SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Your exWW tried to cage her cheating as taking a feminist stand, my WH tried to frame his cheating as "coming out as non-monogamous" as if it were a sexuality that he was born with. And even if it was either of those things (feminist stand or sexuality one is born with) in neither of those two cases does lying to loved ones play ANY sort of role. Sure, take a feminist stand against monogamy - but feminism does not include lying! That's not feminism, it's just cheating and then lying about it. Likewise sure, non-monogamy can be your born-this-way sexuality, but nothing about that makes you lie and sneak around. If your ex and mine were so justified, why wasn't this discussed openly?........And we were deprived of the ability to consent to the marriage we were in.

They're both full of shit.

I've often compared it to Tiger Woods coming out with the 'well I've been diagnosed as a sex-maniac, so therefore I kind of couldn't help it, see?' excuse for cheating on his wife with 40+ partners in an effort to validate his disgraceful behaviour. I think back to the MC session we had whereby she dropped the bomb on me (noting my in-laws were staying with us for 4 days) that 'she kind of thinks she needs to see other people in an emotional and romantic sense and I would like Hurthalo to be ok with this.' Unsurprisingly, she told me after the separation that she 'no longer thinks she's polyamorous' and she actually 'thanked me for being there for her journey in entertaining it and helping her ultimately find out'.

I informed her that at no point did I entertain it, and that I wasn't to be accredited for having any active role to play in her disgraceful affair(s). Again, a total re-invention of the marriage history and boundaries that were set, in order to help her sleep at night.

The breath-taking audacity of them. It sounds like your STBXH has constructed a similar Potemkin village regarding his own 'diagnosis'.

I'm coming around to this way of thinking, you're farther ahead in the process than I am - but mainly for me it's that I fear retaliation. So it's less about protecting his character and more about protecting myself and our son from any retribution when his ego gets stung. And also, until recently, because I felt sorry for him. I know that's weird after all he's done, but I'm not the one who lost my humanity. I still don't want to see the father of my child deprived of the only good people he seems to have access to (my family). I (or my family) might change on that. I'm becoming less sympathetic towards him by the day.

While I'm happy to move on with my life 9 months out, some small sense of justice demands to be served. She has deprived me of life with my precious daughters for 50% of the time, she's cost me ~$350,000 and added a decade to my mortgage, cost me early retirement accordingly, cost my girls the financial future we had planned for them, exposed me to potential sexual disease (thank god that was all clear), left me feeling near-suicidal as every facet of my life unravelled, and completely ruined any level of trust I had in regards to being hofficially abused by being gas-lit and habitually lied to for over 1.5 years. She has also broken up two marriages and impacted other children noting both APs were married, and suddenly weren't, after her affairs with them.

I was happy to live and let live noting I've met someone superior to her in every way, but why should she get to act this way and walk into the sunset with over a third of a million in the bank as reward for her infidelity, and holding hands with her new AP? Her conservative parents will likely not take kindly to knowing that her new love was also a willing architect in the destruction of their grandchildren's lives. And that's another relationship she's destroyed; I also had to mourn the loss of those in-laws as family noting they have to rally at least half-heartedly around their daughter, with whom I had a great relationship. The selfishness and second/third-order effects are gobsmacking.

Our wayward partners made these beds, they need to bloody sleep in them. And that's the thing Sigyn, they weren't born this way - their disgraceful behaviour over the courses of our respective marriages were made up of conscious decisions made every day for years on end.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 3:05 AM, Monday, April 24th]

It’s always so eerie reading your posts, Sigyn. It’s haunting and uncanny, as many of us have pointed out so many times. It feels like someone watched my inner life and the horrible path of discovery and realization that I’ve been on since discovery. Our WH’s are different in their actions and their modus, but when you describe your WH, his patterns, your own reactions over the years and how you handled life with him. . .it’s just plain . . .eerie. You just describe all of this and what you’re going through so well, and your powers of understanding and getting to these conclusions is exceptional. It took me a lot longer, but so many of your realizations and descriptions of your WH and his behavior are just EXACTLY similar to my WH. And so are your descriptions of how you adapted and appeased and made yourself smaller within your marriage.

I never thought of him as being controlling, because the way he did it was (in hindsight) so manipulative and passive-aggressive. He tends to see every conversation, interaction and experience as a competition he feels the need to 'win'. His day had to be harder, his job more important, his joke funnier, his opinion more weighty[. . .]I mean there was no interaction too inconsequential for him not to care about. If there was anything I had, did or achieved that was (to him) objectively better, he would passively punish me for it. Cut it down, degrade it "jokingly", make fun of it, try to attach it to something bad or negative, ignore it and never speak of it, give me the silent treatment, withdraw affection but with a smile on his face as if everything was fine ... in other words I was made to pay for anything he perceived as outdoing him. [. . .]any time I mentioned my work, my education, any achievement, my close relationship with my family - he would make it so uncomfortable for me that the next time I found myself almost mentioning something on the red list, I'd suck it back in. No more moles to whack.

So much this. He was so competitive and needy of being the most important, the focus. His job was ALWAYS bigger, more important, more difficult. Mine too was insecure about his educational level—in comparison to mine and just in general terms. And I downplayed the importance of education too because he made it clear that his fragile ego needed that. Even my hobbies were threatening. It’s a toss up who was more responsible for this since I was an active participant in propping his neediness. The price of not doing so was very high, for sure, but why I would tolerate making myself smaller for him when I don’t do that in other spaces and with other people is just beyond me.

It was probably because of this:

I thought WH had a lot of deep insecurity and I didn't, so I made myself live in a world comfortable for his insecurity. I rationalized it at the time as being similar to if WH had a physical disability and our house accommodated that - our house, our marriage would accommodate the person with the greater needs. But there were so many times it was so dehumanizing to me. I never once had the 'greater needs' and he always did. So not to be able to talk about my thoughts, my career, many of my problems - yeah it was literally dehumanizing. I played the role of the lesser human in what should have been a marriage of equals.

This is just such a perfect articulation of how I felt in my marriage. This part, at least, I did articulate pretty well for myself: He was weaker. He needed things that I didn’t to feel secure. I too treated him like he was disabled or a child. Like the person who was needier. But I also knew that it meant my needs could never be prioritized, and I did resent that at times, more and more over time.

He also was prone to blaming everything and everyone in the world for whatever went in a way that didn’t suit him. So if he did listen to some frustration that I had at work, his response was immediately to make it an adversarial thing rather than a problem-solving thing. The world is full of the injustice of not revolving around him and his wants entirely, so the only way that he could respond to my frustrations was to include me briefly in his bright center and rail at whoever he perceived to be the cause of me taking my eyes off of him.

Since our marriage was deteriorating over the long-years of his lying and cheating, I even told him once before discovery, that I wasn’t interested in living in an adversarial stance with the whole world the way he was and didn’t want our kids to feel that way either.

And yet, I still didn’t quite understand how completely I was his adversary too or how much he resented me. Somehow, that still floored me as I began to figure it out. Wayward behavior doesn’t allow them to really care about us or really act as our friends anymore. We truly are the adversary to beat when the game is keeping the truth of our own lives from us in order to indulge in whatever it is that they want to get away with. I’ve also felt that it must have made him feel very smug and superior that he could lie to me so easily—although I’m certain that what he really told himself was that he was just AMAZING at convincing (meaning lying) to me.

My WH worked off of a variation of your WH’s lying method: he told me once that the key to being a convincing liar and not getting busted was that your lie always had to contain a nugget of truth. What I understand now was that he could take the smallest nugget of truth and weave a convincing justification, rationale, and story almost instantly. What I also understand now is that he FIRST told that story to himself and bought his own bullshit more and more easily as he spiraled down the whirlpool.

When I finally realized that the reason I couldn’t get the truth out of him was that he had added so many layers of justification and bullshit that he literally no longer had a clue what the real truth was, I knew that we were lost. Because every fucking thing that he said was a mess of tiny bits of technically true info along with all of the layers of shit he had added. It became so effortless and automatic that he no longer had to consciously do it, his mind just took what he wanted the thing to be and spun it. He occasionally would look almost dazed when I pointed out how clear and ridiculous something he said was. I began to think of it as that weird moment when someone in a movie "snaps out of it" for a second and doesn’t recognize where they are. That’s what it was like when he had a brief moment of being confronted with reality. . .but he never stayed there. Give him 10 minutes alone and he was right back in his own woven world where I was the bad guy and he was the victim.

It is abuse. It is someone weaponizing their emotional needs. And I can see it ALL OVER now, looking back! I rationalized it for so long. I'm at this stage now where I'm so angry at him, not even just about the affairs but about his selfish stealing of all of the emotional energy in our marriage, his dehumanization of me, the way he arranged our entire marriage to meet his needs. I didn't consent to the marriage I was in. Literally everything that I did agree to was under false pretenses.

Again, THIS. SO much this. Someone weaponizing their emotional needs. That just his me so hard, Sigyn. I think about my WH’s need for control. His jealousy. His competitiveness. His diminishing of my interests and abilities. All of the prices WE pay for their insecurity and need. And the real killer is that IT DIDN’T WORK. None of what we did fixed it for them. None of what we did made them love us and protect us. None of making ourselves smaller made them appreciative and grateful. IT MADE THEM MORE RESENTFUL. I think that’s the part that is most crushing. Because I sacrificed so much of myself to try to make things good for him, and in the end, it just gave him permission to have no respect or regard for me at all.

It is most definitely abuse in so many different forms.

I spent 5 years post discovery having those horrible encounters with my WH that were just him still trying to WIN and come out on top. He actually thought he could bully me out of my own feelings about what he’d done. And I just couldn’t fathom that was what was happening because how could he possibly think that he should still come out on top with the magnitude of what we BOTH knew he had done to me and our kids and our family? How could he even think there was a win to be had? I didn’t yet understand so much of this, so again, you are at the head of this sad class, Sigyn. You are YEARS ahead of some of us.

As usual, I’ve gone on too long, so I won’t go into detail about the counseling of others except to say that my WH felt that he naturally drew people who wanted to seek his advice. Oddly, most of them were really messed up women who talked to him about their horrible relationships and disastrous lives. HE. ATE. THIS. UP. It made him feel superior on every front. I shudder to think about what "advice" he gave them because I’m sure most of it was him being smug and superior and giving them condescending pearls of wisdom. It fed his ego and also made him feel resentful that these women all looked up to him so much, while I obviously felt better than him (which was a complete transference of his own insecurities onto me since I didn’t feel that way at all—but you can BET that I sure do now).

And yes, you and HurtHalo and many, many others have had the opportunity to see behind the veil of the lies they tell themselves about their own victimhood and the inevitable rightness of their choices. You have nailed the problem so succinctly: being "naturally" polyamorous or non-monogamous or anything else does not require lying, deception and controlling of others lives. It’s why most of us say that, in the end, it wasn’t the details of the cheating as much as it was the endless lying that doomed any possibility of R.

I don’t know what to tell you about how long you’ll continue to analyze and come to new realizations about your M and your WH,Sigyn. Sometimes I think it will never stop for me, and I’m waaaaay out. I think we’re all different to some degree. I’m jealous of those who have been able to put it aside. I’m an analyst and researcher by nature. I tend to think, re-think, and over-think most things. So it’s not surprising to me that the biggest, most traumatic event in my emotional life would be difficult to process. I do think that our WHs being so unwilling to participate in helping us process what they’ve done plays into that as well.

I can say that you are doing amazing and very helpful work, not only for yourself, but for all of us, your reluctant sisters and brothers in all of this. This club sucks, but I have to say that the company is really excellent. We are among truly wise and amazing and resilient travelers.

I’m grateful for everyone on this thread, as always. Hugs of understanding, appreciation, and support, Sigyn.

[This message edited by NowWhat106 at 9:00 AM, Monday, April 24th]

I agree with NowWhat - some really helpful insights on your last post Sigyn that are helping me "get it" as well. It's so hard to explain/understand if you havent lived with one of these parasites.

As for polyamory, ye gods let a thousand blossoms bloom but I feel like I might fall within the definition of "wowser". When my ex said "We don't have to follow the rules" I couldnt get the locksmith to the house any faster. And the people he had been associating with - barf. There is no room dark enough for that to happen.

It is someone weaponizing their emotional needs.

Wow.

This really hits home

If you're driven by pathological envy and a compulsive need to feel superior everything is potentially a weapon. How do I beat thee ~ let me count the ways.

They don't need to win, as long as you lose. I couldn't work out why ex damaged our home (by "accidentally" flooding it twice within 2 weeks) he had used his money to renovate. Because I was happy, standing there in the kitchen talking to my kids, friends dropping over, having a glass of wine, chopping the vegetables. It was lovely, not living in a hovel for the first time in 25 years. We were normal people, and he hated it, sitting in the corner like a stunned mullet, seething. In his mind I'd won. Cue problem with the plumbing...

Pathetic ~ the lot of them.

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 10:37 PM, Monday, April 24th]

I've often compared it to Tiger Woods coming out with the 'well I've been diagnosed as a sex-maniac, so therefore I kind of couldn't help it, see?' excuse for cheating on his wife with 40+ partners in an effort to validate his disgraceful behaviour.

Thought #1, I am actually shocked my WH didn't claim sex addiction! It was I think the only prediction people made here that didn't come true! I guess cheating-is-my-sexuality sounded better to him in his own mind?

Thought #2 I cannot believe my relatively boring spouse had as many partners during our marriage as Tiger Woods. I think Tiger was lying by an order of magnitude, that's the only explanation.

Unsurprisingly, she told me after the separation that she 'no longer thinks she's polyamorous' and she actually 'thanked me for being there for her journey in entertaining it and helping her ultimately find out'.

Omg, that's ubelieveable! I hadn't read that update in your thread, I would be LIVID. She is really trying to say she thought she was poly while married to you, but then meets some other guy and suddenly is monogamous?? That's essentially blaming you! I suspect she'll find out she's in a shared relationship with her new partner shortly, and when they poly shoe is on the other foot she will very much hate it. So sorry! Ugh!

It’s a toss up who was more responsible for this since I was an active participant in propping his neediness. The price of not doing so was very high, for sure, but why I would tolerate making myself smaller for him when I don’t do that in other spaces and with other people is just beyond me.

Yes, this is something I'll have to explore in myself later, when I've got the emotional energy to question why I did this to myself, telling myself it was for my marriage, for him, for us. Because writing it out, it doesn't sound like me in any other relationship, past or present. And it was so harmful to me. And maybe it enabled him in his secret life as well. Maybe he read the condescension baked into our dynamic, that I felt he was insecure, needier, less able to be flexible than I am. I never said those words to him, but the dynamic is (in retrospect, to me) obvious. Maybe it was obvious to him. Maybe he benefitted from it, needed it, relied on it and also resented it and felt belittled by it, and then 'got back' at me for it on the sly. Or maybe his insecurity alone was enough to have him trying to even some invisible score.

I do know that I will never, ever do that again for any relationship including my future coparenting relationship with WH. I have to break that automatic habit. I'm still doing it by not telling my family most of the details, protecting him because I don't think he can handle life without a support system. I can't even begin to untangle the twisted roots of these instincts, they're so pervasive!

And the real killer is that IT DIDN’T WORK. None of what we did fixed it for them. None of what we did made them love us and protect us. None of making ourselves smaller made them appreciative and grateful. IT MADE THEM MORE RESENTFUL.

Omg this exactly. Exactly. I'm copying this to come back to it later, it needs to settle in my mind more because it's so hopelessly true.

I was reading the journal entries I made that coincided with what I now know is WH's Whistlesucker OW breaking up with him. WH was clearly going through something intensely emotional at the time and he'd said it had to do with a bad convo with his Mom.

In my journal I wrote that more than ever WH needs me to be the one to pretend on purpose, so he can pretend and tell himself it's real.

I didn't mean that in a massive way, just in a household/daily kind of way. Along the lines of avoiding conversations that make him feel small, that kind of thing. But more and more as I'm re-reading that sentence, I wonder how globally that was true in our marriage. Maybe so much more than I ever suspected.

And even with our entire marriage AND his OW and his sexworkers and his sex clubs and his online sex community were all conspiring to tell him he was a great man, he never stopped seething with insecurity and apparently resentment.

. He actually thought he could bully me out of my own feelings about what he’d done. And I just couldn’t fathom that was what was happening because how could he possibly think that he should still come out on top with the magnitude of what we BOTH knew he had done to me and our kids and our family? How could he even think there was a win to be had?

YES! But then the more I read about men like this, I realize that there is no inherent value in their words or actions EXCEPT FOR whether their words/actions put them in a power position. And if the answer is yes, then they call that a win, they came out on top. There is no distinction there between saving someone's life on the way home from work and getting away with sex outside the marriage. Both make them feel powerful, so both are examples of a win.

Currently, WH is on vacation for a week and has been heavily implying to all who will listen that he's on vacation with someone else. He doesn't realize that everyone who has heard this is horrified at the thought that he cheated, lied and was kicked out of his marital home - and rather than trying to work on himself and make amends, he's trying to brag about yet more cheating. It's not really a flex for a habitual cheater to cheat one more time, it's just more of the same pattern. But WH doesn't seem to see that through normal eyes. In his mind, he imagined I might have gone on vacation with another man (I didn't) and so now he'll get back at me by ... doing exactly what he's been doing for 17 years? But it seems that all that matters to him is his warped vision of being the one 'on top'. And he doesn't for a second think about any inherent value in the action he's trying to 'win' with.

Yes, this is something I'll have to explore in myself later, when I've got the emotional energy to question why I did this to myself, telling myself it was for my marriage, for him, for us. Because writing it out, it doesn't sound like me in any other relationship, past or present.

My response to this is likely premature for you…so just tuck it away until it’s more relevant.

I spent five years trying to fix a marriage that I didn’t even yet realize was broken. That was followed by 12 more years trying to fix a clearly broken marriage. Follow that with six more years trying to untangle the full scope of it all - which included the proverbial question of what was wrong with me that I had invested as much as I had. I’m not saying that self-exploration doesnt have its value.

What I am saying is that, after all that exploration, I came to one consensus: There wasn’t a damn thing wrong with me. In fact if there was anything wrong with me it was that I spent too much time not putting the issue squarely where it belonged. It was my good qualities that had actually allowed that. Was that something I was willing to change? Put simply - no. (And strangely enough that realization alone would be what better protected me in the future. When you know your self-worth - even the parts that make you vulnerable - then you naturally become more self protective. It rectifies itself organically.)

The harder part is simply accepting that some people are just so fucked up. We put way too much effort in trying to make that less simple than what it is.

There’s rich "princes" in Nigeria because manipulation works. It works based on our wounds, based on our own needs, and based on our inherent biology. (This shit literally rewires the brain!). The odds are stacked against us in that regard. The emails aren’t the hook…the relationship is the hook, the interaction. Set up house-keeping and have a kid - boy, oh boy, does it get complicated fast! We didn’t sign up for some abstract possibility located an ocean away - though plenty do. We dated, we made promises, we planned a life, and we made a commitment for better or for worse. Unlike the Nigerian prince, we met people that were willing to play the long game - and play it well. So well that they probably even fooled themselves for a period of time. But it wasn’t real - and it showed itself in time…time in which we bought a house and set up a nursery, saved for retirement. And yet somehow afterwards, we look back and self-flagellate because we didn’t know, didn’t see all the things we now see. Of course we didn’t! There were a whole lot of other factors involved in the equation by then. Our check had already been cashed.

You will find your way through this process. You don’t work it…it works you. And that’s ok. But this is just a piece of your life. You will move on and make all kinds of new memories, have new wonderful experiences, and this will become something that shapes you but doesn’t define you. I promise you, it WILL become distant, at times feeling like another lifetime. There will be answers you never get, things you will never understand. They won’t matter. You’ll think about them - but then you’ll shrug and go do something different. Believe it or not, there will come a day where your biggest regret is how much attention you ever gave it. That’s not to say you should be there now…it’s just another prediction from someone that’s a little further on this particular path. You will become who you are suppose to be as a result of this experience. And no matter how much many of us still bemoan the injustice of it all, there’s many of us that can still say there are things from it that have made us better. BETTER. I have a much better relationship with myself now…and that’s a trade I’d make over and over again. I like me now. Him? Phhww…who cares? I got me out of the whole transaction; turns out it was a pennies on the dollar trade.

Omg, that's unbelieveable! I hadn't read that update in your thread, I would be LIVID. She is really trying to say she thought she was poly while married to you, but then meets some other guy and suddenly is monogamous?? That's essentially blaming you! I suspect she'll find out she's in a shared relationship with her new partner shortly, and when they poly shoe is on the other foot she will very much hate it. So sorry! Ugh!

Oh it gets better than that Sigyn: one of the final arguments we had before we broke up was me questioning why she had sent a photo of her in a ball gown just before we left for a work Ball to the original (1st?) AP...who I thought at the time was 'just' a workmate. I didn't find out that he was an AP until two weeks later, but in the aftermath I discovered that it turned out he had broken up with her 3 months prior. Her sending him a photo must have been her lame attempt to 'woo' him back/remind him of what he was missing. The twist in this is that by this point she was already engaged in a second affair with a married man (her current boyfriend). So she has in essence already cheated on the second AP by reaching out to the first AP...while married to me.

You couldn't make this up.

I'm still doing it by not telling my family most of the details, protecting him because I don't think he can handle life without a support system. I can't even begin to untangle the twisted roots of these instincts, they're so pervasive!

I realised the other day that I am still doing this as well. The truth is, I suspect that like me, our default is that we'd actually prefer to be married to our WH/WW. I certainly do; I miss her terribly. But I am not missing the casual disrespect one little bit. I am still weighing up whether to blow all of this up, and whether to inform her current b/f about what he can expect going forward noting the above fact.

I was reading the journal entries I made that coincided with what I now know is WH's Whistlesucker OW breaking up with him. WH was clearly going through something intensely emotional at the time and he'd said it had to do with a bad convo with his Mom.

In my journal I wrote that more than ever WH needs me to be the one to pretend on purpose, so he can pretend and tell himself it's real.

THIS! I realised that my WW's tears in bed and apparent mental spiral started after she first slept with the AP while away for work. I realise now that my moves to support her and put my own mental concerns to the side in doing so only emboldened her to continue. I encouraged her to dive into her work and in doing so, she did more and more courses that required away-from-home travel. Guess who from her work went with her on a lot of those courses? I feel like an idiot in retrospect.

Currently, WH is on vacation for a week and has been heavily implying to all who will listen that he's on vacation with someone else. He doesn't realize that everyone who has heard this is horrified at the thought that he cheated, lied and was kicked out of his marital home - and rather than trying to work on himself and make amends, he's trying to brag about yet more cheating. It's not really a flex for a habitual cheater to cheat one more time, it's just more of the same pattern. But WH doesn't seem to see that through normal eyes. In his mind, he imagined I might have gone on vacation with another man (I didn't) and so now he'll get back at me by ... doing exactly what he's been doing for 17 years? But it seems that all that matters to him is his warped vision of being the one 'on top'. And he doesn't for a second think about any inherent value in the action he's trying to 'win' with.

The sheer sociopathy. Wow. He has MASSIVE problems.

You will become who you are suppose to be as a result of this experience. And no matter how much many of us still bemoan the injustice of it all, there’s many of us that can still say there are things from it that have made us better. BETTER. I have a much better relationship with myself now…and that’s a trade I’d make over and over again. I like me now. Him? Phhww…who cares? I got me out of the whole transaction; turns out it was a pennies on the dollar trade.

@truthsetmefree; this is an amazing statement. And so true!

Where’s the post where it stops being about a serial cheater and we focus on the betrayed spouse?

I’d like to see 37 pages focused on the betrayed’s healing and steps forward etc.

Where’s the post where it stops being about a serial cheater and we focus on the betrayed spouse?

I’d like to see 37 pages focused on the betrayed’s healing and steps forward etc.

Not trying to knock the importance of working on healing, but it's only been about eight months since Sigyn's d-day with some horrific trickle truths and discoveries along the way, so I think it makes sense that posts there are still a lot of posts discussing her WS's shocking behavior.

I know that during the first year, even with therapy + antidepressants + an IRL support, I was still dealing with obsessive/intrusive thoughts/shock of how could my WS do what he did, who was I married to, etc.

Respectfully (because it's very hard to read tone across the internet), there are some posters here years later, with the same serial cheater WS, that seem stuck in the same place. I don't think Sigyn is at risk of stagnating in her healing journey, considering that WS is out of the house, she's in therapy, etc.

Where’s the post where it stops being about a serial cheater and we focus on the betrayed spouse?

I’d like to see 37 pages focused on the betrayed’s healing and steps forward etc.

I don't have much time to post today but just want to say I get it, I do. Yet I do feel supported and hearing others talk about the same behaviors in their partners that I experienced within my marriage, and therefore in a sense focusing on the cheater's behavior as a way of demonstrating that disordered state of mind, has been in an odd way very healing for me. If other people with so much intelligence and wisdom and strength went through similar nightmares with eerily similar spouses, it makes me feel less stupidly oblivious in my own marriage nightmare. But I really appreciate the reminder that our own healing is more important than the behavior of the people who first sent us here.

Like everyone else, I have gotten so much from Sigyn's thread. She has been a beacon for me as she has graciously and wisely navigated through her betrayal. Through her insights (and many other contributors on here), I myself have gained the wherewithal to take the leap and file for divorce. This thread was like glasses and I have been handicapped with nearsightedness for so long.

This singular thread has served as a catalyst for me taking the next steps because I received so much insight and understanding from all of you and your own experiences. Thank you so much Sigyn et al, you have had such an impact on me and my kids lives.

Your post is amazing, BigMamma, and a testament to the power of SI. We all go at our own pace and have to follow our own paths. You’ve shared your struggles here and supported others, while you’ve done your own work and process. Whatever happens going forward, we all know that SI is here to support us. I hope you’ll update us and share this new part of your journey too. Hugs to you, BigMomma.

Everyone here is amazing for surviving what we’ve been through. I appreciate every one of you, even those whose perspective and experience is very different from my own. The strength and grace is astounding. The wisdom is humbling and hard won.

Personally, I can’t believe how quickly you are moving forward, Sigyn. I’ve shared many times that it took me soooo much longer to accept the reality of my life, my relationship, and the person that I’d married. I’m not sure that ever happens all in one brief moment (if it has happened to anyone, I’m truly jealous). I do think that a lot of us need, really NEED, to process and analyze and talk about their small and large aha moments of who and what their WS has done to them. It really is not a seamless, clean process to accept a reality so very different from the one we actually lived and knew as our real life. Sometimes, that’s just what needs to be talked through here with our support system. It’s not a linear path straight through and out of this; it’s sometimes one small step forward, three big steps back for awhile.

So I’m here for whatever Sigyn—or anyone else—needs in their threads. It might be something different on different days. We’ve all been on the rollercoaster. We all know that some days we feel like we’re focused on the future and on moving on, and some days, we’re plunged right back into the nightmare by a trigger or a new revelation or an interaction with our WS or a memory that hits us out of the blue. That can happen WAAAAAY out.

Sigyn, you’re not way out. You’re still discovering and realizing new difficult truths moment to moment. You get to do this whatever way you choose to, and you’ve shown yourself more than able to let us know when you need us to back off or change course. This is your thread. You get to take what you need and leave the rest. You get to come on tomorrow if you want and tell us that today you just want to talk about the best travel destinations or the safest ways to dispose of a body (kidding ). And as you know, you’ll get plenty of support and input for any of it. So many have commented what a gold mine this particular thread is.

Marveling and obsessing (a little) over the complete fuckedupedness of your WH is normal as is feeling comfort in knowing that he is not a unique kind of evil gift that only you were unfortunate enough to connect with in the universe. And when you don’t need that (for a day or a month or forever), I know you’ll let us know. I know that I still have moments where I just need to hear that I am not alone in all this.

So, I’m on to supporting Sigyn and each other—I hope I haven’t thread-jacked. This really is the greatest group that no one ever, EVER wants to join. Hugs of support and strength to you all.

I thought our 37 pages were absolutely legendary, just like Sigyn. But, ya know, each to their own.

And BigMammaJamma go you!

Edit: I just thought of a tip from one of the 5000 Sam Vaknin videos I watched on moving forward. To create new pathways in your brain, every time you think about ex, punish yourself ~ vaknin recommends doing a hundred push ups or giving away 50 dollars. I tried it once for a day and only had a few loose coins in the wallet by the end of it, and really sore arms. I dont have any other advice.

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 10:17 AM, Friday, April 28th]

There are no deadlines when it comes to grief and discovering strength after a betrayal of this magnitude. It’s a constantly evolving process. I think it’s important that OP needs to make sense of the betrayal and the WS before she can focus on healing. It is an important aspect of moving on and healing might be happening in parallel.

I think Tiger was lying by an order of magnitude, that's the only explanation.

😏

Oh yes, if you’re caught, may as well big yourself up as an epic womaniser to try and scrape some points, sunk cost n’all.

Where’s the post where it stops being about a serial cheater and we focus on the betrayed spouse?

I’d like to see 37 pages focused on the betrayed’s healing and steps forward etc.

While there is a lot about the cheater in this thread, there is much, much more about humanity, grief, self-reflection, and taking baby steps forward, even when you’re stumbling.

Sigyn has done a beautiful job of narrating her process of grief and acceptance— sometimes 2 steps forward one step back, which is how it is for all of us. She has addressed her own feelings, discussed her therapy and it’s progress, talked about WS moving out, discussed the impact on her child, pushed forward with the legal process, etc etc.

^ That IS the healing and steps forward. It’s the grief and the realizations and then the slow but steady action steps as the heart catches up to the brain. This process is long and messy, whether you D or R. I think this post is a GREAT example of how raw and hard this all is, and how long it does take in real time to manage this level of betrayal.

As for all the talk about the WS, for many of us this is also a large part of the process. We want to make sense of this behavior, we want to know where we missed the cues, we want to figure out the WS’s "whys" for them when they are unable to do it themselves. For many of us, this is an important step to healing. Once we put together enough pieces of the puzzle, we can integrate that information into our brain and body and only then can we start to let it go. For you it may be too much WA talk, but for lots of BS this kind of analysis can be super helpful, and necessary.

Sigyn, as someone who’s been lurking for awhile on your thread, I just want to say how helpful I believe this thread is to so many, and how glad I am that you’ve also benefited from the collective SI knowledge. Wishing you the best.

I myself have gained the wherewithal to take the leap and file for divorce.

@BigMamma huge hugs to you!! It's the hardest decision to make alone in a marriage of two people. I am so humbled at the sheer amount of wisdom and support and togetherness from everyone here, including you. I didn't want to say anything before it happened last week but I also just filed for divorce, WH now knows, so please keep posting - maybe we can support each other? I'm really overwhelmed knowing so many others and such good people are together in this.

after all that exploration, I came to one consensus: There wasn’t a damn thing wrong with me. In fact if there was anything wrong with me it was that I spent too much time not putting the issue squarely where it belonged. It was my good qualities that had actually allowed that. Was that something I was willing to change? Put simply - no. (And strangely enough that realization alone would be what better protected me in the future. When you know your self-worth - even the parts that make you vulnerable - then you naturally become more self protective. It rectifies itself organically.)

So many thoughts about this. I think I'm also going to have to go through my own path of exploration and I hope so much to arrive at the point you have. I want to see the willingness to compromise and to let my loved ones be who they are, even if some of their qualities are hard to live with, as a positive. But for that I would have to believe that there are people who would blossom and grow from it, not take advantage and revel in the worst of themselves. But what you wrote is equally true - would I want to change? Of course not. I know that when I love my friends, my son and my siblings and other family with an open mind and whole heart, they do the same for me. I don't want to live in another world where I withhold to preserve my vulnerability. But surely there's a second path where I'm equally open but also have higher standards, or better intuition, or uphold more personal boundaries. I don't know.

I’ve shared many times that it took me soooo much longer to accept the reality of my life, my relationship, and the person that I’d married.

I don't know where I'd be today if I hadn't found out how extensive his second life was and I'm still sure that I don't even know everything about it. The sheer volume of sex workers alone, the long term 'girlfriends', the fact that he has never been faithful, the discovery that he belongs to fetish sex groups that meet in person - the combined weight of all of that makes it impossible for me to hide from. That was the polar opposite of the man I loved. I'm still grieving for my best friend so much, the husband I had in my mind and heart before July 2022. I feel like he died. That man hasn't even resurfaced inside him since then, not to apologize, or hold me, or explain his thoughts and feelings. If he had, I think I would have tried to stay and put the pieces back together. In some moments I'm almost grateful he didn't revert to my familiar partner. But that same thought breaks my heart. I just know that I have to sever the tie to the marriage, if not the man. It was fake, a fraud, and it's the fake marriage I need to be rid of. I can't see past it. Anything that comes after that will be whatever it is. I don't even feel like I can deal with the loss of my husband while I'm still bound up in the false marriage. I don't know if that makes sense. I don't know if I've accepted who WH is, or if I've just accepted that the marriage is a lie and I need to get my head above the sea of lies to be able to breathe and process everything else.

But surely there's a second path where I'm equally open but also have higher standards, or better intuition, or uphold more personal boundaries.

Yes! It’s the difference between self-protection that comes from a perspective that the world is a "cold and cruel place" (ie, eat or be eaten) VS genuinely recognizing you own self-worth and moving toward experiences and people that recognize, appreciate, and even call you toward more of your wholeness. It’s not the goal but the by-product.

Where so many of us later struggle is in reconciling with ourselves - what we expected, allowed, tolerated…and especially the component of how much smaller we became in our primary relationship. It’s not easy work. (It’s hard when you fully recognize how much you didn’t trust yourself!)

But you get there…and that’s the door that’s opening for you now. Once you do, all the worries, strategies, protective stances naturally fall away - because you aren’t looking for protection. You are looking for real connection - and that can’t come from just avoiding vulnerability.

What were you looking for in your primary relationship? Did you actually have it - or were you continually trying to create it? (This is a much deeper question than can easily be answered on the surface. )

This is what you stop trying to do once you really know your own self-worth…the creating part. You instead seek out the things that give you that connection easily, consistently - likely like those other relationships you mentioned.

This is the good stuff from the experience. This is how you become not just healed…but improved, better. And one of the most horrible experiences actually becomes one of the most beneficial. ❤️

I'm still grieving for my best friend so much, the husband I had in my mind and heart before July 2022. I feel like he died. That man hasn't even resurfaced inside him since then, not to apologize, or hold me, or explain his thoughts and feelings. If he had, I think I would have tried to stay and put the pieces back together. In some moments I'm almost grateful he didn't revert to my familiar partner. But that same thought breaks my heart. I just know that I have to sever the tie to the marriage, if not the man. It was fake, a fraud, and it's the fake marriage I need to be rid of. I can't see past it. Anything that comes after that will be whatever it is. I don't even feel like I can deal with the loss of my husband while I'm still bound up in the false marriage. I don't know if that makes sense. I don't know if I've accepted who WH is, or if I've just accepted that the marriage is a lie and I need to get my head above the sea of lies to be able to breathe and process everything else.

Replace 'husband' with 'wife', keep the exact same dates, and this is where I am at exactly. I think I am at the point where the cheating doesn't even anger me, it's the AUDACITY of it that does. My ex-WW and I got along like a house on fire, it was a house full of laughter and in-jokes. And yet in the face of their blatant betrayal, it leaves us questioning whether any portion of the marriage was actually real at all, or whether we actually ever were allowed into the secured cloisters of our partner's psyche at any point of our respective marriages?

In my marriage, my ex-WW felt entitled to having affairs because I was 'emotionally unavailable', whatever that means. After having three affairs with other married men over 10 years (and the more I think about it, some of her interactions with other men while we were courting/engaged seem suspect in retrospect), I doubt she herself was ever emotionally available to anyone outside of a cursory hedonistic fashion? I'd suggest your WH sounds the same.

I'm glad to hear you have filed. I get to file in July (we have to wait 12m here in Australia). Dumb question though, has your WH reacted to this at all, or has he accepted this reality?

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 2:26 AM, Tuesday, May 2nd]