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I’m struggling.

You guys have helped me so many times over the past couple of years and I’m extremely grateful.

I’m about to enter a period of "this time two years ago". I remember feeling the same when it happened last year, when I entered the "this time last year" period. But this year it feels different. Shouldn’t this be getting easier by now? If I’m honest, things have got better. But the sting is still there. The thoughts and feelings are still present. But I manage them better.

But things have changed. Am I mad? Has it really changed or am I looking at things differently? Am I asking for too much? Am I wanting too much to fast? I have I self-destructed and wrecked any sort of chance of fixing my marriage.

I keep thinking, I didn’t cause this. I didn’t ask for this and I didn’t want to be here. Just like many of you I hate where I have ended up.

I still don’t believe that I have the full story from my wife. I still believe that the truth is the version that I believe. Not what she wants me to believe. But I won’t bore you, as you have heard me drone on about this to many times in the past.

But what I would like to ask is, did your WH or WW change 2 years into the process? Where you still arguing? Did you want more than they were able to give? Or was it a case of no matter how hard they tried, it may still not be enough. It may never be enough.

My wife really tries to help me through this. She will check in on me daily. She will say she loves me multiple times per day. She is always where she says she is and she is loving and caring. BUT…. When we argue and the affair is brought up, which it still is, at times. May be once every 3 weeks or so things turn nasty.

In the middle of a bad argument, she at times threatens me and says that she will leave as I clearly can’t get over this or maybe I should leave. She has said that I need to get over it. It happened a long time ago and that I’m acting like a child. She says I’m selfish and only think about myself.

But then when the argument has blown over and we are talking civil, she will say she is sorry and she didn’t mean it. She said that she gets angry too. But she doesn’t mean what she says.

Did you have these issues? I suppose in my head, because she cheated, maybe I think that I can say whatever I want and she has to take it. She should take it because she cheated. Bare in mind I’m not being nasty in the way of name calling, but more in the way of stating facts. I shouldn’t keep bring these things up every time things get hard, but as I said at the start, I’m struggling. Still even now.

Did you wayward continue to do everything they could to make you heal or was there times when they would retaliate and not be the perfect wayward that you wish and believed they should now be. Because I suppose at the end of the day just because she cheated doesn’t mean she won’t get angry

May be the problem is now me. May be I'm not letting us heal.

I just don't know whats real anymore. Is she genuine? May be she is. But may be im the one thats in the end will be the one that destroys what we had.

But what I would like to ask is, did your WH or WW change 2 years into the process?

Two years in? No, my wife hadn't changed at all. She was still in her world of shame, still making excuses and still pretending she cared about the relationship. She wasn't truly putting an ounce of work into herself, though she kept claiming that she "had changed on the inside" even if I "couldn't see it on the outside".

It wasn't until about 2 1/2 years after that when she really exhibited a change. It took an MC who didn't put up with any of her crap, her excuses, nothing, to get her to ACTUALLY change.

You haven't wrecked anything. She is the one who tossed in the grenade and has left.you picking up the pieces, wondering why you can't rebuild it faster.

At year 2, I had almost 100% disengaged. I was ready to throw in the towel. There were no more arguments because I simply disengaged. We talked about kids & finances. That was it. There were no "date nights". There were no "let's talk about" times. There was nothing. If it didn't involve a kid activity or something about spending money, there was no time given. I stopped hurting myself by trying to believe it was "working" well. I just flat out quit.

Because that's what I needed to do.

I couldn't keep grabbing the hot pan after burning my hand over and over and over. So I stopped.

And it was the best thing possible.

Even at the beginning of our new MC cycle (which my wife insisted that we try again), she was minimizing everything. At the first session, I didn't give the A story, even though I went first. I made her tell it. Not because I wasn't still hurting, but because I wablnted to see if she would, and if she did, HOW she would tell it.

At that first session, she said "There was nothing physical." I looked at her, disappointed & dumbfounded because it had been physical. She looked at my face and said "Well, there was some kissing, but nothing sexual."

I left it there, but at the next session, I unloaded. I recounted EVERYTHING she had told me about their sexually charged texting & conversations. About how I didn't believe that "nothing happened" given their expressed desires AND opportunities available. About how she lied to me over and over and over in the first 14 months and about how I had no belief that this was about to be any different.

Then, the MC unloaded on her.

The MC dug into her about honesty, about how SHE (Mrs. Cap) didn't get to decide how I felt or how healed I should be, about how minimizing and not taking responsibility would be the ultimate downfall of the relationship. Yes, she (the MC) would give us tools for discussing everything, but if Mrs. Cap wasn't going to commit to being open, honest, and empathetic, then we would be doomed from the start.

It took another 6 months for Mrs. Cap to truly exhibit changes. Was she "perfect"? Nope. In fact,we're a few months I to year 6 and she still gets things wrong.

But now, she seems genuinely concerned when she does. She expresses sadness & empathy for doing things that she never cared about before (i.e. making accusatory statements such as "So you scratched the pan with a spoon" rather than asking questions like "Did you use a spoon in the pan"). She at least says the right things, even if I still have a hard time believing the emotion expressed. That's going to take consistency over time.

The second year is really the hardest, in my opinion. Especially if you're trying to work everything out with R. The blinders are off. You're asking yourself whether the person in front of you now is REALLY the one you married. You're seeking an answer to the question of whether you can ever trust her again and whether you even want to put forth the energy to try anymore. It took a LOT of energy just to survive those first, trauma infused months. Now that the adrenaline has worn off, it is VERY tiring.

Eventually, the pain does dull, whether from time passing, from you working on yourself independently, or from actually working through things together. Even at 6 years out, there are still moments...but they're only moments...where things come back/pop up.

It will get better, easier, more manageable. These days, the memory of the A is more like a candle in the corner of a dark room in my mind, illuminating a small area, flickering up & down a bit. It is no longer a roaring bonfire, heating the entire house, lighting everything around it.

Did you want more than they were able to give? Or was it a case of no matter how hard they tried, it may still not be enough. It may never be enough.

I wanted more, not than she was ABLE to give, but more than she had been WILLING to give. I knew there was more effort available, but in order to give that effort, she had to WANT to give it. And she didn't want to until almost 5 years post D-day v2.0. Mrs. Cap never really tried her best until she was at the end of the line and faced with the ONE thing her ICs ever did that mattered...she had to decide if she was truly willing to fight for her marriage or if what she was saying about wanting to make things work were just empty words. In the face of ALL the damage her ICs did (that I won't get I to here), her last one did tell her that she needed to put up or shut up. And the MC we had held her feet to that fire.

May God bless your broken road, wherever it takes you.

@CaptainRogers

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It really helps hearing your perspective.

Im just hoping year 3 starts to get a little easier. The thing is I see that she tries so hard. I see she wants it. But at times I think how could she want this? Look what she has done.

I asked her what she loves about me. It was an exercise I was asked to do by me IC. I have asked the question a few times and its like she doesn't seem to understand the question. She keeps asking what I mean? She will just respond with "I just love you". I will say why she will say "I just do".

But when I asked her about her AP she was able to run off a list for him. They had a laugh, they had fun, they got on. The list goes on.

And she wonders why I feel second best.

And she wonders why I feel second best.

I wholeheartedly get that piece. We're still actually working through all that in my world. At first, my wife was all "He made me feel like X, Y, Z." And all I could ever get out of her after asking why she didn't just leave was "I don't know. I guess somewhere deep inside I loved you."

She still has trouble expressing what is "loveable" about me. She will name a physical feature that she finds attractive or say something about how I interact with the kids. Ultimately, I realized that what I've searched for is a rebuilding of my own picture of myself. And I've looked to her to do it.

But I had to stop doing that. I had to go find a way to rebuild my own image. I've had to figure our who I am, why I'm good enough. I've taken time for things that I love to do (hunting, baseball games) and I spend time with people that I want to be around. I've basically decided that I'm at the point in life where, if I don't want to do X, I no longer do X because I think someone else will be disappointed. I took control of me.

And now, I like who I am. I don't ask "Why do you love me?" or "What is loveable about me?" anymore. Not because I know deep down what her answers are, but because they don't matter. I know my own worth. I self-validate at this point.

And, at some level, it was her inability to self-validate that allowed her to go searching for the validation outside of the marriage.

It does get easier over time. Spending time at SI helped me considerably. I've gone from being on constantly to checking in every few days to maybe once every few weeks.

My IC worked with me as well to rebuild my self-confidence. In my younger years, I often crossed the line between confidence and arrogance, especially on the athletic field. I knew my talent & I put it on full display. I was captain of my college baseball team. In two years in an independent league, I was Rookie of the Year and a Gold Glove winner. In business, I won several awards for being one of the top producers each of my first 3 years.

And none of that mattered when I discovered my wife's A. In the 6 years since, I've had to go back and rebuild all of my own self-confidence. More recently, she has gotten on board with doing that. Whether it's from the guilt felt by her destruction of it (which our MC made PLAIN for her to see) or simply be ause she wants to take some role in it, she has started to be more vocal about things in a good way.

Perhaps your wife doesn't fully understand the damage done to the BS's psyche. If she is truly trying her best, perhaps being able to vocalize the need for her help in restoring your self-confidence, hearing what she loves about you, why she respects you, what attributes you have that she admires, and other various words of affection & affirmation can do for your soul. Not to put all the power/ownership on her hands, but to show her specifically what you want/need as you go through the recovery process.

You are your own best advocate. Sit down with her and tell her what you're looking for. Advocate for yourself.

WW here. Some things stuck out to me in your post.

In the middle of a bad argument, she at times threatens me and says that she will leave as I clearly can’t get over this or maybe I should leave. She has said that I need to get over it. It happened a long time ago and that I’m acting like a child. She says I’m selfish and only think about myself.

This right here says that she's not a good candidate for R at this time. However long ago something happened, it still affects you deeply. My dad died of cancer 18yrs ago and, from time to time, I still miss him deeply and it affects how I am during the day. My H doesn't say, "He died 18yrs ago, just get over it!" What you had happen to you was worse than my dad dying when I was young. You expect your parents to die before you, you don't marry expecting your spouse to cheat.

I remember 2yrs out, I was working on rebuilding. We were in MC, I had been doing IC about 2 years by that point. Things had gotten past the "white hot anger" phase for my H (I told him one year in to IC or D because I wasn't going to live with his uncontrolled rage anymore). Yes, I would be defensive. I'm still working on that (but have achieved a better handle on it). We were actively working on our communication skills. When my H would trigger and go into bat-shit angry mode (who wouldn't at that point on occasion still??), I would calmly say that I am staying in this, if he wanted to leave, that was up to him. He knew though at that point that I could leave him if he didn't get a handle on himself and his anger. Not stuffing it, but learning to express the UNDERLYING emotion appropriately. And I knew that I had to get past my knee jerk defensiveness and just LISTEN.

Did you wayward continue to do everything they could to make you heal or was there times when they would retaliate and not be the perfect wayward that you wish and believed they should now be. Because I suppose at the end of the day just because she cheated doesn’t mean she won’t get angry

I bolded the make you heal part. My H had a big problem with this- he expected me to heal him from the damage I caused. Thing is, and it's not a popular thing for BS's to hear, but us WS's have our work (sorting out our shitty boundaries, the holes in our character). BS's have their work too, namely healing their insecurities and trauma. That doesn't mean that we WS's aren't responsible for creating the open, honest and safe environment needed for a BS to be ABLE to do their work, but we can't do their work for them.

Basically, WS's need to be responsible for their growth and healing to become worthy of even being CONSIDERED for R. We then are responsible for learning to be the best spouse we can for our BS, especially in SUPPORTING their healing. The BS has to do their healing themselves.

To that point, what are you doing for your healing? Are you in IC? Have you sought out some real-life mentoring for this journey? Do you have a strong support group of people loyal to you?

What has SHE done to make herself a safe partner? Has she gone to IC, NC with AP, offered a timeline? If you're going to reconcile, as the WS, she's got to go first.

Around 2 years in, plus or minus, is approximately where most BH's step to the edge of what is sometimes abbreviated the "POLF" -- the Plain of Lethal Flatness. Like standing on the edge of the Mojave Desert, getting ready to cross on foot. This phase results from the dull realization that "this is as good as it gets." The A and the bitter acrid taste it summons when you think of it, that will be your lifelong companion, a permanent plus one your WW invited into your marriage without your knowledge nor consent. It's a common node for divorces.

In other words, your progress and emotions at this phase is/are 100% totally normal. Your WW would know this if she had invested a modicum of effort into reading about and understanding affair recovery. Saying "haven't you gotten over this yet" is the clearest sign - a loud trumpet - that she has not been and will never be a good candidate for R.

Thanks for your responses

I would just like to say that I believe that my WW should be supportive, not defensive. I understand that even wayward will get tired especially when they have been trying for such a long time.

I know they have a little defensiveness and it’s because of constant trying, frustration or stress and they apologise a little later that's one thing. But they need to show they care for the right reasons.

I’m coming up to a point in the year where I'm triggered due to some upcoming affair anniversaries. The next 3 months is going to be hard for me and probably just as hard for my wife.

We argued for the first time in a while and it was like I'm the bad one. She was talking like I should be over this and its now my fault that I'm stuck. She has used the words like I need to help myself. I need to move on as it was a long time ago and so on.

She is now painting the picture of her being the perfect person. She says I'm causing the problems. She is no longer a cheat and no longer a liar. I need to look at myself as I'm the one destroying things now.

Maybe I am the one preventing reconciliation.

She yelled she hates me. But then after things calmed down she said she gets angry too and she doesn't mean it.

Everywhere I read, it looks like the wayward is perfect. They don't get defensive, they don't name call and don't argue back. But that can’t be the case, can it? Everyone here is human and in an argument, no matter if you cheated or not, there must be friction. It can’t all be a bed of rose with regards to reconciliation.

IMO, BSes need to clear about what they want, and they need to communicate what they want to their BSes, if they want to R.

You have to show your vulnerability to your W, even though there's a possibility that she will use it against you. If she does that, though, you'll know R won't work.

Your posts say to me that you haven't tested your W much, and that when you have tested her in gentle ways, she hasn't passed with flying colors. If I'm reading your posts correctly, you need to recognize that. If you want her to change, you need to ask for the changes you want, even though she may refuse, because she doesn't seem to be on your wavelength at this point..

You write that you don't believe your W's story. I don't think R is possible for you unless you resolve that conflict within yourself.

You seem to be set on R but unhappy. Right now you seem to didge the possibility that R is not right for you. Have you considered D? I'm not recommending D, but you seem to be stuck, and one way to get unstuck is to try something different. If you haven't considered D, doing so might help.

Alternatively, now might be a good time to ask yourself (and answer): what's keeping you in this M? What do you want to change?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:00 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

Almost everything my wife said wrong were close to direct quotes of the haphazard, self-guided/detain and torture option out of HTHYSHFYA. Don't know how often you return to that book, but it's really good at driving the points home as to why it's a problem without making it a personal attack.

I asked her what she loves about me. It was an exercise I was asked to do by me IC. I have asked the question a few times and its like she doesn't seem to understand the question. She keeps asking what I mean? She will just respond with "I just love you". I will say why she will say "I just do".

But when I asked her about her AP she was able to run off a list for him. They had a laugh, they had fun, they got on. The list goes on.

It looks like your WW is white-knuckling the attempt at R. She is 'forcing' herself to R because YOU want it so much. She may not want to R at all, but may feel obligated to you to R.

The ease at which she can come up with positive descriptors for her ex(?)-AP seems to indicate that she still hold positive feelings for him, whilst it is a non-effort response to you.

As others have posted, your WW may seem to be 'perfect' at what she is doing in the R process, but she is not ready/willing to R.

A WS that would be considered 'safe' for R, would have empathy for the BS and the destruction they had wrought.

From what you have posted, your WW understands it technically. She says the words, but they sound hollow. She seems to be going through the motions.

BFTG said - it's a common theme for the BS:

Around 2 years in, plus or minus, is approximately where most BH's step to the edge of what is sometimes abbreviated the "POLF" -- the Plain of Lethal Flatness. Like standing on the edge of the Mojave Desert, getting ready to cross on foot. This phase results from the dull realization that "this is as good as it gets." The A and the bitter acrid taste it summons when you think of it, that will be your lifelong companion, a permanent plus one your WW invited into your marriage without your knowledge nor consent. It's a common node for divorces.

p12241342:
Mine changed "for the better" - a bit less selfish and just slightly more empathy. but not much overall

Did I ever get the truth? or - can a snowball survive in hell?

You pays your money and takes your chances - and reserve the right to move on if life circumstances dictate a course change

If she had invested even a modicum of energy into reviewing "HTHYSHFYA" or other infidelity literature, she would know that your current level of pain is totally normal. The fact that she has invoked "you should be over this", more than once, that tells you pretty much everything you need to know.

My H changed immediately on dday2 as he wanted to R and I planned to D him.

It’s almost 10 years later but he’s not reverted back to any suspicious activity or been less than 100% honest and transparent.

He did this on his own. Because he truly wanted to R.

It looks like your WW is white-knuckling the attempt at R. She is 'forcing' herself to R because YOU want it so much. She may not want to R at all, but may feel obligated to you to R.

I’m afraid I agree with this. I’ve been reading your posts every time for the last two years and I don’t understand what is changing. Every time you come up with the same issue and no, I don’t believe it is because YOU have damaged your reconciliation chances, but because your WS is not R material.

Each time you say she is doing everything required. Each time I ask you to articulate what that means. I’m not sure if I ever saw a response so I’ll ask again, what actions is she taking to become a safe partner and reassure you of that?

However what I see in your posts is a cheater who thinks threatening you to leave and divorce can somehow make things better. Any cheater who does that (and doesn’t actually initiate divorce) is basically re-traumatising their BS, what that means, translated in non remorseful cheater behaviour is "if you behave I will not abandon you again, be nice, don’t hold me accountable and then I’ll remain married to you". I challenge you to ask her to follow through next time, when she threatens divorce ask her to move out.

Listen, one of the first things a WS can do post dday to help the Bs heal, if they want to reconcile and are truly remorseful, is to make their BS feel safe to be vulnerable again. Showing your pain takes a huge amount of vulnerability and when your WS joins you in your pain (rather than threatening to leave you) you start feeling safe with them again gradually.

I don’t know why your wife is incapable of understanding the insecurities her affair ignited into you. I find it very sad that her response to why she loved you is "because I do". That stings. But I can tell you that it is in your power to put those insecurities to rest. You are the one that decides your own value. Not your wife.

But when I asked her about her AP she was able to run off a list for him. They had a laugh, they had fun, they got on. The list goes on

This almost makes me puke. I don’t remember my WH, two years out, still having fond memories of his AP he was waaay too disgusted by his actions and the trauma it inflicted on me to be able to list how “fun” it all was.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 2:55 PM, Wednesday, March 1st]

Maybe I am the one preventing reconciliation.

I don't believe that you are preventing reconciliation, but you ARE responsible for where you are at. Right now. Today.

You are responsible, because after you discovered infidelity in your marriage, you were given back your agency. You surely were traumatized, unfairly, but you had, and have, the ability to make choices about your future.

I think sisoon has summed it up well. You need to not only make your voice heard, but you have to decide what is going to make you happy. That may or may not be through reconciliation. I can tell you, from what you describe in this and previous posts, your WW isn't there....yet. She may never get there, and this is where you need to answer your internal questions---"How much more of this am I willing to put my efforts into?" That is a question that only you can answer, but understand, you are responsible for these choices. Just because our options may be shitty, doesn't mean that we don't have to choose one of them. Inaction, or inability to choose, is still a choice that one has to be responsible for.

***Damn---I know that I am not supposed to end sentences with a preposition, but it seems that it is always the case.***

@ Luna10

Thanks for all your replies over the past couple of years. I do really appreciate it.

So much has changed. But maybe not enough has changed for me to trust. May be she isn’t R material. May be it’s hard to explain the actual real life situation in text over a series of posts. When I say that she is doing everything required, I think she is doing a lot. Maybe I’m the one causing the problems, because I just can’t get over it. I just don’t know.

To show me she is a safe partner, she has done the following

Cut contact with the AP from the moment the affair come to light (and stuck to it)
Changed her telephone number
Deleted all social media
Moved cities
Read some books
Answered questions whenever I needed. Even at early hours of the morning when we had work the next day. Even though we had done it many times before.

She has supported me through IC and every day she tried to show me that we both can do this. She will check in with me every day, from the moment she gets into work and throughout the day telling me she loves me. She listens to my issues. She tells me we can do this and why. She will talk about the future and want to make plans.

But I’m very hard to live with now since the affair. It’s coming up to 2 years but it broke my heart. I’m struggling. But not anywhere near as much as I did this time last year.

My biggest problem is still not believing and trying to move on with my life. Trying to love myself and building a life after the affair.

Every now and again my wife will lose her cool and say she is going to leave or she will say for me to leave if that’s I want. Later she will say that she gets mad and angry too. She doesn’t mean it and she isn’t going anywhere. I do believe that she wouldn’t leave. She has put a lot in to us and our family since the affair and I do believe she is trying. I do believe that she is capable of R. I admit at times I only post the side that I see. But every situation has two sides to the story.

I do believe she is capable of R. I do believe she is trying. But I do think at times she gets that mad and then she snaps.

We have come this far and we are still here. Both of us. But at times I question everything.

Its still raw for me and I am struggling. But I don’t want to chuck away my marriage and she has assured me that neither does she… And she won’t…

@sissoon

You are right, I haven’t tested here that much and if I have they have been in gentle ways. I think that’s the biggest part. I want to believe her story but I don’t. I 100% am set on R. I don’t want to lose my family. I love my wife and I would do anything to protect that. It’s just a shame that she didn’t feel the same or share the same values. D is not something I want to consider. It would be a last resort, I really don’t want that to be the case and to give up.

I am stuck. I do think a lot of this is my fault. It’s a problem that I’m probably causing now. My wife keeps saying that it’s me that’s now destroying the chance of our new happiness.

If I could change anything in my marriage it would be to believe her version of the truth.

I am so so sorry you are still hurting so badly.

A lot of what you listed are only the first steps the WS can take to show they mean business when it comes to R. To me however it appears that your wife hasn’t moved to the next part of it, actual work on herself and her whys. You’ve mentioned actions she takes towards you. You do not mention actions she takes to actually make herself a safe partner and find out her whys. A lot of those actions seem to be about soothing you rather than making herself accountable and authentic.

I’ve asked before and I’m not sure if you answered, is your WS in IC? I believe she isn’t which is a big red flag.

Your wife threatens you to leave because you’re 100% set on R. Focus on yourself, I’ve said this before, make sure you are healing, you get to what you want your life (not your family life, please note the distinction) to look like and your relationship with your wife will fall into place if she finds the right path.

Here is a thread where some users are stating what the "work" meant for them

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/660395/what-would-doing-the-work-even-look-like/

@Luna10

Thank you. I have taken a look at the post that your recommended and one of the things that stood out what putting others first.

My wife puts everyone first before herself. Ok she didn't at the time of the affair. But with regards to everything else, she really does put everyone else first.

That makes me think that may be she stayed with me because of the kids and because she didn't want to hurt me. She just couldn't do it when push come to shove.

But when we have argued she has said a few times, that I'm selfish. That I don't think about how anyone else feels. Its all about me. But then later, she says she didn't mean it. She says that its not all down to her to fix us. It takes two. We both need to work on fixing and its not all down to her.

Affairs are acts of selfishness, is she putting others first or is she a people pleaser?

You have not clarified, is she in IC? And if not why not?