work all day
- She is planning long term things with me - showing that she views us as being together long term
- We spend a lot of time together. I really enjoy her company, and it's been nice getting back to that
- She installed a gps tracker app
- She gave me permission to look at her phone and read her messages or emails, to get on her computers, etc.
- She got rid of some physical reminders of the affair.
- She willingly suggested and is going to IC, and we were going to MC for a while (until I nixed that because I didn't like the way the therapist was handling it)
Now the not so good:
- Everything I can think of that I have asked her to do for me she has put up significant resistance on before doing it.
* It was two months before she took the lie detector test and that was with much stress and many objections.
* It also took me two months to convince her to read "The Courage to Stay", which I feel is a really appropriate book for us at that time.
* The next book was "How to Help your Spouse Heal from Your Affair", which she listened to on Audible right away and REALLY didn't like. I suggested that maybe it rubbed her the wrong way listening to it. I said I agree with like 98% of the book, and I bought her a physical copy, and asked her to read it and underline which parts specifically she didn't agree with. She absolutely refused to do that, handing the book back to me. 
* The tracking app only took 3 or 4 weeks to convince her to install.
* It took her 6 months to get rid of the physical reminders of the affair. And that only after I asked nearly a dozen times in that period with her finally promising to do it in October. She didn't do it in October, so I brought it up again complaining that she promised and didn't uphold her promise. Then she reluctantly gave them to me for disposal. I asked her to get rid of anything at all that reminded her of the affair, but she only gave me the things I explicitly knew about already. Nothing else. She semi-defiantly says "most of the things are in my head anyway, not physical"
- She is constantly complaining of feeling like she is barely able to keep her head above water, and is on the edge of breaking down anytime we have a discussion.
- She continues to bring up past grievances when ever we have difficult discussions. Even after we have discussed them at length, I have explained my side, apologized for anything I feel I can, and promised to do better. Yet they continue to come up with the same or greater emotional intensity.
- She maintains the view that our marriage had a "rift" that I was partially responsible for and that contributed to her affair. I resist her a lot here because I feel like it's blame shifting, marriages don't cause affairs, and also most of her complaints she never discussed until after the affair was revealed. I am willing to do things she need me to do, I was before the affair as well, but she never talked to me about this stuff before.
- She says she is "sorry she hurt me", but has never said "the affair was wrong, and I will never do it again". The closest I have gotten from her is "I will never have another affair because it has been so painful leaving my affair partner and seeing you in pain" 
- Most of the things to address the affair I have come up with. She doesn't usually come up with things on her own.
It seems like she just wants the affair to go away, and to be swept under the rug. This is something cannot do under any circumstances.
Anyway theres probably more I could write, but this is getting rather long.
The thing I'm trying to figure out is if these are bad signs that I should be more concerned about, or if she is on the path and I should be patient and let her make progress? Is this just me being nice again and ignoring bad signs? Or am I just being impatient and I should let things continue unfolding? My therapist says people need time to change, but I'm concerned that I just don't see a lot of change happening, and she is still resisting me on things.
I definitely don't see contrition, only remorse. But again that could simply be because this sucks and she regrets having to end the affair. Who knows.
22 comments posted: Thursday, November 14th, 2024
Reconciliation questions
It's coming up on the 6 month anniversary of D-day for me, and I've been thinking a lot about reconciliation and what I would like to see happen in our relationship.
A few questions are bouncing around in my head of late:
1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again? Am I just wasting both of our time trying to reconcile?
Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?
2. As I have said in a previous post, our couples therapist is not addressing the affair at all (going to find someone else), and my wife is doing a lot of the things recommended in the affair recovery books, not all, but a lot. I see her efforts, and appreciate them, but in the back of my mind I wonder if she is really digging deep to change, or if she is doing the superficial things in order to say she "gave it a good try".
Q: What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?
3. Based on our conversations, the affair for her was a very positive time. She has many fond memories of it. She has said many times that she is sorry she hurt me, and that if she could go back in time she would not do it again. She assures me that she would never cheat on me again because letting go of that relationship was so painful for her, and seeing my pain was so painful for her. However saying those things is not the same as saying "the affair was wrong, and I will never cheat on you again".
Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?
4. I love my wife, and really want to reconcile. The last few weeks I've been having a difficult time though. Every time I think positive things about her, the "she intentionally betrayed me" thoughts creep in and ruin my good mood. I'm having a difficult time getting past the idea that she intentionally had an affair, and that this affair really for all intents and purposes destroyed the part of our marriage that mattered - our vows to each other. Without vows we might as well just be friends with benefits.
Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
7 comments posted: Wednesday, October 16th, 2024
Couples Therapy
I am trying to decide if my wife (WS) and I (BS) need a new couples therapist or if I'm just making a big deal of nothing.
Back story:
My wife told me about her affair the end of April 2024. It was a year long emotional and physical affair, where they both said they loved the other. They had unprotected sex hundreds of times, which eventually resulted in a pregnancy and she had an abortion. Really difficult for me.
From the start I wanted to reconcile. For the first 6 weeks she had a really hard time breaking contact off with him, and he kept reaching out to her. It has really been hell for me, and only recently have I been able to think about other things some of the time.
She is also suffering a lot with her own issues and emotions surrounding the affair. Feeling lots of guilt for what she has done, mourning the loss of her relationship with him, mourning the loss of the baby she aborted, etc.
We both have triggers.
It makes for a lot of volatility when we have discussions. But also she has been really good to help me through my issues, and put my needs and the needs of our kids first. She is doing many of the steps that people recommend to reconcile.
Since the affair, my wife has continually said the affair is 100% her fault. But she also has been bringing up all sorts of things she is blaming me for not doing before the affair, or things that contributed to her having an affair, etc. Things that were almost never communicated prior to the affair. It seems like she is saying something like this for every thing she blames me for: "the affair is 100% my fault, however there were things you weren't doing that I was able to get from the affair, and are part of the reason it happened."
On the one hand I'm glad she is trying to explain why it happened to me. I do really want to understand that. On the other it seems like blame shifting her affair onto me. It's hard to tell which is which.
In the period from then to now we have tried three different couples therapists. The first one was horrible, the second one I liked because she seemed to be able to empathize with my predicament. My wife wanted to go with someone else though; the therapist we are currently seeing every two weeks.
My concerns:
This therapist is very knowledgeable and competent. I don't have any issues with that. But in our last three sessions he has pretty much skipped over the affair completely and wen't straight into using the Gottman methods of repairing relationships. We asked for Gottman techniques, and to get started repairing our relationship ASAP, so I'm glad to learn these skills, and maybe I just need to communicate what I want.
It just seems strange that a couples therapist seeing a couple because of infidelity hasn't yet addressed the issue directly. He's talked about trust in general and what it means to each of us. He's recommended some books, which we are reading. We worked on how we communicate better, which is a good thing.
However focussing only on marital issues we have, or had before the affair, feels to me very much like blaming the affair on our marital issues, and not on the decisions my wife made. Or maybe I'm just focussing too much on that and the way to repair our marriage is actually to fix those issues?
I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he's not addressing it directly because we are months into this process. We have had many discussions already, we have had full disclosure already, backed up with a lie detector test which I requested she take.
I expected that a couples therapist would work through and address the affair first, and then proceed on to things that strengthen the marriage.
However I've never been here before and thats why I'm seeking advice from everyone here.
Does it sound like we need a new therapist?
Should I bring up my concerns in couples therapy? (I also considered writing a letter to him alone to avoid stressing my wife out)
Am I focussing too much on the affair, and should really be focussed on repairing issues we had in our marriage instead?
23 comments posted: Thursday, September 26th, 2024
