SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hadnt checked on your thread for a while...checked in tonight and read this:

"Because I value the marriage and our son's wellbeing so much, I respectfully request that you agree to marriage counseling...."

Cue massive eye roll and eye watering gag.

Detestable.

Continued strength to you ma'am.

"Because I value the marriage and our son's wellbeing so much, I respectfully request that you agree to marriage counseling...."

Wow, that's some next level gaslighting. I would posit that his smorgasbord of actions would constitute the exact opposite of that statement. I'd love to know what he characterises as 'an actual marriage'?

Sigyn, I have been very impressed reading this thread, especially your thoughts on not racing to a D. Your WH richly deserves one, but it will be on your terms and when you are ready. My D-Day (well, 2nd after 9 years of what I thought was rock-solid R) was around the same time as yours - maybe a month before? - and I am thoroughly impressed with your overall pragmatic approach to what is an absolute earth-shifting nightmare to deal with.

I can get past the actual affairs themselves, said APs are but human excrement on my running shoes. But it is the AUDACITY that I have found so hard to deal with. The sheer AUDACITY to live a lie, to maintain a campaign of gaslighting your best friend/spouse, the sheer number of times you would have trustingly not even given them going out a second thought, the knowledge that despite knowing it was going to likely result in kids being emotionally scarred for life - but they kept doing it for a random piece of tail...it's absolutely infuriating. If you're like me, if kids weren't part of the equation, you wouldn't urinate on them if they spontaneously combusted. But going forward, our WW/WHs are entwined in our lives because of the kids.

The point is (and you seem to be doing this well), swallow the dog-poo sandwiches begrudgingly at the moment (ala marriage counselling); if anything, a counsellor worth their salt will laughingly shut down your WHs attempts to deflect blame. Once he is suitably chastened, you can crack on with settlement...if you continue down the D route. There is no rush.

Be generous to yourself, and also realise that there is no manual dictating an average time to convincing yourself that 'I should be kind of over this part of it now'. I am three and a half months out, and I burst into tears apropos of nothing on a treadmill at the gym tonight, after not crying for a good month. Acknowledge the feelings as they come, but don't dwell on them. Breathe.

You're an inspiration, and I am drawing some inspiration from your attitude, as well as the advice you are being so wonderfully given.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 1:31 PM, Thursday, November 3rd]

Aaaaaaaand, he has Covid. Wants sympathy. Needs some soup. Needs some meds from the cabinet, a prescription picked up, his "sick clothes" he wears to lounge in when he's ill, the electric kettle in the apartment isn't working can he have ours or can I get a new one, oh and the tea caddy. Texting me in great detail his symptoms, how exhausted he is, his debates about whether he should call in to that one important meeting. He is in his element when he's sick, I truly think he enjoys it. I've always thought that (uncharitably, but seriously).

Aaaaaaaand, he has Covid.

Thank god we are two years into coping with covid. The fear is not as strong. Tell him to get his own meds/soup/sick clothes/kettle/etc

I don’t know why your last post was the one that prompted me to reply - I’ve been following your whole thread, checking every day, rooting for you!

I’ve no advice, I feel I don’t have the right to dish out advice when I’m no good at taking it. But I hope you know how much of a survivor you are.

You are doing so well. I am glad you are keeping us updated so we can help you stay focused on what's best for you. Who cares what he wants including meds and whatever else. He can figure out instacart.

We know he definitely knows how to hire people for services so just ignore him and let him figure it out. He has some balls thinking you should take care of him. I am sorry he can't even give you the personal space you deserve!!!

Oh of course he does.

I just got it too, wah. And yet somehow I've managed to not ask anyone to get me anything. It's called Door Dash.

He fired you as his wife when he stepped out. Tell him to text one of his sex workers - they can deal with his pathetic ass!

Yeah sorry, he can take his whining and shove it. Tell him to call a prostitute to come service him. Outrageous.

I was going to reply along the lines of the two previous comments.

He surely can get the help of one of the many women he has been having fun with. I believe they should be able to service him behond the sexual services he has been getting.

As soon as he stepped through the infidelity door, any and all responsability you had towards him gets revoked.

His DECISIONS, his CONSEQUENCES.

[This message edited by justanotherperson at 8:44 PM, Thursday, November 3rd]

Have you asked to see his test results? He should be able to snap a pic of them and text that to you. Then you can reply with links to Instacart, DoorDash, Uber Eats, and Amazon.

You don't owe him any more than that.

Aaaaaaaand, he has Covid. Wants sympathy. Needs some soup. Needs some meds from the cabinet, a prescription picked up, his "sick clothes" he wears to lounge in when he's ill, the electric kettle in the apartment isn't working can he have ours or can I get a new one, oh and the tea caddy. Texting me in great detail his symptoms, how exhausted he is, his debates about whether he should call in to that one important meeting. He is in his element when he's sick, I truly think he enjoys it. I've always thought that (uncharitably, but seriously). duh

I'll be honest with you and I hate to admit this, but I'd probably capitulate to with a box of whatever junk he wanted (canned soup and not my good homemade) and dump it all off on his doorstep so as not to have to deal with him. My own fWH has always needed lots of sympathy for any kind of illness or injury, real or imagined, and I'd rather not have to deal with the bellyaching. He was a middle child and and lost in the shuffle. For him, that's when he got the most attention so he takes it hard when his booboos are ignored, so I have to admit, I'm pretty well inured.

On the one hand, I do see the merits of stepping back and not allowing him to manipulate you, but on the other, if you're like me, this is probably way beyond your comfort level right now. It opens you up to years of bitching about "that time he had Covid and you wouldn't help". Whether you R or D, it's still going to become a grievance and part of the family history, something he can spin into a false equivalence, as if hiring hookers behind your back for years was somehow equal to snubbing him when he's sick. I just hate giving out that kind of ammo even though I KNOW it's stupid and pointless.

So yeah, I don't feel like you'd be betraying your own authenticity either way. If you want to dump off a box of stuff or if you don't, there's no wrong answer.

It’s going to test your new boundaries but he doesn’t get access you like this anymore. He is still expecting the caregiver which is typical

He has snapped his fingers at you, expecting you to do his bidding. Was there any sort of apology or sheepishness “I’m so sorry to ask this but I really need your help?” Or was it just expected you would run around gathering his crap?

I would only drop off the kettle and pjs at the doorstep. Text him it’s there and there is online shopping for anything else he needs, please respect NC unless it’s to do with son. If he throws a wobbly remind him you’ve quit the role of house maid. If you give an inch right now he will take a mile, any show of support won’t be enough because you can’t go “full wife” like he is expecting, so my two cents is don’t even put the effort in other than, kettle & sick clothes in a plastic bag on the doorstep. If you want to go the extra mile include a couple of local takeaway menus in the bag.

My xWH was a nightmare when he got sick, for over a week he would carry on. The leading up to being sick, being sick then the poor-him-so-exhausted recovery days after being sick. Ugh! I don’t mind catching a cold now, I even have a eye roll at how easy it’s managed without xWH around. when I catch something I simply shut up and take my vit C, buy my cold & night tablets, drink fluids, rest.. you know like a fricking adult handles being unwell and I bounce back in a couple of days, done, no drama or drawn out theatrics. It’s unbelievable how extravagant he made being sick was... so dumb.

Edit: so sorry I keep editing this. I just read back a few pages. On the topic of group activities with your son. One thing I did which was so wonderful was take up beginner surf lessons with my niece and beginner karate lessons with my young nephew and it was a blast. They are like my kids and it was fantastic having a family outing that took all our minds off what was going around, it also bled into after hours, excited talks about the lessons, online shopping for merch, laughing about uncoordinated moves that left us on our buts, it put the lessons to the very front of their minds. It was thrilling, fun and that little kick of endorphins didn’t hurt. The best thing was it did create an important bonding topic that had nothing to do with my xWH or the divorce. I’m still doing it well after D, this winter past I took them to the snow where we did beginner snowboard lessons together, it was a great getaway and it’s a couple of weeks past now and they still excitedly talk to me about it and give me (unrealistic) ideas for next time. It just takes some calling around but basic beginner martial arts for the both of you might be a fun group hobby to get into? It’s fairly affordable. For surfing and snowboarding we rented the gear. IDK if you’re looking for ideas like this but it was so great getting away from the house, doing something that completely took my mind off everything, was healthy and it lead into anticipation, something I lacked completely after Dday. Sorry for going off topic here.

[This message edited by LostInHisFog at 9:03 AM, Friday, November 4th]

I didn't want him to come into the house while he's sick so I got together WH's clothes and meds and his tea and some kind of icky soup he'd made and froze in the distant past and I left it in the garage. I did not donate the electric kettle to the cause, nor respond to his dithering about his work schedule. (He's staying in the apartment over the garage, so the location I left things is on the bottom step of his apartment...)

I have a lot of mixed feelings about boundaries right now. I think I feel both better and worse when I have space from WH, just in different ways. Like seeing him loosens the tight bands across my chest, but then it puts me in such a terrible head space right after and that bad head space stays with me for days. I sometimes think it's not worth feeling the bands loosen around my chest if the fallout is so painful and long.

I want to take care of him on some level, I truly don't want anything bad to happen to him or for him to be in any pain. I also know that he doesn't reciprocate and my eyes have never been more open to that. He doesn't have the instincts that I have to protect and nurture. And it's not because I'm a woman and he's a man - men can and do protect and nurture, my dad was a huge nurturer of all of us daughters, and also protective and loving. So I know it's possible, and I can't help but feel if WH had those instincts, he'd also have felt guilt at some point in his years of cheating and lying. He'd have driven home one day, thinking about me innocently going about my day while he's out fucking prostitutes and sidepieces who he calls his girlfriends, and he'd feel for one second like: she doesn't deserve this, what am I doing to her?? But I think his lack of protectiveness, empathy and nurturing kept him from having any remorse. Maybe it's all connected to that?

And so while I want to remove that part of myself from him just to show him how it is to have someone you expect to have your back doing a trust fall towards you and you just let them smash into the ground, I just can't. I won't like mop his head with a cold washcloth and feed him soup with a spoon but I also want to maintain my own integrity right now. If it were a neighbor I didn't particularly like or know well, I'd leave soup and medication for them at their door. So- WH got that.

But I also didn't emotionally engage with him and do the emotional part of the labor he expects from me. That's the boundary I have to maintain, at least in my own mind. It hurts me too much to do that, to engage emotionally and dig in to his needs by listening and sympathizing and checking in frequently with his needs. So I won't do that.

I have to find a way to keep myself safe and it can be so confusing to sort out what parts are justifications - like is it that I want to care for him the way I used to, and this is an excuse to call a time out and do that? Versus what parts are real - like if I ignored him, the bad feelings I'd carry around wouldn't be worth the points scored or boundary placement? My mind is such a mess. I don't know people ever sort their own secret motives out. :(

On a different subject, thank you all for the 'weird class' suggestions, I am diving into this idea head first!! I'm planning to do one for just me, and one with my son if he's up for it and we can fit it in our schedule!! I love the idea of martial arts or something that can channel a lot of physical and emotional energy, and then also love the idea of something more creative... not sure what that will be yet. This genuinely excites me! I think it will be so good for us and so necessary to get out of my own head!!!

[This message edited by Sigyn at 3:54 PM, Friday, November 4th]

You did the perfect thing. How you would treat a neighbor is a good bar and I'd stick with that. You'd pick up a package or drop off supplies for a neighbor but not hand feed them homemade soup. Beyond the practical matters of dropping off supplies, I would just counsel you to figure out how to protect yourself from the emotional load of his texts. It's not so much that he expects stuff dropped off, but that he wants to be the center of your attention and to receive sympathy. He expects you to absorb all of that, and he has no right to. I don't think it matters much if you give him a kettle or not, just be careful not to give him your vulnerability.

With regards to the tightness in your chest loosening when you see him, I wonder if the much discussed joint counseling will help in that it will take away the intimate feeling of being alone with him in your home that might be a Pavlovian reminder of good times, but still allow you to process things with and regarding him.

I'm excited to hear what fun classes you try out!

Thread jack!

Lostinhisfog - I've been taking my kiddos snowboarding for the last 3 winters and we've also gotten into surfing - did a terrible "class" in LA last September (2021), then a REALLY good one in Costa Rica in March. We all 3 got up and surfed, while WH watched (the instructor was quite a looker, too! ) We're (hopefully) doing it again in Mexico next March. We also do Disney together. Oh, and we saw 2 AMAZING concerts (Hella Mega Tour and RHCP), just the 3 of us. These are things I share with my kids that my husband wants no part of. I stopped asking.

When my kids tell stories to their kids about the adventures they had growing up, it's going to be like my WH barely existed. His choice to be a self-centered, self-absorbed, self-hating, comically lazy, mess-of-a-man.

end TJ

Sigyn, I think your level of concern and action regarding your WH's man-flu is spot on. It is so easy for us to slip back into the caregiver role. A few months after DDay, I was visiting my bestie 4 hrs away from home. My WH had a gout flare up while I was gone. I let myself get guilted into coming home early to help him. Dumb, Trapped74, DUMB!! But it's been well established that your intuition and strength are damn-near unparalleled!

I get the point about regarding/responding to your WH as if he were a neighbor…but I also highly doubt I’d do that for my neighbor if he had been throwing his dog shit in my backyard for the last few years. 🤷🏻‍♀️

This is the same thing I had been cautioning you about earlier. And while I don’t begrudge you for helping him based on your own integrity, I’d also caution you that he hasn’t even earned the position of being a good neighbor. The benefit of this interaction is that it’s a great opportunity to evaluate both what your WH has truly earned…and to get clear where your own sense of "integrity" can still be confused when you are looking through an emotional lens. You mention this in a round about way in your post so I think you are, at a minimum, aware of the internal conflict. It’s very challenging when your good qualities (ie, integrity) have been the means by which you have been subjugated to mistreatment.

My response is not to encourage a shift in your behavior as much as it is to bring it to your awareness - that your historically good qualities may not serve you in this particular arena. It’s the same reason why we don’t pick up hitch-hikers. It may be fine; it may not be. Either way, the risk is the deciding factor - not our good qualities. And that’s the shift in perspective that we have to keep front and center.

Your WH has already WELL demonstrated that he poses a significant risk. It’s a lot like being given a rattlesnake for a pet. You may be a fabulous pet owner…but some situations just don’t warrant that quality.

truthsetmefree

I was watching a panel on TV one night ~ one of the panelists was a feminist academic of some sort. She said something along the lines of "Michelle Obama said when they go low, you go high ~ No way! When they go low, I'm gonna come after them". I like her sentiment (although she then went on to suggest women need to take to the streets and start burning stuff before the camera and mic swiftly moved to the next panelist). I think she would vote no to the soup delivery.

Sigyn

My dad cooks really bad soup with undercooked beans and small bones that could be a choking hazard if you want me to mail some over. He has also gotten into the curries lately which are so overheated they could kill a grown man in one gulp.

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 2:43 AM, Saturday, November 5th]

Everyone has different boundaries and you stayed true to your authentic self, even if it was more compassionate than my cold hearted suggestion 😅 I’ve only recently returned to the forums after a hiatus and what I’m noticing with my advice and others is because we’re all at different stages of healing and recovery our different level of emotions and triggers are evident in the advice given. I’ve hit that blessed ‘meh’ feeling about the ex now, occasionally I get mad, often for someone else who has caught a serial cheater but I find my advice now is more "cold" than what it might have been say this time last year. I’m sorry if that has come across insensitive, please know it does come from a place of care & concern. You still care so you did as much as you could because of that, it didn’t cross a boundary of yours, as you said it was what you would have done for a neighbor. It was kind and in your comfort zone. Loved the description of the soup!

Like you I had the conflicting physical reactions too, it’s because he was your safe harbour for so long, so it feels natural to go to him to be protected from the pain, even though the pain is because of him. Sorry for being a bit of a drunk parrot about this, until I started the grey rock method and began the journey of detachment that inner conflict only got worse. You will eventually have to detach but I understand you’re not ready for that yet. The grey rock is honestly a better approach as it eases you into something you naturally don’t want to do as it appears unkind, but it’s for the better good for you. It’s better than waking up and having to go NC or worse wake up and be forced into NC by him. Next IC talk about these warring physical emotions and ask for techniques to help. It will be exhausting unless managed.

Moving away from that and onto happier topics. I’ve started dabbling in toy making if you’re wanting creative/craft inspiration. Simplicity has this beginner pattern of a giant sloth that hugs you, I’m working on two of those for the kids for Christmas. The kids get involved with the toy pattern hunt, mostly finding wacky patterns on Etsy or in retro Japanese toy pattern books, but we all have an occasional weekend afternoon out to different craft supply shops which is fun for all. I only have a basic old sewing machine, was never fantastic at using it but watching YouTube tutorials taught me what I needed to know to start and it’s fun. I’m hoping to see enough so next year I can donate some to goodwill for Christmas. Even though they physically can’t help with the sewing I make sure I do that at night so it doesn’t chew into our time, you should see the huge eyes when they wake up to a new jumbo plushie sitting at the breakfast table. It’s fun, it requires attention so you have no room to let your inner monologue rattle away and it’s rewarding.

I got into aquascaping too, more expensive than sewing a toy so I’ve only gone small but there was one vid by MD fish tanks on YouTube ’ricefish paddy fish tank’ and I thought ‘that looks both really fricking cool but also very meditative and tiny fish should be easier than goldfish’ so both kids got involved, going to fish shops, wanting me to buy the biggest tanks (they really want me to "rescue" a grocery store lobster which apparently is the thing to do) and again, like the other group activities, it’s an activity that takes everyone’s mind off negatives.

Like all activities, even the sporty ones (@trapped74 !!! it’s thrilling and fun right?! And how great does it feel to have them so excited that they talk/bond with you over it? It’s the best!) the rewards are on going for everyone involved. It’s not one off. It becomes ‘your thing’ and ‘our thing’ (with son) and that’s just lovely to have right? It’s just so wholesome and some may find it boring or unsexy but wholesome is healing and nurturing, so definitely try a bunch of things to see if something sticks for you then you and your son. I’m excited for you and your son, it’s innocent wholesome enriching goodness that you both need by the truck full right now. Fingers crossed you find something you both enjoy soon.

(LOL @vez, that curry comment made me laugh)

I love all these suggestions about activities. Until I finalise property matters on the 12th of Never, my budget only extends to buying useless cleaning products online and testing them out on the weekends- this month's action is a scraper that removes dog hair from the rug. Frankly the novelty is starting to wear off and waving a sword around sounds much more interesting and cathartic.

My escapist fantasy is to do one of the Camino walks with my son.

Amazon or instacart can delivery what he needs.