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Legatus - you must polygraph her. MUST. As everyone is saying, she is no doubt still lying about some things, if not everything, snd definitely minimizing for sure. The poly is the only way to verify.

Chances are you’ll get a parking lot confession, as others have mentioned. You shouldn’t proceed with any course of action, either way, without a poly.

I am not remembering the names, but one high impact polygraph story was the female teacher who had an affair with a parent at her school as they were working together thru a school club. Both husband and wife were members here and posted a lot.

The wife denied and denied, even on these forums. Similar to this thread, only admitted to "one time." Finally the night before the poly, and even on the day of to the examiner, a flood of truth came out. Multiple sexual encounters every week for a long time. Again I am forgetting the names. She passed the poly, though a flood of truth came out and they ended up divorced. Definitely a strong case for polygraph as I recall.

^ Couple was ‘Neanderthal’ and ‘LifeDestroyer’

One concern I have concerning polygraphs- as there are drugs that make it easier to Defeat the test, I suggest that you make it a "surprise". Consult with the administrator concerning the questions to be asked. Set up the test to be administered at a time when she should be available. Let her know, in advance, that you will pick her up with no warning. When you do, take any bag, box,purse from her. She is not allowed out of your sight for any reason including restroom break. This is to eliminate any chance of taking pills. Failure to comply counts as failing the test. This can be done. Remember, this is her fault.

Others have made good points. Like them, I think your WW is not sincere either.

I don't think the sex they made that weekend developed spontaneously. On the contrary, as I have said before, she might specifically brought up the subject during the counseling, so she would prevent your objection. Whole was planned.

Being drunk doesn't excuse her. But put that aside, why do two people whose primary purpose is a racing event drink so much? Can we really think they're there for the race?

We all know that drinks are indispensable for romantic nights. They are part of it, they don't turn an ordinary night into a romantic one.

The claim that there is nothing but friendship before sex is absurd, the claim that after sex, considering it as never happened and remaining friends is much more absurd.

It's normal for her now to think that many of the things she does are stupid. Yeah, not smart enough to save her ass and after all, she got caught.

So why didn't it seem so stupid to her when she was doing all this? She knew that you were suspicious, suffering, what she had done was wrong and will end your marriage. So the conditions for her to see all the things you say she is aware of now were exactly the same then. Then why now? Because she thought it would work and now see it didn't. In fact, she realized nothing new, she was well aware of everything.

What should we think now? Did she finally get it? Or is she trying new stories that she thinks will work this time? Why should we think that this is another phase? She lied, you didn't buy, so she tries new lies, she can't go back and stick to the old story and say that they didn't have sex.

I have no doubt that she wants to stay married to you right now. I've never seen any WW ask for a D after getting caught unless she has an exit A.

But is this the real and permanent version of her? I don't think so.

When the storm subsides and you return to routine, she will complain about the same or new different issues. Don't think that that time she will show a more understanding and different attitude, because she learned from the past. You will encounter the same reckless, cruel, selfish person, this time closer to the exit from marriage.

She's ready to do anything to fix you now, right? So ask her to stay away from you as the person who did all this evil and is the source of your great pain. What keeps this pain alive is her presence. Will she accept a divorce without any resistance?

Seemingly even the most remorseful WSs don't want to accept a solution in which they are not involved. This leads us to the fact that there is almost no such thing as real remorse, and what looks like this is actually another form of WS selfishness.

When the storm subsides and you return to routine, she will complain about the same or new different issues. Don't think that that time she will show a more understanding and different attitude, because she learned from the past. You will encounter the same reckless, cruel, selfish person, this time closer to the exit from marriage.

This is really what it all boils down to. I found out something last night relating to this past July when I asked her for her login information for her work computer. If you recall, she had agreed years ago to allow me to see anything without delay. She was out of town at the time at my mothers house facilitating a visit with the grandkids. I asked for the login information and she refused to provide it which let me know something was amiss. My mother is in town visiting right now and we were talking last night. She told me she remembered when I asked my wife for the login information because my wife was complaining about it. My wife complained to my mother stating I was being controlling and maintaining her innocence. This really pisses me off, because it's a recent example of my wife misrepresenting me to other people to cover up her own crappy behavior. The selfishness seems to be a common thread in most of these posts I read on the forum. One person wanting everything for themselves at the expense of their spouse and children. A complete willingness to allow other people to pay any price so they can have what they want.

The polygraph will happen for sure regardless of my intent to reconcile or not.

She was out of town at the time at my mothers house facilitating a visit with the grandkids. I asked for the login information and she refused to provide it which let me know something was amiss.

How dare you invade her privacy to cheat!! I wouldn’t waste my tme or money on a polygraph. You know the truth.

[This message edited by Marz at 2:28 PM, Saturday, October 23rd]

So I suggest you schedule the Poly. Even if it is a month out.

And we can help you with the questions.

In the meantime, I also suggest you tell your wife that any questions you ask her, even casually, are potential to be asked on the poly so remind her you expect her to answer everything with total truth. Not what she wants the truth to be, but what the truth really is.

Get her thinking in that mode.

Finally, I want to remind you, and you’ve said it recently so that’s good, that rebuilding a relationship does not START when a WS says they’ll do the work, but instead it can only begin once they have nearly completed that work to become a new person, an honest and truthful one, a safe and loving one.

And usually that takes years. Not weeks or months, but years.

Most WS do t have the fortitude to make that happen over such time. Remind your wife of that often.

Please complete the Postnup. It’s important. Right now the Poly and Postnup should be your focus.

Still there? How’s it going?

Wow, it’s been a month since I’ve posted anything. I’m not sure where my wife and I are. I think some form of reconciliation. That seems to be the slow direction it’s heading in. Not because of her really, mostly because I go back and forth so much. Some days I feel like things will be ok and she will continue to be a safe person, then I get scared that I’m being fooled and tricked and I withdrawal. It sucks for both of us. I’m having my first sleepless night in a long time tonight. Since I last posted I had the post nuptial drafted. Today her attorney reviewed it with her. She came away from the meeting talking about what he said she "could get". She also expressed concerns about me tricking her. She seems to think I might file for D right after I sign it. At first I reassured her, listing all the things I have done over the past years that were in her best interest and came at a cost for me. Then as I laid in bed I started thinking about all the things I did for her based on her false pretenses. That resulted in me rehashing every deception in the past.

Other than that we are both going to IC. She has been coming to some of my sessions. My IC is pretty close to retirement. She’s really good at what she does. I think she’s better equipped than my wife’s counselor to address my wife’s issues. She’s also trained in emotional based marriage counseling, so she incorporates that. My motivation to invite my wife to my sessions comes from two places. The first being I think my IC can help her, regardless of us staying married. The second motivation is my IC is good at sniffing out bullshit, I know because she sniffed out all mine pretty fast. I’ve been able to get her opinion on my wife’s sincerity. My counselor has been optimistic.

I think my wife is coloring inside the lines right now, but I worry about the future. When I reread the last few posts the line from Guvensiz stood out again and still speaks to me. " But is this the real and permanent version of her? I don't think so. When the storm subsides and you return to routine, she will complain about the same or new different issues. ". My counselor says she thinks my wife was/is involved in a love addiction. From what I know about those, she try to resume with him or find a new guy in the future unless she addresses it successfully in counseling.

The polygraph is still on the agenda. I want to get the post nup in place first. Oh, she has still refused to cancel the trip. I know that was a sticking point for a lot of people.

[This message edited by Legatus at 10:23 AM, Tuesday, November 30th]

I have not read most of this "conversation" so this might have been discussed.

How long were you married before you noticed a change in her? I know several women who, soon after marriage, realized it was a mistake. Only one left within a year. The others stayed, usually because of a child or finances. None of it was fair to the husbands. The only one I knew as a friend stayed because her parents loved him and she was devoted to them. She never cheated but treated him as if he were stupid. He is the nicest man. I moved so don’t know much about them anymore. Eventually the others cheated and left their marriages.

There are a lot of conversations, in our world, about men cheating, but this forum shows the horrible pain husbands go through. I don’t know but one other thing that causes this much pain to our sense of self worth except losing a parent when a child. If you divorce double down on staying very connected to your kids.

I know I’m going against the popular opinion but I always felt that if I have to obtain a polygraph to "prove" what my spouse is saying or telling me, there is no hope for the marriage.

It’s time for a D.

It is sad that your W does not look at the gift of Reconciliation for what it is — a gift. My H still thanks me for staying with him and not D him. And it’s been 8 years from Dday.

I’m sorry your wife is being selfish. It’s not all about her!!!

She's been in IC. So why did she cheat; and what has she done (except tears and self hate comments) to protect her marriage from a repeat with another man?

Oh, she has still refused to cancel the trip.

How does she justify the trip in view of her statement that she's willing to do anything????

What does your therapist say about her going on the trip?

IMO her refusal is evidence that while she appears to enjoy and want the benefits of marriage - she's not fully invested in you. She's just doing the minimum which also suggests she's lying/withholding information.

Among other things, in order to cheat, she was: selfish, entitled, deceitful, and lacked empathy for you. And she still it.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 2:23 PM, Tuesday, November 30th]

How does she justify the trip in view of her statement that she's willing to do anything????

What does your therapist say about her going on the trip?

IMO her refusal is evidence that while she appears to enjoy and want the benefits of marriage - she's not fully invested in you. She's just doing the minimum which also suggests she's lying/withholding information.

I have a different take on this. We had a for us what would have been a trip of a lifetime scheduled for out 25th anniversary. Think the houses on stilts over crystal clear water. Of course that was from the brochure as I never saw it. The trip was scheduled not too long after the affair was discovered. My EX and our short lived MC begged me to go on it. I canceled and tried to salvage whatever money I could. My EX was doing everything she could to win me back at the time, and I think she saw this trip as part of that. She felt the change of scenery, the romantic setting, would be the start of our new chapter.

I think the WS probably views this in the same light. Her refusal to cancel is because she thinks this will take the focus off the affair. There was no way I was going to reward her actions by taking this trip, but damn, I really woukd have liked to go. Just not with her at the time. Not sure how the OP really feels about going

It also is painful to cancel these things when others are involved. I frankly looked like an asshole for canceling this trip for a work event that was mandatory. I should have won an Oscar for the acting I did on that, but I still think people saw thru it.

Either way, I wouldn’t read to much about her not wanting to cancel indicating she isn’t all in.

I will say, this is one of the worst examples of gaslighting I have ever seen. She should be ashamed of how she not only lied to you, but made you out to be some kind of crazy. That is more unforgivable than the sex.

These might have been addressed already as I haven't read the entire thread; I apologize if you've already explained:

Did she give you a full and complete timeline?

Did you tell the OBS about their affair?

What will the poly prove that you don't already know?

What is she doing to make you feel safe again?

Your IC sessions should be about YOU. If you're looking for a couples session, then go that route. But she should not be in YOUR IC sessions.

she has still refused to cancel the trip.

Why is this her decision?

If it were me Legatus, I would tell her that part of rebuilding trust is to take seriously your feelings about this trip and cancel it. If she cannot even bring to do that then she is definitely not "letting go of the outcome" and doing not what is the right thing but instead still trying to control things.

As others have said, she is not really caring for you yet. What is she saying lately. Do you feel that she cares more about herself and what this means to her instead of caring most about how hurtful her cheating and deception was to you? I would make clear to her what you feel you are getting from her.

She made him the most important person to her. I’d let her know that. She cannot deny it. He was her white knight. And as she gave him the intimacy that should have been within your relationship, she broke her vow to love, honor, cherish and protect you. And while she did that, she made you feel bad about caring that it was happening.

Does she have a real plan to rebuild trust, make amends and help you heal? If she really wants you she’d create that plan and present it to you. If it were me, I’d ask for a written draft to review.

Rebuilding Willy nilly does not work. If you yourself want this relationship you need to demand from her what it will take to make you stay. Don’t settle for less. That’s what you were doing before d-day.

She needs to show you that you are the love of her life and the only man for her. And if it were me she’d also need to show me the disdain and disgust she has for the AP. And for herself.

Take care.

Legatus, BeyondRage had an excellent post which included a Polygraph as well as as other citations from members. I believe it was his first thread.

Did she give you a full and complete timeline?

Did you tell the OBS about their affair?

What will the poly prove that you don't already know?

What is she doing to make you feel safe again?

I did get a full and complete timeline. It’s been revised many many times. I’ve asked a million questions and she’s been answering them. She doesn’t get defensive and appears to want to answer them. She has had what we call "shame attacks" when I’ve asked some questions. That’s basically when she starts crying. She does go onto answer the questions. I seem to be relating the same questions now. The ones I’m not sure I’m getting the whole truth. She maintains they had sex only the one time and they used a condom. She might be telling the truth, but those seem to be typical things people say in these situations. Her story makes sense now, where before it didn’t because it was a patchwork of spontaneous lies and as such the pieces never fit nicely together.

She has been understanding and patient with my ups and downs instead of being irritated with me. When I’m in my downs she’s apologetic saying she knows it’s her fault. When I’m distant she panics the way she used to panic when I told her she couldn’t have her "friend" anymore. She says she feels crappy because I’ve been overall nice to her and she doesn’t feel like she deserves it. I’m sensing sincerity from her.

I told the OBS years back, but it wasn’t effective since my WS and the AP got to her first and convinced her I was just a crazy husband. The few times I did reach out to the OBS she would then contact my wife who would assure her it was all made up. In recent months my wife has reached out to the OBS because part of the deal was my wife would contact people she lied to about the affair to set the record straight. Mainly because she had painted me out to be a controlling monster to protect the affair. She sent and email to the OBS, then left a voicemail for her, sent a redacted version of the timeline, and then finally on her own she wrote a new no contact letter to the AP and blind CC’d me and the OBS. She let him have it. One thing she’s come to realize is I have always cautioned her or supported her even when it didn’t benefit me or when it involved me sacrificing something. She feels used because she sees that he never really took much of a risk for her, he never looked out for her, and he was just interested in what he could get for her. I think a switch really flipped for her when he cut and run and broke contact off with her as soon as he realized his world was going to impacted. Even if what she did was wrong, she has gone through a lot of hell over the past 4 years to communicate with him. She saw he wasn’t willing to do that. We didn’t receive a response to the email.

I’m not sure the poly will ever happen. It’s real value has been her belief that it will happen. There is a part of me that agrees the trust, if it can be rebuilt, will be better off without it. I’m leaving it on the table

What has she done to make me feel safe? One thing is her attitude regarding boundaries. Three years ago it was a word that triggered her. Now she sees them as things that protect the marriage. She bring them up and wants to talk about them. She shows me affection, she skips getogether with friends if she knows I’m having a hard day so she can be with me and comfort me if I need it. She doesn’t get angry about me asking questions. She used to see them as controlling and she would get mad, now she answers them. If she thinks of anything later she follows up and tells me. I wrote about the post nup in the last post. She said she’ll sign it as is because she knows the affair is over and she only wants to work on us. She says the post nup will never need to be used. She had lied to her IC for two years about the real nature of her "friendship". She fessed up to her IC so she could work on preventing the behavior moving forward. I’ve seen her notes from counseling without her knowing, and they confirm she has told the truth. The main thing that makes me feel safe is I can tell her attention is no longer divided. Another tale tale sign is her talking about our future and our eventual retirement. She has shied away from that topic over the past four years and now she bring it up. It difficult to list everything, it’s mostly the abesense of that gut feeling she is living. Sure there are a few things I question, like only having sex one time. I’m more worried about our marriage ending because I just can’t get over the affair opposed to it resuming again. There is nothing I can think of that I would ask her to do in addition to what she has already done, and most of it she did on her own without me bringing it up. She just seems more sincere and authentic. I don’t feel like it’s an act, I feel like she woke up. Not that my guard is down, I don’t think it will ever be down.

waitedwaytolong - thanks for the insight. Honestly I’ve been conflicted on the trip. Mostly because it seems like a really cool trip. The other husbands are guys I brew beer with and go on guy trips with. I may be cutting of my nose to spite my face. I’ve considered approaching my wife and discussing making the trip more about us, spending a significant amount of the trip doing things together without friends. I do feel more connected to my wife than I have in years and it might be a good thing for us. Our honeymoon was in the same area as this trip. Also, I looked into it finally and it appears we would only be able to recover 20% of the cost.

There is nothing I can think of that I would ask her to do in addition to what she has already done, and most of it she did on her own without me bringing it up. She just seems more sincere and authentic.

Gotta say that this sounds encouraging.

Maybe she finally gets it.

I hope so b/c you deserve better than what you have gotten over the past few years.