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I just got back from a trip (without my WW) to the town where my WWs affair took place 18 years ago, which sucks because thats also where my Mom and friends still live so its not like I can avoid it. Its always tough when Im there because Ill pass places that were significant to the affair, like the restaurant I know she took him to on his bday, or the dance hall they went to all the time which is right next door to the jewelry place I bought her wedding ring at. I often wonder what other things they did and what places they went to in this small town.

When I got home I slipped up and made a slightly snide remark. She had mentioned doing something with me in this small town that I have no recollection of doing with her. So I said something to the effect of "I dont remember going there with you, that must have been with your other boyfriend" which was met with a comment from her to the effect of "so we’re still doing that huh?". And then later in the evening after the kids were put to bed we got into it big time. The issue we often run into is that she typically gets very defensive when the topic of her affair is brought up and is not able to respond in a way that makes me feel validated and heard. The old "it was only four months" was hurled (a classic minimization she likes to use). She carries alot of shame so that is also part of it. Its like she gets intensely focused on herself and how Im making her feel about herself, rather than trying to be an empathetic listener. She asked me if I was really still struggling and I said I dont want to lie and I still think about your affair for at least an hour every day and its been that way for years now. Her response was that I probably just should have divorced her back then. I then started to walk away due to feeling totally invalidated and unheard. To her credit she does have the ability to offer chances at repair and she just extended her arms for a hug, and we ended up just holding eachother and things simmered down, but for her this was and is far from over.

Today, I see that she was on some web page that was titled "My Husband is Stuck in Victim Mindset and is Draining Me". I have literally not talked about her affair for a good four months prior to this one passive aggresive remark. As you will notice the title of the article is all centered on her and how my behavior is affecting her. She cant see that this is the very behavior that is making me feel like she doesnt get it. She cant hold a space for my trauma when she is so caught up in her own victim mindset and her own shame. This has been the same pattern for the past few years and has been why I have given up on talking about it, minus a few slip ups here and there.

Im frustrated because I really dont feel like thinking about her affair for hours each day. Its not fun. If there was some pill I could take to stop the thoughts, Id take it without hesitation. But its not something I feel I have any control over. My brain keeps reminding me for some reason, who knows why, but its as if she sees it as this intentional choice to be negative, to bring her down, and I feel very misunderstood and even attacked and villainized for it. In a way she also cant see the irony of the issue is herself having a victim mindset. Yes, I have told her this. She still doesnt see it any differently. Shes the victim of me being the victim of her affair and choosing negativity even though again, the affair hasnt been spoken of in months, and I wouldnt say Ive been in a negative mood during that time. Yes, I still ruminate alot, but I keep it in because it just never gets me anywhere and her responses are often so frustrsting that it can often lead me to the brink of shouting that I was a divorce. When I share that Im silently struggling, Im aparently choosing to be negative and to bring her down. Yes I probably shouldnt have made a passive aggresive remark, but it feels like a severe over reaction on her part to it.

What can be done here? Is she right? Am I really just choosing to be negative? I and be a victim? Or does it sound to you like she has an issue with shame that is causing her to react defensively and feel that she herself is the victim of an over-affected, negative mindset by choice BS?

Hi GainingClosure

Just read your bio. Ohhh that was painful to read! No wonder why you are still struggling after so many years.

I wish I could be of some amazing help. There seem to be several problems and good things.

She seems to have told you the whole truth, that's good.

The bad

It appears you did the "pick me" dance and with a quick guess that is humiliating?

No real remorse or consequences to her affair? Rugsweeping?

She lost the "one and only" status you rightfully are upset with?

If the AP wasn't a cheater and a rapist, she might have left you?

From my understanding you must also do some work to get out of the victim mindset but hopefully other on SI can be more helpful.

It is shocking how so many struggle, many years after an affair.

((hugs))

Organic

[This message edited by Organic2003 at 6:29 AM, Wednesday, July 19th]

Unfortunately, I don't have much advice, but can tell you, you aren't alone. What you describe could be my wife and me. She refuses to talk about her cheating and how it still affects me, almost four decades later. I re-read your bio and it is similar to my situation. All those years ago, a contractor at her workplace started love bombing her and convinced her to go out with him, knowing full well that she was in a committed relationship and engaged to me. It went back and forth from the POS to me, then him, then me. After a year and a half of (false) reconciliation wherein she had convinced me that she was no longer seeing him, I caught the bastard in her bed one morning after she left for work. I knew things weren't as they seemed, so I had gone to her apartment to see if there was any evidence of continued cheating. Honestly, I didn't expect to find THAT much evidence...

A few months later she left to be with the POS for a couple of years. Once her limerence wore off, and they reached the abandonment stage of what I strongly believe turned out to be a covert narcissistic relationship, she reached out to me, and we eventually got married.

Several years ago, when I decided to strengthen my marriage, unfortunately a lot of the hurt came back to me. I started trying to talk to her about it. We had basically rug-swept the affair all those years ago when we reunited. But she always ends up getting pissy toward me and accuses me of "are we going to do this again" kind of thinking when I attempt to ask questions or clarify something. My solution is writing about my feelings and making it clear how her attitude makes me feel that she is not only defending her affair but defending the POS AP as well. Plus, I have over a hundred questions written down that I plan to give her. She knows this and has agreed to answer them, but I guess we'll see. I've been in such a funk for a while that I can't seem to concentrate on finishing and organizing the narrative I've written, or get the questions revised in a way I feel comfortable presenting them to her.

So, brother I feel you! I wish I could tell you what to do. Maybe you could try my approach. I believe she will address the questions once presented as she won't be as overwhelmed and pressured when she can read and answer at her own pace. I guess time will tell. It would be great if I could just clear it all from my mind, but as only those like you and me who have been through this know, it is almost impossible. Being betrayed is a lifelong event...

[This message edited by Adolfo at 9:20 AM, Wednesday, July 19th]

What can be done here?

You mean how can you change her or change yourself so you can not have a problem in the R that you clearly have?

You and 95% of the other posters here would pay a lot for that solution. It does not exist.

I am speaking from experience and have asked (several) therapists the same question. They all say the same thing: you can't make people change. At this point, years out, this is who he is. Why are you expecting different?

In my view (and I am also talking to myself here), the bigger problem is you thinking or hoping or believing she will ever give you what you are looking for. Your unrealistic expectations keep forcing disappointment. This is who she is, faults and all. Is it enough? Can you accept her as she is? If yes, then find other ways to self soothe and validate your own feelings when hurting. Because it is not going to come from her. Period. If no, then divorce her and find better. Because she is NOT going to change; this is who she is, defensiveness and minimizing and all.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:12 AM, Wednesday, July 19th]

I want to say one other thing, from an armchair psychology perspective. In my view, it seems you have always had more the parent role in your M, the mature role. You are older than your WW, have always had your shit together. She has always struggled, then you swoop in and help her.

Many, many BS--once they look at their Ms honestly--have a similar dynamic. Not always, but many BS have been the logical, supportive, "have our shit together" partner, while the WS has always been more needy or insecure or lost.

Here's the thing, in my experience. When we take on the mature role and marry a drama queen or lost soul who needs us, we tend to leave our own emotional needs unattended. I mean, the needy partner validates (appreciates) us. And we love that. We (often) love feeling needed. But, to quote my IC, "Who takes care of us?" That's the spot you are in now. Been there, done that, bought every t-shirt there is.

What happened is...you developed a need. For probably one of the first times in your M, the script flipped and you need HER to be there for YOU when you trigger. But see, we chose people who do not have this skill. They are not us. They do not read our need and step up and give the comfort and validation and support naturally. It's just not in the DNA to selflessly do this like it's in ours. I'm not saying it is ok that they are selfish, but we chose these partners. They did not change. They've always been Takers. Before we were hurt, it was manageable. And now it's not.

So what has my IC had me work on? 1. Being less giving in my relationship and keeping more emotional energy for myself. 2. Getting more in touch with my own insecurities and vulnerabilities and working on those directly. Basically detaching from my spouse and attaching to myself. It has helped. I do feel much, much stronger and content. I haven't felt any signs of depression in a decade. My H still messes up and is not always the person I need, but it does not drag me to new lows like it used to.

Take what you need and leave the rest. Just thought I'd offer my very amateur opinion in case it sheds any light for you.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:46 AM, Wednesday, July 19th]

I have meltdowns when triggered. We did have some great MC, but it doesn’t change the fact that the A happened and its aftermath. Sometimes, if the trigger is severe enough, I feel utterly hopeless. But, I’m only about 4 1/2 years out from DDay. My path will cross with the OW at least once a week. I am able to ignore her, but when I get home it is all I can do to not go full out attack mode for my FWH part in my pain. And, like you, I know far too many details.

Maybe flip the script about your wife doing some research online about her own feelings on this. Or finding some kind of research that might be helpful to her. At least you’re not finding a WW going online looking for some kind of validation in the form of another affair. It seems like some sort of growth….a little bit. Carrying the load of being the wayward partner and choosing to stay to work on R is difficult. I know that when I’m down, FWH goes into a space where he knows that he’s the cause of it, knows he can’t change his past choices and has to dig deep to not feel just as hopeless. I’m grateful that he recognizes that I need his help to get me back into the present, back into the marriage that we’ve worked so hard to recover.

Defensiveness is natural when someone feels attacked. For a long time, if I brought up the A at all, my FWH would jump to being defensive. So, I’d gently call him on it. That’s even if I wasn’t being passive aggressive. There are moments when I just have to tell him that this trigger is bringing up feelings in me that I’m not enough, will never be enough. Because that is what shows up for me in those very deep, dark triggers. But, the truth is….if I wasn’t enough….he wouldn’t have chosen to do the work. It isn’t easy work being the WS and working toward R. I recognize that.

I don’t think you’re still being a victim. The A consumes more of my headspace than I would like too. We’re wired that way to protect ourselves. IC and MC have been life savers for us. You’re no victim. Working toward recovery as a BS is the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I’m grateful that I’m in fairly good health. I have a friend who is a cancer survivor. This feels like emotional cancer to me. Choosing to stay, if the relationship is worthy of it, is about the most badass thing you can do. You have to have serious self validation and worth to survive.

You don’t have a lot of control over triggers. They’re not a choice you make to be negative. They’re a physiological response. You CAN chose how you respond to them, but not whether or have them. You may always have them. Being betrayed is horribly traumatic. WHen you find that pill….let me know where I can buy one too. Take care.

Im frustrated because I really dont feel like thinking about her affair for hours each day. Its not fun. If there was some pill I could take to stop the thoughts, Id take it without hesitation. But its not something I feel I have any control over.

She doesn't have any control over it either. I think sometimes we look to the WS for solutions, but really, it's not possible for anyone else to manage our feelings.

I'll be honest with you, I had a really, really hard time with rumination. It seemed to me that something so powerful and so ubiquitous MUST have purpose. And I guess it does... in the beginning. Past a certain point though, we're just hurting ourselves. When our mind is made up and we've selected our course, we're just pouring salt into our own wounds. We're like a kid who pulls the wings off of flies, only we're the kid *and* we're also the fly.

If you've decided without reservation or doubt that you're where you want to be, then you have to ask yourself, what are you getting out of rumination and pain shopping? If you haven't made that decision yet, then maybe that's a place to start. Where is it that you want to be? You can't change the past. You can't change your fWW. You can only change yourself and your future.

I'm a bit of an outlier here in that I almost never have anything to say about my fWH's history of adultery IRL. For me, it really is history and it's got nothing to do with our day to day. I feel like I worked through everything I had to say about it already, and on the occasions it pops into my brain, I'm not going to bring it to him because that makes it relevant again and I don't want that any more than he does. When I walk the proverbial mile and imagine myself as a WS, I don't want my nose rubbed in the sins of my past. I want to believe that it really is possible to move on and move forward, that in my spouse's eyes, I really am redeemed. This is wholly different from not being able to talk about things if they're truly relevant, but if they're not, I'm certainly not going to MAKE them that way.

Part of the reason I selected R was that I wanted a future with my fWH. It's up to me to decide what that future looks like because it's MY future. I wouldn't have made this choice if I thought I'd never be able to put the past in perspective, and yeah, it sucked every minute, but I attacked every last bit of my pain until I had resolved it. For some triggers that meant EMDR, for others, just a firm reminder that I'm living today, that my fWS has already done everything in his power to correct his wayward mindset, and that whatever imperfections remain, the man he is today is who he is. It's MY choice as to whether that's enough of not.

You probably are taking on the Victim role - it's really hard to avoid it. The only way out of rumination that I've found is to ask myself what I'm feeling and then go directly to that feeling and resolve it.

When I was prone to ruminating, once I realized what the feeling/s was/were, I made a choice between sharing it and letting it go without sharing.

You've been experiencing this for a looong time. A good IC can help.

There IS a possibility that you continue to ruminate because your W is not holding up her end, but it's more likely, IMO, that you need to learn to get to the feelings. We really aren't taught when and how to solve emotional problems by letting them go.

I also recommend doing some reading on 'The Drama Triangle'. Steve Karpman's website is a good place to start, but he opens with wanting to sell readers his book, so the site doesn't meet SI's 'no solicitation' requirement. If you get past the sales stuff, over on the left are links to a lot of free content, including the original article in which he described DTs.

The free stuff is worth reading. I don't read the priced stuff.

Your wife is not suffering from shame… like many cheaters, she has found that throwing herself a pity party and saying that she doesn’t want to talk about the affair because it’s too painful is a great way to shut you down and avoid facing the pain she’s caused you and take responsibility for it.

When she says you’re taking the victim role, that is classic projection… she’s accusing you of the exact thing that she is doing. She’s very adept at manipulating you and making you second-guess yourself; instead of holding her accountable for her actions, you’re instead questioning whether your reaction is reasonable.

Do you see what’s happening here?

This post intrigued me because we have similar timelines, and I have struggled to gain closure after over 15 years. I read your bio and our stories are very similar, the personalities of our WWs sound similar. My comments about the A are met with defensiveness, with her being the victim.

Even reading your bio, it really sounds like your WW has been a passive spectator in this entire thing. You did the pick-me dance, you chased away the AP. WW didn’t have to make any decisions, and you seemed to win by default.

I didn’t see any indication that she chose you, fought for you. I don’t see any indication that your wife thinks you are a better person than AP. (It sounds like you know you are better, so that is great.) No wonder you are triggered; in the back of your mind, you are questioning if she values you.

This is really on her. She needs to take initiative, tell you how you are better, reverse your triggers, and basically put in effort to clarify that you are her better choice.

If she can’t do that, then it is time to move on.

I only had a brief failed reconciliation, so feel free to take my remarks with a pinch of salt. This was partly the reason though, that I didn’t try reconciliation after Dday2, that I wasn’t sure how I could ever forget about what my Ex did.

I think (and thought back then) that part of reconciliation is going to have to be that eventually the BS needs to genuinely get past the affair as well. I don’t mean immediately or even a few years but after many years, ruminating on it becomes counter-productive. If I couldn’t do that then breaking up is the better option.

Much as we might query the fact, Wayward Spouses are people as well. No matter how much remorse, guilt or even how much they do get it, how many people want to still be apologising for the terrible things they did 18 years ago? If I were in her shoes, after a certain point I would be thinking if apologising, being a presumably good (and faithful!) wife for 18 years since then, trying to respond well when you are feeling bad, makes no difference then what can I do that will? Is there anything she can do that will? All things take their toll on people eventually.

I guess what I am saying is that we also have to try to take a realistic and active role in our recovery. If you simply cannot get past it then have you considered separation/divorce? If you don’t want to consider separation/divorce then have you considered alternative ways to getting rid of the daily rumination's such as therapy or strategies for interrupting those thought patterns? Is it something you can look into?

GainingClosure,

I went back and read the details you wrote about the affair.

It seems the horrific facts about her cheating is at least one of the factors in your long term difficulties.

My OM1.2 was horrible as well, that my W fell for him and still has a great opinion of him makes me wary that my W could fall quickly for another con man, user, woman hater, like that.

There are levels of grossness to OMs.

How would you characterize your marriage post affair?

GainingClosure,

Forgot to ask what is your W opinion of the OM now?

So if this was a post in the AITA forum, I think I would come down on ESH. I appreciate my viewpoint may not be popular. To that, let me say that my views would be different if this was 2 years post-d-day rather than 18 years.

I'll start with her, because that's easy. OBVIOUSLY the minimization, defensiveness, lack of empathy and validation. All of it is a problem and antithetical to R, and more importantly, antithetical to a healthy, loving marriage.

But let's also talk about you. Obviously the town you visited is trigger for you. That makes a lot of sense to me. It's a place you associate with the A, and because you don't go there often enough, you have not had the opportunity (even with the passage of time) to reclaim the place as your own (ie. no exposure therapy). I do not fault you for triggering. I don't think that most BS would CHOOSE to trigger. BUT..... that was more than a slightly snide remark. It was a shitty comment that was intended to pick a fight. I know this because I've made that EXACT comment before in a similar situation (more than once, I should add ).

While we can't always expect a BS, even one who is 18 years out, to act perfectly while triggered, unless your spouse has the patience and self-control of a nun (my guess is that you are well aware that she does not), you cannot expect her to come to the table to have a productive, empathetic, understanding conversation with you if you come at her aggressively. Fight or flight is literally an automatic physiological reaction to a stressful stimuli. Just like your aggressive response was normal to the stress you was feeling, so was hers.

My husband and I used to have the same issue. I would get triggered and then start coming at him on the (verbal) attack and he would hear my criticisms and complaints and his lizard brain would kick into high gear and his adrenaline would start and as his brain registered an attack, he immediately become defensive. I would feel unheard and unsupported and my (very valid) feelings would be minimized, which would aggravate my trigger and anger, and he would feel shamed, bewildered, confused, and unjustly attacked. His reaction to my comments would make me upset, and the the argument would escalate and we'd both leave off feeling worse than we started. When we were able to cool off a bit, we'd be able to talk things through, much like it sounds like you did, but that didn't mean that the damage wasn't done. We recognized that it was an issue that was derailing productive communication in the A and worked on addressing it in MC.

"BUT IT WAS HER A THAT CAUSED MY TRIGGER IN THE FIRST PLACE!" I can almost hear you yelling from your screen. Yep. But are you sure she appreciated that in the moment? From your own words, it sounds like you're still thinking about the A more than she is, and you're often not bringing it up when you do. That is a pretty normal dynamic between BS and WS. Its something that used to drive me crazy in R, I felt like the A was ALWAYS on the forefront of my mind, and my husband would only think about it when I brought it up. It meant that when I triggered, he was often entirely oblivious to the fact that that was going on until I said something. Even though he wanted to be supportive of me and empathetic through my triggers, he often had no context for it. It meant that he would feel like my shitty comments were completely unwarranted attacks that were totally out of the blue, sometimes at a time when he felt like we were having a nice time together. I suspect that your wife was still reveling in what she thought was a nice family trip for you both, did not appreciate you were on edge, and found the comment particularly jarring and out of nowhere.

Certainly, in a perfect world, your wife (and my husband) would have enough empathy and awareness and a transfer of vigilance that she would have anticipated that this trip was likely a trigger for you, and been sensitive to your heightened emotions surrounding it. But we don't live in a perfect world, and if there is one thing that I've learned over time in a marriage, it is that if you do not communicate your thoughts, feelings, and expectations to your partner, you are not giving them a chance to meet them, and you are setting yourself up for disappointment. What worked for my husband and I was not having a goal of getting to a point of no longer talking about the A, the goal was to be able to get to a place where the conversations we did have were less explosive so we could reach a place of connection and empathy rather than frustration and further distance. In doing so, it actually created space for my triggers to become moments of connection between the two of us and eventually, probably because I knew I was safe, the frequency of those triggers waned significantly. It took TWO of us to get there.

My guess is that had you responded to her "so we're still doing that huh?" remark, more calmly and with something like, "You're right, that was a shitty thing to say. I'm sorry. I think being in that place, even after all these years, puts me on edge and causes my mind to go back to that time. I appreciate you are not that person anymore.", then she MAY have been able to respond in a way that was less defensive and more empathetic to your feelings. If you're anything like me, when you trigger, the best you can hope for is that your spouse will recognize the hurt you are feeling, acknowledge and apologize for their role in creating that hurt, and provide you with empathy and understanding and perhaps the space to talk about what is going on in your brain, and assure you that its not something you have to worry about anymore.

There is a kind of script for this in the pinned thread "Things Every WS should know" on the Wayward board that provides a bit of a script for the WS in how to handle a BS's triggers when they come. It may sound a little silly (or even artificial) to have a script, but my husband and I found to be incredibly useful for handling these kinds of moments for us. If you and your wife have not read the article recently, I encourage you to do so because the whole thing really is evergreen in its utility, but in short, the part that I am referencing is below (my emphasis added):

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, "I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again."

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect

moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most

comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

For me this script ABSOLUTELY worked to diffuse my feelings related to a particular trigger and build connection and togetherness between the two of us in moments that would otherwise feel lonely. I keep calling it a script, which makes it seem artificial, but obviously the words are different every time and are dependent on the circumstances. It became natural over time, and honestly, it's useful for any apology type situation even outside of affair triggers. I'll give you a real life example that my husband texted me on our 5 year antiversary. The context was that we'd both totally forgotten about the antiversary and it occurred to me when I saw the date towards the end of the day while we were both at work. I wasn't particularly triggered in the moment but it felt important I texted him to remind him. His response:

Ugh... f*ck. I'm so sorry honey. I love you so much. How are you feeling? Sometimes I can't believe I did that. I mean, I know I did, I am just ashamed to have caused you that much pain. Thank you so much for sticking with me. I didn't deserve that and I am so, so grateful for you and our family.

It's hard to be mad at that right? He had no idea I wasn't triggered in the moment (and called to make sure when I didn't respond immediately), but his message basically worked to diffuse any worked-up-edness that the significance of that date may have brought. We ended up having a nice night, and I didn't feel the need to mention it again. If I had decided to hold it in and then blown up at him that evening (or the next day) out of nowhere with some passive aggressive dig, I'm sure it would not have gone quite the same way.

I appreciate that all of this working hinges on a WS that is willing to own her own shit and wants to improve the marriage. I don't know your story well enough to know if that's the case. The fact that your wife was researching articles after this incident however suggests to me that she appreciates that there is room for improvement. I encourage you to talk to her about this now CALMLY and tell her you WANT to be able to improve things between the two of you and that you appreciate that there is work for you to do too. If you can both drop the term "victim mindset" I imagine that could help too - no one likes an accusation. Maybe ask her to talk to you about it in MC. I'm going to venture that this style of argumentation between the two of you extends beyond just the A, and that the A is just a pressure point.

Finally, are you really still thinking about the A for hours a day? If so, was this just while you were visiting this trigger city or is it all the time? If it's the latter (and I say this gently), I wonder if maybe it's time for you to head back to IC - it seems like maybe something isn't working.

Best of luck to you gainingclosure, I hope you do.

OMG....I'm sharing this with my FWH.

Had a bit of similar situation lately. I'm getting triggered a LOT. And, he's in "well, if you just saw that I'm doing the dishes and taking you places....just remember that....and all will be well....I'm HERE, aren't I?" mode. WHEN I can get him to engage with me sincerely and with an emotional connection....damn....it's like a tall glass of ice water after walking in the desert.

Even if I don't go into attack mode and, lawd knows I did for awhile, being now in 4 1/2 years post DDay....him seeing me triggered and upset over this, puts him into shame and he retreats. HARD.

Thank you! How'd I miss this before??

And to gainingclosure....hang in there.

Thank you! How'd I miss this before??

I’m glad it was something you found useful! I’m sure you read it before but were focused on something else at the time and it wasn’t as relevant. I’m always finding new nuggets of gold on subsequent reads.

And yes, fights about fights about the affair are the worst (and so counterproductive).

She doesn't have any control over it either. I think sometimes we look to the WS for solutions, but really, it's not possible for anyone else to manage our feelings.

I'll be honest with you, I had a really, really hard time with rumination. It seemed to me that something so powerful and so ubiquitous MUST have purpose. And I guess it does... in the beginning. Past a certain point though, we're just hurting ourselves. When our mind is made up and we've selected our course, we're just pouring salt into our own wounds. We're like a kid who pulls the wings off of flies, only we're the kid *and* we're also the fly.

This!!!

Still early in the process myself but this has been my thought process all week. I read something in my couples recovery book a few days ago that said "to accept the R process is to take on the risk of being cheated on again and that your partner is a flawed person who will continue to make mistakes."

We as BS are going to have triggers. But its important to talk about those triggers in a healthy way ASAP. I think the fact that you had so much bottled up inside from being in a setting where you were cheated on made your fight a lot worse than it had to be, and probably put your WW in a position that brought out her flawed communication habits.

The expectation for our partner to meet every need and insecurity we have ASAP is unreasonable, especially if we don't talk about it. WS are clearly more flawed then BS and it will take them more time to build themselves up to be a healthy partner. And when they don't meet expectations, it makes our minds go to a dark place and obsess over things that only hurt us. But talking about our insecurities, disappointments and triggers with the WS helps alleviate that mind obsession.

Personally what has helped me lately, and may help your wife, is communicating in a way that doesn't put her on the defensive immediately when discussing sensitive topics. I am trying my best to remember to open up the conversation with an "I am feeling" or "It seems to me like" and making sure that I justify why I am feeling that way as much as possible. Then at the end of it, if I need a specific type of response from my WW, I make sure to relay that (i.e. I need to be comforted, reassured, know your thoughts ect...).

On top of that, I am keeping my expectations of my WW's ability to meet my demands low. Any change for her, outside of her default habits, is going to be a long process, but as long as she continues to try I am happy.

[This message edited by Tav3n at 4:22 PM, Friday, July 21st]

Hey GC. Just read your bio. Ouch! Sorry that you are still struggling. It sounds like you rugswept and your FWW didn't actually suffer any consequences for her choices. It may be that the injustice of this has stayed with you.

Has she done any reading on how her A has affected you? Has she shown any real compassion or empathy? I don't think this is a "you" problem in the sense that it has been a decade, get over it. I think the original A was never properly addressed and you have never healed.

What can be done here? Is she right? Am I really just choosing to be negative? I and be a victim? Or does it sound to you like she has an issue with shame that is causing her to react defensively and feel that she herself is the victim of an over-affected, negative mindset by choice BS?

I’m a little over 9 years out. Been where you are and it’s a very crappy place to be.
For me it came down to this. At some point around year 3-4 my wife no longer wanted to talk about it. I was in a loop. Ruminating. She simply said she wasn’t going to talk about it anymore. And she didn’t. She would talk about my feelings or hers but no more affair detail talk. I hated her for this. And still have resentment over it today. But I learned this important lesson about my spouse. She will never heal me. I heal me. So I learned acceptance not forgiveness. For that was not in me. I am not a victim but the master of my destiny. She can come for the ride or not. Because I will survive without her. You are not the same after infidelity. Accepting that I believe helps. And coming to the realization that the person who betrayed you is never going to be able to compensate you for thier betrayal. You just feel differently about them. You need time to adjust to your new reality. A reality you did not create but was given to you by a really selfish spouse that you married. I found when I saw my wife for what she was and not for what I thought she was that helped me. As for the magic pill. Every betrayed spouse on here would have sold thier soul to have been given a magic pill to stop the infidelity mental onslaught. The hours we spent looking could have easily built the great wall of china. It does not exist. Only in you and your journey will you find peace with it. And that is probably the hardest thing I had to accept.

Emergent had some great points.

You were triggered by your visit to that town. Then, a not so "passive" but fairly aggressive remark to your wife resulted in her being angry and defensive.

18 years is a long time, and you said you think about her affair at least an hour a day. I’m thinking this is problematic for you, that it isn’t healthy, and that IC should be considered to deal with whatever is leading to this level of ongoing rumination. I’m sure you don’t want to do that every day, it can’t feel good. But we know that these things do serve some kind of purpose or we wouldn’t do them. Counseling can help you get to understanding that.

If you could ask her, what would your questions be? Have you already asked those questions, and didn’t get an answer, or didn’t believe the answers, or were the answers not detailed enough?

Do you think MC would bring about a change you desire?

Or, are you satisfied with the status quo, rumination pattern, and passive-aggressive interactions?

What do you want out of the marriage going forward?