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Whew! Easter was more drama! It started out fine, he came over to my house (45 minutes after I told him the boys were awake, he lives 3 minutes away), to do Easter baskets. He sat on the couch and watched them open them up, then proceeded to take a nap. Whatever, I don't care, it's better than him being mean. I just felt bad for the boys. Our youngest kept running up to him to show him stuff and he'd wake up enough to say something then go back to sleep. Then we all went over to his parents house. As the kids were inside going through the eggs they just found, we stayed outside for a minute to talk. I only stayed because he was being nice, saying how he looked at our tractor and he'd help me get its oil changed, how he'll always be around to help with stuff like that, to take care of me. I wasn't really giving him much, just said thanks. In my mind I'm thinking that he's really good at making these promises, and follows through maybe 5% of the time. So then he asks if I'm still talking to my parents. I say yes. And that was that. He loses his cool, starts being mean. Says that me going against him to introduce our kids to my parents and family would be the same as him going against me to introduce them to his slut girlfriend. He gets all heated up to the point that I can't say anything, then storms inside and says goodbye to the kids and leaves (we hadn't even eaten yet). Such a temper tantrum.

His mom said that he called her the next day to rant about how selfish I am. So he really is believing that, which is really sad.

If I understand correctly he was supposed to have the kids for 3 nights but could only manage one night?

Yep! This is the case. And after he left Easter, he left town about 10 minutes after that. His mom thinks that was his plan all along. Pick a fight, blame me, then get to go spend the rest of the day with his slut.

Going forward, maybe it's time to institute some new boundaries? How about gray rocking him on personal stuff and ONLY discuss kids and finances at your convenience via text/family planning app?

Maybe this is a good idea. I am trying my best to gray rock him. It is so hard to not get sucked in and defend myself! Because of course he takes me gray rocking as me being a b!tch. "We only talk about things that you want to talk about and that's how our whole marriage was." Uhhh ok, more like, I refuse to let you verbally abuse me anymore.

Like him spending time at your place with the kids as a family, or you going over to his place for family activities, for example.

I still hold out hope that we can do this for the kids, for the big events like holidays and birthdays. Maybe that's naive of me. I do recognize that at this point, whether we can or not is completely in his court. Meaning that I can be civil in those situations, but I don't know if he can, and if he can't, then I won't agree to doing it. It's not good for the kids to see their dad constantly blowing up at me and then leaving early.

He is a mess. He's all over the place. He is constantly flipping between being nice and being mean, and I think it's all just a ploy to get me to feel sorry for him. The sad part is that he feels sorry for himself and truly believes that. He can't fathom why his family and I don't feel sorry for him and it pisses him off. I think he really believes that what he did to me and our kids, what he is continuing to do wasn't that bad. That it's really not a big deal. But I know it is. It's maddening trying to talk to him when this is what he really believes himself.

I did talk to a new lawyer and I loved her! She felt like the perfect fit for me. Right now I'm in the process of starting initial paperwork with her so that we can file, but she told me it'll still be a couple of weeks before that happens. I feel better doing little steps to take back control. I'm scared because I don't know what child support is going to look like, and how much I'm going to have to work to make ends meet. But I know that that's not a good enough reason not to divorce. I know that people have gone through this before me, and gotten through, and are even happier afterwards. I remind myself of that when I get scared about the future.

Please discuss recouping family $$ for the $$ he spent maintaining his double life - look at $$ spent on ALL AP's and their families if you can. 1/2 that money is yours!

I added this to my list to ask my lawyer! I know of several big ticket items he bought for his sluts, and I can just imagine the things I don't know about...

Pick a fight, blame me, then get to go spend the rest of the day with his slut.

Yes, unfortunately, this strategy is predictable. Happened to me too! On our anniversary Wouldn't be surprised if his new (?) propensity for inappropriate napping is due to burning the midnight oil during late nights/road travel to be with APs.

Maybe that's naive of me. I do recognize that at this point, whether we can or not is completely in his court. Meaning that I can be civil in those situations, but I don't know if he can, and if he can't, then I won't agree to doing it. It's not good for the kids to see their dad constantly blowing up at me and then leaving early

Here's my opinion - which you are welcome to take or leave. This may sound harsh, which isn't my intention. Although I never had to deal with custody situations in my marriage, I am a child of divorce. So can speak directly to some of what you are experiencing.

You are filing for divorce. Which includes custody agreements - such as who the kids spend holidays and birthdays with. I hope you and your lawyer won't file ANY custody agreements based on the untenable fantasy that you can play nice family on holidays/birthdays "for the kids". This type of agreement may work for SOME divorces, and SOME spouses, but for the majority of divorces there is a compelling backstory as to WHY the divorce happened. Which shouldn't be buried or lied about. Yes, even in cases of abuse. Your kids will one day connect the dots, and I hope you'll always be honest with them in an age appropriate manner. TBH your husband has abused you and continues to abuse you. He may never have been physical with you or your kids, but what you've experienced is abuse none the less. IMHO and personal life experience, PRETENDING to be a united family on special occasions with your abusive STBX - playing nice family with an abuser - is harmful to you AND your kids:

-Enables continued abuse of you.

-Tells your kids it's okay to eat shit sandwiches. That abuse is okay.

-Gaslights your kids - as they get older they'll see the real him with more clarity. They already see him abusing you NOW. He won't be getting a personality transplant anytime soon. Raising kids is not easy! As the kids get older, some of his abusive behaviors may extend to THEM. As they age they will assert their personalities and boundaries with him. Which is natural 'cause he's their Dad. Which will cause friction. By attending celebrations together you are helping to normalize his abusive behavior in front of your kids. Which may invalidate their direct experience with his personality. So, your kids may come to believe that abuse is normal and acceptable. And what they know and feel must be discredited, 'cause if the way he treated you is okay, so the way he treats them must be okay. Hope this makes sense! Sorry if I'm getting twisty on this. This is theorizing.....

-One big happy family on holidays scenario serves his image management. What he did can't be that bad 'cause hey, we're one big happy family! Is he pushing for this even though he doesn't seem capable of following through on it? If so, you can bet it's all about image management for him.

-You may muddle through with this forced scenario for a while. BUT Your STBX seems like the type that will bring another woman into the picture ASAP. You can manage the kid's exposure to OW for a while with a clause in the divorce agreement. But what about when the 6 month no OW rule lapses? Are you going to play happy EXTENDED family with her and her family as well?

I know that people have gone through this before me, and gotten through, and are even happier afterwards. I remind myself of that when I get scared about the future.

Of course you're scared. But you are strong as well. And you are growing stronger with each passing day. You've grown so much! You can do this. Good luck with the new lawyer! And you WILL be happier once you are on the other side of this turmoil. And your kids will be in a better place with YOU as a sane parent they can count on in your own home.

ETA:

Having a logical and enforceable custody schedule doesn't mean you both can't attend the kid's school plays and sports events, high school and college graduations, marriages etc. You arrive separately and sit separately and are cordial (gray rock cordial) if forced to interact.

And a reasonable custody schedule doesn't mean they can't spend time with his family or YOU or HIM on holidays. You just don't do it together. One example from my family - us kids spent Christmas Eve and Christmas mornings with one parent alternately each year.Christmas Day we were back at the parent's house where we didn't spend Christmas Eve.

And, of course, custody agreements are adjustable. If something isn't working, it can be changed. The arrangements aren't written in stone. I hope this helps, FWS.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 2:57 AM, Saturday, April 23rd]

I agree with BoundaryBuilder. Doing the holidays together won't work with this kind of person. As the child of divorce, I can also say that it isn't fair to your kids. It's confusing, and they can feel the tension, so every single holiday will have a cloud of doom hanging over it. Is that really what you want? Do you want them to associate the holidays with bad feelings and outbursts. Yes you might lose some holiday time, but you can schedule your separate holidays on a different day. Imagine holidays without the stress of thinking and wondering about when he is going to lose it? Imagine creating a happy holiday for you and your kids that YOU have complete control over. This is what your kids need, they don't need you to try and have some weird five days of the year marriage, it does nobody any good to try and do that. Please for the sake of your children don't do this.

FuturewasStolen, so far you've gotten some great advice, I hope that you take some of the advice to heart and begin to apply some of these techniques to getting out of infidelity.

You keep holding onto that dream of maybe he will come to his senses and realize what he has given up... a wonderful, beautiful and faithful wife and 4 beautiful kid's.

I don't think he will ever see what he is losing, at least not for a long time or he really hits rock bottom. I don't think thats happened yet. It's not in him to anyways to be what you wanted him to be. The person you are now seeing is who he his; a cheater, liar and emotionally abusive and very emotionally immature.

I hope you will realize that he keeps playing to your vulnerable and trusting side. He shows some interest, acts nice and then BAM! He starts attacking you and then runs away.

This is his game. But you can do better than that by not responding knowing the outcome is always the same.

Try to develop some emotional and physical distance between the two of you so that you don't get yourself caught playing into his hand each time you see him. I believe this will help you to develop more confidence and inner strength to stand up to him and to not allow his abuse anymore.

I think this was my biggest issue too. I believed my now deceased WH would change. But in truth he kept setting me up for failure and I continued to buy into his lies which resulted in dealing with more emotional pain. My daughter was the one who gave me inner strength to not be so vulnerable to him. And I began to see changes in myself.

I think this lawyer is going to be a good one for you. I hope that she takes him down a few notches. Gives him a taste of his own medicine. You need someone strong on your side and I believe that she is going to be it.

His behavior really irks me. The way you have been describing him reminds me of a boy with a high school crush. He is so emotionally immature. Do you see it?

I know that someone asked you if your WH was an alcoholic. I don't think I saw a response from you.

I am so so sorry that your husband tricked you into a life he could never provide. He made you believe he was capable of being dependable and loving and trustworthy and he knew all along he wasn't those things.

This right here sums it up.

BoundaryBuilder and nomudnolotus. Wow. Just wow. I have been so focused on not tearing the holidays apart for my children. I wanted to save them from having to have two. Save them from that hurt. We had said it from the beginning, back before he got so emotionally abusive, and I think I got it stuck in my head. Doing the big stuff together as a family was the ultimate co-parenting goal. If we did that, we would be doing it right. I wouldn't fail. Fail my kids, myself, him, others' judgement, I'm not really sure? But it was so stuck in my mind that this was the right thing to do for my kids, that it would hurt them the least.

Gaslights your kids - as they get older they'll see the real him with more clarity. They already see him abusing you NOW. He won't be getting a personality transplant anytime soon. Raising kids is not easy! As the kids get older, some of his abusive behaviors may extend to THEM

THIS! I am terrified of my kids learning this behavior from their dad. His own dad was emotionally abusive while they were growing up. (He has since gotten help and has gotten better, he is a wonderful grandpa.) I want to end the cycle. My hope is that divorcing him will help. But I want to do everything in my power to show my boys how to be real, stand-up good men.

-One big happy family on holidays scenario serves his image management. What he did can't be that bad 'cause hey, we're one big happy family! Is he pushing for this even though he doesn't seem capable of following through on it? If so, you can bet it's all about image management for him.

This makes total sense too! He is allllll about the image! I think that's the only reason why he's giving me so much money right now. So that he can tell everyone what a good guy he is. I think he legitimately thinks that what he did was not that big of a deal. He thinks it's not that bad. He's confused why everyone is still hung up on it and is acting like he did something wrong.

-You may muddle through with this forced scenario for a while. BUT Your STBX seems like the type that will bring another woman into the picture ASAP.

I haven't even thought about this. I should have though. I don't think I could sit there and play "happy family" with this OW. It would be one thing if he left and then met someone new and had a legit healthy relationship. But the woman who knows what he did, what he was doing, and choose to stay with him? I don't think I could do it.

As the child of divorce, I can also say that it isn't fair to your kids. It's confusing, and they can feel the tension, so every single holiday will have a cloud of doom hanging over it.

I don't want that for my kids. I want them to be happy, not to dread holidays and big days because they know it's going to be filled with tension. I would hate even more if they started to feel guilty or responsible (mom is sad on the holiday because dad is around and she's only inviting him for my sake). I'm not a child of divorce. I don't have that perspective at all. It's hard for me to figure this all out. What I initially thought would be best for them might not be after all.

If I do split the holidays though, it's going to have to come from me. And it's one more thing that he'll be able to say is my fault. He TRIED to do them together. He WANTED to make it work. I'm the b!tch not letting him see his kids on holidays.

I don't think he will ever see what he is losing, at least not for a long time or he really hits rock bottom. I don't think thats happened yet. It's not in him to anyways to be what you wanted him to be. The person you are now seeing is who he his; a cheater, liar and emotionally abusive and very emotionally immature.

I think you're right. He is a completely different person now. Most recent example: we finally had good weather this weekend. I spent hours and hours redoing the flower beds outside our front door. Lugging dirt, rocks, lots of hard work. I was thrilled with the result and can't wait to keep going. His response when he saw them dropping off the kids: PISSED! He was so insulted that I hadn't done that work the four years that we lived here, and that I only did it now. He was so self-absorbed and selfish that he only saw me doing this as an insult to him. WOW. He really is a selfish person when it comes down to it.

I was talking to a friend and telling her about a situation that had happened that he was acting controlling. She asked me if I thought he did it on purpose. And I don't think he did. I think that, he was just being selfish, and thinking about what he wanted and how to get it. He didn't think about my needs/feelings. He didn't think about how if he did it, it would be controlling. He just thought about what he wanted. He would never see himself as controlling or manipulative because that honestly wasn't his intention. So can you still get mad at someone for being controlling and manipulative if they didn't do it "on purpose"?

I know that someone asked you if your WH was an alcoholic. I don't think I saw a response from you.

I know that he's been drinking more ever since he moved out. I don't think he's an alcoholic. I think he's a narcissist.

I do have more concerns about holidays, and would love any advice. In the time that we've been together, I've grown really close to his family. While I'm getting back to being closer to mine too, they live 13 hours away. So for holidays, we always just go to his family. If we're splitting holidays, does that mean I don't get to spend them with his family either? His family will be so upset! So for Thanksgiving for example: years that I have them, we either somehow go to see my family, or just spend it at home ourselves, and years that he has them they get to go to the big family (his side) gathering? That sucks. Does divorcing him mean I have to divorce his family too, even if neither of us want that (me and his family, not me and him)? And what about birthdays? Do they really get two separate parties? And Christmas morning? My kids are still so young, they believe in Santa, and want to wake up to presents under the tree! Does that now rotate houses and I only get to see it every other year? Is this what is best for them? If it is, I will do it. I will put them first. I just hate the idea of missing so much. Divorce is so much harder than it seems. As soon as you get yourself to accept one part and be ok with it, something else that you didn't think of pops up and throws you for a loop again. I'm heartbroken and I hate him for doing this to us.

If I do split the holidays though, it's going to have to come from me. And it's one more thing that he'll be able to say is my fault. He TRIED to do them together. He WANTED to make it work. I'm the b!tch not letting him see his kids on holidays.

Nobody is going to buy this, nobody. There are very very few divorced couples that do joint holidays due to many of the reasons already listed and some others not listed.

Alot of what you are asking is going to depend on his family and on him. It is typical that no matter how much your spouses family likes you, you lose them in the divorce :(

Not always but typical.

As much as you're imagining these magical holidays where you all get along. From what you said that is NOT going to happen.

I can tell you this, my holidays were much better after my parents divorced. No more drunken dad and pissed off mom. No more fighting or even worse, the ominous silence.

My dad's family not only divorced my mom, but us kids too.

But you know what, it was okay, because my mom was our rock, and even when we didn't have a lot of money, she made everything good.

Then my amazing stepdad came into our life, and he was a real example of what a man should be, and how a man should treat a woman. A man with integrity, loyalty, patience, love.

What I learned from my mom leaving? You don't have to let people abuse you even when you love them. You could still be happy, sure things would be different, but different isn't always bad.

Futurewasstolen

I had the same dream about big shared holidays in the beginning of this. I even thought I could do them with the OW! Delusion keeps us going in the beginning. It is too painful to really accept the entire reality at once. We also currently live a 15 hour flight away from my family. We have always done the big holidays with his family. DDay was almost 3 months ago, and easter was our first holiday in this new reality. I learned two big things:

1) Kids want to be with family on holidays, the more people the better
2) There is NO WAY I can continue to do holidays with his family, much less him and the OW

This has led me to decide I need to take the kids back to my hometown, where my family is. Where their cousins are. We would do year round school and 3 or 4 times a year they would spend 2-3 weeks with my WH. This will only work if WH agrees, but I think he will because he was an absentee father at best. He only sees them 3 hours a week now. He says he will see them more when they are allowed around OW, because I guess she will be doing the childcare then.

So because I will have the big family and the cousins and frankly, all the effort (I always made our holidays amazing) we will always celebrate the holidays at home with my family, even if it is not on the actual day. So maybe some years Santa will come on Dec 19th before they fly out to see their father. That's my plan. I am not going to miss a single christmas with my kids.

......sure things would be different, but different isn't always bad.

So true! FWS, make your OWN holiday traditions! If your little ones believe in Santa, well, Santa could visit twice because he knows the kids have two homes. Santa is super flexible and giving that way

I do have more concerns about holidays, and would love any advice.

Why don't you start a new thread asking for advice on how to share holidays from folks who've gone through divorce negotiations and lived to tell the tale? Your lawyer is a family law lawyer (?) so they should be a resource as well. Have you looked online for information? Lots of resources on how to divorce a manipulator out there. One piece of advice is to make the family plan as comprehensive as possible. What time/date will the exchanges happen? Who does the exchange? How? Where? How will gift exchanges happen? Minimize all possible grey areas that could be exploited by STBX.

I'm the b!tch not letting him see his kids on holidays.

Reframe this. You're "sharing" holidays. Each parent gets a SEPARATE fair share. Here's a thought......

It's possible he may surprise you and not be that invested in the whole thing. Just maybe it's too much trouble to set up a tree and buy the presents, plan a birthday party on his time etc. So he might be okay with taking the kids on Christmas Day while they spend Christmas Eve/Morning with you. Take the birthday kid out for lunch or dinner while the real celebration happens at your house. Child custody agreements are negotiated! So discuss strategies with the lawyer to negotiate a plan that YOU feel would be in your children's best interests. While being fair of course

Doing the big stuff together as a family was the ultimate co-parenting goal.

I'm guessing here - YOU take care of all logistics and do all the hard work to make the holidays happen while his role is to show up. Right? If so, of course he's all about maintaining joint family celebrations because YOU do all the work. You're getting divorced so if he wants to start his OWN traditions with the kids on his time that's his job. It's good you're getting the divorce specifics nailed down now - while no OW is in the immediate vicinity. Once OW is in the picture he may be more motivated to spend holiday time/supervision with the kids 'cause she may do the heavy lifting for him. Putting visitatacion precedents in place ASAP seems prudent. Of course you want him to spend time with the kids 'cause he's their father. The goal is for HIM to spend time with them - not delegate to the OW. I spent many a miserable visit to my Dad's house interacting mostly with his second wife - he didn't take any time off from work during the week and we were lucky if he saw us for any extended time on the weekends. We NEVER took a vacation with them. So, we spent most of each visit with my Stepmom - not my Dad. Which wasn't much fun for me or my siblings. Or her.

Does divorcing him mean I have to divorce his family too?

Divorce doesn't automatically mean his family is cut out of your life - you can see them with the kids during YOUR holiday time. Without HIM. It's great you're mending bridges with your family! Maybe you can start some new holiday traditions with your family as well? Discuss ramifications regarding family travel in the contract with the lawyer.

But I want to do everything in my power to show my boys how to be real, stand-up good men.

How about therapy for you with a counselor who understands abuse and trauma? Your local women's hotline can recommend therapists. And why not take advantage of your STBXH's insurance while you have access to it? Seems you could use professional support to to help YOU. What helps you helps your kids. Therapy will give you tools to help your sons grow into good men. A therapist can also help strategize around the inevitable conflict with STBX as the divorce gets moving. Now's the time to get professional help - use the divorce as a motivator to really understand the unhealthy dynamics in your marriage. So you can be free. Wouldn't it feel great if his button pushing didn't phase you as much as it does now? A therapist can also help you stay mentally healthy. Which is so important because you must be the sane parent. The safe parent. And, eventually work with the therapist to "fix your picker" as they say - take some time to process your marriage, learn to spot red flags in relationships, set appropriate boundaries, etc. so your next relationship is healthy and strong - with an emotionally mature fully reciprocating human being. That is my hope for you, FuturewasStolen.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 5:40 AM, Wednesday, April 27th]

BoundaryBuilder - I took your advice (and many others have said it too) and reached out to a therapist to schedule an appointment. I'm waiting to hear back from them, but I'm hoping to get in to see them soon.

I think it's really setting in how abusive he has become. On Saturday I was feeling sad and I opened a drawer where I keep some sentimental stuff. In there was a big grey hoodie and a blue shirt, among other things. They were both from back before we were even married and were really emotional for me, I used to wear them. The first time WH moved out I slept with that hoodie every night. WH knew this. And when I opened the drawer on Saturday I found out that he had come into the house on his own and taken them. I sat on the floor and cried. They represented happy memories to me. And he took them. He keeps finding ways to hurt me, to take from me. And the worst part is that I know he was doing it as a punishment. Because I know what day he came to get them, and its the same day that I took a step towards setting boundaries. He had called me and wanted emotional support for something and I refused to give it to him. So he responded by taking the hoodie and shirt, knowing it would hurt me.

I know you will say change the locks! He is not welcome in this house anymore! But I've felt afraid to do that because he is still paying the mortgage. I haven't felt like I could stand up to him in this area and it's been killing me. I don't even have privacy or safety in my own home. That's going to change this week (hopefully). I talked to my lawyer and she told me that things are going to start moving quickly this week, and hopefully we'll be filing by the end of the week. I'll finally be able to not be afraid of him. He won't be able to stop paying the bills by court order. So I get some power back. I want to be able to tell him that he can't come in this house.

I feel sick all the time. Especially when I know I'm going to see him I get super anxious, but also kind of all day I feel anxious because I never know if he's going to call to facetime with the boys. It's constant fight or flight adrenaline and it's exhausting. I feel so worn down. Like he's been beating me down for so long and I'm just tired.

FuturewasStolen-

My WH does stuff like this too! When he visits our children once a week he likes it if I am there so he can insult me or try to sleep with me and see me look sad. You know, collect his ego kibbles.

So I stopped being there when he would come and have a friend or babysitter do the handoff instead. And so he started leaving things that would hurt my feelings. For example, we had this keychain made from something from our wedding that he used for his car keys. And last week, (2 months after he left) he left it broken on the counter after visiting the kids. Why wouldn't he just throw it away if it broke? Why would he leave it for me?

He also turned on the digital picture frame that showed our family photos. I had turned it off because it made me sad and he turned it back on.

I'm 100% positive they do these things to get their evil little ego kibbles. I'm sure both our WHs were just delighted doing these things imagining us upset and sad and missing them. Cheaters are really their own breed of messed up. Narcissism.

Can you limit the video chats to certain pre-arranged times? Like every week the same? I would NOT be ok with random surprise video chats.

[This message edited by robinbird12 at 5:34 AM, Monday, May 2nd]