SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You are not pathetic. You are married to someone who is mentally unwell. You are loyal and have tried to be patient and understanding. You just have to get to a point where you can see it’s enabling him by being a known soft place to fall. Likely loosing that will be his rock bottom. I can’t promise, but it will help you to detach from his crazy which is needed.

You are an awesome woman, spouse, and mom. He is preying in your kindness in some ways because he is in active addiction. He knows if it all falls apart there you are. He needs to feel that is gone. It may not change anything so you must believe in what you are doing for your own sake.

There are lots of great posts and replies that talk about how it's not about the AP, the affair is a fantasy, and the WS may not even really know the AP in a true, authentic way.

I'm struggling because my WH was friends and then close friends with the AP for 15 years before the A started. So he knew her well, and knew her well long before the affair. It's hard for me to think that the A wasn't about her - it was entirely about her - or that WH got swept up in some crazy delusion about a woman he barely knew.

If you are a WS who had an affair with someone who'd previously been a long-time friend, how should I think about this? It feels so much more painful know that he wasn't delusional but was very consciously choosing her and planning to leave me for.

hikingout~ You seem to have a way to speak wisdom and honesty without making me feel stupid & in a way not even trashing my WS. Thank you so much. I have come back on this week multiple times just to read your two post.

I am glad if it helps. You deserve happiness. I will try and watch for your future posts in the forum.

Questions for WS:

Did you use protection with your AP when you had sex? How soon after you first had infidelity sex, did you then have sex with your unsuspecting BS? Did you get a STD test? Did you protect yourself, your BS, and your unborn child from STDs?

Did you have different kinds of sex with your AP, that you had with your BS? If yes, why did you not offer or ask your BS for this kind of sex - before or ever? And, if you ever did offer or ask for this kind of sex - were you still just lusting for your AP? Did your disappointment with your BS sexually drive you to look for this kind of sex elsewhere? Your answers are most appreciated.

[This message edited by icangetpastthis at 12:09 PM, Tuesday, February 4th]

Questions for WS:

Did you use protection with your AP when you had sex? How soon after you first had infidelity sex, did you then have sex with your unsuspecting BS? Did you get a STD test? Did you protect yourself, your BS, and your unborn child from STDs?

In my reading here I think contraceptives are rarely used in an affair. I did use them, my husband did not in his. I would have been in a Fertile time in my cycle in the timing of the physical side of my affair. My husband has a vasectomy. We did std testing both times. I think when people have an affair they feel in invincible to living in escapism. They simply disregard all consequences to move forward.

Did you have different kinds of sex with your AP, that you had with your BS? If yes, why did you not offer or ask your BS for this kind of sex - before or ever? And, if you ever did offer or ask for this kind of sex - were you still just lusting for your AP? Did your disappointment with your BS sexually drive you to look for this kind of sex elsewhere? Your answers are most appreciated.

No, not different types of sex in either case for either of us.

I felt so disgusted with myself after the affair that I never lusted after the ap or fantasized about the ap. I did however miss the ap at first. I was used to talking to him constantly so it was a bit of a transition. In time I could see I missed the feelings the ap gave me not the ap himself. I realized we never really knew each other at all.

For me I wasn’t searching for sex. I wasn’t really unhappy with our sex life. It was all emotionally driven I wanted to feel cherished. I wanted to feel younger, sexier, more interesting.all of these things were just holes in my self esteem I was looking to fill with a person instead of figuring out what I wasn’t giving myself in my real life.

I think men especially think the only way they would cheat would be for more or better sex, yet those very men don’t cheat for those things. Very rarely in what I have read here is that enough motivation. Affairs are most often more about external validation or trying to cover up depression with the excitement. They are often attention seeking and self adulation.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:32 PM, Tuesday, February 4th]

For female WS - if you stopped intimacy with your BS during the affair (while continuing to have sex with AP) - what was that all about in your mind and heart - and if reconciled, how did you and BS overcome that?

Hi Jim-

We did not stop having sex but the frequency/quality was diminished.

I think genders often have things one is often more good at than the other. It’s scientifically proven women are great at multi-tasking. And I think what a lot of women are bad at is compartmentalization of feelings in the affair. That part is my own speculation based on reading here for so many years but of course I do not think that over generalization is true in every case.

I think if your wife ceased intimacy or intimacy declined significantly, it’s because she was deeply involved with the emotional aspects of the affair. This was true for me. It’s not something silly like I didn’t want to cheat on the AP. It’s more emotional engagement and desire for me are deeply connected.

So for me, and maybe your wife- you should definitely ask her if you haven’t- the emotional investment in one relationship over the other dictates where the desire went.

And honestly this has nothing to do with sexual prowess of the ap. It has to do with where the emotional investment was. The emotional stuff started before the physical and so that drop off happened before I even had any of that knowledge.

I cheated in part seeking for emotional connection/intimacy. However, the reason I didn’t have it is because I didn’t know that I had been putting up obstacles from it. In essence, the thing I wanted most I didn’t know how to foster. I wanted to be romanced, but my picture of that was him romancing me. The reality is romance comes from being your authentic self with someone, being vulnerable with them, making them a safe space for you.

The ap wasn’t that either. He wasn’t safe by any stretch of the imagination. He was emotionally unavailable same as me. We didn’t foster a connection, we played out that immature version of romance that I had in my head. I was very stupid not to see my husband, the one who helped me when I was sick, watched me grow and give birth to our child, worked tirelessly for me and our family, loved me on my bad days, etc.

But the crux of my answer is I am unable to be so emotionally invested in two people at once. Some people are good at that. I think females are worse at compartmentalization of emotion. And I tend to think more females cheat for emotional stuff than sex, but of course that is not a rule for all.

I think what made my husband overcome that is how our intimacy is now. How I show him true desire. And also how I tell him when I feel like we are letting our emotional connection slip and need to get out and do some things together or sit and talk a bit more or maybe that I need more affection through the day. Everything in a marriage is connected to the other parts and I think he now knows that we can’t ignore each other and expect to have carefree sex. He sees the results of emotional investment and it’s clearer to him that I work differently than he does.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:19 PM, Tuesday, February 4th]

WS only.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:27 PM, Thursday, February 6th]

Former people persons post may not get to stay due to only ws being allowed to respond here but the explanation of serial mongamy due to biology needs is probably the part of evolution to why I think females tend to invest in one person at a time. Not all of us, but a big portion. I said we were crummy at it and the explanation given by FPP seems to explain the origin and that seems very plausible to me.

If you read here long enough men are often the cake eaters of the cheating world while women tend to be more often exit affairs. Many choose in the end not to exit but often they are the party more emotionally involved. I have seen some men come and be more emotionally invested and some women to be more about the sex but they are much more rare in numbers on both sides

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:12 PM, Tuesday, February 4th]

BS questions for WSes and WS response only.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:37 PM, Thursday, February 6th]

Hiking out:

I think if your wife ceased intimacy or intimacy declined significantly, it’s because she was deeply involved with the emotional aspects of the affair. This was true for me. It’s not something silly like I didn’t want to cheat on the AP. It’s more emotional engagement and desire for me are deeply connected.

So for me, and maybe your wife- you should definitely ask her if you haven’t- the emotional investment in one relationship over the other dictates where the desire went.

And honestly this has nothing to do with sexual prowess of the ap. It has to do with where the emotional investment was. The emotional stuff started before the physical and so that drop off happened before I even had any of that knowledge.

I appreciate the honesty and transparency in your posts. This above makes sense to me. And it became clearly she was very emotionally entangled/invested in OM. It’s something I hope to delve into more with her in the near future but the insights will be useful in guiding our discussions and help me to not just jump to certain conclusions.

That makes complete sense. I bounce things here sometimes before talking to my h, especially the early days.

One thing to know about AP’s though, it doesn’t matter how you perceive them, they are never better than the spouse. It wasn’t that he was as better, it was he was pretend. We project what we want to see. The emotions are all based on escapism and fantasy. I was emotionally invested in my affair because I liked how the affair feelings made me feel. I could pick virtually anyone to have an affair with and it would have been more about that than the man.

But it’s all dopamine and adrenaline.

Also a lot of times we are using them to make ourselves feel better. For me, I didn’t feel worthy of my husband. The AP seemed complicated like me (read that as we both liked chaos) he felt in my level. This, mind you was a philandering serial cheater who was 20 years older than me. The only thing he had was a repertoire of how to talk to women to get what he wanted.

Not all that glitters is gold.

Question to those who cheated…

Saw a movie called Into the Wild about a post-college boy who goes off the grid to Alaska. Over the course of the movie it becomes clear he found out his parents did not meet in college as he was told, rather his mother was his father’s mistress and they broke up his first marriage where he abandoned his son. So this post-college kid is devastated, feels his life was a lie.

It triggered me because when my dad left our family for 1 month to move in with his AP when I was 13 I felt he made our whole lives and family a lie. It felt like it tore the fabric of my life and nothing ever made sense again. It led to on an off thoughts I might be better off not alive that took me years to overcome. It was also something my grandfather had done (leaving my grandmother and marrying his AP)

I went on to have my own happy family with 3 little kids until my husband cheated on me. It has been brutally difficult for me to put this into perspective in any kind of healthy way.

So the story I tell myself about what my dad did —- and this is what I think really cracks open my heart — is that we did not matter to my dad. After all those years of telling the kids how special family holidays were, and how important family dinners were, and how lucky we were in our family, it turned out he didn’t care about our family at all. Eventually, my father did move home and my parents stayed together.

But my question for those who cheated is how come your family wasn’t more important than the cheating? How do I make that make sense? I can understand making a mistake, or a one night stand, but he moved out for a month. He must have planned to start a life away from us. All people who cheat seem to be willing to accept that there is at least a chance they will lose their family (& kids). As one of those kids why didn’t we matter more?

I can't draw a line between my cheating and a lack of love for my family. It's not that any more than I can draw a line between my father's drunken abuse and his love for me. My affair, as most affairs, wasn't about my family at all, but something lacking in myself. My marriage was pretty lousy as my wife was also an abuser. More along the lines of manic episodes brought on by stressful situations (like holidays, weddings). Her abuse had nothing to do with her love for me either, it was her issue.

I think we tend to equate one issue and ignore others. For me, 16 yrs out and reconciled, I think of my body of work as a husband/father more than just the affair. I do the same with my wife's abusiveness. My wife is a wonderful, sweet and giving person who had a horrible side to her personality. We had to solve both of these issues to save our marriage.

I worked a lot to take care of my family, provide a lifestyle that I could be proud of. I also was there for my kids almost every day, always for key moments. It was a ton of effort, but I did it. When my wife had manic episodes, I was the balance. I remember holding my daughter crying when her mother left, she was gone a week with depression. I had always been the rock for my family. My daughter told me, a couple years ago, that I was the only person who was there for her every time she needed me. I was and still am even though the need is not what it used to be since she will be married soon. I did and do the same for my son. For both, I made their key events, coached softball and baseball for each, encouraged them to chase their passions.

I also was broken but didn't realize it. The abuse from my father and my wife made me feel insufficient as a person and husband. It's what abuse does. I never addressed it. Since our sex life was in the dumper, I told myself to have an affair. Something selfish but only I would know. What I didn't know, was sex wasn't what I was after. I was after external validation. My need for validation transcended my desire to be a good father and husband. I needed that fix. It really had nothing to do with the love I felt for my family. It was due to the lack of love for myself. After a month in the affair, I couldn't take it anymore. I was miserable that I needed this validation, couldn't stop the affair and blamed my wife. While she had plenty to be blamed for, my affair was not one of them. It was all on me.

I finally blew up the marriage and told my wife I was leaving her. We decided to reconcile, but my daughter was really pissed at me. My son was more understanding due to the abuse, but he didn't approve. I never thought I would hurt my daughter or son with my actions, but I did. That is a low point in my life. I have recovered well with them, but it was never about them. It was about me and my need for validation. It was no different than a drug addict, love doesn't enter into it. Once I realized how broken I was, I got counseling and after a year of work, solved it. I learned a lot about myself in counseling. I changed my thought processes, my self image and found balance. I still almost left my wife 3 yrs later due to the abuse as it never stopped. I gave her an ultimatum to either get help or divorce. She sought help and also changed her thought processes. But, I never once thought that seeking another affair was anything but a bad, even repulsive idea. I had to either fix our issue or leave, those were my only choices because I no longer needed external validation.

My daughter and son do not believe I ever stopped loving them, only I went through a very selfish period. My daughter, against my stated wishes, bought me a new car in 2021 for Christmas. She even told my wife that she was prepared for me to not talk to her for a long time because it was something she wanted to do. It was a kind and financially reckless action, and I drove it for 2 yrs. I bought a truck, she ended up needing a car so I was able to convince her to take it and use it. I told her it would be my privilege if she would accept it back and use it. I told her it was the single, nicest thing, anyone has ever done for me. I still tear up thinking of what a wonderful gesture it was.

I hope this helps you maybe with a different perspective. My wife and I have a very loving relationship, now at 44 yrs married. The affair is a dark period now, nothing more. Today, my wife is out with 2 girl friends on a short trip they planned a few weeks ago. I spent last evening prepping the car (wash, vacuum, clean the interior, fill with gas) so she could go. She didn't ask, I volunteered. She deserves to be treated like a queen. After all that has occurred, we both love each other more than anything.

I hope your husband does the work to make himself safe as a partner. I found counseling brought me inner peace, finally. Either way you decide to leave infidelity, reconciliaton or divorce, I wish you resolution which will bring you peace in such a horrible time.

NWA

But my question for those who cheated is how come your family wasn’t more important than the cheating?

I think the answer in this could vary greatly for a ws.

For me, I cheated because I was miserable. I was going through emotional exhaustion/midlife crisis. I read a statement by a highly renown affair author that affairs are sometimes had by people not ready to commit suicide.

That rings true for me. I was so unhappy I was numb. I didn’t care about myself. When you get to that state you numb everything because we don’t get to pick and choose. I didn’t care about myself, and though I still actively played the role of wife and mother I felt very disconnected from all of them. I felt like I was there to be a servant.

Ws have very skewed perceptions. There is a level of selfishness always present that leads to entitlement. "What they don’t know won’t hurt them" was one of my things as well as "this is helping my depression and I can be better for them". But the depression wasn’t gone it was just masked by the dopamine and adrenaline.

NWA: thank you for your long thoughtful response. I reread my question and found it so very ungenerous. I think I am still a bit of a hurt person hurting others. The repetitiveness through three generations seem to throw me off and I can become so very black and white. Your words were very very helpful. I know I will reread them in the future because these thoughts do not seem to stay gone. I am glad your daughter has been able to see the totality of your contribution. I wish I had been capable of that wisdom. I had long forgiven my father and we were very closed for like 25 years. But, when my husband cheated I turned my anger against my father. I am not proud to say I really turned away from him in the last 2 years of his life. Thank you so very much for taking the time to respond.

HO: This part you wrote " I was so unhappy I was numb. I didn’t care about myself. When you get to that state you numb everything because we don’t get to pick and choose. I didn’t care about myself, and though I still actively played the role of wife and mother I felt very disconnected from all of them. I felt like I was there to be a servant." is verbatim what my husband has described. I see so much of him in the things you write and it has helped me connect with him around healing and better understand why he made the choices he did.

I guess I have been more forgiving of my husband than my dad. I had too much to lose in my marriage with 3 kids and I needed to direct my anger somewhere. We all make so many mistakes in dealing with our loved ones. It is sad that those who cheat are treated with such lack of compassion. I do it myself when I am hurting…I hope I can stop making that mistake.

We can not expect a traumatized person to be compassionate towards an act that traumatized them. There is nothing wrong with anything you said or feel in your posts. These are normal responses. You were not nasty or putting anyone down, you are just seeking to understand and that’s a good thing if we can help you with that! Understanding is not the same as condoning. While I understand my own behaviors and path, I do not condone it.

Hikingout

For me, I cheated because I was miserable. I was going through emotional exhaustion/midlife crisis. I read a statement by a highly renown affair author that affairs are sometimes had by people not ready to commit suicide.

That rings true for me. I was so unhappy I was numb. I didn’t care about myself. When you get to that state you numb everything because we don’t get to pick and choose. I didn’t care about myself, and though I still actively played the role of wife and mother I felt very disconnected from all of them. I felt like I was there to be a servant.

How much of this would you attribute to wanting or kinda expecting your husband to "rescue" you with validation?

It seems like (and correct me if I'm wrong) you felt like you were not acknowledged in a way that you felt you should. At the time did you tell yourself that because of this you "deserved" to have your validation and "feel goods"?

How much of this would you attribute to wanting or kinda expecting your husband to "rescue" you with validation?

Good question. I don’t have a great answer because it is a little complicated.

I don’t think I knew I wasn’t getting validation I needed from my husband. Like I didn’t think about it like that at the time. I did feel like he didn’t love me the way I wanted during this very specific period of time when he was trying to build his business but I couldn’t have given you a description of what that would have looked like, nor can I claim I would have been in a place I would have been able to see it.

I don’t feel I had an affair because my husband didn’t give me validation. I had an affair in a mindset more of being in a depression, feeling isolated, and most days being constant motion and exertion for me. As I have mentioned I worked a big job, I had a lot of responsibilities at home, I didn’t make time to evaluate anything, I just kept plugging along.

I wanted him to rescue me from my schedule or to notice this was taking a toll on me and for him to pitch in. I was being a partner by helping him with his business when I wasn’t cooking, taking care of our kids needs, working 50+ hours a week, and running every aspect of our household. He wasn’t reciprocating but I dont think I ever asked him constructively.

My mindset was I was tired of taking care of everything.

The validation part came in with the affair. I was on a business trip. We finished working every day at 3:30 and had group social events in the evenings. I went to shows and ate nice dinners, drank alcohol, and enjoyed myself. The Ap flirting with me was just a fun thing at first. But by the time we were going home I wasn’t ready for the party to end. He seemed to notice many things about me, asked me a lot of questions, etc and that’s why I falsely felt seen.

Have you ever not realized you were hungry but then you smelled food or was given a plate and suddenly you realized all at once you were hungry? That’s sort of how that was.

Though do not take that as my husband made me hungry. I made myself hungry by not feeding my wants, needs, etc. I didn’t even take time to recognize them. I didn’t do things to make myself happy. I didn’t evaluate what was going on and ask for what I want.

I can look back and tell you my husband was emotionally neglectful and that’s true in hindsight. But he was building something for our future the bigger part is I was neglectful of myself. I think prior to this time I got a lot of emotional needs met through girlfriends, but I didn’t seem to have time for them then. So, At the time everything really just felt like a jumbled up mess with very little clarity.

t seems like (and correct me if I'm wrong) you felt like you were not acknowledged in a way that you felt you should. At the time did you tell yourself that because of this you "deserved" to have your validation and "feel goods"?

Yes. I think entitlement is almost always there at the start of an affair. I have yet to come across a ws who said they didn’t feel some entitlement they used as a justification. I felt like I did everything everyone wanted me to do, and this was something I needed or wanted.

Boy was that dumb!!! So dumb!!! If I really evaluated what I really wanted the affair would never have happened because it didn’t give me what I wanted either it gave me a whole lot more of what I didn’t want.

It awakened my hunger to feel like someone was interested in me and what I thought, wanted, or needed. (Which isn’t true he was interested in someone to have sex with- and gave me a lot of indications that was the case which I ignored) I didn’t feel that hunger and go out and find it. The trip itself awakened my hunger to have more time and happiness for myself, but I used that time to conduct an affair instead of something that truly would have been nourishing.

My husband/marriage was a fine steakhouse and I settled for a burger at a gas station that comes prepackaged and you have to heat up in the microwave.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:17 PM, Wednesday, March 12th]