SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I asked about OW, because you,at the least,need to know her name. How can you be sure of NC,if you don't know her name? And,if she is married,her husband deserves to know,just as you do. It's not about scorched earth. It's about doing the right thing. And, it is one of the single best things a new BS can do to protect themselves.

Sorry you don't like my energy. I tend to be blunt. By th4 time a BS arrives to this site, they've been lied to,gaslighted, and bullshitted enough. There are many members who will soothe you,and hold your hand. And, that's important. I call out the obvious lies,and try to empower a BS to end the abuse. Some appreciate that, some don't. And that's ok.

3. We are doing IC and MC. No the marriage didn't cheat. But our marriage did have issues and I own my side. I do not and am not owning his poor decision making skills. But I want to address all of it. We are going to hit at all cylinders and will have therapists agreeing or disagreeing with each other.

You're getting lots of good advice. I'm going to chime in on this bit.

Marriage counseling as a tool (even Gottman certified is a crapshoot for infidelity, IMO) is one that is based on two honest dealers needing better communication techniques to reach a shared understanding of their situation. My generic version of this is having to do with socks being left around the house.

"My husband takes his socks off wherever he is and just leaves them there. It drives me nuts, and no matter how much I tell him, it doesn't change."

Something like this. And the objective is to talk about that behavior and the emotions around it. Why does he take his socks off wherever? Why does he have a hard time recognizing that he does it and putting in the little bit of extra effort to get them in the hamper? Is there a simple reminder they could use? A little joke or coping mechanism when it doesn't go the right way?

Works great! Soon hubby is doing a little better and if he forgets the socks his wife says, "-2 points for Sockyndor." IDK, something like this.

Here is a fully copy paste of a reply I made to "How do I pick a therapist for MC?"

I have a hard time answering this question without getting a little "callback" joke to me walking out of my first MC's office.

Ask them if duty exists. Simple enough question, and very key in both infidelity and reconciliation. A question my first MC refused to answer after I explained that duty dictated why I did something.

Ask number two, "What can a person do to earn back trust?"

The MC needs to be the type that *will* actually hold the WS's feet to the fire and state plainly the having the affair is wrong, damaging, has killed all trust, and that recompense and rebuilding is necessary on the part of the WS.

The MC absolutely cannot be a "leave the socks around" therapist that treats an affair the same way as they treat a disagreement about one spouse leaving socks around the house wherever they happen to take them off. The actual conflict resolution or coping that you will get out of this type of MC is far too flexible. Emotional abuse is basically impossible for this type of MC to tell from a legitimate emotional desire.

Here's how this MC might sound

SOCKS VERSION:

MC: "How does it feel when you see your partners socks lying around the house?"

Clean Spouse: "I feel like they don't respect the effort it takes to keep the house clean."

MC: "Dirty spouse, see how that makes CS feel?"

DS: "Well it's just a pair of socks, I'm so tired at the end of the day. To me it's not a big deal. I'm just trying to relax in my own home and I get a huge sense of relief to just take my shoes and socks off when I get home and plop down. I mean to pick them up but I forget sometimes is all."

MC: "CS, see, DS doesn't see this action as disrespectful, they are just trying to relax, do you think you could just pick up the socks and give a friendly reminder when you do instead of letting this get you really mad?"

AFFAIR VERSION:

MC: "How does the affair make you feel?"

BS: "Unsafe, hurt, and betrayed. Like my whole life has been taken away from me."

MC: "See WS, BS is hurt, doesn't that make you want to stop the affair?"

WS: "I think that love is complicated and you can love multiple people. I don't see why my love for someone else hurts BS."

MC: "BS, see, they don't mean to hurt you. That relationship is important to WS. Can you see past your insecurity to let WS continue a relationship with AP, and just remind them that you make them the most important part of your relationship when they step out on you?"

Don't be surprised if some bullshit very close to this happens.

They really don't care who capitulates. They just try to make each person see the other person's view. They don't pass judgment and they don't arbitrate. They try to get you to agree no matter the cost to either individual. It's the M they are out to save.

Edit to add: What's more, you have to solve the A before attacking "all problems". Otherwise the other problems WILL get comingled with the A and turn into blameshifting. I do think it's great to do a full marriage triage and see if it's even worth trying. Maybe your M was already so bad, D was a better idea even before the A. Why do emergency affair treatment only to lose to the other marriage issues that predated it?

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 8:10 PM, Tuesday, May 30th]

This0is0fine, thank you for this. That's very helpful. Not blaming me for this is hard stop. Not minimizing the affair or any excuse for it is a hard stop. I completely agree and we will not see anyone who makes noise to the contrary.

We actually have some guidelines/expectations for the therapy we want to go over with the therapist, driven by my husband actually. And one of them is that there is no excusing the affair, what is their approach to helping support me through this and what is their approach to helping him fix what lead him to doing this. We are not looking for just talk therapy as we have done that and it doesn't work. I have also canceled us with a therapist years ago because she has us assess each other and what he wrote was horrible and lacked empathy. She supported it or took it as legit without questioning the spouse accessing and gave me feedback on what I needed to do better. It was such a betrayal to me by both of them.

Can you explain duty a bit more? I want to understand it.

The duty bit is a bit hard to get at without me retelling some of my story, so I apologize in advance for the pseudo-threadjack.

My first MC seemed decent and I asked her questions I was recommended on this forum when I vetted her. She agree there wasn't an excuse for the affair, she agreed to some other stuff.

Where things went horribly wrong was after I discover the "nest of vipers" situation that my wife's best friend in the area (and by any fair account a good mutual friend of mine), her sister, and her best friend from the previous city were all engaged in affairs of various sorts. It did take some encouragement inform all the of the BH's, but I did inform all of the BH's.

In the therapy my wife made a big deal out of this. That I betrayed her trust by tell her friend's husband, her sister's husband, and her other friend's husband about the ongoing betrayals they were suffering. When asked "why?" by the therapist I said something along the lines of "Based on Kant's categorical imperative it was the right thing to do. We have a duty to do the right thing."

She sort of rejected duty within an ethical framework as a motivation to do a thing. I asked her if duty exists, so that we could try to solidify what we are talking about. She refused to answer whether or not duty was actually a thing or whether it something that only existed as a personal individualized construct. So I walked out and fired her. I had a sort of mental meltdown at the time so if you want to read it live, here's the bit of my thread where it happened: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/642801/wife-of-almost-ten-years-is-emotionally-cheating-on-me/?ap=841

Here's the full explanation from a previous thread on why I like this question aside from my story specific context.

Well it's honestly extremely broad and very telling. It doesn't allow for everything to be relative. If you reject moral relativism, at least within your own life and sphere of influence, it's a very important question. It is a defense against hedonism.

Do you believe duty exists?

Let's say you don't. And doesn't everyone deserve to be happy?

If so, what's wrong with a little affair now and then? Not only did she not owe you faithfulness, she doesn't owe you recompense because there is no duty.

And anything you do, that you don't want to do, but do because you have a duty to do it, becomes an action with an impenetrable motive. A hedonist can't square why you would do something that hurts yourself or another if you do it out of duty. They will believe you are in the wrong.

Consider telling the OBS. Everyone on this forum will tell you you ought to do it. Why? There are many reasons, but I would argue the most valid reason is duty. The OBS is owed the information you have. You have a moral duty to do this, because you believe anyone with the same information ought to do the same. This is the categorical imperative and where Kant comes in.

The hedonist and the relationship builder will say you SHOULDN'T say that. Deception isn't inherently wrong and no one has a duty to behave honestly. "What is gained by the OBS knowing?", "The affair is over anyway, why destroy their family", "If you didn't tell them, they would never find out and be happy". If there is no duty for honesty, if no one is owed agency in their life, affairs can be justified. One step further, the continued deception and denial can be considered the appropriate path to maximize happiness.

So ask yourself. Ask your WW. Ask you MC. Does duty exist?

This0is0fine,

Thank you for this. Gives a lot to chew on and doesn't take into account my own cherry picking of duty then. I need to think on this. Thank you so much.

Aftermath and This, please read Lying by Jonathan Wallace in the Ethical Spectacle. Great article.
T/j, This, I love the idea of duty you write about. It takes the gray area out. It is the right thing to do. It leaves no detritus. It has burned the issue to ashes.
I have had nearly every psychology class there is available while in college, and I certainly dealt with issues like this in my job. The one overwhelming thing that came up over and over again is the idea that someone did not manage to grow up. Something retarded their emotional growth, and so they behave very much as a child would. The sign of being an adult is postponing pleasure. It’s planning for the future. In the case of adultery, then cheating and lying stomped on both of those. That’s what children do.
I have a question that comes up so often I feel it must be an issue in many relationships. Are either one of you sarcastic? Sarcasm is cruelty masquerading as humor. It shuts down real communication, and the person being made to feel small gets angrier and angrier. I don’t know if that’s a case in your household but it’s something to think about.
You said you stopped getting your needs met and so you shut down. All healthy relationships have good solid reciprocity…I give you get, you give I get. If you have a self-centered person they’re not going to give you what you need and you just give up. And it took me a long time to realize this is true because I let my husband and his sarcastic mouth come at me again and again. When I put a stop to it, things got much better in our marriage.

Aftermath, in my opinion, there is no one size fits all in dealing with infidelity in your marriage. Sure, there are things that work or don't work more often than not. But no one knows your marriage better than you, so you alone know if marriage counseling is right for you from the beginning.

When my sister went through this, they went to marriage counseling immediately because her husband was never going to go to IC. The choice was to get guidance where ever they could as quickly as possible. They happened to have a very good MC, who was able to see what contributed to his poor choices without letting him off the hook in any way for his choice to have an affair. In no way did she put the blame for the affair in any part on my sister, but she forced her to examine the dynamic of their relationship, which wasn't healthy for either of them. 'And my sister owned a big part of that. Over 20 years later they are happily married and their relationship is better than ever. When they do have their moments, they now know how to constructively deal with it.

So I guess at the risk of sounding like I'm hand holding and soothing you, I think you've handled this very decisively so far, and you know what you want to do to give your relationship the best shot going forward. My only suggestion, and that's all any of us can give you, is to put the same effort you have put into this situation thus far, into finding the very best counseling you can get. And if at anytime you feel it's not working, don't hesitate to keep looking until you find one that works for you.

I think sarcasm is fine depending on context, and do like sarcastic humor. It's a great tool for self-deprecating humor as well.

"I'm not sure if this is done. It might need a few more minutes." as I pull something smoking out of the oven that I forgot about for example.

I think that any contempt or criticism is the issue. Wrapping it in sarcasm doesn't change that.

Cooley, that's interesting I need to think of that more. I can see where I haven't postponed pleasure and viewed at the "right thing" being relative based on proximity or even ROI. So that's ringing for myself that I need to think more on. My thinking is I don't want to give her headspace. I don't want to value her with my time and mental energy and stay focused on the person who I feel owes me anything; my husband.

But what to I owe now that I'm pulled into this mess? Do I have ownership or responsibility though I have done nothing to warrant it?

Thank you. I will read the article.

Charity, thank you so much. I'm taking in the advice but I also know my own compass so need to own my decisions and pathway.

I am sarcastic but I don't think I do it at the expense of someone else. I also make inappropriate jokes like during the last few days. Just things pop up in my head and then I say them.

I grew up in a sarcastic family but I don't think I do it at anyone's expense or to hurt feelings.

He is not terribly sarcastic. He is critical and been very critical of me for years. I have communicated he has unrealistic expectations. The biggest has been life with two special needs kids. Things are done very differently and we are limited on what we can do with them. Coming to terms with the different roads we will need to take in life due to it is huge.

You did not cause his decision to cheat. Ever. He knew it was wrong and he did it anyway. Do not ever take that on as your fault.

My take on sarcasm is how it makes the other person feel. If it is lighthearted it passes. If there is a barb in it that is cruelty. I am not in your life to know whether this is even an issue. I know that my husband disguised his anger with "I was just joking" which got old in a hurry. It took me more years than I like to give as good as I took. He tries occasionally now but I stop it immediately.

Postponing pleasure has nearly disappeared in our lives. You only have to look online to see grownups having temper tantrums and it is not pretty. I will bet you are not those people. You are like the rest of us. It is there for the taking. And we often purchase it with a cc….which has to be paid.

I commend you for simply putting one foot in front of the other with the life you have to lead as a parent. You sound like a dedicated mom.