SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I apologize for posting a lot lately but I really appreciate the feedback I get and don't want to talk my friends and family's ears off constantly. I feel my soon to be ex-wife is a narcissist. Her decision to divorce me came after she was promoted to CEO of her non profit. She decided to divorce me after twenty years because the marriage "wasn't working" in her opinion. We disagreed on different topics. One of them was sex. For years she claimed not to be emotionally connected to me when it came to sex. I loved her and asked her what I could do. She said she couldn't put it into words. That was so frustrating because I cared about her and really wanted it to be a good part of our relationship as anyone would with their wife. She made it seem like I only wanted that from her and I was a jerk for wanting it. I wanted it for good reasons. It wasn't using her. Now she has had her affair and lives with this AP and I assume he did everything I could never do. I was never good enough. She didn't respect my opinions ever. She made more money but admitted during the divorce process I was like the third of our kids (We have two). During the divorce she called all the shots. All I did was cried and begged her to stay, which I know isn't attractive, but she took her ring off, then moved down the hall and everything was about her. She said "I don't feel comfortable wearing the ring anymore". I asked her to stay in my room and not move down the hall and she said "We are going through this separation". She had to call the shots always in the divorce, just as she did in the marriage. We still talk often, even though I know better and that no contact is best. I told her I know I will have trust issues after she betrayed me. She said she was honest the marriage was over and to remember the twenty years we trusted each other and never strayed. I still haven't lied or even looked for anyone else though I should. I didn't stray or lie. She lied for months and still only says she did that to spare my feelings. My twenty year old son is very upset with her for the way she has acted during this divorce and for his own reasons. He jokes she is like talking to a lizard that doesn't get it. She is very surface level with both him and our sixteen year old and even blames their frustrations on me "unintentionally upsetting them". She says it is "Below the belt" to ever speak them about us in a good or bad way, which I mentioned in a previous post. Everything is my fault in her opinion. She doesn't even consider her affair an affair because she had told me she wanted to divorce me. The ridiculous part is she told me this at the end of last April and met her AP soon after. She sped up this process while calling me her best friend and still spending time with me quite often. It is so difficult dealing with someone that can't see that her decisions have hurt me, our sons, and my extended family, who have all been very generous and kind to her for two decades. She never takes blame for her part of the marriage not working. I am not blaming her entirely either. We both could be stubborn, but I can't relate to the way she can't self reflect. In marriage counseling she would say she realizes she's not perfect but could never or would never expand on that and address specific things to work on about herself. Therapy was just her unloading everything she disliked about me. She even sent a list of my faults to my mom and explained they were her reasons to end our marriage. It is so frustrating having spent time with a woman who can't see places to improve herself. She also said in therapy she was happy with who she was. I respect people having healthy self esteem but in counseling I felt it should be about two people knowing they care about each other and acknowledging there are things they should both work on to have a healthier marriage. She would not do that. I told her I loved her in therapy and outside of it and said I was totally on board to do whatever it took to keep our family together. Nothing was good enough. You'd think she hated me by the way she had no empathy during this long process of divorce. It was grueling. We hung out as "friends" and she never backed down and eventually started seeing a new guy, but didn't admit that until months later. She filed for divorce in September and told me about the affair in late December, after months of us hanging out together and even me going to a member of her family's funeral, which she was rude to me and was sending selfies to the AP that weekend. I am so frustrated with this woman and the way she made me feel like it was my fault it didn't work. To this day, I am nicer than I should be. She called me today. I answered and she discussed my son but said something to justify her decision to live with her AP. I really feel she is just extremely self-centered and it frustrates me that she can't see this. I want her to have a realization that she lives for herself most of the time and doesn't respect others and their feelings. Is there anyway to get through to someone that doesn't have the ability to look inward and try to be a better person?

[This message edited by LonelyHolidays at 8:03 AM, Thursday, March 31st]

So let me understand:

I feel my soon to be ex-wife is a narcissist.

I really feel she is just extremely self-centered

she lives for herself most of the time and doesn't respect others and their feelings.

You'd think she hated me by the way she had no empathy during this long process of divorce.

She had to call the shots always in the divorce, just as she did in the marriage.

She never takes blame for her part of the marriage not working.

Therapy was just her unloading everything she disliked about me.

And your question is...how do I change her??????

To this day, I am nicer than I should be.

All I did was cried and begged her to stay,

We still talk often, even though I know better

Your question should be...why do I love people who abuse me?????

Are you in IC to deal with this and get help to fix your lack of protective instinct?

If someone loves and chases and is exceptionally nice to an axe murderer, the question is not "How can I change this axe murderer?" It's not. Everyone can see the obvious danger.

IC will really, really help you understand that the problem here is you. I was in your shoes once, and I thought I was drowning--literally not going to survive. IC helped me learn that it was me who needed to change--and learn to value myself.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 1:27 PM, Thursday, March 31st]

OwningItNow said it better than I ever could. But let me emphasize: always value yourself. Respect yourself. It is not conducive to a healthy relationship to let your partner walk all over you in a misguided attempt to be nice or accommodating. It only breeds disrespect and contempt as you have seen. If you don’t respect yourself and stand up for yourself your partner will never respect you. Please get into intensive IC as suggested to help you learn to always value yourself. Good luck.

Is there anyway to get through to someone that doesn't have the ability to look inward and try to be a better person?

No.

The last place they want to look is inward.

She has contempt for you because you are trying to get her to look in the proverbial mirror.

She does not, and will not, do that.

She has outward sources of validation right now.

One of them is the affair partner who I’m sure is shoveling her full of the usual heaps of steaming bullshit that affair partners offer in exchange for sex.

She also has the pick-me-dancing husband she betrayed who is still pining after her like she’s some fucking prize - even after she betrayed him.

She thinks she’s a total boss princess who has two guys trying to win her.

I would highly suggest you immediately cease from trying to "get through" to this narcissistic mess and "get away" from it.

Your value and esteem are not, in any way, shape, or form, dependent on this woman.

Stop role-modeling to your children that it’s ok to allow someone to emotionally abuse the shit out of you - especially a spouse - because that is what they are observing.

Demonstrate to them that their value and esteem are based solely on them living authentically by sound values, ideals, principles, and a moral compass they believe in.

This woman could not have demonstrated any more effectively to you and your children of just how awful she has been to you and your family.

By participating in these conversations with a narc cheater you’re continuing a pick me dance that she considers 100% ironclad proof that none of this is her fault.

Stop answering the phone. Change her ringtone and her name in your contacts to something that matches her horrible actions. All calls go to voicemail. If it’s a legitimate call concerning kids or divorce logistics it gets a return text/email. Unless the matter is time sensitive the minimum response time should be at least 3 hours and should utilize as few words as possible.

Your top 3 responses:

No response

No

Yes

Douchebag AP has stepped into the role of emotional punching bag. Time to let him earn his keep.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. It’s hard to hear but I have been allowing this for too long. It’s funny asc1226 you called called the AP a douchebag. I’ve seen one picture of the guy’s face where he’s trying to look tough with this lame bat neck tattoo. I told my STBXW he looked like a white trash douchebag. She obviously told him because even though of course we aren’t Facebook friends, I saw the next day he changed his profile pic to have a caption "White Trash Douchebag". My Ex hearted the pic. They are bad people and deserve each other. By the way she tried calling a half hour ago and I sent her to voicemail. I don’t know what she wanted but I was happy to ignore the call.

I’ve been a divorce lawyer for thirty years.

The uptick in people calling me who lead with "my spouse is a narcissist" is staggering. Multiple calls like this a week.

Bona fide narcissism is an extremely rare diagnosis. It cannot be possible that everyone calling me with this complaint is clinically correct.

When someone tells me "my spouse is a narcissist" I stop them dead in their tracks and tell them, "unless you’re a doctor, don’t make a diagnosis, describe the behavior." Then we can have a productive conversation. You’d be surprised - or maybe you wouldn’t - how many people cast a spouse in a negative light while unintentionally but simultaneously revealing what a terrible spouse they are, too. Turns out a lot of people getting divorced are married to common assholes.

None of this is a diagnosis of the OP’s wife or to cast aspersions on the OP. it’s just the musings of a betrayed divorce lawyer.

True I’m not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I have taken classes in psychology and abnormal psychology and have read about Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I know my exwife of twenty years and know the way she relates to her friends and family as well as my own. Others who know her also think she demonstrates patterns of someone with this condition. I’ve seen her surface interactions with my sons and how frustrated they become. I don’t have concrete proof that she has the condition but I believe she may.

[This message edited by LonelyHolidays at 7:26 AM, Friday, April 1st]

Gently, whether you’re right or wrong, this marriage is over and she’s not your problem any more. Focus on making yourself healthy, stronger, resilient, happy.

changed his profile pic to have a caption "White Trash Douchebag". My Ex hearted the pic. They are bad people and deserve each other.

Truly individuals of class and distinction. I would hope for the sake of your sons that she pulls her head out of her ass and repairs her relationship with them. Failing that, may they have many years together. Away from innocent bystanders.

Former spouse of a diagnosed (twice--two different doctors) narcissist here. So I'll weigh in.

To put in perspective of what WiseOldFool said, not every asshole is a narcissist, but every narcissist is an asshole. What isn't important is the diagnosis so much as the behavior. You are dealing with someone who has no reason to change, so they won't. What you CAN change is how you react to them. Here's some practical advice.

Set her ring tone to silent. She can leave a message if she needs to talk about something relevant (relevant being finances and children).

Don't discuss anything with her EXCEPT relevant things (those things being finances and children). Don't share your feelings--she will suck you dry in this regard.

Find a good IC who can help you gain perspective on what has happened and how you can move forward.

You can't change her. You can only change how you react to her. And how you should proceed is continuing to separate your emotions and continue working to understand that she is no longer your friend. I haven't spoken to my ex in nearly 6 years. I have no reason to--our children are adults and I accepted a settlement from him in exchange for my lifetime alimony. He hates me with a passion that STILL continues to burn. That's his problem, not mine.

Cat

Thanks again everyone. Yes. It’s not important if she is just very selfish with issues from her childhood, which she has, or has something more complicated to deal with. It’s not my problem to figure her out and why she decides to do things that hurt me and others. It is a habit to interact with her. Even this morning a mutual friend posted an April Fools Facebook post that his wife is pregnant again. The friend has four kids and I knew he was joking.

She liked the post and I posted a comment that this was April Fools trickery, which it was. She tagged me and said she didn’t think of that lol. I’m telling this story just because she doesn’t see how bad what she did really was and still kind of jokes with me like it’s not happening. I know this is minor and she’s trying to be light on Facebook of course. In a way to me it’s like a person who murdered someone close to me joking with me on Facebook. She is out of touch with me and kind of downplays things to our sons. I think she would improve her image by seeming genuine in her feelings if she has regret or cares they are hurt by her choices.

[This message edited by LonelyHolidays at 6:20 PM, Friday, April 1st]

The uptick in people calling me who lead with "my spouse is a narcissist" is staggering. Multiple calls like this a week.

Bona fide narcissism is an extremely rare diagnosis. It cannot be possible that everyone calling me with this complaint is clinically correct.

A couple of comments on this: (1) I have heard that about 10% of all people have a personality disorder (5% borderline, 5% narcissism), and (2) people with personality disorders are unlikely to get evaluated for them... so merely saying that it's a rare diagnosis is not very meaningful.

As others have previously said, someone is not a narcissist because they lie to people, cheat on their spouses, etc. Also, all of us have narcissistic behaviors. But, generally speaking, narcissists will basically make themselves out to be way "better" than they actually are... they will never accept blame for their faults... they will usually make themselves out to be the victim (even when no rationale person would claim to be)... and they seem to take more pleasure in ruining another person than they do in making themselves successful.

There is not a lot that I see about your wife to suggest that she's a narcissist. She basically told you the marriage was over, had an affair, and told you that you need to move on.

So, as OwningItNow said: You *really* need to focus on yourself, your own issues, and getting better on your own. Honestly, I would give you precisely the same advice (perhaps even more strongly) if your ex is actually a narcissist. Based on what you wrote, you are likely a co-dependent. You should work on your problems, not the problems that you perceive her to have.

It doesn’t matter if someone has been diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) or just has narcissist traits. They do not lend themselves to healthy relationships.

@LonelyHolidays your WW definitely shows signs of narc traits.
From what I’ve learned through my extensive research, people with NPD DO NOT CHANGE. Those with narc traits can get "better" with intensive IC and effort. However, many do not get themselves into therapy because they lack self awareness to know they need help. They are also arrogant so they don’t believe they need any help. Your wife may or may not realize what she has done and the pain she has caused you and the family. You have no control over it. There is nothing you can do or say to make her "get it"
What your WW did was discard you. You no longer met her needs. She was a hotshot CEO so she needed a better supply to mirror her newly found grandiose status. Not having sex with you was the devaluation phase where narcs withhold affection and sex. They see sex as a way to control their intimate partner. They don’t know how to deeply connect with people so they mistake sex as intimacy. And since she was in the process of devaluing you, she didn’t need to intimate with you. She was getting ready to discard you. She was just waiting for the right time or the new supply to show up. I know this is very hard to hear. I went through the exact thing as you. But know this. It had nothing to do with you. She would’ve discarded you no matter what you did or were. This is what they do. Narcs get bored and they need new supply to fuel their ever fragile ego. She will do the same to her AP. Her pattern will be almost identical with him.
The best approach is to go no contact or very limited contact. Best communication options are text or email. It will help you heal.
Live your best life. Show your children what integrity, self love, and inner strength look like. All the best to you.

Thank you. I appreciate the advice and suggestions I have received here. Everyone is very helpful. I have been thinking of this topic of Narcissism. Again, I don't really care if she is just selfish or actually narcissistic. I was looking tonight at an article about signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I honestly feel my STBXW meets many of them. I will list some examples. Lack of empathy is a sign. She has had this for years. She has definitely demonstrated this in the divorce. I was at a bar with her and a couple we are friends with. I was talking to the guy friend about her while she was literally bobbing her head to the music without a care in the world. She went out to meet the same friends as well as others. I had lost weight due to becoming increasingly depressed about this upcoming divorce. I had just gotten out of the shower and I was sitting on the floor upset. She laughed and said she was thinking something but won't say it. I asked her to tell me and she said she was thinking I will look good for dating with my recent weight loss. Dating was the farthest thing from my mind. She bought me concert tickets for my birthday shortly after telling me she was unhappy for a show in October. This was still May and she asked if I was ok that we may not be together by the time the show happened, She bought two tickets but already knew she'd file for divorce by the show, which she did in September. Another sign is needing to be the center of attention. She definitely fits this. Her job involves networking. She is good at meeting people, but dominates the conversation. A few people have now opened up to me that she never let me talk when we were all out together. She had to be in charge and dominate every conversation. Envious of others is a sign. I have some members of my family that have lots of money and are very successful. My mom has been pointing out that she was always jealous of my brothers and sister in laws and even kind of resented them for the lifestyle they had. This leads me to sense of entitlement. She is ambitious and hardworking but we both lived beyond our means and had lots of debt. She goes to expensive wineries and we struggled to with debt for years. She made more money than I did so I don't blame her entirely but in this divorce she is renting a very expensive place she can't afford, but over the course of our marriage she had to stay at five star hotels and moved into a 1.4 million dollar place while we still owe on an expensive house she left me in. We can't afford all of this and have huge debt right now, but she feels entitled. There are several other signs in the article I read today including not taking criticism well, incredibly insecure, boundless ambition, etc. She meets every one of them and I am not reaching to think of examples. The most frustrating parts right now to me though are her actions in the divorce. My sixteen year old often lays on his bedroom floor with the curtains closed in the dark. I am trying to help him and it isn't entirely our divorce, but the divorce is a big part of it. My ex moved in with her AP, which is weird for my son due to the cheating and lying for months. My wife doesn't really take credit for upsetting him. She thinks he is just a sensitive and moody teenager. My twenty year old feels she always just talks to him superficially and kind of laughs off things. She thinks making light of the divorce is the best way to deal with it. It doesn't need to be doom and gloom, but she should speak to my sons in a mature way and not deny her part of hurting them. She told my sixteen year old she lied about one thing. The one thing being the affair. She blames the lying on bad advice, which was from my mom for telling her to take the divorce slow to spare my feelings and from her friend, who she says told her if we are going to divorce I don't need to know if she is dating this guy. I disagree since she lived with me and we spent time together often while she called me her best friend still. She blames me and never self reflects. I dwell and overthink arguments and things I wish I had done differently, not just with her but in all of my relationships. Regarding her standoffish attitude towards sex, which lasted for years, It was just that we weren't emotionally connected and at the end she said there was no chemistry physically. It is always either my fault or just a lack of connection in the stars. She could never admit that maybe she was putting me off unfairly. I tried to so hard to understand what I could do to fix this and she just said she couldn't explain it. Now she is in a house we cannot afford and many family members and friends are upset with her, but she sees herself as justified and even says she is saving money and being responsible. She isn't. It takes two to make a marriage work. I wanted so badly to work on whatever she wanted to but she just said we are going through this process and told anyone that would listen. She lied constantly to me during the past ten months and met this guy. They both made this affair happen. She ultimately hurried the divorce along to be with this guy, but won't admit he was a catalyst or any part of her rushing to do divorce me. Instead she sent my mom a list of her complaints about me and didn't own up to anything she did wrong. She continued calling me a best friend and even in the past couple of days has tried calling and texts me. Some is about our son, but part of her just thinks she can get what she wants and will win over the kids and even wear me down to remain her friend. She can be charming and manipulative and can be thoughtful so it works at times. She also knows when to cry to get me and my sons sucked in. She can be very likable but does have some confusing and unhealthy parts of her personality. I believe strongly she has narcissistic traits. I have read about the condition in the past, but looking again it traits and signs of this, I see my STBXW constantly. I think this AP is using her personally. He left five kids across the country to move to this area. He lived in an area here many people see as bad and she took him in and paid for things and is having sex with him. He seems like a classless loser from the information I have about him. He looks rough. She threw away me, who she called her best friend and believed she deserves this new and more exciting life. She didn't just leave me. She left my son. Even before moving out she was going out all weekend with friends at a time I worked fourteen to fifteen hour days. She spent money on wine and socializing. I am not blaming her entirely. It is just crazy that we hung out even throughout this and I was so nice. I went to her stepmom's funeral, where she pushed me away and even talked negatively about me in front of our twenty year old and other family members. She was sending selfies to this guy. Some of this is just her being a bad person, but she is so much into her own self-gratification she is like a toddler that needs to be happy now and who cares how it affects anyone else, financially or emotionally. I know her well and so do my friends and family. The consensus is that she has been living very much for herself and many people say narcissism. Some joke sociopath, which I disagree, but she lives for herself. She has a distorted view of herself because she works with the homeless and things like that, but often seems to put herself first over the kids. I had rose colored glasses for a long time but really feel she has some terrible parts of her personality. I hope for her sake she will work on these. I think her rebound relationship is destined to fail and at this rate her personal relationships seem shallow and failing as well. One last thing I should mention is about her friendships. Her job has her meeting many people and socializing. She has very few long term friendships she maintains. She spends time with a girl she met through a cocktail group, who she has known for less than a year, and another friend she has hiked with and gotten closer to but knew a bit in the past year. She claims to have met her AP about nine months ago. Many of my friends have been friends with me for thirty to forty years since grade school. She has surface level friendships mostly and has surface level conversations with our sons. Both sons agree. She needs to slow down and be a genuine person and not just make things happen for the sake of her happiness. I predict this AP won't work out and she will lose some friends. She is selfish and has been heartless to me for months.

[This message edited by LonelyHolidays at 7:20 AM, Saturday, April 2nd]

Okay we get your wife is not a good person.

But I’d like to know what you are doing for yourself. To get strong and move away from this toxic relationship.

Are you in counseling?

Have you blocked her in all avenues of communication?

Are you putting your needs & kids first?

In the past 12 months I was terminated from my job after 13 years. My boss was your wife - exactly. Honestly two days after being terminated I was happier than I had been in years. I started my own business and have been very successful in meeting new people and working with my clients.

Two days ago I left my church. After more than 25 years I left a congregation being led by a very unChristian person who pretends to be a minister. Best thing I ever did. I am no longer gaslit and disrespected for trying to be a good leader and be a good person.

I don’t expect apologies from either the former boss or minister. I don’t judge myself based on their behavior or twisted irrational feelings.

You should be thankful you got out of the toxic marriage AND have a bright future ahead of you.

Again, I ask what are you doing for YOU?

As you've heard on here already, No Contact! That includes FB or any social media, bloke her and the AP. You won't see any hearts or "white trash douchebag" pics or comments. Pain shopping is very common, I did it too. But I solved that problem by a simple block, it made it easier with the pain shopping and it really benefits yourself from future hurts.

Your stbxww very well may be a narcissist or just displays the typical signs. Narcissism is on a spectrum so she may rank higher on the spectrum than someone else. Not your deal anymore.

Google Grey Rock and implement it immediately. It will save you. It takes some practice but everytime it will become easier.

She isn't going to change. She isn't going to apologize. She doesn't care. I was like you. I couldn't fathom who I was seeing and the words coming out of my exww's mouth. While I knew I couldn't change her, I knew I could help myself. Focus on yourself and your kids. Self care is crucial. Have you done something fun recently? You need to take care of yourself. All this is a hard reality but trust me that you'll get through all this. It will take a lot of hard work on your end and you'll find out just how strong you are even at your weakest.

No contact, grey rock and focus on you!

The data points you describe about your STBXW could also describe a woman who has reached a final decision in her own heart that she wants out of the marriage, and she is working hard to be consistent and steadfast in her communication of that desire to you despite what could be described as manipulative behavior on your part that is calculated to delay, prolong, and needlessly complicate the divorce process. My friend, she has made it clear on on uncertain terms that she wants out. Your best strategy is to let go. Why invest even an ounce of energy into a non-existent relationship with a woman who has unequivocally stated she does not want to be with you?

I have had some IC recently and did deal with gaslighting as well. I’ve taken steps this week to only text and keep the texts brief. I’m severely limiting our interactions now. As far as her making herself clear, she has done things that are showing me her lack of feelings more and more. For months though she also was telling me I’m her best friend and hanging out and even since moving in with the AP she called and seemed to want me still communicating more than necessary. I’m distancing myself though and the reason I’m still trying to change her is despite her not wanting me anymore she should be more interested in our sons. She does some things for them but not much. I suppose it’s on her to repair those relationships though. I would like both of our sons to have a good relationship with her and those relationships are not good now.

For months though she also was telling me I’m her best friend and hanging out and even since moving in with the AP she called and seemed to want me still communicating more than necessary.

Those ambiguous messages have been confusing vulnerable hearts since the beginning of time (I would imagine, lol). It took me an embarrassingly long amount of time to realize that people (most notably the many narcissistic types in the world--of which there are millions) know full well the ambiguous messages they are giving me, and they enjoy the benefits. At my expense. People who sometimes--often--also treat me as if I matter actually enjoy my turmoil.

I mean, WTF? This blew my mind.

I had to reclassify them as "not nice people," selfish, unreliable, only out for their own best interests, cruel, callous, completely dismissive of my feelings. I had to teach myself that there was an entire class of people, some of them in my own FAMILY, who had no desire to offer me consistency in either caring or not caring, and they were not at all bothered by how that would impact me.

Mind blown.

Lesson learned.

Now I know to keep them at arm's length and to follow this one and only rule:

"Do I want to do this thing or participate in what this person wants because it benefits me in some way, knowing that this person will burn me tomorrow and probably the next day? Will I still be ok with the fact that I did this?"

Then and only then do I participate. For me, not for them.

Every single time you call or answer or ask a vulnerable question or answer a prying question or do her a favor, ask yourself if this serves your best (or your kids') interests in any way AND if you will be hurt when she makes fun of you or hurts you or lets you down tomorrow? If the answer is yes + no, only THEN do you know it is safe to participate in what she wants and that you have protected yourself in this process. You will find that 88% of the time you will not do the favor, not answer the phone, not answer her question, or not solve her problem. Because it is usually of no benefit (only risk) to you.

Yes, she has probably known for a long time that you grab onto her small ambiguous messages and find hope. I did it, too. Many of us have. But we can get stronger and understand the ways of the selfish and callous. We didn't know you could pretend to care, but now we do. We didn't know you enjoyed playing with our hope and our hearts to get what you selfishly want, but now we do. We didn't know you truly did not mind hurting us because it makes you feel powerful to yank our chains, but now we fully understand.

P.S. If she has very little time and energy for her own children, she IS a narcissist or even full npd. In my view and experience (quite extensive) that is a sure sign.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 5:30 AM, Monday, April 4th]