SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Luna : Thanks. I think you're spot on, like Dude67. I need to work on myself and spend less time with her. I work from home so she knows where to always find me. She knows I'm here and she knows my social life is quite slow (I'm an introvert) and I think she's fine with it, since she knows she doesn't have to put in much effort to get me when she needs it. Funny thing is she was so sure I'll always come running when she rang, that during the A, when she became so full of herself, she repeatedly told the AP "him ? he'll never leave me" or "he'll never cheat on me, I know that for a fact".

ChamomileTea

I still find very hard to hear the words above, after having read things like "I could spend all day with you in bed", "We'll have a picnic, I'll be your dessert", "I want you so much", "I'll rip off your bathing suit" etc etc.

I think what helped me was realizing that most of the exchanges I read were bullshit. My fWH said a lot of things to a lot of women. I read email exchanges and discerned this chameleon-like behavior where he loved music and hobbies I knew he didn't care about, where he was always "turned on", always "melted" by her eyes or her boobs or her unibrow or whatever. rolleyes

I KNOW HIM. HE could be writing out all those sweet, sexy nothings while eating a sandwich and balancing his checkbook.

I think sometimes the first challenge we face is deciding what the real truth is, and to be frank with you, as much as it hurt to read those things, I knew they weren't an accurate representation of the truth. It was the "Polly-wants-a-cracker" truth. He wanted someone to say those kinds of things to him, he wanted flattery and attention... so he created a venue for that to happen by priming the pump with flattery and attention and saying the things he wanted to hear.

From the outside looking in, he seemed really invested, and even he believed his own rhetoric at times because he was so immersed in it. He actually thought he was in love with that last OW, but the reality is that he was over it almost immediately after the affair ended, kind of like getting nitrous at the dentist's office. It makes you really loopy but after a few breaths of clean air, you're sober again. The whole point of the cheating is that "loopy" feeling. It's not about the AP.

Thank you for such wise words. You can't know how much you've already helped me. As a matter of fact I read a lot of your posts when I discovered the A (I only subscribed last year but I've been reading for almost 3 years now).

You may very well be right regarding the stupid things they say to keep the affair going. With hindsight, I also remember she told him what were clearly LIES a few months into their relationship. Lies about what she did during the day, lies about her sexual experience (she added quite a few imaginary lovers, and even some girls... she knew it would make him crazy and it did)

In the next months the lies are less easy to verify, but as you say, many exchanges may not have been an accurate representation of the truth. She already confessed to me many times (I have been bombarding her with questions non-stop for a whole year+...) that she was just telling him what she thought he wanted to hear. But coming from a liar how can you believe what's real and what's not ? That being said, even if the lies are less easy to detect in their exchanges, as Luna was saying there are some sentences that are just hilarious when you stop for a minute and think about it

[This message edited by iamjack at 5:29 PM, Wednesday, May 3rd]

With hindsight, I also remember she told him what were clearly LIES a few months into their relationship.

In all the hurt of being betrayed, I think sometimes we miss this very important clue. Oftentimes, the WS is trying on this persona and maintaining the fantasy requires lies, both big and small. They say that the first person a WS lies to is himself, or herself in this case. I think that's true, and the lies spread out from there. If she said, "I'm an astronaut" and then suddenly started telling all and sundry big whoppers about walking on the moon and being weightless while eating spaghetti, it's easy to see the fantasy, the delusion, for what it is. When it's all mixed up and compartmentalized with actual reality, it's like smashing two glasses together and then trying to sort out which pieces are which from the shape of the shards.

Once I realized that cheating is about the cheater it became so much easier to let go of the pain and insult of what he had done. And really, every instinct in our bodies seems to tell us to hold onto that pain, as if holding onto it would somehow prevent it from happening again. We have a confirmation bias at that point, a reason to ignore that very important clue. But that's just trauma. It's not what's happening now.

ChamomileTea
With hindsight, I also remember she told him what were clearly LIES a few months into their relationship.

In all the hurt of being betrayed, I think sometimes we miss this very important clue. Oftentimes, the WS is trying on this persona and maintaining the fantasy requires lies, both big and small. They say that the first person a WS lies to is himself, or herself in this case. I think that's true, and the lies spread out from there. If she said, "I'm an astronaut" and then suddenly started telling all and sundry big whoppers about walking on the moon and being weightless while eating spaghetti, it's easy to see the fantasy, the delusion, for what it is. When it's all mixed up and compartmentalized with actual reality, it's like smashing two glasses together and then trying to sort out which pieces are which from the shape of the shards.

Once I realized that cheating is about the cheater it became so much easier to let go of the pain and insult of what he had done. And really, every instinct in our bodies seems to tell us to hold onto that pain, as if holding onto it would somehow prevent it from happening again. We have a confirmation bias at that point, a reason to ignore that very important clue. But that's just trauma. It's not what's happening now.

My god, this is last sentence is exactly what I've been through. I kept holding on to the pain, I kept and read a thousand times the words they exchanged, trying to seek the answers to my questions... I documented everything, spied on her every move, every bank account, every phone calls, every social media, even on the notes in her phone... To no avail. As you say, this could not prevent the A from happening again, this was mostly just a huge waste of time (I say mostly because it was useful the first few months, when she was still in the fog of the A that just ended).

You're right, things are different now and I shouldn't care about all this...

Jack, hugs to you my brother. What you are going through is some bullshit. I'm glad to hear that you are taking time for yourself to help sort all this out. The following from your last post prompted me to reach out:

things are different now and I shouldn't care about all this...

I know you're going through a lot, but this is exactly the type of thing you should be thinking about (in my humble opinion).

There has been plenty of discussion about how your wife's sexual behavior during the affair was or could have been nothing more than lies, transactions, and or fantasy. I am with others in thinking that your wife likely wasn't sincere while she was grasping about for something to fill her needs. But where does that leave you now? After all, while she was flailing about, she punched you square in the balls. Now you are in pain and she is doing what? I have to say, it doesn't sound like she cares.

It appears to me, that your wife would like nothing more than to go back to her "normal' self, especially in the sex with you department. For now, she's ramped up the frequency, but is she initiating it? Or simply saying "I guess so". Will this last?

My dude, and I'm raising a glass in cheers, there are many parts to the excellent advice of focusing on you. Some involve doing hobbies, etc. But you also need to figure out if you are ok with how your wife is now.

Since most of the talk so far has revolved around sex, are you ok with missing adventure in the bedroom (or wherever you would like it )? It's clear to me that you would like more varied sex, but how does this fit into the grand scheme? YOUR grand scheme.

I saw my name posted so I thought I would weigh in. First, I agree with this 100%

If I may offer some suggestions. Please do not burst into tears at your therapist’s office lamenting that your wife isn’t giving you the cuddles and hugs that you want. Please stop begging forI’m affection.

You said you had a castrating mother, but it seems that you are following in those footsteps with your WW. The comments she made about you never leaving her is an illustration. She knows that she can put in a minimum of effort and still keep you. You take her on a vacation and she refuses sex with you? WTF. She goes and does things with the AP that you also would want, if not act wise, but at least in passion. Nope. The AP got those things because he was smart in going about getting them. Do you think she didn’t have sex with him on their little excursions? Hell no. He got those things because he expected them so she enthusiastically responded. You are pleading for those things and she is responding with nothing.

You need to be way more aggressive. Be forceful in your sexual encounters. Try some rougher sex which she probably enjoyed with him. Not to the point of forcing her into acts that she doesn’t want, but put yourself first. Concentrate on getting your needs met. Not always, but some of the time at least as an experiment. If you go on another trip and she gives excuses, pull the suitcase out and start packing and you tell her that this doesn’t work for me and I’m going home. Why is she calling all the shots? She is the one who fucked up. And not even in a small way. Her and him put you through the wringer. Have you read their correspondence? My guess he was putting you down and she did little to stop it.

I agree with the others that affair sex is probably not sustainable. It’s great that your frequency has increased so much, but she should be pulling out all the stops. Remember, she was walking all over you until you made. It clear you were stopping the pick me dance. By your actions here, you have fallen back into a quasi version of this.

Did she ever have any consequences other than the usual bullshit "I saw what this did to him and that is my punishment".

Going to the gym is good. Outside interests too. She needs to know that you will be ok without her. Crying in front of her this long into the game denotes otherwise.

{duplicate}

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:22 PM, Wednesday, May 3rd]

I kept holding on to the pain, I kept and read a thousand times the words they exchanged, trying to seek the answers to my questions... I documented everything, spied on her every move, every bank account, every phone calls, every social media, even on the notes in her phone... To no avail.

This is so familiar. I was still struggling with rumination three years out as well. After dday, I thought I didn't need therapy. I mean, what was some therapist going to tell me that I couldn't read in a book or figure out for myself, right? But somewhere after the two year mark, I realized that I was hopelessly muddled. I kept treading over the same ground, day after day, every detail seemed to repeat in my mind like it was on a loop. And this is the weird part, even after a year of therapy with my therapist doing all in her power to get me to stop, I still wouldn't believe that I couldn't somehow THINK my way out of the problem. I was so sure that there must be purpose to it. Everywhere I looked, other BS's were stuck in this same cycle. There just had to be a reason for it, right?

At this point, I think it's a little bit of both. Yes, there's purpose to rumination, but yes.. we do have to make it stop. I've become convinced that it's all about trauma and how the brain processes traumatic injury. As victims, we need to recreate "the story" of what happened to us, and because trauma kind of short-circuits our storage function and makes the new information feel unreliable, we have to verify it over and over and over again. I think that's the reason why we see rumination is the vast majority of BS's recovering from betrayal. Here's the thing though, past the point where that story is complete and we believe with every particle of our being that we have the right information, we have to stop stewing on it. Think of it as wearing a groove into your brain like an old vinyl record. We're literally creating a neural pathway that is making us crazy by continuing a rumination habit.

What finally helped me was the parable of the two wolves...

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.

"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego." He continued, "The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

When I started thinking about the neural pathways in my brain as being under my control, I could see which to starve and which to feed. I eventually got to the point where I looked at it like watching TV with a remote control in my hand. When my brain got on the rumination path, I changed the channel. I am satisfied that I have recreated "the story". There comes a point at which we have to trust our own judgment as to whether we've got it right or not, and that sounds so scary, but there IS a safety net, and that safety net is YOU.

When we first embark on our R journey, we're so terrified that we're going to get destroyed again. We don't have any guarantees, do we? We thought we were safe in our relationship before and look how that turned out, right? There came a point though where I realized that I was going to be okay if I was wrong. Say, it turned out that I had misread the entire situation and my WH rolled on out of here again. I would be sad, sure... but I would NOT be destroyed. Somehow, I had gained strength through all this turmoil, strength I didn't know I had. It turns out that I don't need to trust him completely. I need to trust ME. I need to trust that if I stick my neck out and take emotional risks, that I'll be okay if it all goes to pot, and I will.

There's a sort of severing that happens when we're intimately betrayed. We go from being enmeshed with this other person to suddenly, terrifyingly, being on our own again. It's brutal. But... it also MAKES us rely on ourselves, and once we've recognized our own self-reliance, we can then begin to build on it, appreciate it, grow it. That doesn't mean we can't enjoy an emotionally intimate relationship. It just means we're no longer dependent on it for emotional fulfillment. We are enough all on our own if it comes down to it.

It sounds to me like a bunch of this other stuff is basic marital negotiations. If your WW can't sleep because you're snoring, get on a CPAP. You wouldn't believe how much it will improve your sleep. If you're wanting more physical touch, talk about it, ask for it, make time for it. If your WW is having trouble with menopause, believe me... it sucks and doctors basically want to pat us on our noses and tell us it's all very normal , but talk to some specialists about bioidentical hormone replacement. Take it seriously. Be proactive. Get onboard for whatever treatment she's interested in.

All in all, I think at three years out, you're doing pretty well. Healing is hard. We don't get instructions. We just have to muddle our way through. You're making lemonade out of lemons though. Progress.

ETA: I just also wanted to add that I did benefit from getting EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) therapy. It really helped me with the triggers. It doesn't make you forget or anything like that. It just makes the trigger less visceral. Scientists aren't really sure why it works, but it's though that it helps to shift the storage on certain memories. Give it some consideration if you're still stuck.

ETA 2: You don't need to to a bunch of chest-thumping in order to get R on your terms, Jack. Playing games is not an attractive look on anyone. We take such a hard, bruising hit to our self-esteem when a spouse strays... but it's not about us. It's about them. Nothing you did, nothing you failed to do, MADE your WW cheat. She did that because of her, not because of you. If this could all be fixed with some comical display of great ape chest-thumping, we'd all just do that. It's not that easy though.

You're doing fine. Really. When a WS is truly remorseful and when they really want R, they want the person they fell in love with, same as we do.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:31 PM, Wednesday, May 3rd]

I wanted the passion I had read through these thousands pages of chat transcripts. And in a way, for a while, we were kinda like that. But she later told me she felt obligated to give in to my demands, and that the felt trapped.

Well, of course she felt obligated—if it isn’t something that comes naturally, then if it’s done, it’s done out of some form of obligation.

The problem as I see it, and always see it with these types of posts, is that while your wants and desires are completely, 100% legitimate and reasonable and valid, they clearly conflict with what she wants and feels. You can accept "fake it ‘til you make it" from her until either her feeling of being obligated wears off or you give up,, you can leave and try to find mutual passion elsewhere, you can continue to spin your current wheels over it—all valid options. You just have to decide which is most palatable to you. But you can’t negotiate or demand authentic sexual desire and you can’t control other people, only yourself.

waitedwaytoolong

You said you had a castrating mother, but it seems that you are following in those footsteps with your WW. The comments she made about you never leaving her is an illustration. She knows that she can put in a minimum of effort and still keep you. You take her on a vacation and she refuses sex with you? WTF. She goes and does things with the AP that you also would want, if not act wise, but at least in passion. Nope. The AP got those things because he was smart in going about getting them. Do you think she didn’t have sex with him on their little excursions? Hell no. He got those things because he expected them so she enthusiastically responded. You are pleading for those things and she is responding with nothing.

You're right. I put her on a pedestal for so long. I know I was emotionnally dependant on her (not financially, I earn 4 to 5 times what she does) But this is not the case today. And all your comments help me proceed with this change, so thank you.

You need to be way more aggressive. Be forceful in your sexual encounters. Try some rougher sex which she probably enjoyed with him.

I'm positive sex with him wasn't aggressive. He wasn't what we could call an alpha, more like an obsessive, depressed, lonely divorced man with a history of lying and cheating. However sex with me is rough now, because I am rougher. And she likes that.

On I sidenote, I read your whole story, and that was really hard to read. I also would have D. if she did the same to me. I hope you're living your best life now.

Not to the point of forcing her into acts that she doesn’t want, but put yourself first. Concentrate on getting your needs met. Not always, but some of the time at least as an experiment. If you go on another trip and she gives excuses, pull the suitcase out and start packing and you tell her that this doesn’t work for me and I’m going home. Why is she calling all the shots? She is the one who fucked up. And not even in a small way. Her and him put you through the wringer. Have you read their correspondence? My guess he was putting you down and she did little to stop it.

I don't think I would go as far as packing up, as it means she still has leverage on me and my feelings, more like don't care and never offer her another trip like that again.

I agree with the others that affair sex is probably not sustainable. It’s great that your frequency has increased so much, but she should be pulling out all the stops. Remember, she was walking all over you until you made. It clear you were stopping the pick me dance. By your actions here, you have fallen back into a quasi version of this.

I may have in the past, but I don't think I reverted to the man I was before. A part of me died three years ago, and there's no way I'm reverting back to my old self. But you're right in the sense that it sometimes feels like she would like to push me back to that docile, always demanding man I was.

Did she ever have any consequences other than the usual bullshit "I saw what this did to him and that is my punishment".

Now that is a good question, one that has been haunting me for some years now. First, what punishment are we talking about ? From the outside looking in, it may seem she even gained from the A. I became a better man, I took many things in charge for the house and for us, I spent a fortune to finally have our home embellished, a brand new pool and landscaping (we have almost an acre of garden), I created a home cinema room, took her on overseas trips (well that was for our kids also, but nevertheless). And of course, we married last year and throw a huge party here.

So yes, it may seem she's really better off than before. But would I say she never had to face the consequences of what she did ? Her family and especially her mother blamed her for what she did and she still does. Everybody knows now, and she's still remorseful when we talk about it. My wife went through a lot of IC sessions and I believe this was an opportunity to do the work on her she should have done years ago.

Going to the gym is good. Outside interests too. She needs to know that you will be ok without her. Crying in front of her this long into the game denotes otherwise.

Loud and clear :)

[This message edited by iamjack at 11:54 AM, Thursday, May 4th]

ChamomileTea

You're doing fine. Really. When a WS is truly remorseful and when they really want R, they want the person they fell in love with, same as we do.

Thank you so much. It really gives me hope. And I love the parable of the two wolves. I have decided that I would use it everyday until it becomes a habbit. Worked this morning, I just went into a downward spiral, once again, while thinking of them, and when I saw myself doing this, I shook my head (this may have looked kinda weird from the outside) and changed the channel. It worked great, it even felt too easy I would say....

Darkness Falls

Well, of course she felt obligated—if it isn’t something that comes naturally, then if it’s done, it’s done out of some form of obligation.

The problem as I see it, and always see it with these types of posts, is that while your wants and desires are completely, 100% legitimate and reasonable and valid, they clearly conflict with what she wants and feels. You can accept "fake it ‘til you make it" from her until either her feeling of being obligated wears off or you give up,, you can leave and try to find mutual passion elsewhere, you can continue to spin your current wheels over it—all valid options. You just have to decide which is most palatable to you. But you can’t negotiate or demand authentic sexual desire and you can’t control other people, only yourself.

Thank you Darkness Falls. Interesting to have a point of view from a WS. Before I answer, I had a question : what does your signature mean, "remarried to BH but not in R" ? Does it mean you already reconciled ? I would love to know your story, how you made things work with your BH, if you don't mind. Maybe you already made a post somewhere ?

To follow on your comment, yes I know I can't control, negotiate or demand desire. I know this too well. That's why my recent attempts were more attempts to "recreate the conditions for", recreate moments when we could share something together, experience new things, talk about everything as we did when we just met, let her open up to me more, be the kind of man I would like to hang around with. And this helped our couple much more than whining...

[This message edited by iamjack at 8:20 AM, Thursday, May 4th]

That's why my recent attempts were more attempts to "recreate the conditions for", recreate moments when we could share something together, experience new things, talk about everything as we did when we just met, let her open up to me more, be the kind of man I would like to hang around with.

Be careful with this notion my friend. That verbiage could easily be viewed as a euphemism for the pick-me dance, which never works. Don't set yourself on fire to keep somebody else warm.

Butforthegrace

Be careful with this notion my friend. That verbiage could easily be viewed as a euphemism for the pick-me dance, which never works. Don't set yourself on fire to keep somebody else warm.

Sure, but don't be confused (I'm not a native english speaker so maybe I phrase things wrong) : I do things I want to enjoy first, not because I want her to like me more or whatnot. If I don't want to do stuff, or if I feel that's on her to take the initiative, I don't do anything at all. I'm not as desperate as I used to be. And I certainly don't care as much about her pleasure when we're having sex, as I used to do. If she reaches orgasm, hey that's cool (happens 99.9% of the time anyway) but if she doesn't, I don't care much (whereas this would have been very stressfull to me a few years ago, and even extremely stressfull a few months into R.)

[This message edited by iamjack at 11:48 AM, Thursday, May 4th]

Just my perspective....

Why allow you wife to bring her "C" game to the marriage?

There is nothing wrong with demanding her "A" game. Why not simply state your expectations. I would not recommend asking, I recommend very directly stating you want her "A" game in this marriage and you are not interested in her "C" game any longer.

She seems too comfortable, it seems a change in the dynamic may help you in your cause.

hardyfool

Just my perspective....
Why allow you wife to bring her "C" game to the marriage?
There is nothing wrong with demanding her "A" game. Why not simply state your expectations. I would not recommend asking, I recommend very directly stating you want her "A" game in this marriage and you are not interested in her "C" game any longer.
She seems too comfortable, it seems a change in the dynamic may help you in your cause.

What do you mean by "C" game or "A" game ? How would they translate concretely ? As Darkness Falls said here earlier, you can't demand passion, you can't negotiate authentic desire. Stating doesn't help : I already did.

My simple superficial definition of an "A" game.

Example: When you are pursuing or courting what would you normally do?

A person normally puts maximum effort into everything. I bet you planned or even stressed over where you would go, what you would wear, what the other person would think. Just to achieve that little smile, touch or other reaction. You would make every effort to be as attractive as you could to her, I know I did.

Basically think about all the EFFORT and things you would do for her when you were dating. I, for example went to a ballet, I don't like ballet, but I went, because it made her happy. I thought about her as a significant priority.

My superficial definition of a "C" game.

Is pretty much your description of your wife now in my opinion. You are tertiary priority for you wife, she is so comfortable "he will never leave me", that she feels little motivation to chase you.

Change that dynamic, don't be afraid to state your expectations. That you have little interest in her or anyone's "C" game.

Make her uncomfortable in the relationship..

Make her uncomfortable in the relationship..

I would differ. I don't believe in gambits that are calculated to try to catalyze some type of behavioral response. It's game-playing. Relationships live and die on authenticity and honesty. Gambits are, at their core, a species of dishonesty.

As discussed above, A sex is often highly immersive and intense. The cheating wife is willing to inject a lot of sexual brio because she values, at least situationally, whatever affirmation she believes she is getting from the A and/or the AP. Women know that they can keep a man's attention by throwing dakine sex at him. That's almost universally true.

Logic suggests that a BH could say: "If you want me to continue being your husband, I need you to show me, via the same type of sexual brio, that you now value what you get from me being your husband. I need you to show this to me by throwing the same enthusiastic sex at me."

The problem is, cheating isn't logical, and sexual brio isn't volitional. Either she feels it or she doesn't. Clearly she felt it during the A. WW's here (and many infidelity writers) will say that this was internally created by her, an artifice that was situational and unsustainable. Not consistent with the long term resonance of a healthy marriage. Whatever. It is what it is, and it is completely okay for you to want what the AP got.

If she says "no" to your request -- which your WW clearly has done -- then the ball is in your court. You cannot and should not try to force her to act it out for you. Sexual coercion is not okay, never mind it would feel ersatz and probably unsatisfying to you if she succumbed to this sort of compulsion.

It IS 100% legitimate and okay to leave her so that you can find your sexual satisfaction with somebody else. Cheating is always a 100% legitimate reason for divorce.

If you choose to stay, you should know, as I said in my first post, that what you have today is about as good as it's ever going to get. You need to look into the bathroom mirror and have a conversation with your 68-year old self. Will he be happy with the choice you make today?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:33 PM, Thursday, May 4th]

Thank you guys, this helps. In a way, I think you're both right... I do need to work on myself, and let her feel I'm not pursuing her as I used to do. But I need to change for myself, not with the goal to have her go from a "C" game to an "A" game as you say hardyfool. As much as I understand this dynamic, using it feels like being a pick-up artist, and I don't want to be that kinda guy.

If she doesn't want to give me what I need, Butforthegrace you're right, I need to move on. But before moving on, I will work on myself. Get out more, hit the gym more, etc. If she changes and starts to flatter, come closer, seek intimate moments with me more, well that's great.

If she doesn't, well... I know I'll be my best self for someone else. And also, I will have tried absolutely everything.

[This message edited by iamjack at 2:48 PM, Thursday, May 4th]

My intention was not for a "pick up line", it is a declaration of what you want to continue in this relationship. She either values you enough for her "A" game or you move on since her "C" game is less than you want with a wife.