SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

She stayed at his house. The first night it was just the two of them. A coworker stayed the second night. I’m assuming it became a PA at that time if not already.

Bud, it became physical a long time before that.

Cheaters are nuts. They convince themselves of the craziest things. Like kissing, groping and such isn't physical, like oral/digital penetration is not it isn't sex if he doesn't cum inside me, or none of it counts as long as I am not in love.

Just crazy, crazy shit they come up with to rationalize cheating. Once you start hearing the rationales it's like a house of mirrors, everything distorted.

What I am saying here is she has been living a lie and telling you lies.

***

Your Cheating Wife's Sob Story letter:

She's really big on her "whys". "Whys" are big on this forum too, as if she understands "her whys" and you understand "her whys", then you can accepts WHAT she did.

I am much more of a "What person" before we can even start to look at whys.

Notice her letter had little to no "what" in it other than calling her boyfriend a bad person but leaving that label off of herself.

Notice she didn't offer to go to his wife and tell him what is really up?

Notice how she didn't really admit anything you didn't already know?

I support you divorcing her, and I totally understand you wanting to know what she really did. Because those gaps can haunt you and cause you to second-guess yourself in lonely or tough moments and time periods.

If you know "what she did" you can work from a place where your moral code knows what it can and cannot accept.

SO if you do talk to her again, tell her: "I don't give a fuck about your whys, you need to tell me WHAT - all of it"

And I do suggest being aggressive about it because you've been way too nice and she has taken advantage of it.

***

ESTHER PEREL

That tell you what you need to know. That person is the patron saint of making excuses for cheaters and telling betrayed spouses to take responsibility for the actions of cheaters.

Your wife could not have missed the mark worse than she did by uttering that name.

***

A woman who truly loved me would at the very least give me the gift of honesty.

I think you should change that word to "respect". Honesty is not a gift, it's what she owes you as the man she made her vows to. Loyalty and respect is what she owes/owed you.

***

Other than that I think you have made a tremendous mental turnaround since you first posted.

- Lock her ass out the bedroom, but put her stuff in the guest room.

- DO NOT FUCK HER.

- If you want to divorce, then proceed.

- If you want to attempt reconciliation - well, that's your choice, but I think as you evaluate this woman further, you will find that her outlook on life, what marriage means to her, what you actually mean to her (Paycheck), the importance she puts on satisfying whatever base desire she has at any moment over any type of restraint - will likely be untenable if you want to preserve your mental and physical health.

Best of luck to you.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 12:33 PM, July 23rd (Friday)]

No contact is your new best friend.

Hey guys, remember that time Esther Perel said there’s no excuse for infidelity?

Yeah, me neither.

Never mind how your wife feels or how you think she feels. Never mind how others on this forum feel about your situation.

Go with how you feel about this and just go with that. Do what effects you in the way you really want. It's time for that.

There seem to be kids involved. I don't think you need any guidance in that department.

Do read the reviews on posters' perception of "the letter". We all have our own opinion about that. I'll keep mine to myself.

Her letter in a nutshell:

"I am a selfish and unsafe partner and always will be. Accept that or fuck off."

You know, I actually do think that Reconciliation is possible for you and your WW. I think maybe the reason it took so long for her to get on board was that she wasn't ready/able to admit that you were right and that the "friendship" was inappropriate. She got herself into an adversarial relationship with you, cast you as the authority figure, and then treated you accordingly. The good news is that you've busted through her delusion on that. The bad news is that maybe there's not enough love left for it to matter.

So, that leaves us with this...

after this multi year experience and then seeing the messages yesterday. I don't love her anymore.

My advice to you would be that you spend some time with that. See if it really does reflect how you feel or it it's coming from the hurt your WW has caused you. You've been dealing with this situation for a long time now. It's not unreasonable that your love could be gone by now. But you'll want to make sure before you take any kind of serious action. So, before you commit to anything else, R or D, think about whether there's enough love left.

You're very concerned about trust. And even though I don't believe that the trust is ever the naive and innocent trust it once was, it IS possible to build a new trust that will serve you well. But if the love is really gone, why would you bother?

ETA: Regarding locking your WW out of your bedroom... I think that you'd be better off imagining that everything you say and everything you do will eventually be seen by a family court judge. Chances are, that wouldn't be a good look in court. If you two are co-owners, it's illegal in most jurisdictions to lock one another out. So, I would just look her in the eye and tell her that I want the bedroom and that I want her to stay out and give me my privacy. After that "I'll do anything" letter, chances are, she'll comply.

ETA: And while she's in the mood to prove herself... consider getting a polygraph to find out whether or not there was actually any sex. Not that we've never seen belligerence from a cheater before, believe me, we have. I remember my own fWH shrieking at the top of his lungs that he didn't fuck anyone and for me to get in the car RIGHT NOW, so we could drive over and the OW's husband would tell me himself! What he didn't tell me was that the OW's husband was a giant perv who like to watch. So yeah, belligerence is possible even when they know they're guilty. But when I imagine what my behavior would be like if I really did think I was innocent, that the AP was really just a friend, and that my spouse was being controlling... yeah, I'd probably fight back against that too. So, while she's in the mood to prove herself, why not go ahead and get a polygraph so you can find out EXACTLY how much you're being asked to forgive.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 1:52 PM, July 23rd (Friday)]

Legatus

She wrote you five paragraphs, tons of words, and here's all she wrote about the pain she put you through:

But I didn’t want to grow by hurting you…

+

I realize now just how much I hurt you

She doesn't actually say shit about what she put you through. She just writes the veneer of having 'grown' and now she realizes what you mean to her and all this other bullshit she's trying to pull on your heart strings.

The fact is she shows no awareness of what she's actually put you through. She gives you the TINIEST amount of lip service for the years of pain she's made you suffer.

I agree with Mars and Rufus, if you accept her nonsense she's only going to do this again. The only thing that has changed is that she's gotten more effective at hiding her deception.

Here letter is interesting. As others noted, she cites Esther Perel, who is somewhat of an infidelity apologist.

The letter explains a lot about her A. Explaining a thing is not the same as excusing a thing. However, before you can consider whether to excuse a thing, it is helpful to understand it. Therefore, explaining a thing is a necessary step toward deciding whether to excuse a thing.

The issue with Esther Perel is that she never takes her disciples to that last step. She explains infidelity very well, in human, easy-to-understand terms. She makes infidelity seem normal because, under her explanation, it's so rational.

In the end, only you can decide whether to excuse it. That doesn't mean forgetting it. It does mean forging a new, loving relationship with your wife knowing her flaws. Infidelity recovery is deeply personal to the BH, and it depends a great deal on the individual details.

You handled this very poorly to begin with therefore you are at least partially responsible for where the relationship is today and the years of your life you just wasted.

Sevesn suggestion seems sound (a lot of Ss there lol).

The problem with her why's is a) you're not her therapist, b) that work may benefit her in the end, but not necessarily the marriage and c) it does not begin to explain what she did.

She may indeed have a vulnerability problem. She might think admitting she is wrong is admitting vulnerability. Fine.

But WHY continue the affair? WHY reach out to him and pursue this? WHY double down on the wrongness when you offered her a second chance?

Every BS asks why. The real thing we want to know is HOW could you do this to me? And the answer, in the end, is "I did not love nor respect you enough to stop it."

Note the language about the kids "dragging her down," and the fact that she chose ego kibbles (and probably sex) from a former boss. Her pining for her former life. IMO she gave up the whole married with kids things, at least emotionally. She took it for granted and maybe even resented it. Instead of waking herself up and realizing what she'd actually lose, she led a double life as best she could. She may realize it now, but the question remains: If you love and respect me, how could you?

The answer, is unfortunately too common: I no longer do (but please don't take my house away or my comfort or my kids or the stuff about this life I actually like!).

You handled this very poorly to begin with therefore you are at least partially responsible for where the relationship is today and the years of your life you just wasted.

No.

This statement assumes that you should innately know the correct course of action when the person you trust the most betrays you in the worst way.

Could you have handled it better? Certainly. But your **responsibility** was to be a loving, faithful father and husband, a good provider to your family, and a trusting and supportive husband.

Lots of people have had a worse period before they came to the correct course of action.

Don't be down on yourself.

Good God, Legatus, that's a hard, triggering read for me. I absolutely understand the journey you've been through, the choices you given, and how you feel so little for her now. My reaction to her letter was: that's a lot of deflection and manipulation but zero action. As often happens in these situations, she claims she will do ANYTHING, ANYTHING but isn't even suggesting one thing that I could see. Isn't this on her? I'm getting the vibe she wants you to (again) call the tune and she just follows it "like a good girl". As usual, Stevens has a good approach codified into a letter. It is full of real, actionable, measurable actions she can take to demonstrate she is *trying* to improve her behavior and commitment to the marriage. If you use this as a template for response, simply underscore that you are extending no promises.

Personally, I don't think she deserves another chance, especially if you don't love her. Still, it's hard to wash your hands of it all without convincing *yourself* that you did everything you could, isn't it?

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 3:51 PM, July 23rd (Friday)]

You are 45 so I assume she is somewhere close to the same age. Sort of old to be growing up. Do you think a day or two of threats of divorce made a difference in her maturity? Neither do I. That’s three years of hell.

On the other hand there are people here who have forgiven and reconciled with this kind of pain. The entire thing hinges on your ability to live with what you know and forgive her.

Take the advice given and use it with knowledge that people on site were cheated on. Some of us are still married and some are not.

I sent her a modified version of the things Stevens posted. The response so far has been letters she drafted to him and the OBS. Really a new NC letter to him makes no difference to me at this point. I don't see the point of sending it since she didn't follow through after the initial NC. The letter to the wife though is important. I feel like the goal of that letter should be to piss off the wife so the dickhead suffers some consequences. I'm not sure that's the point of it though. It appears she's moving in the right direction, but again, she can do everything on that list and more and I'm not sure where that will leave us. Also, the letter seem premature. I really don't feel she has made a full disclosure. It seems like an unredacted timeline is needed before any letter is sent. She also tends to place blame primarily on him and casts herself as a victim.

To the wife ( I changed my name on the letter)

It has been a long time since we’ve talked. I hope things are going ok.

I am writing to tell you about my relationship with Barry. You know that we were good friends for a long

time, but it eventually crossed the line. Our relationship was inappropriate. We were never sexual, but

we were intimate in a way that was not just friendly. I shared things with him that I shouldn’t have

about me and my marriage and things I should have only shared with Matt. And then I snuck around

behind Matt’s back (and yours too I guess) to talk to Barry when I knew that it was ruining my marriage.

I recently emailed with him! I am not sure what I have been thinking!!! Now Matt has no trust for me

and my marriage is portably over and its all my fault. But I also blame Barry. If he was a real friend, he

would have told me what I was doing was wrong, but he didn’t. He let me go on hurting myself and my

family.

I wanted to admit to you that I diminished my relationship with Barry when I talked to you about it. I

always said we were just friends. We were friends, but that led to an emotional affair that I lied to

protect. I just felt like you deserved to know that I lied to you. We also talked about you and Matt. This

too I know was inappropriate. We talked about your being in pre-menopause and how this affected your

sex life and how it made you crazy. He told me he needed me in his life as his counselor and therapist,

claiming he had no one else.

I also led you to believe that Matt was crazy and had no right to be upset over the relationship Barry

and I had. Well he did!! I led you to believe (and I am assuming Barry did too) that it was Matt’s problem

and that he was the crazy one. He had every right to be upset! I deleted texts and emails from Barry

even before he was worried about it. I never told him you weren’t going to be in Georgia when I came

down for the race, so that raised a red flag for him understandably so. When Matt did get upset about

all that, I turned to Barry and complained that he was crazy. (I now see that pain that I caused Matt—I

only wish I had understood then, I would have made much better choices and we wouldn’t be where we

are now.) We belittled and minimized his feelings to you (and ourselves) and that was just plain wrong.

Barry always said you were ok with our relationship, but now looking back maybe you weren’t. Maybe

you were just being told what he wanted you to know just like I did with Matt. I know you’ve been

married for awhile and maybe you are aware of all this about him. Maybe he’s done this with other

women. Maybe it’s a pattern and not just me. Maybe you aren’t aware of it. Maybe you don’t want to

be. I’m not sure and I don’t care.

I need to eliminate 100% both of you from my life, but I needed to get that off my chest first (not fair for

you, probably). So, I hope you have a good life and I’m sorry for my part in any pain I’ve caused. Please

do not try to contact me ever.

[This message edited by Legatus at 2:43 PM, July 23rd (Friday)]

[This message edited by Legatus at 8:43 PM, Friday, July 23rd]

Legatus,

Also, the letter seem premature. I really don't feel she has made a full disclosure.

I agree with this. She should not send this until she's created a timeline of the affair and has been polygraphed. It is crazy to think she traveled to the race, stayed overnight with him alone, and did not have sex. This was not her first rodeo with this guy. God knows what she was doing before you discovered their affair...

I'm getting the vibe she wants you to (again) call the tune and she just follows it "like a giood girl".

I think you're probably right about that. It would fit the dynamic we've seen already, the way she's set the OP up as an authority figure, an obstacle to be got around, a father-figure. It's because of that, that I would NOT give her a list like the one Stevesn has proposed. She's already got an authority problem. You don't want to confirm her "dad/jailer" bias. It will make her lazy so that all she's doing is checking in the boxes.

She found Ester Perel on her own. She can find better answers on her own too. You would just accept or reject her efforts as good enough or not good enough. Personally, I think she needs to get into IC to figure out how she failed to empathize with you rather than setting you up as "dad/jailer".

ETA: Sorry... we cross-posted.

Regarding the letter to OBS.. It's your choice, of course, but typically NC is the priority. I think it's pretty early for your WW to be genuinely remorseful toward the OBS anyway. Right now, it's more likely she's too focused on saving her family dynamic to think about what she really took away from the OBS. It might stir up trouble for the AP, but other than that, NC says it all.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 3:13 PM, July 23rd (Friday)]

If you reconcile, suggest you read together Not "Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass.

Your wife needs to be quoting Dr. Glass instead of cheating excuser Esther Perel.

Exactly ^^^^^^^

Her letter is total minimization.

We’re just friends is the biggest lie told.

The effort they put into this was way above anything I’ve seen.

Playing for another rugsweep.

It might be fun to tell her you’ve got her scheduled for a polygraph

IMO I wouldn’t waste anymore time on this.

[This message edited by Marz at 3:16 PM, July 23rd (Friday)]

After reading the letter all I can say is your WW is class 1 blameshifter and All I see in her letter is "I", "I", "I" & "I", very little mention of what YOU want.

Why NC letter again? Didn't she do this the first time? Why this one holds more value? Because suddenly she grew conscience overnight? Red flag all over.