SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hope, thanks so much for your answer and for your effort no to spoil me anything. I did read the books (I'm actually reading book 8).

I would like to quote Diana Gabaldon's words about this sensitive matter (sorry it is really long but interesting to read):

"In the books, we see Claire and Frank’s relationship only from Claire’s point of view. Which is understandably a trifle biased,following her return through the stones. (...)

Now, Claire disappears. No warning, no trace, no nothing. What do you reckon happened, when she didn’t come back? A police search, no leads-and probably deep suspicion of the husband, who is the Most Likely Suspect. So Frank’s left panicked, then grief-stricken, while probably being interrogated and threatened about his wife’s

disappearance. But this must obviously have all died down in the next three years, and Frank begins to rebuild his life.

Does the rebuilding involve any kind of relationship with women, or a woman? Quite possibly; he’s a handsome, personable man, with friends who would think it their duty to introduce him to women.

BUT.

Claire comes back. Filthy, malnourished, and hysterical, if not outright demented. And, of course, pregnant. She tells him an unbelievable story, presumably the product of a disordered mind, the result of whatever horrible abduction/captivity/rape has resulted in her present condition. She tells him to leave her.

Does he leave her? No. Does he produce another woman and explain that actually, dear, while you were gone, Mary and I. No. He replies shortly that no one but a cad would leave a woman in her condition.

So, OK. HE doesn’t think he’s a cad. Why on earth should anybody else?

He does stay with Claire, not only while she’s recovering, but thereafter. There’s no hint that he’s pursuing a love affair started while she was gone; in fact, he takes her to Boston, so that no hint of scandal will attend Bree’s birth. If he did have some relationship while she was gone, plainly he’s broken it off (and perhaps the

removal to Boston is to make such a break more definite-we don’t know, because we don’t know what he was doing during those three years).

All right. From this point on, Claire’s view of Frank is definitely suspect, because her own state of mind makes it impossible for her to

connect fully with him, save for brief interludes of tenderness, when they’re able to reach one another physically (like the night he makes

love to her on the floor of the nursery). Yes, their relationship is strained-we know that, because we see it. But the relationship of any

new parents is strained (believe me on this), even if the two parties aren’t on difficult terms to start with. And these two parties definitely are.

Claire thinks he may be having affairs, but she doesn’t ever have evidence of it. Either the guy is very dang good at hiding this stuff (and unfaithful spouses almost always give themselves away)-or he isn’t having affairs. He may well be seeking companionship, sympathy, and ego-reinforcement from other women (he ain’t gettin’ a lot of those things at home-but note that he isn’t leaving, either), but it’s

at least possible that he isn’t crossing the line into actual physical infidelity. Note that Claire says that now and then she forces her sexual attentions on him, trying to prove that he’s been with someone else (and thus unable to respond to her)-but that every time, he does respond to her, even if with mutual rage.

On the other hand, Frank knows beyond the shadow of a doubt that Claire’s been unfaithful to him. At first, he most likely thinks she’s been raped, but she goes on insisting on her absurd story. If it’s true in any way-then she did it on purpose. This can’t do his feelings any good. But he stays, because only a cad would abandon a pregnant

woman with no resources-and he isn’t a cad.

See, all these red-eyed readers are identifying with Claire (for the excellent reason that she’s telling the story)-but they’d do better to

watch Frank. He clearly has a code of honor, and by God, he’s sticking to it, dearly though it may cost him. Would a man with this kind of

code then proceed to have promiscuous affairs?

Maybe-but maybe not. His own image of himself as an honorable man is probably as valuable to him as Claire is, at this point; if he won’t abandon her, he won’t abandon that image, either."

Again, sorry, it is too long but worth reading.

[This message edited by Esteban at 6:57 PM, July 19th (Tuesday)]

Thanks for the additional cut and paste info, Esteban.

That being said, just spending some time on this site can answer the question posited:

Would a man with this kind of code then proceed to have promiscuous affairs?

In a word, YES.

...and didn't Claire and Frank have a huge argument on the night he died (I haven't actually read this yet for myself, but have only heard tell of it) and Claire accused Frank of cheating and he did not flat out deny her accusations--which an innocent person would have done, and what a cheater would usually do, too-- but instead said something like "I didn't think you'd care enough." Granted, nothing definitive in black and white, but I drew my conclusions from it

[This message edited by Hope2B at 10:50 PM, July 19th (Tuesday)]

Hope, I am loving this exchange of opinions. So, if you don't mind I would to bring my point of view.

**SPOILERS AHEAD****

First, Diana Gabaldon has said that Frank did not cheat on Claire but we are going to negate that for the sake of this argument.

Even if Frank did cheat on Claire we have to realize a few things. One being that Claire was gone for three years and even if he thought her story was crazy as shit, she came back to him, alone and pregnant with another man's child, wearing another man's ring telling him this cockamamie story of how she fell through time.

They were not especially intimate after their return, by Claire's own words, so he was obviously a lonely man. Yes, adultery is not a good thing, but to argue he cheated on her and to make him a villain for it is silly considering she, essentially cheated on him for three years.

Frank died (maybe) having another woman (or women if you want) but he also had a wife who was in love with another. I know when Claire and Jamie die they will have the memory of a great love and children. Frank died with none of that. I know he loved Bree, but he died without knowing, as Jamie said, what it meant to look upon your child's face and see yourself reflected there. And the love of a woman.

Frank and Claire both said shitty things to each other and he accused her of infidelity, and said he was taking Bree away from her. By this point, Claire and Frank were less a couple and more like an arguing set of siblings, constantly on the end of each other's rope. Honestly, I do kind of blame Clare for their bad marriage. They were both yelling and screaming at one another. He apparently thought Claire was having an affair with her friend Joe Abernathy. It was a shitty thing to say but Claire said shitty things too and once more Frank is vilified for daring to do the same thing Claire is doing. It doesn't make it right but then again, neither of them were truly right in how they handled the situation. Both showing impulsiveness and brashness in the face of anger.

I think Frank didn't denied in the heat of all those feelings. He wanted to hurt her in the same way she had hurted him. Orm aybe he basically admits that he cheated to get her to show she cared. Shame she didn't. I know he stayed because of Bree but I always kind of wonder if he also stayed because he was holding out and hoping for change in Claire. I think she was selfish for staying with Frank out of convenience.

I hate hate HATE infidelity but I have to say that I feel really bad for Frank and I don't necessarily believe he would have been unfaithful (if he was) to Clare had she loved him like she had before Jamie came into the picture.

20 years with very little sex in a marriage who is obviously in love with another man, whom you don't even really get along with anymore. That's a really damn long time. Claire was physically lost to him. Well, she was also emotionally lost to Frank. I don't blame him.

::spoiler alert::

But... Claire admits in one of the books that various women approached her through the years asking her to leave Frank.

I went and found where Esteban C&Ped that excerpt from and DG never says Frank didn't cheat. She said she left it up to the reader to decide how they interpreted the evidence to hand. She said he tried to do the honorable thing and that he viewed himself as an honorable person. That does not necessarily preclude him from cheating. Unless DG stated conclusively elsewhere, this defense of Frank doesn't state unequivocally that he didn't cheat.

Additionally, Claire does tell Frank she doesn't love him as much as she loved Jamie. From later in the Defending Frank excerpt:

"You note that she

apologizes to Frank only once, in their initial conversation after her

return-at which point, she’s completely hysterical. She makes it clear

that she loves Jamie more than him, even if Jamie is dead-this is Not

All That Good for a marriage."

Esteban, here is another bit of input that speaks to Frank's being unfaithful, this taken directly from Voyager. It's written in Claire's voice, in the first person narrative.

I've put in bold or in italics the sections that speak to Frank's infidelity. This has been edited for length.

<begin>

"I want to take Brianna with me.”

I stopped dead, the cold in the room suddenly coalescing into a small lump of suspicion in the pit of my stomach.

“She can’t go now; she’s only a semester from graduation. Surely you can wait until we can join you in the summer? I’ve put in for a long vacation then, and perhaps…”

“I’m going now. For good. Without you.”

I pulled away and sat up, turning on the light. Frank lay blinking up at me, dark hair disheveled. It had gone gray at the temples, giving him a distinguished air that seemed to have alarming effects on the more susceptible of his female students. I felt quite astonishingly composed.

“Why now, all of a sudden? The latest one putting pressure on you, is she?”

The look of alarm that flashed into his eyes was so pronounced as to be comical. I laughed, with a noticeable lack of humor.

“You actually thought I didn’t know? God, Frank! You are the most…oblivious man!”

He sat up in bed, jaw tight.

“I thought I had been most discreet.”

“You may have been at that,” I said sardonically. “I counted six over the last ten years—if there were really a dozen or so, then you were quite the model of discretion.”

His face seldom showed great emotion, but a whitening beside his mouth told me that he was very angry indeed.

“This one must be something special,” I said, folding my arms and leaning back against the headboard in assumed casualness. “But still—why the rush to go to England now, and why take Bree?”

“She can go to boarding school for her last term,” he said shortly. “Be a new experience for her.”

“Not one I expect she wants,” I said. “She won’t want to leave her friends, especially not just before graduation. And certainly not to go to an English boarding school!” I shuddered at the thought. I had come within inches of being immured in just such a school as a child...

“A little discipline never hurt anyone,” Frank said. He had recovered his temper, but the lines of his face were still tight. “Might have done you some good.” He waved a hand, dismissing the topic. “Let that be. Still, I’ve decided to go back to England permanently. I’ve a good position offered at Cambridge, and I mean to take it up. You won’t leave the hospital, of course. But I don’t mean to leave my daughter behind.”

“Your daughter?” I felt momentarily incapable of speech. So he had a new job all set, and a new mistress to go along. He’d been planning this for some time, then. A whole new life—but not with Brianna.

“My daughter,” he said calmly. “You can come to visit whenever you like, of course…”

“You…bloody…bastard!” I said.

“Do be reasonable, Claire.” He looked down his nose, giving me Treatment A, long-suffering patience, reserved for students appealing failing grades. “You’re scarcely ever home. If I’m gone, there will be no one to look after Bree properly.”

“You talk as though she’s eight, not almost eighteen! For heaven’s sake, she’s nearly grown.”

“All the more reason she needs care and supervision,” he snapped. “If you’d seen what I’d seen at the university—the drinking, the drugging, the…”

“I do see it,” I said through my teeth. “At fairly close range in the emergency room. Bree is not likely to—”

“She damn well is! Girls have no sense at that age—she’ll be off with the first fellow who—”

“Don’t be idiotic! Bree’s very sensible. Besides, all young people experiment, that’s how they learn. You can’t keep her swaddled in cotton wool all her life.”

“Better swaddled than f**king a ... !” he shot back. A mottled red showed faintly over his cheekbones. “Like mother, like daughter, eh? But that’s not how it’s going to be, damn it, not if I’ve anything to say about it!”

I heaved out of bed and stood up, glaring down at him.

“You,” I said, “have not got one bloody, filthy, stinking thing to say, about Bree or anything else!” I was trembling with rage, and had to press my fists into the sides of my legs to keep from striking him. “You have the absolute, unmitigated gall to tell me that you are leaving me to live with the latest of a succession of mistresses, and then imply that I have been having an affair with Joe Abernathy? That is what you mean, isn’t it?”

He had the grace to lower his eyes slightly.

“Everyone thinks you have,” he muttered. “You spend all your time with the man (this references a colleague of Claire's, with whom she interned and works at the same hospital) . It’s the same thing, so far as Bree is concerned. Dragging her into…situations, where she’s exposed to danger, and…and to those sorts of people…”

“Black people, I suppose you mean?”

“I damn well do,” he said, looking up at me with eyes flashing. “It’s bad enough to have the Abernathys to parties all the time, though at least he’s educated…”

...

“... She’s going to England with me.”

“Not if she doesn’t want to,” I said, with great finality.

No doubt feeling that his position put him at a disadvantage, Frank climbed out of bed and began groping for his slippers.

“I don’t need your permission to take my daughter to England,” he said. “And Bree’s still a minor; she’ll go where I say. I’d appreciate it if you’d find her medical records; the new school will need them.”

“Your daughter?” I said again. I vaguely noticed the chill in the room, but was so angry that I felt hot all over. “Bree’s my daughter, and you’ll take her bloody nowhere!”

“You can’t stop me,” he pointed out, with aggravating calmness, picking up his dressing gown from the foot of the bed.

“The hell I can’t,” I said. “You want to divorce me? Fine. Use any grounds you like—with the exception of adultery, which you can’t prove, because it doesn’t exist. But if you try to take Bree away with you, I’ll have a thing or two to say about adultery. Do you want to know how many of your discarded mistresses have come to see me, to ask me to give you up?”

His mouth hung open in shock.

“I told them all that I’d give you up in a minute,” I said, “if you asked.” I folded my arms, tucking my hands into my armpits. I was beginning to feel the chilliness again. “I did wonder why you never asked—but I supposed it was because of Brianna.”

His face had gone quite bloodless now, and showed white as a skull in the dimness on the other side of the bed.

“Well,” he said, with a poor attempt at his usual self-possession, “I shouldn’t have thought you minded. It’s not as though you ever made a move to stop me.”

I stared at him, completely taken aback.

“Stop you?” I said. “What should I have done? Steamed open your mail and waved the letters under your nose? Made a scene at the faculty Christmas party? Complained to the Dean?”

His lips pressed tight together for a moment, then relaxed.

“You might have behaved as though it mattered to you,” he said quietly.

“It mattered.” My voice sounded strangled.

He shook his head, still staring at me, his eyes dark in the lamplight.

“Not enough.” He paused, face floating pale in the air above his dark dressing gown, then came round the bed to stand by me.

<end>

[This message edited by Hope2B at 3:11 PM, July 21st (Thursday)]

what I find interesting is that women don't seem to have any sympathy for Frank.

I have my theories about this, but I don't want to ruin your fun.

I actually did feel bad for Frank...until I found out he cheated then tried to take Brianna from Claire. 99% of my sympathy for him went out the window at that point.

I will say that I gained back a good measure of respect for him after finding out (from Brianna's stories) that Frank made sure she was trained in weapons, horseback riding, etc- all things she'd need to know if she were living "back in time".

so.. she can cheat, have another man's child, and love another man more than her husband. but the fact that Frank may have cheated kind of even's things out.

let me ask you, if your husband got another woman pregnant, would that bother you? and then, for him to obviously and openly love the other woman more than you? what would you do?

just asking..

Mike7,

Remember I haven't read the books, and am only halfway through "Voyager." I am, however, caught up with the televised series.

Claire didn't cheat.

She was thrown backwards in time, having no hope of returning, then, not sure if she *could* return through the stones to the same time from whence she was taken, or if the time travel would also include time's passage as parallels or be amiss one way or another.

She made a decision to not go through the stones when she could have done so, and committed herself to Jamie and all that meant in terms of their lives together, so yes, she did love Jamie more than Frank and so she stayed. The only reason she did travel through the stones was to protect their unborn child.

Frank seemed to be a serial cheater, but hey, I don't want to spoil your fun.

[This message edited by Hope2B at 9:22 PM, July 28th (Thursday)]

“The hell I can’t,” I said. “You want to divorce me? Fine. Use any grounds you like—with the exception of adultery, which you can’t prove, because it doesn’t exist. But if you try to take Bree away with you, I’ll have a thing or two to say about adultery. Do you want to know how many of your discarded mistresses have come to see me, to ask me to give you up?”

His mouth hung open in shock.

“I told them all that I’d give you up in a minute,” I said, “if you asked.” I folded my arms, tucking my hands into my armpits. I was beginning to feel the chilliness again. “I did wonder why you never asked—but I supposed it was because of Brianna.”

His face had gone quite bloodless now, and showed white as a skull in the dimness on the other side of the bed.

“Well,” he said, with a poor attempt at his usual self-possession, “I shouldn’t have thought you minded. It’s not as though you ever made a move to stop me.”

I stared at him, completely taken aback.

“Stop you?” I said. “What should I have done? Steamed open your mail and waved the letters under your nose? Made a scene at the faculty Christmas party? Complained to the Dean?”

His lips pressed tight together for a moment, then relaxed.

“You might have behaved as though it mattered to you,” he said quietly.

This is from Hope's post above and taken directly from the books.

Frank DID cheat. Not "may have", but DID.

Claire was in a literal life or death situation. She didn't know that she could survive going through the stones to get back to Frank. Yes, she loved Jamie, but all of that were factors that went into her decision to stay with Jamie.

Mike7 - have you read the books?

lol, that got a heated response. Look, I'm not upset, I'm curious why you are. I just made an observation that there doesn't seem to be much sympathy for Frank. You write post after post about why Frank is a bad guy, but no analysis of Claire's actions. After all, Claire's definitely a cheater. emotionally and physically. but she couldn't help herself because she loved Jaime. Doesn't that seem like a familiar argument around here?

How about you answer the questions I posed to you first Gabybaby?

How would you feel if your husband got another woman pregnant? How would you feel if he obviously loved the other woman more than you and even told you? I'd assume you'd be devastated. Frank doesn't get any credit for that? too bad Frank?

and even though the author said she was letting the reader decide whether Frank cheated for themselves, you disagree. You have decided he cheated. not only that, he's a serial cheater. why doesn't she divorce him then? she's a strong woman right? Personally, I think the author added those details because even SHE felt bad for Frank. She wanted to make him look like he deserved the things that happen to him. balance things out.

but that's fine.

Let's get back to Claire. do you consider her a fine woman?

she chose Jaime, even though she was married. That's not cheating right? That's a divorce to you. She couldn't help herself. She loved him. how would you feel if that happened to you? And then she only went through the stones to save her unborn child. Ok....but then she accepted Frank's help? Is that what you would do? Assuming you'd betray your husband because you loved someone else, would you still feel ok about turning to your betrayed husband for help? and stay with him? I've got to say, I wouldn't do that, but maybe women look at this differently.

don't you think an honorable woman who loved someone else would divorce him? leave him. realize that whatever his faults are, he doesn't deserve this?

of the women on this site that got pregnant from another man, the ones that wanted to stay with their BHs sure seem a lot more humble than Claire.

But maybe I missed something. Did Frank beat her? Is he an alcoholic? a drug addict? did he turn her away? were there pages and pages of nasty, snarly, emotional abuse? I mean, Claire's strong right? If that happened, why wouldn't she leave?

or... do you think it's fair to treat someone as plan b while you long for someone else? can't you imagine the lost look in Claire's eyes as she's thinking of her long lost Jaime? for years and years. I guess you wouldn't mind if that happened to you?

I think it's quite an irony, particularly on this site, that women would feel that way.

You don't have to answer. I realize it's just a story that you enjoy. I get it. I have no problem with that. as I said above, I think it's interesting how little sympathy Frank seems to get. He's a non-entity. A person without feelings.

eta - Gaby, I read the first book and enjoyed it. I liked the adventure. I haven't read the others. and I didn't particularly like Frank either.

[This message edited by mike7 at 11:19 PM, July 28th (Thursday)]

It makes me sad to see folks tying this back and equating it to our real life situations. Seriously, the storyline has introduced a Mythical situation of Time travel that suspends reality making things that would not be acceptable by a likable character possible.

If SI was a forum for people who had survived a relative being brutally murdered in the street. Would we really be on here debating the Twilight Series and how wrong it was for Bella to fall in Love with a Vampire who she knows had killed people in the past because we all know killing is wrong? They have intentionally created a fantasy scenario to captivate us by flipping our normal position towards a murder.

Yes, cheating is always wrong. Yes, both characters have cheated. But the storyline has intentionally introduced a non-existent fantasy scenario to captivate us by flipping our normal perception about these behaviors or people because of the fantasy circumstances.

There is also nothing wrong with saying 'No, neither of the character did anything wrong' because although cheating is always wrong in OUR WORLD. The characters do not live in our world. They live in the fantasy world where Time Travel or Magic happens- and like a ripple in the water, it impacts other things including the moral logic that should be applied to downstream events.

just my two cents.

P.S. Can someone tell me where I can get me some of that Jamie? He is like the Krispy Cream of men.

It makes me sad to see folks tying this back and equating it to our real life situations.

that's a good point. maybe this storyline shouldn't be at this site at all? there are BHs here that have wives that have been impregnated by other men and have to listen to stories of star-crossed lovers in real life. I don't know. I'm just defending my first post where I mentioned that I find it interesting that Frank gets so little sympathy.

if we are going to discuss this, I don't feel bad for voicing my opinion and challenging the assumption that

Frank is bad

Claire is good.

[This message edited by mike7 at 8:31 AM, July 29th (Friday)]

Mike7, I'd suggest reading the rest of the series then we can debate the merits of each of the fictional characters.

In the meantime, try not to take them so seriously. Your responses are coming across as though you're taking this personally.

MMF - I read the first book in this series when I was about 19yrs old and have been reading them all at least once a year, lol. I loooooved Jamie when I was 19. Then as I got older, I started to understand his warts as well as his charm (as with the other characters too). I find the series very entertaining and though I've read them over and over, always manage to find something new to chew on, hehehe.

gaby - good advice. I think you're probably right.

so.. she can cheat, have another man's child, and love another man more than her husband. but the fact that Frank may have cheated kind of even's things out.

First off, Claire and Frank's marriage was shaky at best, due to long separations during the war. They were "re-connecting" when Claire went through the stones. And yes, "technically" she did cheat on a husband who wouldn't be born for over 200 years. She had no idea if she was stuck there for good or not at that time. I wouldn't have blamed Frank if he had met someone and started a new life with her while Claire was with Jaime. And who knows maybe he did see other women. But when she came back, he stuck by her as best he could. I have to say I have a lot of respect for him.

let me ask you, if your husband got another woman pregnant, would that bother you? and then, for him to obviously and openly love the other woman more than you? what would you do?

If I was "missing" for several years and then popped up out of the blue, and my husband had a new woman and baby on the way, I would bow out of their lives, especially if I was pregnant and in love with someone else.

just asking..

Edited: To answer the original poster's question, it's Jaime, Frank sees.

[This message edited by SpecialK at 3:11 PM, July 30th (Saturday)]

Someone else mentioned Diana Gabaldon's FB page. It's awesome. She very regularly posts excepts from the next book and other things she's working on. She occasionally "explains" things as well.

I highly recommend it.

Another superFAN here too. I've read the first 2 books and started watching the series. I'm almost to WentWorth prison but very scared to watch it (because I remember it well in the book) now that I'm on SI and everything is different. Also, I feel like my WH's actions kinda ruined my love of Outlander because it ruined my enjoyment of everything and basically now the love scenes make me cry. I'm still working through this of course and am early, but it's been fun reading most (not the spoiler stuff) of this thread for a change.