SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So, I'm not in what I would call a serious relationship by any means. We met for the first time face to face on June 10th. We've been texting and chatting for about a week and a half longer, so just a shade over three and a half weeks at this point. We matched on a dating app, and hit it off conversationally, and managed to meet for lunch.

She's totally not my usual physical type. She's a little big bigger of a girl when I normally go for petite ladies, and she is literally the first woman I have ever dated that is younger than me (most of my girlfriends (and my cheating STBXW) were all older than my by a year or two. I'm a few years older than the lady I'm dating now.

She was incredibly nervous when meeting me, but we both agreed that we'd like to have more dates like that.

On the 17th, she invited me to her house to watch a movie. We made it a game of me finding the right part of town based on clues in our conversations, and I was close. We sat on her couch and watched a movie while snuggling (Lucky Number Slevin, good film, all star cast, I recommend it), and then just talked for two more hours. On the way out the door, there was that moment, that pregnant pause, where we both stopped, held each others's eyes for a minute, and it felt right, so I went in to give her a quick kiss. Before I could, though, she ducked her chin down and just gave me a really close, tight hug instead. I left her place at 2:00 AM feeling like an asshole, like I'd overstepped my bounds. We texted more until about 3:30 and went to sleep.

The next day, she texted me that she HAD really wanted to kiss me too, but she wanted to be up front and honest; the reason why her last relationship ended was because her partner cheated, and the way she found out was that she thought she had a horrible strep infection, but it turned out it was oral herpes, brought home by him from an affair partner. I told her I understood and didn't judge her for it, and really appreciated her honesty

Since then, I've been to her place two more times. It's always the same thing; I show up, we chat for too long, then put on a movie and hold each other while sitting on her couch.

I can't even begin to describe what it's like. My ex refused to touch me unless we were having sex, then it was just during the act and then no more. Said the feeling of skin on skin made her uncomfortable. So we never snuggled, we never held hands, she'd never just reach out and rub my shoulder or anything.

This lady reaches for my hand, strokes my arm, leans against me and it's like I'm getting a drink of water when I was dying of dehydration. I can be exhausted from a day in my woodshop, spend the evening with her, and drive home energized. In fact, I got home from her place an hour and a half ago and I'm wide awake at 2:35 AM.

But.

I don't feel a romantic spark for her. Like, I know it's super early (three and a half weeks is nothing), and I know that my understanding of WHAT a romantic spark even IS, is obviously skewed or broken. Totally not in love with this woman.

Like, despite her not being my preferred body type, I would 100% sleep with her if she was willing and enthusiastic. We haven't broached that subject yet, and I am content to wait (hell, it's been over a year now, so who even gives a fuck anymore). Even if it's not full sex, foreplay would be a blast, and I know we'd both enjoy ourselves. She has made it plain that she finds me attractive, and while I don't think she's a supermodel, I am attracted enough to her that it would not be a chore (I know I sound kind of shallow here, but frankly, her physical appearance isn't what is making me attracted to her. No other way to be but honest).

But then there's the herpes thing. I was under the impression for 17 years that my ex had it, and we were just careful; if she looked like she was having a flare up, we didn't have sex. She claims now that she never had it, and that she got tested years ago and was confirmed not to have it; I was unaware of any such test, and she used the excuse of an outbreak multiple times to shut down intimacy. Point is, I whought I was going to be with my ex for the rest of my life, and I was okay with it if I contracted the virus too.

But I've been tested (did the whole gamut after DDay2: Electric Boogaloo) and I am completely free and clear of any STDs. I'd very much like to stay that way, but I can see that we are slowly progressing towards the realm of physical activities. When she rests her hand on my leg, it's closer to the 'finish line.' When we laugh and tease with each other, the joking is getting more risque. When I get ready to go home after our movies, she -wants- to ask me to stay, but I gently suggest that since she has work in the morning, she should get some rest.

She doesn't have an active outbreak right now. Her virus is oral, not genital. I haven't quizzed her on it, of course, because I want to be sensitive to her obvious discomfort on the matter. I am well aware of safety precautions to be taken (condoms, medication, etcetera) in the event that we do become intimate.

If I continue this relationship with this woman, I have no doubt that we will sleep together. At this point, it just seems to be a matter of time before we are both comfortable with it (despite being willing, I'm still not 100% comfortable with the idea of sleeping with someone other than the woman I was married to... it's an alien concept). If I were certain that, right now, I was SURE I would love this woman and spent the rest/most of my life with her, then I wouldn't care.

However... if that is NOT the case, then I'd really rather not bring any hitch-hikers along with me to another relationship. But where's the balance? I don't want to just bail from her as soon as she opened up to me and was honest. I don't want to make her feel dirty or discarded or lesser. I might not -love- her, but I do care about her as a person, and I do like her beyond that. I don't want to hurt her feelings. And I do genuinely enjoy spending time with her.

But like I said, if we do keep this up, eventually, she will ask me to stay over, and I will say yes. And I can (and will) be as careful as possible. But it's still a risk.

This... this is all so very weird and alien to me. I don't know what to do.

From what I understand, like 98% of the adult population of the planet tests positive for oral herpes (HSV1). Most people don't know they have it unless they are specifically tested for it. I found out I had it in 2008 when pregnant with my first child, as it was standard to be tested for everything while pregnant. I never had any cold sores or anything. STBX used to get cold sores in college during exams because of stress, but hasn't had one in almost 30 years.

Chances are, this woman you are dating had it long before her husband's affair. Extreme stress of the situation could have triggered an outbreak. A physician told me most of us get it in childhood. Two of my three children have already had cold sores.

Have you been specifically tested for HSV-1? Standard STD panels don't generally include that, because most people already have it.

[This message edited by WhoTheBleep at 7:05 AM, June 25th (Thursday)]

I agree with the comment above. Most people have HSV-1 and about 20 percent of the population has HSV-2. You have to have a blood test to confirm the antibodies. Most of the time providers don't test for it because it is so common and the stigma of the virus makes it difficult for patients. Many people who are positive with HSV1 or HSV2 don't realize they have it.

There are prescription drugs to take that significantly reduce the risk of transmission.

I can be exhausted from a day in my woodshop, spend the evening with her, and drive home energized.

There are many of us who fall for people who weren't our types. Many times what we are attracted to changes. A lot of the physical things fade and we find we are attracted to someone's character, their humor, their kindness, whatever.

I have seen many SI stories of folks ended up with someone totally opposite of their 'norm'. Many time we realize that is good since our 'norm' didn't work out so hot before

I can't get a good sense if you think you could fall for her (and I don't think you know either) or if this woman is just a Miss Right-Now for you.

If she is the latter, please make sure you guys are on the same page. That she is into a FWB arrangement and that she isn't falling for you. You do not want to break someone's heart if you are just not into a serious R with her and she is with you.

This is nothing that has to be decided this second. As you said, you only just had a first date barely 2 weeks ago. You are WAY early into it.

And I agree with what others stated about oral herpes. When I had my screenings, they actually re-did the herpes because mine was negative and they said they never see that (and thought it was an error). So chances are high that even if you are negative, your past partners were not. My ex was very prone to cold sores and I never got herpes from him. I think this woman is carrying a lot of guilt from her ex's herpes when it is really very common. Kudos to her for sharing this information with you. She sounds like a lovely person.

Good to hear from you Incarnate! Sounds like you are doing so much better these days

Hmm. Three weeks is soon. Like... really soon to be having 'serious' conversations. That being said, I do think it is important to make sure you are on the same page.

The 'spark'. If it isn't there, it isn't there is what I believe. Personally, I can't remember a time where that spark was ever delayed in showing up for me. If you aren't feeling it, that is okay. But if you aren't and she IS... that's a recipe for trouble and heartache.

If you aren't feeling it, be honest. Truly - honesty is the best policy. Don't keep going on dates and such and trying to force yourself into feeling that spark because IMHO that is leading her on unless you have a frank and open conversation with her about where you're at. As much as it might sting to know it, I wouldn't want a guy sleeping with me because I was attractive enough for it not to feel like a chore.

Most importantly - how you are feeling is perfectly ok. You have a long history with the x to overcome and a lot of habits (suppressing feelings, taking crumbs, etc) you developed with her as survival mechanisms that probably won't serve you anymore in your future. You deserve a partner that is crazy about you that you are crazy about in return. Don't settle on just okay. Shoot for amazing. You deserve that.

I would suggest that as long as the two of you are enjoying yourselves, keep doing so. You never know where the relationship will lead. You may at some point decide you don't want to date anymore, and that's fine. But you may also find a great friend.

Your post brought back some cool memories of how I felt at first with the man who became my 2nd H . He was so kind...patient...funny...had so many attributes EXCEPT there was no "spark". We were honest with each other...and he said he understood. He just enjoyed being with me...even if all we had was a friendship. I REALLY wanted to feel something romantic toward him...but it just wasn't there.

He was not the body type I was attracted to either. He was too skinny...yet intellectually we were very compatible. We started seeing each other approximately 3 months after my H left me for the second adultery co-conspirator I caught him with.

Around Christmas...about 4 months into our friendship/relationship...we went to his parents' house. One of his presents was a shirt. He took his shirt off to put on the shirt he got for Christmas...and I saw how RIPPED he was! My loins started burning !!! Oh...my..gosh!!! INSTANTLY I was in LUST for him...and I could no longer see what it was that I DIDN'T like in him before!!! That attraction for him stayed strong for over 30 years...until he confessed to his A. Thankfully though it has come back .

We were friends first...and I am glad that we started out that way . To ME...if I am in a situation to have to do this again...I definitely want to be friends like this first .

I hope nothing but the BEST for you !!!

@WhoTheBleep

Have you been specifically tested for HSV-1? Standard STD panels don't generally include that, because most people already have it.

When i got tested, I know that I specifically asked about HSV-1 and HSV-1, because I do know about them and their differences. I submitted two urine samples and a blood sample, and asked specifically to test for everything that could be tested for, and everything came back negative. I can't remember the details right now, but I remember it was quite the list.

@EvenKeel

When I had my screenings, they actually re-did the herpes because mine was negative and they said they never see that (and thought it was an error). So chances are high that even if you are negative, your past partners were not. My ex was very prone to cold sores and I never got herpes from him. I think this woman is carrying a lot of guilt from her ex's herpes when it is really very common. Kudos to her for sharing this information with you. She sounds like a lovely person.

For sure. I've only ever been with my STBXW, though I know for a fact at least one of her partners had an STD or two (rumors of herpes and admitted Hep A during the affair period). Again, it's nothing that I am going to judge her (or most people) for, but it is still something I'd like to be smart and conscious of.

And she is absolutely a lovely person. She is nervous, which makes me cautious, but she is a very genuine and wholesome feeling person, and I really, really need that in my life. It's part of why I am being cautious and somewhat analytical. I don't want to dive into a relationship with both feet when it wouldn't be the best thing for both of us. However, how do you -know- if it's the best thing? You don't until you give it a chance.

@EllieKMAS

Hmm. Three weeks is soon. Like... really soon to be having 'serious' conversations. That being said, I do think it is important to make sure you are on the same page.

Exactly my feelings. We've only really just started spending time together, and I am wary of rushing things. I'm keeping it casual for now... casual lunches, casual movie nights, casual cuddling, and judging by how it's progressing, before long, it -will- result in casual sex. Like I said, she is slowly growing bolder, and if I have learned one thing from the seventeen years of gaslighting and emotional abuse from my ex, it's that my instincts are, every single time, without fail, spot on, nail-on-the-head hammer strike accurate.

So I'm still maintaining my caution, because I don't want to bust in doors with overconfidence. I'm taking it easy and being cool, because at this point, I don't want to come off too strong, and this is the first seriously-not-serious time I've spent with a woman where a relationship is a distinct possibility. And JFC, it's fuckin' weird.

The 'spark'. If it isn't there, it isn't there is what I believe. Personally, I can't remember a time where that spark was ever delayed in showing up for me. If you aren't feeling it, that is okay. But if you aren't and she IS... that's a recipe for trouble and heartache.

If you aren't feeling it, be honest. Truly - honesty is the best policy. Don't keep going on dates and such and trying to force yourself into feeling that spark because IMHO that is leading her on unless you have a frank and open conversation with her about where you're at. As much as it might sting to know it, I wouldn't want a guy sleeping with me because I was attractive enough for it not to feel like a chore.

The spark, for me, is an odd thing. I felt it for two girlfriends when I was REALLY young and dumb, and those relationships were both disasters. I felt it for my ex when I was 16, and it held on until last august. I felt it die (which was staggering, to say the least). I think that the 'spark' is what made me rush into each of those relationships blindly and, yeah, there was a LOT of early passion, and it kept me holding on each time beyond when I should have let go. So not feeling the spark right now doesn't really worry me, it's just... different. Entering into a relationship consciously instead of blindly is a weird way to do things.

As for how I am attracted to her... frankly, it's obnoxious that as a writer I feel that my words are insufficient to really explain how I feel. I don't want to get too graphic or anything, because this is NOT the place for it, but a part of my attraction to a woman is, can I see myself being an active and enthusiastic sexual partner with them? My tastes generally run towards thin women. Petite, brunette, basically everything my STBXW is physically.

The lady I am seeing right now is not most of those things. She is not slender or petite, she is a bit overweight, but yaknow what, I am too. She is shorter than I am, which is nice, and she has gorgeous brown eyes, which I never really saw as all that attractive before (I went for blue or green eyes before), but look really nice on her. They are vibrant and kind and full of life and happiness and they lack the baggage, pain, and spite that I see in my ex's hazel/green eyes.

I guess what I was trying to say is that I am realistic about how I see her and I am not holding any unrealistic standards against her. Would I honestly prefer someone who looked like Selma Hayak, Michelle Trachtenburg, or Natalie Dormer? I mean, yaknow, honestly, probably. But that's not realistic and I'd be doing this woman and any other partner a disservice by holding them up in comparison to ANYONE else, let alone global supermodels and actresses. Can I see myself being a kind, considerate, and generous lover with this woman? Yeah, I can.

Most importantly - how you are feeling is perfectly ok. You have a long history with the x to overcome and a lot of habits (suppressing feelings, taking crumbs, etc) you developed with her as survival mechanisms that probably won't serve you anymore in your future. You deserve a partner that is crazy about you that you are crazy about in return. Don't settle on just okay. Shoot for amazing. You deserve that.

Michelangelo has a quote; mankind's greatest folly lies not in aiming too high and missing his mark, it is in aiming too low and achieving it.

I think I have something good, or the potential for something good, with this woman, I am just cautious about jumping into something too soon that I am not ready for, and hurting her as a result. Me, I'm sturdy, I'm stable, and I'm comfortable by myself. I have lots of hobbies and activities and a new business I am starting to keep me busy, not to mention five girls, my job, and a LOT more books to write. When she asked if the herpes diagnosis would be a dealbreaker, I honestly and thoughtfully considered the question, and my response was that even if we were not romantically compatible, I would like very much to be friends, as adults, since she is a fantastic person and I would like to think that we could both be mature about it. I can tell she is very attracted to me (I may be a man, but I'm not that blind, lol), and I want to be respectful of that and definitely not take advantage of it, but I'd also like to enjoy being a single person for a bit, in that if another adult and I decide to do adult things together, well, fuck the po-po, we do what we want. I think that will help me immensely in severing what few emotional, physical, and psychological ties I still have with my ex. But I also want to do it considerately and conscientiously with whoever I end up doing it with. I don't want to use anyone, but I worry that by having the goal and being conscious of what these activities will mean to me, there will be some of that that I cannot avoid.

That went on longer than I meant it to.

I am going to go over to her house again tonight, once she has her kids in bed and asleep, and mine are settled down enough to not be more than one person can handle. We're about halfway through the Umbrella Academy. I've seen it twice, this is her first viewing. We'll be snuggled up on the couch, we'll be holding each other close, and if I'm not mistaken, we'll inch closer and closer to when she asks me to stay over. I am not going to push it, but I am prepared to accept it when she is ready.

I guess I'll figure out what that means between us once/if it happens.

Incarnate; I'd say go for it with this one. Let the test run go a little longer. My new girlfriend who I love and adore is not my typical type either. My ex was blond and blue eyes, and my new GF is a brunette. She is a beautiful, not entitled bitch like my ex either.

I wasn't sure of what was going to transpire when we first got together, but she is pretty amazing. She's great with my kids, and my family. When my former ex was boring and just sat in the corner at parties, my new GF will text with my family and gets along well with them. No pressure from me, it just happens. All this to say, give it a run Incarnate. I went thru some of this stuff during your time frame on this board, and I'm also from CALI. You know the sample of possible dating partners in our state is many, so if this one doesn't pan out for the long term, there will be plenty of others. But if this one has a good chance, don't sell it short.

Good luck out there.

I have so many thoughts on this, LOL.

Ok, herpes. I've had cold sores (HSV-1, although you can get either type up north or down south) since I was a kid. Found out I was positive for HSV-2 after my ex's ONS - but, I know I didn't get it from that. He just got tested after that, and I got tested too. Apparently he was an asymptomatic carrier for YEARS and now I am too - no outbreaks. I get a cold sore once in a great while if I eat too many walnuts, but it's not what I would consider an STD. Some relative kissed me as a kid and gave it to me. The reality of herpes is MASSIVELY less of a big deal than the stigma for the vast majority of those who actually have it. I was going to suggest that you get the IGG blood test but it sounds like you did. You can ask for an STD panel and they won't test you for herpes. You have to specifically ask for it.

OK - body type. The stuff you were saying was honestly making me cringe a bit, to be honest. Like . . . I would never, ever ever want to fuck a guy who said, "I'm attracted enough to her that it would not be a chore." Just - no. Please don't do that to her. She sounds lovely. It's ok to just be friends if the attraction isn't really there.

The first guy I fell for post divorce - he wasn't my usual physical type but I was very very attracted to him. Now I'm a bit on the tall side (5'7") and while I'm not thin, I run and strength train and generally look like I could walk up a flight of steps without getting winded, although I could definitely stand to lose a few pounds (more so now than when I met him, I was in better shape then). I say this not to be conceited, but to set up what I'm about to say afterward. So the first time we met, after talking extensively online, he gave all the signals that he was interested - came to my hotel room. We talked til 3 am. Finally lights out and he basically pushed me away. Told me in the morning that he was very attracted to me but he didn't want to push things.

We talked nonstop for two weeks after (til my next kidless weekend), hot and heavy, and he drove 2 hours to see me. Of course I expected that he was into me . . . gave every indication. And again he basically pushed me away after crawling into bed with me. The next morning, in my dining room, he said a lot of things, but one of the things he said was how he usually dated girls who are "bigger than me" and "not as athletic" (I'm a size 12 and run slowly around my block four times a week, ok? I'm not a gym bunny). I came to realize that he likes really short, very very curvy (think BBW) women of a different race than me (I'm practically glow-in-the-dark white, he likes Black girls). . . . there is nothing wrong with any of these physical preferences but I just felt very hurt and rejected and unattractive. Why did he waste my time? Why did he go after a medium size white girl when he likes short BBW . . . . I just cringe when I think about it. I was really into him. I think he felt like I was the kind of woman he was "supposed" to like. And gawd. Nobody wants to feel like that.

If it's a circumstance where she's just not what's going to float your boat physically, don't waste her time. Please. You'll just shred her ego. You can think she's a lovely person and the attraction just isn't there. It's ok.

Now my current partner - all his exes are really short and I joke that I'm an amazon compared to them, but other than height I'm the "type" he likes. And he's a bit different from my usual physical type (not quite as tall, reddish/blonde hair versus black hair) but I thought he was very attractive from the minute I met him - there has to be an attraction.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 9:15 PM, June 29th (Monday)]

@JanaGreen

I completely understand why you would cringe having read my initial post on here, and as I said before, it irks me that, as a writer, I feel my words do not accurately portray how I feel about her. I have a feeling that my colloquialisms aren't putting forth my actually feelings and so on on the matter.

I'm finding that it's a dichotomy between how I felt and what I was attracted to in my late teens is at odds with how I feel and what I find attractive right now. I am being hyper analytical of myself, of her, of the situation in general, my feelings and my assessments. When I put those forward, they come across as very blunt, and I think in my efforts to soften that bluntness, it comes off as shallow, and I completely understand. I don't know precisely how to explain how I feel without it being easily misinterpreted, especially by women.

This lady is not conventionally attractive, and every other girl I have ever had an interest in was very very different from her. My STBXW is a slender woman of 5'4", coming in at about 140lbs, DD chest, brown hair, and her driver's license says green eyes though I swear they're hazel. Before her I dated a slender latina girl for a minute, and before HER a slender-but-buxom native american girl. Sort of

The woman I'm seeing now is short, perhaps 5'3-ish, but is a big girl. Maybe not what I'd call a BBW, but she is definitely no wilting flower of a waif. She has some of the deepest milk chocolate brown eyes I've ever looked into, and a dazzling smile. Her voice is soft and light and kind, and when she looks at me, I see someone who is incredibly attracted to me looking into my eyes. I see someone who is just as nervous and probably as vulnerable as I feel.

But you know what, the night before last, when I held her in my arms and I kissed her for the first time, nothing else existed in the world. Not my ex, not the show we were watching, not my turbulent past, not my excess weight or hers, we were just two people who were living in the moment and it was -amazing-.

I don't know that what I am feeling is a spark. I just don't. I don't know what a spark feels like when you're an adult. Maybe I'm catching feelings. Maybe this is one of my first relationships starting because of feelings and personality instead of physical attraction. Maybe I just don't know how to parse the difference between a new adult relationship versus a new teen relationship. I don't know at all.

When I said "it wouldn't be a chore" I meant it more with a 'wink wink nudge nudge' sort of tone,w hich I should know better by now does NOT translate through the written word. I know that I would enjoy being an enthusiastic and active lover for this woman if she would have me, and she has given me all the signals that she would. I made sure to get confirmation/permission before I took anything any further than we had already gone, and followed her lead, and she was enthusiastically responsive, so... yeah.

My words don't work. They're broken on this. I don't think I'm in love with her, hell, I've known her for slightly less than a month. I guess I'm still just trying to figure it out. For better of for worse, after the night before last, even though we haven't slept together, I'm pretty sure we're in a relationship at this point, and I'm good with that. She makes me feel good. She makes me feel like a man, not a burden.

Dude I'm happy for you! Sincerely. She sounds like a nice lady and you deserve to be treated with respect and desire, as we all do.

I think analyzing how you're feeling and where you're at is important for sure. But I know sometimes you can get sucked into an analytical vortex too. Give yourself permission to feel without analyzing every single thought. Be honest and open. Both with her and with yourself. And take your time and just enjoy things as they happen. No need to rush into anything cus you have all the time you need.

My heart is so glad for you!

Incarnate, I see what you mean now. I let that old wound to my ego get sensitive for a minute lol.

I mean . . . nothing wrong with going slow. And being with someone new, as long as you do feel attraction. Before my current BF, who is about 6'1" and built like a fridge (not fat, just broad and solid and pale and quite scottish), I was always with tall (6'4"+) dark-haired lanky types. Now I think 6'1" is perfect and I dig those broad shoulders.

Incarnate, I think you are remembering how nice it is to be with someone who WANTS you. My XWW had quit on me for years, and any intimacy from her was a chore/obligation. My GF wants to be with me and it feels amazing.

OMG if I could find a good honest man that all we have is great conversations and he leaves me energized I would just turn off the lights and be thrilled beyond belief. (The Match men I have dated, although nice for the most part, are notoriously self-absorbed conversationalists).

I would say it's pretty early in the relationship and maybe worth just enjoying this time, but then again, it only gets harder to break off later. Tough choice, I wish I had some advice but if it truly isn't there then you know what you feel.