SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't know if redeemable is the correct word. It's just the best I can think of. Its a thought that pops up and I have a hard time shaking it. I understand that is a very personal line in the sand for everyone. BS's are welcome to respond as well.

If you've done things you thought were irredeemable, after the fact how did you move on? Or is that even an option? Moving on almost feels like accepting my actions or letting them go. I am not trying to punish myself by staying stuck there, I don't think. I just really don't want to rugsweep or ever fall back into the same patterns.

Do you just live your life the best way possible knowing you will always be a net negative. That nothing can ever make up for our past behavior. Basically stop doing more harm and live.

An easy example: If my daughter dates someone that puts her through the horrible atrocities I put my ex wife through. I would view that person to be irredeemable. So therefore I find myself irredeemable as well.

I think this is different from loving yourself. It's more of a moral hardline that now exists in me that obviously was missing before hand. I know self-love is very important and I am working on that. My IC and I have spent plenty of time uncovering why I feel unlovable and proving my thinking wrong. I feel I have made some major strides in that regard.

I am also aware this is very selfish talk. Someone with regret and remorse would be more focused on the victim. Feeling their pain. I believe I do that as well.

Is it wrong to even be questioning this? Just an example of a wayward putting their own feelings first? Am I focused on a label that doesn't really matter or exist? Again this is a self imposed label. Nothing the people I care for and love have put on me.

This post isn't coming from a place of shame. More like self reflection and lack of understanding.

This is a really interesting topic. If someone did to my children, what my WH did to me, I would have a hard time forgiving. I’ve been kind to some of my oldest daughter’s friends but once they’ve betrayed her, I’ve treated them in my head as irredeemable. Yet, I’ve mostly forgiven my WH. A little hypocritical if I really think about it. I’m glad you brought it up.

I’ve done some things in my past that I’m ashamed of - yet I’ve forgiven myself. My justification for that forgiveness is that I know why I did those things, I know I’m a better person now, I was young and I’ve learned and grown. People I’ve hurt in the past may not find my actions or me forgivable or redeemable, but that’s ok - I can’t control their thoughts. I believe in myself.

I think in my own personal case, I’m just more protective of my children. My own family has forgiven my WH. They all encouraged me to stay with him, so that’s where we might differ in my family. I think most people are redeemable if they work on themselves and really try to improve and grow from their mistakes/bad choices/etc. You can’t change the past, keep learning and growing every day and forgive yourself. In my opinion, forgiving yourself is a big part of growing as a person. I don’t see that your life will be a net negative. Make it a positive. I could be completely off base here, just my thoughts.

I am also aware this is very selfish talk

I don't think so. I think you are trying to understand yourself, with the goal of becoming a safer person for yourself and your partner. I see no selfishness in that. That seems like the goal.

This post isn't coming from a place of shame

I am not trying to punish myself by staying stuck there

If you've done things you thought were irredeemable

Is it wrong to even be questioning this?

Shame, let me introduce you to Neanderthal. Neanderthal, meet my friend shame. You two have a lot more in common than you are admitting to yourselves. :)

I think this is different from loving yourself.

Absolutely. Loving yourself is the key to answering to most of your questions (in my opinion).

That nothing can ever make up for our past behavior. Basically, stop doing more harm and live.

This, my friend, is most of your answer in a nutshell.

What comes across most to me is that you seem to be thinking in absolutes. Good and bad, right or wrong, redeemable or irredeemable. The thing is, people, and life, just aren't that simple. You are a complex person. Allow yourself some grace for the things in your life that you are not proud of. Yes, you did those things, and yes, they were choices and actions that will likely never be okay or acceptable. However, they are only chapters in a larger story, not the entire story itself. Whether or not you choose to stay stuck in that chapter, or move on with the story, is up to you.

If my daughter dates someone that puts her through the horrible atrocities I put my ex-wife through. I would view that person to be irredeemable. So therefore I find myself irredeemable as well.

You make a great point here. Is that really irredeemable? Let's change the story a bit. Let's say your daughter is the one that ends up being the cheater. Is she now irredeemable? Will you kick her out of the house, block her calls, and tell her she's dead to you from now on? Because if I follow your line of reasoning, that seems to be the only logical and acceptable choice to be made, right? Do you feel she should suffer for the rest of her life, and reside herself to being "less than". Because you are correct, she can't take it back. So what is her fate? What is her definition? How do you see her now?

My guess, my HOPE, is that you would still love your daughter every bit as much as always. Even though she fucked up. Even though she's flawed. Even though she did something that cannot be forgiven. Not because you are her Dad, although that certainly plays a part. But because she is a beautiful human being that deserves love, deserves joy, and deserves a little grace in her life. That doesn't mean that you have to tell her that what happened was okay. It isn't forgotten. But it is just part of her story. It does not define her entire existence. In truth, helping her face her demons might actually bring you closer together, rather than farther apart.

Now, replace everything I said with yourself instead of your daughter, and understand that you too, are not just the choices you made that you regret. You are the choices you make going forward as well. You use the mistakes of the past, not as an anchor that weighs you down, but as a stepping stone, a lesson, a model which you can use to base your life on moving forward.

Look, flowers grow in shit. I know that's a silly example, but honestly, it is the truth. Infidelity is shit, and it always will be, but that doesn't mean, in any way, that flowers cannot grow from it. In my opinion, the real crime is in NOT allowing the flowers to grow. Which is what shame does. It gets you stuck. It is hard to see your way to feeling worthy when so much makes us feel unworthy. But flowers grow in shit.

Here is the thing. The real sin here is in not growing. Not changing. Not loving yourself. In a way, it makes things worse, because it means that all that bad stuff happened for absolutely no reason. Sleeping beauty eats the poisoned apple and stays dead, because Prince Charming feels too guilty to allow himself to kiss her, and save her. The only time you fail, and the only thing that makes infidelity irredeemable, is in not making something better come from it. And that is 100% on you.

I'd like you to please consider the following. How it would make you feel if your daughter said this about you?

Yeah, my dad hurt the family pretty bad when the affair came to light. I was crushed. I didn't know how to feel other than hurt, and worse yet, I didn't know how to feel about him. He was always the one person who I could trust to love me and make me feel safe, you know? And that came crashing down. And I wasn't sure how to ever forgive him.

But then, things changed. HE changed. I know he fucked up, but you should have seen him working hard to make things better between us. We learned how to talk to each other. He put aside his own pain and leaned into mine, and it made me feel better to have him there as my shoulder to cry on. He owned what he did to us, no excuses. I think most people would try to deny or minimize it, but he just loved me enough to put my feelings first. And it felt like I had my Dad back, my rock. He showed me how an adult overcomes their mistakes and missteps. He's not perfect and that's okay, I'm not either. But he's my Dad, and while he has his demons, he worked really hard, and still does, to overcome them. I am actually proud of my Dad for that. For being the responsible person/parent/husband and taking ownership of who he is and how he lives his life. We all make mistakes, and he made a doozy, but I love him, and I have no doubt that he loves me because he works hard every day to show me so.

The book of your life is still unfinished Neanderthal. And you get to write the next chapter. I know this might sound like sappy "love yourself" bullshit and I get that. But it is actually how healthy people operate. People will see you for who you are, not who you were, at least, not as long as you are not still that same, unsafe person. The truth is, no one wants to see you fail, or be stuck, or hating yourself. Redemption is always an option, but it is not given, it is earned. So go earn it. Not from others, but from yourself. And everyone else will follow your lead. That's how it works.

This one made me go hmm.

Honestly I don't think anyone is entirely 'irredeemable'. I think the most important part of that thought train is looking at how someone learns from those less-than-perfect decisions and changes their behavior on a go-forward.

So, does this person choose to stay in a place of being a victim of their own choices, or do they decide to make a healthier choice at the next fork in the road due to a desire to do better?

I guess from my perspective as a BS, I would think that part of the WS's healing journey for those who are doing the work is striking a healthy balance between who you were and who you are working to become. Those 'bad' choices are part of the story but they aren't the whole book - that can't be an easy thing to grapple with and I imagine it is a process to get there. FWIW, to me the very fact that you are grappling with those questions shows your willingness to do the hard work. It's definitely further than my ws ever got (or ever will) that's for damn sure.

I think it's safe to say that people who are truly irredeemable probably don't lose any sleep worrying about that fact.

In cases where you've done something that is truly shameful and harmful (like cheating) you can take responsibility for your actions, atone for it to the best of your ability, and work hard to fix the issues that led to your terrible decisions in the first place. You can't break up with yourself, so defining yourself as irredeemable isn't constructive.

This is entirely separate from whether an injured party is allowed to think of someone who hurt them as irredeemable, even if that's not the case. Everyone is entitled to their dealbreakers and I actually think that, in many cases, people don't change until they've experienced significant pain and loss as a consequence of their actions.

To use you and LD as an example, I don't think you or LD would've achieved the tremendous level of personal growth and healing if you remained married to one another. Although everyone here was hoping for a fairy tale ending, I really believe that the toxic dynamic you were both stuck in as a married couple would've choked off any hope of real change and improvement.

Lastly, as a woman of faith, I actually think it's a dual sin of both pride and despair to wallow in thoughts of being irredeemable. You're essentially telling God that you don't believe salvation is possible and that the weight of your sins is beyond His ability to carry.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:19 PM, March 31st (Wednesday)]

An easy example: If my daughter dates someone that puts her through the horrible atrocities I put my ex wife through. I would view that person to be irredeemable. So therefore I find myself irredeemable as well.

I disagree with Ellie. Some acts are so egregious that I would think of them as irredeemable. Something like you say here that there would be no path for redemption. No way back into the black. That said, there can still be justice, acceptance, and recompense.

What you want such a young man to do if you found out what he did you your daughter? What punishment? What recompense? Forced labor? Self immolation?

You can't undo the past. You can still build a better future. It doesn't make up for what you did, but it's better than NOT trying to be a better person and make whatever repairs you can.

Definitely some thoughtful responses. When this subject came to me, I also first thought maybe I meant forgiveness. But I see that as another animal completely. I'm thinking more along the lines of how some say infidelity is an automatic deal breaker for them. It's defined internally and those BS's almost immediately act accordingly (divorce & move on). I suppose I am saying MY actions are NOW a deal breaker for me ( I know how stupid that sounds). But like BluerthanBlue said:

You can't break up with yourself, so defining yourself as irredeemable isn't constructive.

Wouldn't that be awesome if breaking up with ourselves was an option.

BthanB, I'm not a man of faith. But your larger point is probably correct. I don't get to decide if I'm redeemable. But I can do is whatever it takes to correct what is wrong with me and never repeat those terrible actions.

I wont debate whether divorce was the best path forward for us. I gently ask that you don't discount the work we had already accomplished before that sheet of paper was signed.

Shame, let me introduce you to Neanderthal. Neanderthal, meet my friend shame. You two have a lot more in common than you are admitting to yourselves. :)

Oh yeah, Shame and I go waaay back. I still have my moments swimming in shame. But specific to this title question it was coming from a logical place, not emotional. At least up until now, when shame hits me, its like a gut punch. I feel it in my bones. I could be having an OK day, and a trigger (from my days as the abuser) would almost knock me down. My skin would be crawling, like even my body was rejecting me. Then i'd wallow in that shame and spend sometime hating myself. A year ago that might last weeks. I still spiral, I still wallow, but I have some tools now to help pull me out. Countering negative self talk with positive self talk really works. But I believe I needed to live in that shit for awhile. I needed to want to get better.

DaddyDom, I'm not discounting this as being shame. Maybe it's just a new version I haven't seen before. I'll be mindful of that, and treat it as such.

As far as my daughter being the perpetrator....I believe compassion and empathy can still be offered to someone that may be "irredeemable" to others. So yes I would still love her and care for her. But like others have said, as the father and not the victim, it wouldn't really be my place to label someone irredeemable. Again your larger point is accurate. Can I, and do I offer myself the same empathy and compassion? I'd say that I am definitely a work in progress.

understand that you too, are not just the choices you made that you regret.

This is something I go round and round with my IC. A murderer is called just that, not an ex-murderer. My IC says I cheated, I am not a cheater. I was abusive, I am not an abuser. I nod my head, but internally I struggle with that narrative.

So, does this person choose to stay in a place of being a victim of their own choices

Great point! In fact I talked to my IC last week about that. I called it "Woe as me" self talk. I'm I purposely keeping myself in the dungeon? Making it about me.

Physically I have been all over the place lately. I've had one really bad anxiety attack. Also the physical reactions I would have to triggers and mind movies from my XW's affair are happening to me when I force myself to think about what I've done. I have start having mind movies of the abuse I committed. Uncontrollable shaking, heart rate sky rockets, sweating, I cant focus. And I really really want to run and hide somewhere. I feel guilty for feeling sad for myself, based on the the pain I inflicted. That's part of the "Woe as Me" I am working on.

What you want such a young man to do if you found out what he did you your daughter? What punishment? What recompense? Forced labor? Self immolation?

My initial thought was he should never have a meaningful relationship with any partner again. Basically become a monk somewhere or find an abandoned island and befriend a volleyball. You lost your chance at love by helping destroy someone else. Maybe it is a punishment thing. I do my best to not live in an eye for an eye way of thinking, but it keeps coming back. I obviously have some work in regards to self punishment. Thank you for asking and stating it that way.

yet I’ve forgiven myself. My justification for that forgiveness is....

Thissucks5678, I almost forgot to respond to this. As a wayward, I am scared to death to justify anything in my own head. Even if it's towards a positive outcome.

[This message edited by Neanderthal at 10:37 AM, April 1st (Thursday)]

Well, I get self imposed labels. I thought immediately I'll never be redeemed. That I'll always be labeled a cheater. And I mean, I'm not wrong. BUT. there was a lot, A LOT of acceptance and work to be done to not necessarily move on from it, but to work through it. I agree with dom, you say its not shame but I suspect its factoring in on some level. It doesn’t have to be blaring to come into play. And I'll be honest I'm 5 years out and I still feel shame for my actions, I don't think that's a bad thing at all. There is a healthy level that its sole purpose is to remind us of that shitty thing we did, in hopes to change our perspective and as you said place a moral hardline.

Because, I know and I truly believe this with everything in me, I know I will never cheat on someone again. I feel very confident in saying that. It was part the experience and witnessing just how destructive, toxic and abusive I was, and part the work to correct that. It was my shame that got me to where I am now. I took it and harnessed it to work for me.

This experience is going to live with me forever, I just know that to be true. It still hurts me deeply, and I will be forever sorry. I don't think its something that I will ever move on from. But that doesn't mean I have to shame spiral or take it places that hinder my growth. Its hard man. I don't have that part figured out yet.

Do you honestly feel you are irredeemable, because can't imagine forgiveness or redemption in another? I mean I agree with you, If someone hurt my son I find it hard to believe I would pull from my experience and think let's give this person a chance. At least not right away. And I think that's the thing. We don't think past the hurt that would find them, we are protective of our children. Do you think you would feel that way if your siblings or parents met the same fate? What if you saw in the perpetrator the things you see in yourself or your ex, the work to correct and be better? Still not redeemable?

You can't break up with yourself, so defining yourself as irredeemable isn't constructive.

I like how this was worded and agree - it’s not constructive. I think that when we make choices that we ourselves frown upon we have to look at ourselves and those choices in a very real and honest way. Don’t bullshit ourselves, don’t make excuses, be very very real and look at what the behavior is. Look at how this behavior impacts your own self image, is this someone you like? Can you live being this way and respect yourself? What’s this behavior doing to your life? What’s it doing to your relationships? If you find that you don’t like what you see, go into what you plan to do about it and follow through.

Make a commitment to yourself and take it seriously bc it means something to you. If you slip, be honest and correct yourself. If there are people to make amends to - do it. As you continue to follow through with your new commitment to yourself you’ll find that you no longer see yourself through the same lens regarding that behavior as you once did bc you *know* it’s in the past. It’s not who you are now. It was then and you learned from it. Throughout this process of self-change and commitment you learn to value who you’ve become and stop cycling through shame from past actions.

Additionally as you continue to follow through with this commitment you’ve made to yourself and correcting it when you slip - you’ll find that this behavior isn’t something you “slip” into anymore bc it’s not a part of you. You won’t even be “good” at it anymore.

I don't consider many irredeemable. Outside of psychopaths and sociopaths who couldn't even fathom contemplating redemption.

Everyone has a past, present, and future. What matters most is what they are in the present and what they are striving to be in the future. That is what determines redemption. There are unforgivable acts, that might lead the person to be unforgivable to the subject of those acts, but that doesn't mean the perpetrator cannot find and cause happiness elsewhere. People always can, and should, strive to be the best person possible regardless of their past actions.

We touched on this topic a bit during our last MC session. It started with the concept of introspection.

What we found is that my WW gets stuck in the shame of what she did, a feeling of shame so great that she can't move to a healthier state of existence - she has to lie and obfuscate to avoid the guilt. I don't know if I would call that irredeemable...just a human weakness...she never learned to cope with consequences in a constructive manner.

In my case, it appears that I have no issues looking at myself in the mirror and admitting to screw ups. "You messed up, now do what you can to fix it, do better next time". I don't know if that makes me redeemable... I would prefer to call it being honest with myself (though I'm sure if I dig deep enough there are things in my life that I hide from).

I think "irredeemable" means not caring. Perhaps sociopaths and psychopaths, who feel no remorse, are the only truly irredeemable people if they never compensate for the lack of empathy.

What happened never goes away - but I think if we show remorse, contrition, own what happened, and try to be a better person, that is the best we can do in any circumstance. Stay away from the labels redeemable and irredeemable.

I really like what DaddyDom wrote, and I urge you to reread it many times.

The fact is that we can't change the past. We did what we did. The best we can do is live the best life we can.

Neanderthal, My gut says you've caught yourself up in a Drama Triangle in which you play all 3 roles. You lose 3 ways.

I also suspect you may be conflating a person's redeemability with that of a relationship's. You and your XW were not good partners to each other. If one or both of you heal, you can be good partners to someone else, but you'd probably want to stay away from each other. People can may heal without healing their old relationships.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:14 AM, April 1st (Thursday)]

N,

I am glad you are posting. I want to start by saying I do not agree that you and LD couldn’t be good for each other in the future. Healing can be done on both sides and if you ever want to look at it again I believe nothing is impossible. I can be complicated to work through mad hatter stuff while together, but I see you both have continued to work on yourselves past the point of parting so I don’t think any of us know what progress could be made. I think we should refrain even from discussing that situation because it really doesn’t have anything to do with this question you are posing. This is about you not your relationship.

But to your question. And this is so timely because I have been thinking about this one a lot. It’s basically the narrative we tell ourselves can dictate how long we stay stuck. I was stuck as a ws for a long time in the shame and self flagellation. I felt like I was moving past it. I realized so much about how I had always felt inherently bad and how much of my life confirmation bias comes into play.

At some point I know what it means love yourself or have self worth but it’s something that is still fragile as it’s not my norm. When I learned of my husbands affair I certainly have taken a hit in this category. Not because I base my self love on him or how he feels but because it did bring back so many feelings of shame.

I have come to a point that I realized it’s due to the way I am narrating the situation not because it’s reality. We all have a responsibility to ourselves come through our pain with newfound wisdom and the will to do better. To gain a growth mindset rather than stay stuck in one final thing that defines us forever. It’s easier said than done but currently I am making myself change the narration of what is happening. I realized just this morning as I drove to work that this is actually evidence of new coping!!! I am going to celebrate that. We tend to cope with things in a specific way and for us waywards it’s avoid, ignore, justify, don’t deal with. Now I am finding myself saying I am unhappy and it’s because I am choosing a portion of it by what I am telling myself. I think what we have to do is keep trying on nee options of how to look at and manage the situation instead of doing the same thing over and over and getting the same unwanted results.

It sounds simple but this is very hard and right now this question you are posing is the one I have decided to try me move away from. This week. I decided that this week. That means that when I find myself going down the rabbit hole I am going to stop myself. I think in a strange way this type of bd coping that we have is comfortable, it’s our go to, we are getting some sort of payoff from it. Figur out the pay off and it will make the thoughts and behaviors less comfortable to you.

My pay off is self protection and not letting people get close to me. By saying I am irredeemable I am telling myself that I don’t have to try. The point of this for me comes back to being able to justify my non-vulnerable state. Figure out what your pay off is and you will likely no longer want that to be your paycheck. Think instead what you want your paycheck to be. For me - I want to be happy, I want peace. Guess who is in the way of that? Mostly me.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:12 PM, April 1st (Thursday)]

Oh and I forgot- the feelings you are having strongly with guilt and pain and remorse over your behavior- this is evidence that you are no longer the same you. You hate the person you were then and your actions. The old you would not have evaluated it, nor would it be weighing in your conscience the way it is. That is hard! But it’s also a good and healthy sign. But at some point self compassion and recognition of growth and commitment to continue might be helpful to remember when you start swimming around in it.

In many ways I think as the years pass the remorse in some ways feels more vivid. The feelings of self loathing over those behaviors can be overwhelming. Meditation may help you be able to snap back to the present. Staying in the present is so helpful. That doesn’t mean don’t work on yourself but think about where you are going now. You have improved tremendously since you joined. If I can see it as a stranger on the internet I can only imagine it’s more visible in your real life. Start celebrating that and remember to hold gratitude as much as you can.

I’m a BS, but feel I have a better understanding of the wayward mindset than most betrayeds. I spent years justifying my shitty behavior. Did my fair share of blame shifting as well. Did I treat my husband like crap because I’m inherently evil? No, I don’t believe so. I did so because I was a broken mess of a person. I’ve worked hard to change that about myself. I’ve done some “unforgivable” things. Stuff I would understand if my WH never forgave me for. I still had to forgive myself, though. I’m now someone I’m proud of. Someone who doesn’t need anger or manipulation to feel safe. I have found my value and self worth. I would say I have redeemed myself, at least in my own eyes.

I can’t very well feel that way about myself, and then say what my WH did is irredeemable. It boils down to the same thing, he was a broken mess of a person. He’s worked hard to change himself. I can see that, and those around us can see it too. I haven’t quite forgiven him yet, but I know I will one day. I hope he forgives himself when he is ready. I think it’s one of the most important parts of moving forward.

My initial thought was he should never have a meaningful relationship with any partner again. Basically become a monk somewhere or find an abandoned island and befriend a volleyball. You lost your chance at love by helping destroy someone else.

This supposes that there is an arbitrary limit on love. Do you believe that you and LD each had 1 shot at love and now it’s been used up?

What do your subsequent thoughts sound like?

Why do you think there's an overall quantifiable outcome to life?

There is a world full of actual pathological people . Murderers rapists pedophiles etc . If the worst you ever did was cheat on someone or abandon them then its a huge over reach for you to describe yourself as irredeemable .

At worst you are irredeemable to that one person . Although once you are divorced its all in the past ... so technically there is nothing left to redeem or not redeem . Its all just over .

Noone benefits from you kicking yourself around , instead maybe use your time to do something constructive to put some credit on your karma account. Get out of your head and Plant a tree or something . Adopt a shelter dog . Make a small donation to charity . You will prob feel alot better that way.

Hope you have been eating sleeping and exercising well , it all adds up .

This supposes that there is an arbitrary limit on love. Do you believe that you and LD each had 1 shot at love and now it’s been used up?

What do your subsequent thoughts sound like?

I love this question. Even if you choose not to answer it here, it's a good question for yourself. Some of the release of these notions will come from challenging them just like it's posed here.

Last night, I was sitting on the couch with my h, watching one of our regular shows. As I was sitting there I thought "I really love this man". And then immediately started finding myself going down one of the rabbit holes about my own cheating. As I promised myself, I stopped and challenged myself on why I went from a nice moment to immediately going down a path that was going to cause a spiral. I realized the reason I was doing it was because I felt vulnerable in acknowledging my love. I want to continue to feel unworthy of him because I am afraid to love him.

I don't know what that will do, but I find that when you have these little aha moments about yourself that it allows you to release just a little bit more. As I was driving to work this morning, I started to ruminate again and it was like something stopped me and completely changed my attitude and went on to happier more grateful thoughts. It's thought/behavior modification. It takes time.

This question being asked struck me the same way. Challenge your beliefs, your thoughts and beliefs are creating your emotions. Having different thoughts bring new feelings.

More great feedback. I'm going to cherry pick a little since my thoughts aren't always linear and I think I can answer similar responses at once.

The more I think about it, stirred by this conversation. It seems feelings on redemption are heavily skewed toward what I am comfortable with (great insight hikingout). I am most comfortable feeling less than. "I'm not worthy" "Everyone is better than me". Realizing this is kind of terrifying. I've had that record on repeat in my head my entire life. I really thought I was making head way in IC about this. Maybe I have, and there's just so many different variations of the same internal shame.

If I believe I am less than, its so easy to dismiss myself as irredeemable. My daughter, sibling, or even complete internet strangers such as yourselves, I wouldn't condemn any of you. Especially if I can see change. My father should have been my easiest example. He's probably in the top 10 of worst human beings ever. But I wouldn't even write him off as irredeemable. But somehow I hold myself to an unimaginable standard. Now that I didn't reach that level of perfection (not even close), I essentially should not exist. Drop me off on a deserted island, where I belong.

This is 100% a twisted way of self protection. I'm avoiding vulnerability (With myself and others). Honestly it took a lot to even start this thread. Even amongst all this great conversation, I focused (almost like tunnel vision) on the very few sentences I perceived as negative. If it fit the narrative that I am less than, I used it as confirmation. That's one reason I am slower to respond than in the past. I am trying to process what I am interpreting, versus what is actually trying to be said. I can't let my internal negative voice narrate the awesome helpful thread (helpful to me anyways). I'm happy to report its kind of working. I challenge why I see something as negative, and that's helping me reframe things. Definitely a work in progress.

This supposes that there is an arbitrary limit on love. Do you believe that you and LD each had 1 shot at love and now it’s been used up?

What do your subsequent thoughts sound like?

JBWD, I don't believe that my chance of love was used up. I guess I believe I squandered the last shot at love so badly, that I shouldn't do it again. This is also complicated due to the madhatter situation. Its self-protection from the pain of being a BS and punishment for my war crimes. Again my negative beliefs seem to be creating my reality.

Why do you think there's an overall quantifiable outcome to life?

Because that's an easy way to view it. Maybe its laziness and not wanting to see shades of grey, or because it fits the narrative that I am less than.

Although once you are divorced its all in the past ... so technically there is nothing left to redeem or not redeem . Its all just over

I respectfully disagree. It almost sounds like the life of a pirate. Pillage a small fishing village, but brush it off because you sailed away. I don't think that was what you meant, I just wanted to make it clear I don't want that to be my mentality anymore. Basically that was how I used to operate.

siracha, thank you for asking how I am doing with the day to day stuff. For the most part I am doing well. I'm still sober (July will be 2 years). I haven't been on any anti-depressants in 9 months or so. At the beginning of this week I stopped taking over the counter sleeping pills and I am sleeping fine. I'd been on them since I initially stopped drinking years ago. I run often. I'm probably in the best shape of my adult life. 9 months ago I couldn't jog for a 1/2 mile without stopping. Last Sunday I ran 15km's without stopping. That's 9.3 Murica miles haha. I'm sure being more active is why I am sleeping better. I cook semi-healthy meals when I have my daughter, but the rest of the week is whatever is quickest on the way home from work. I think I live in the fried chicken tender capitol of the world. Fortunately I still like them.