SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

TWD, I took some time to ruminate on your response which helped me get more insight as to your perspective and thought processes. So, thank you for that. First this:

What we're doing is trying to figure out how to live with my betrayal in the best way. I believe there will always be some pain there and regrets about how we handled our life together through the years. I'm responsible for the lion's share of problems we've had. I've never thought of it as reconciliation, though. I think of it as trying to understand my choices and learning to be empathetic. Some people talk about the marriage being over because of an affair and then with reconciliation, beginning anew.

I don't see it that way. I see it as living with my choices and trying to understand myself and to help my BS understand. Of course this requires me to understand his pain and point of view.

Ive bolded the part of your response that I want to begin with. Quick question before I do though, does your BH agree with you that the marriage was not ended/severed by your two year betrayal and therefore reconciliation and beginning anew were never needed????? Id be very interested in his response to that and whether or not he agrees.

Full disclosure, I am one of those people that believes that infidelity is a marriage ending event. Not legally so necessarily, but certainly in spirit and intent (read my signature line quoted by another BH). Ill take it further. Certainly the marriage vows are broken by infidelity, but it goes much much deeper than that imo. It is a severing of the pair bond. The pair bond predates vows, marriage, engagement. Its the ethereal linkage of souls that attracted you to each other in the first place. That brought you to the point of being exclusive to one another (assuming you were pre engagement and marriage). It was a drawing to each other that engendered faithfulness, loyalty and committment. You became that "special someone" to each other. Engagement and marriage are the public recongnition of that mutually agreed upon and recognized pair bond (some call it a soul-ties or soul-mates) sealed with vows that are hopefully backed by love and personal integrity ensuring marital exclusivity as to relational and sexual intimacy (hows that for a run on sentence?).

When one partner embarks in the betrayal of infidelity, they have, by the very nature of their actions, broken their vows and severed the pair bond. When the betrayed partner becomes aware of that marital treason and resulting pair bond severing, it initiates a pain in them the likes of which they have never, ever, known, even if they are no stranger to trauma (I can attest).

That said, I do believe that if a couple is to be successful in reconnecting post infidelity, a tacit recognition and of the scope of the destruction must be acknowledged by both, particularly by the betraying spouse and that the only way back is via reconciliation and the establishing of a new bond, new relationship, & new committment possibly sealed with a recommittment ceremony.

Gently and respectfully. I ask you to consider the possibility that the old marriage was indeed assassinated by the betrayal, that the first bond was severed, that a brand new connection has to be forged. That the lack of recognition of this has and will severely retard your progress due, in part, to the fact that the lack of this recognition is a form of minimization/rug-sweeping.

Imo, what I have laid out is the start of what youve desribed here,

"I see it as living with my choices and trying to understand myself and to help my BS understand. Of course this requires me to understand his pain and point of view."

I affirm this:

I've had that exact thought, but I'm getting better at bringing up affair issues myself. My BS has told me that it's painful for him to ask questions and bring up the affair, although he does do it.

Glad youve been proactive here as to initiating discussion and yes, I feel your BH's pain and lets remember, his latest Dday was your 50th.

Finally, to this,

Yes, my BS relates to this very much, he wishes we'd gone through what we're going through now all those years ago. It sounds like you've made great progress in recent years. Thanks for your help.

Again, I ask you to consider the supposition I have put forth in tbe above. I believe that open recognition is, in and of itself, one of the most empathetic things that you could do and say to your BH. This would be true and full acceptance.

I have thankfully made much progress due to a lot of hard work, excellent therapy, and the love and committment of a wonderful woman who is also the survivor of a brutal betrayal. I owe a lot to others.

I hope you can follow my reasoning. Let me know if youd like me to clarify anything.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 12:46 PM, Monday, September 4th]

I was very willing to blame him for not getting over it. Maybe your WH thought this way, too.

My WH fully admits he did this and I know it to be true as back in the day he even said it - when he wasn't willing/able to listen enough to even try to understand what all of this did to me. He now realizes that I will never ever be "over" the infidelity. Not that I am not past the A and the AP and all the horseshit that came with it - but that I am changed by it, and that change is largely permanent. The brilliant thing about the 3-4 years post-A WH has been in IC is that he now not only is willing/able to listen/try to understand, but he actually wants to. I used to be the initiator of anything infidelity related (which now is more along the lines of issues I have as opposed to fact finding and rehashing the A soles for the purpose of understanding the past - which, thankfully, I know all I need to know so I have no desire to do that), but now, oftentimes he is, and that is a welcome change. I am visiting him right now and last night I told him I was still on this site. He didn't realize that, but wanted to know why, and I told him part of it (a large part of it) is to try to help others who have been in my shoes, and to the extent I can, in his shoes too. And we came to talking about this post specifically, and how it relates to my own feelings and his.

It actually doesn't pain me to talk about any of this anymore - which is miraculous, but I also realize that it is at least in part because of the work WH has done. Talking to him is indeed "safe" for me now. I certainly haven't forgotten about how I felt then, but it's really almost a great feeling to know that I - we - are stronger now then we were before, even in our tenuous situation as far as where he and I are as a couple. We actually talk - and equally importantly - listen. But I think DT's discussion of the destruction of the marriage is food for thought as it is precisely how I feel as well. Whatever WH and I have now is new - in that our old relationship was maimed beyond recognition. While some of that shared past still exists, it like childhood memories in a way - I am that same person who was a child, but I am decidedly different now - the same person in name only almost.

Therefore I also agree with this:

That said, I do believe that if a couple is to be successful in reconnecting post infidelity, a tacit recognition of the scope of the desctruction must be recognized by both, particularly by the betraying spouse and that the only way back is via reconciliation and the establishing of a new bond, new relationship

. . .

Gently and respectfully. I ask you to consider the possibility that the old marriage was indeed assassinated by the betrayal, that the first bond was severed, that a brand new connection has to be forged. That the lack of recognition of this has and will severely retard your progress due, in part, to the fact that the lack of this recognition is a form of minimization/rug-sweeping.

its worth considering that your BS also see your marriage like this. It's food for thought for sure.

cissie,

Thanks your response. I should start a thread of my own. I tried in General, but got only one reply.

Keep trying. I've sometimes had trouble getting a response, but this forum "Wayward" I find to be very helpful. Yes, I think you should start your own thread.

I have done a lie detector test. He didn't accept it.

I haven't because neither my BS or I believe in their accuracy.

Thanks to everyone for the houghtful posts. I wish I could express myself so well.

Yes, I feel the same, but I can see this is helping me and my BS, so I keep trying.

This has given me a new insight, but unfortunately it is unlikely to change anything given the situation.

We need to keep trying to get better. For me, a big issue has been passivity. I've had to learn to speak up and it's been a hard climb. I hope things get better for you soon.

DobleTraicion you asked:

Quick question before I do though, does your BH agree with you that the marriage was not ended/severed by your two year betrayal and therefore reconciliation and beginning anew were never needed????? Id be very interested in his response to that and whether or not he agrees.

He vehemently disagrees with me and strongly agrees with you. I'm glad I'm here to discuss these things, although it makes me very emotional. As I believe I mentioned before, our final D-Day was on our 50th anniversary. Since I stopped hiding things then, I thought we could begin R, but I have taught him to distrust and disrespect me. I think we've made progress since then, but he's not confident that he can trust my word.

Here is some background information: When I first told him that I'd had intercourse with another man, it was 7 months after the day I did it. I told him I hadn't seen AP since that day. BS thought I wasn't too bright (naive), thought that AP forced himself upon me, and believed I never saw him again. He says that, at the time and with these beliefs, he could imagine doing what I described himself.

The truth is that I saw AP 2 - 3 times a week during that 7 months before I told him that I had sex with AP. During that time, I visited him at his workplace...now I see that I was stalking him.

I let him go to the AP's workplace and confront him while he was believing the lies I told him about the affair. It was dangerous and cowardly of me.

I'll continue later. You've given me lots to consider.

SadWife53,

Thanks for your post.

1. He wished desperately he could go back in time

Yes, and make the right choices, but what we WW's need to do is change the faulty thinking and personality problems that we have that we use to make those bad choices to begin with.

2. Now that he’s in his right mind, he can’t believe he was ever so foolish.

This, too. We hurt ourselves as well.

3. I didn’t deserve any of it.

That's for sure. I'm sorry you had to suffer for a cheater's poor decisions.

ThisIsSoLonely, I'm thinking about what you said:

He now realizes that I will never ever be "over" the infidelity. Not that I am not past the A and the AP and all the horseshit that came with it - but that I am changed by it, and that change is largely permanent.

I certainly think that I'm going through a process that will never be over. I think my actions and especially my lying can never be forgiven. I'm searching for a way of gaining trust back. I think writing here is my best help for now.

It actually doesn't pain me to talk about any of this anymore - which is miraculous, but I also realize that it is at least in part because of the work WH has done. Talking to him is indeed "safe" for me now. I certainly haven't forgotten about how I felt then, but it's really almost a great feeling to know that I - we - are stronger now then we were before, even in our tenuous situation as far as where he and I are as a couple. We actually talk - and equally importantly - listen.

I'm glad you said this. I long to have meaningful conversations with my BS where we can agree with each other and disagree, too, and even solve problems. I have been conflict avoidant to the point where I didn't tell him if I noticed something needed fixing, like on the car. Now, I don't avoid it. I think it was very childish of me to hold back in that way. There's a connection between conflict avoidance and lying.

But I think DT's discussion of the destruction of the marriage is food for thought as it is precisely how I feel as well.

Yes, I know that I destroyed the marriage and I know it needs rebuilding. I have to think about it more. I don't want to minimize the impact my deceptions have had on our life.

TWD, I may have missed it, but may I ask how long ago your 50th anniversary was?

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 5:28 PM, Sunday, September 3rd]

DobleTraicion,
Almost 10.

DobleTraicion,

Almost 10.

Thank you for clarifying. So the last Dday was almost 10 years ago, correct? You two obviously got together pretty young as did my first wife and I.

Well, after reading your responses, your bio, and some of your other posts I have a rudimentary understanding of the scope of the betrayal along with the decades of trickle truth that honestly, had to be almost equally painful for your BH. So, I know a bit about where you've been on this oft painful road you've traveled and I have some more thoughts on this, but before I expound, let me ask you and your BH by proxy, what are your highest hopes for yourself, your BH and your relationship in the time you have left together? IF you let yourself dream in this regard, what would that dream be? What does it look like? I know youve said this:

What we're doing is trying to figure out how to live with my betrayal in the best way

But can you expound further? I am trying to get a sense from both of you of, with all things realistically considered, what now is your highest ideal? Where do you want to go? If I know where you want to head, I will know better how to direct my experienced input.

Please excuse the following personal indulgence.

My favorite quote about hope is frome one of my most admired films, The Shawshank Redemption, where Andy writes to Red, "Remember, Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies." We know his hope, his dream, was Zihuatanejo.

What now is your (plural) Zihuatanejo?

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 4:27 PM, Monday, September 4th]

Wait! Last dday was 10 years ago?? I thought it was 3 years ago. My posts were made based on this mistaken assumption. I take back some of things I said. Sorry.

DobleTraicion, you ask:

Let me ask you and your BH by proxy, what are your highest hopes for yourself, your BH and your relationship in the time you have left together? IF you let yourself dream in this regard, what would that dream be? What does it look like?

For me,I would like to be a better person, that is, more assertive (I'm always working on this), less conflict avoidant (this too), more self-actualizing. I've always tended to be a follower and, since my BS has lots of ideas of good and fun things to do, I love to be a part of that. I would like to be more able to initiate things to do myself.

For our relationship, I want to continue to be honest, to understand why I do what I do and have done, to be heard and have good conversations.

I want to live with my BS and continue to do the things we enjoy together: taking walks, eating meals together, travel, seeing family and friends, reading, watching sports and movies...lots of things. I want to live with him until I die.

I would have more expansive goals, if I wasn't so old!

For him, most importantly, he wants to understand why I betrayed him and lied to him for so many years so that he can move towards acceptance and forgiveness. In our final years together, he wants to continue enjoying the things we like to do together, things I've listed above.

Lurkingsoul12, you said,

Wait! Last dday was 10 years ago?? I thought it was 3 years ago. My posts were made based on this mistaken assumption. I take back some of things I said. Sorry.

No worries. It's all quite confusing and my writing isn't always clear.

For me,I would like to be a better person, that is, more assertive (I'm always working on this), less conflict avoidant (this too), more self-actualizing. I've always tended to be a follower and, since my BS has lots of ideas of good and fun things to do, I love to be a part of that. I would like to be more able to initiate things to do myself.

For our relationship, I want to continue to be honest, to understand why I do what I do and have done, to be heard and have good conversations.

I want to live with my BS and continue to do the things we enjoy together: taking walks, eating meals together, travel, seeing family and friends, reading, watching sports and movies...lots of things. I want to live with him until I die.

I would have more expansive goals, if I wasn't so old!

For him, most importantly, he wants to understand why I betrayed him and lied to him for so many years so that he can move towards acceptance and forgiveness. In our final years together, he wants to continue enjoying the things we like to do together, things I've listed above.

TWD, thanks for sharing your vision and highest hopes for the future. By and large, a worthy vision for this final chapter imo. Wholesome. Positive. A "riding off into the sunset toegether" kind of thing. I hope much of this if not all can be reached by and for you both. I now know where you hope to go and Ill assume your BH feels similarly unless you correct that assumption. I am also keeping in mind this comment:

What we're doing is trying to figure out how to live with my betrayal in the best way.

Now to what I believe are blockers/impediments to achieving this vision:

The first is one you've already laid out and it is formidable:

He vehemently disagrees with me and strongly agrees with you. I'm glad I'm here to discuss these things, although it makes me very emotional. As I believe I mentioned before, our final D-Day was on our 50th anniversary. Since I stopped hiding things then, I thought we could begin R, but I have taught him to distrust and disrespect me. I think we've made progress since then, but he's not confident that he can trust my word.

The context here was that you were responding to this question:

Does your BH agree with you that the marriage was not ended/severed by your two year betrayal and therefore reconciliation and beginning anew were never needed?????

In order to move forward into your mutually held vision for the future, there must be a "meeting of the minds" on this point. Has there been any movement on your position? Can you now affirm that the betrayal, deceit, and decades of trickle truth are basically seen as marital scorched earth by your BH? Gently but firmly, when you clarified further the immensity of the trauma inflicted on your BH with this:

Here is some background information: When I first told him that I'd had intercourse with another man, it was 7 months after the day I did it. I told him I hadn't seen AP since that day. BS thought I wasn't too bright (naive), thought that AP forced himself upon me, and believed I never saw him again. He says that, at the time and with these beliefs, he could imagine doing what I described himself.

The truth is that I saw AP 2 - 3 times a week during that 7 months before I told him that I had sex with AP. During that time, I visited him at his workplace...now I see that I was stalking him.

I let him go to the AP's workplace and confront him while he was believing the lies I told him about the affair. It was dangerous and cowardly of me.

I'll continue later. You've given me lots to consider.

I saw an inferno. I like word pictures. They act as bridges for truth, understanding and wisdom. I see the fact that you told your BH tbat you only met with your AP once in 7 months when in fact it was 2-3 times per week for 7 months, so somewhere between 50-80 times, like a raging forrest fire. I used to live in a place surrounded by national forrest. Beautiful but mercurial. Every summer there would be fire season and when there were large fires, they could consume thousands of acres and that scar could remain on the land for decades. Ever so slowly though, new growth would appear and recovery would progress over many years. Your betrayal was that fire. It laid waste to your old marriage. Every trickle truth was a new fire that burned up the new growth of recovery. I am not trying to trigger shame, just lay out the facts, hopefully deepen understanding and affirm your BH's perception. Can you now accept his perception? Will you meet him at his pain point and mourn together the death of the old marriage? As a former betrayed, I believe this is what he needs. I also believe it is what you need. So you can both heal. So you can not just survive, but thrive in these remaining years.

Meet him there with wholehearted acknowledgement, and I believe good things, maybe even great things can happen.

From what youve shared, i believe this to be the largest impediment to progressing into your vision.

If there are more from your pov, please feel free to share.

Two final thoughts on this. I challenge you to embrace both radical ownership and radical transparency. The likes of which youve never lived before.

Again, let me illustrate. As to radical ownership, I referenced a BH that still triggered muliple times a year, some 30+ years later. His WW was so in tune to this that she still holds his hands and tells him what he needs to hear and, just as importantly, what she needs to say. That it was all her. Her immature and toxic need to attention and validation. Just affirmation of the truth yet again until he breaths deep and the storm calms in his soul. Radical ownership.

Radical transparency relies on communication. There is a couple I know of that are solidly in R and she, the wayward, has embraced this BUT she is not as good a verbal communicator as she is at communicating in written form. Shes a processor, like me. Her BH knows this about her and understands. When they get into intense duscussions about her marital treason, she listens and jots notes. She carries a little notebook with her for that purpose. He is fine with this as he knows she is engaged and reinforces this by asking insightful questions without defensiveness. He knows that in the next day or two, he will recive a hand written letter, or card, or an email, where she affirms his feelings and describes her thoughts and feelings on the same topic. This of course leads to more in depth discussions and they hold nothing back. They challenge each other to be better. Shoot, they challenge me to be better.

On that note, if there is yet ANYTHING that yet needs to be disclosed to him, now is the time. Sweep out those corners of your mind again and disclose any and all. Radical transparency. Like a freshly washed window brightly lit by a sunny day. Just for him.

So, radical ownership. Radical transparency. I hope you can discuss this with your BH and embrace this like never before in your time remaining. I believe that this is the best way to move forward.

I look forward to your thoughts.

ETA: Radical ownership and transparency will naturally address the concerns of your BH that you described in his vision for the future.

ETA2: Remember the old addage: You cannot grab hold until you fully let go.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 3:15 PM, Tuesday, September 5th]

Being older also, I have a different take on this. Sure he probably doesn’t feel like he has the whole story, but with what you disclosed to him, although it took far too long, and the lying was painful, my guess is he feels he probably knows enough. Judging by your age and the amount of time you spend together, it is doubtful that he feels like you are likely to cheat again.

If it’s truly a matter of trust, was there any other instances since you disclosed to him where he might suspect that you had an another affair? A neighbor you were too close with, or a kids coach that you spent too much time with? Someone you worked with that he might have felt you might have cheated with? This could be where the trust issues are coming from.

More likely however, it’s not so much a matter of trust, but just reflecting on his life and what could have been. I’m not quite as old, but I still look back on my choices and wonder what if. What if I never decided to renovate our house and she never would have met her AP. What if I were to forgive her and was able to keep my family. The list can be endless.

It might just be he is reflecting on how his life would have different if you hadn’t cheated so early and did he do the right thing by staying. He frankly knows that at this point his options are limited. He isn’t going to leave after 60 years of marriage. He is probably pretty content with you now, but he still hurts over this and his expression of not trusting you is a manifestation of that hurt.

The best thing you can do is comfort him and help him come to the conclusion that if he looks at the totality of your life together, the good outweighs the bad that took place so long ago. Even still, that is the most painful part of infidelity. You may be able to move past it, but it will always be a black mark in the marriage.

WaitedWayTooLong... Excellent post. You put into words what I wanted to say when I first posted to ThatWillDo on this thread, but I couldn't find the right words.

We have all heard that a lifetime of trust can be totally destroyed in just a few moments. You have had many years to rebuild that trust, and hopefully you two have many more years together for you to continue to build his trust in you.

DT, I think I'm in sensory overload right now. I appreciate your thoughts and will respond in the next few days. You've given me so much to think about. My BS and I have been talking a lot the last few days and that's the most important thing.

waited way too long,

According to my BS, you hit the nail on the head with your post.

Being older also, I have a different take on this. Sure he probably doesn’t feel like he has the whole story, but with what you disclosed to him, although it took far too long, and the lying was painful, my guess is he feels he probably knows enough. Judging by your age and the amount of time you spend together, it is doubtful that he feels like you are likely to cheat again.

I agree.

If it’s truly a matter of trust, was there any other instances since you disclosed to him where he might suspect that you had an another affair? A neighbor you were too close with, or a kids coach that you spent too much time with? Someone you worked with that he might have felt you might have cheated with? This could be where the trust issues are coming from.

Yes, I'll give an example here. I spent some weeks at a school in another country to learn the language. There was a man there also taking classes who happened to swim at the neighborhood pool at home where I swam laps regularly. I recognized him and commented on the coincidence. I saw him a few times while at the school, but we had no inappropriate interactions. I had a roommate there who had sex with him (not at the house we were staying in) the last night we were there. My BS has wondered if I had something going with him. I didn't, but with my past, I can understand why he wonders. By the way, I had never spoken to him at the pool or anyplace before the summer classes. There are other examples, some where I was making poor choices.

More likely however, it’s not so much a matter of trust, but just reflecting on his life and what could have been. I’m not quite as old, but I still look back on my choices and wonder what if. What if I never decided to renovate our house and she never would have met her AP. What if I were to forgive her and was able to keep my family. The list can be endless.

Yes, my BS describes these same kinds of questions.

It might just be he is reflecting on how his life would have different if you hadn’t cheated so early and did he do the right thing by staying. He frankly knows that at this point his options are limited. He isn’t going to leave after 60 years of marriage. He is probably pretty content with you now, but he still hurts over this and his expression of not trusting you is a manifestation of that hurt.

Well said.

The best thing you can do is comfort him and help him come to the conclusion that if he looks at the totality of your life together, the good outweighs the bad that took place so long ago. Even still, that is the most painful part of infidelity. You may be able to move past it, but it will always be a black mark in the marriage.

At times,I think the good outweighs the bad, but the affair and the thought processes I used to justify my behavior has tainted everything. Sometimes it's hard to be positive.

I'd like to thank you for your thinking. I imagine that it's painful to write on a thread of someone who has hurt her spouse in the same way your x-wife hurt you.

lrpprl,

We have all heard that a lifetime of trust can be totally destroyed in just a few moments. You have had many years to rebuild that trust, and hopefully you two have many more years together for you to continue to build his trust in you.

Thank you, I still get defensive at times and that is destructive to our rebuilding. It's a process and very hard to change personality defects that have been with me my whole life.

DT, I think I'm in sensory overload right now. I appreciate your thoughts and will respond in the next few days. You've given me so much to think about. My BS and I have been talking a lot the last few days and that's the most important thing.

Understood. I threw a lot at you conceptually. Chew on it at your own pace. Some of it may be a bridge too far or just non-actionable atm. There is also a saying here that Ive learned to appreciate which is to take what you need/want and leave the rest.

Peace, strength, and continued healing to you both.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 4:54 AM, Thursday, September 7th]

DT, you were asking about whether or not I agree that I destroyed the marriage and I can say that I'm convinced now that I did and that it needs rebuilding.

In order to move forward into your mutually held vision for the future, there must be a "meeting of the minds" on this point. Has there been any movement on your position?

This morning my BS talked to me about how anger is a motivator...different subject, in a way. I was thinking about that and how BS's saying that if there was no trust, there was no love. It made me really sad to hear him say that, but it also made me mad (at myself). It provided the impetus to post here and has helped us to communicate with each other in a more useful way.

Now I want to talk about when I first confessed to BS about the affair. It was 7 months after I'd had sex with AP. During that 7 month period, we never met alone. I visited him at his workplace. On the day I confessed to my BS, I started out with a lie that I was attacked in a parking lot when I left work after dark by 2 men I didn't know. Of course my BS had lots of questions...Did I call the police? Did they hurt me? etc. After lying for some time, I broke down and told my BS that I'd had sex with someone 7 months ago and hadn't seen him since. I then told him that AP had forced his way into our home uninvited and molested me. That was a lie.

What really happened that day was that AP showed up unannounced. I welcomed him in. I lead him into the front room about half way to the room where we'd had sex before. We began making out. It got too hot and heavy for me and I told him I couldn't continue.
He turned away from me and left (angry, I think). That visit by him scared me because I had promised myself that I wouldn't have sex with him again and I was afraid that he would come whenever he felt like it and I would get caught.

So my confession to my BS was not because I thought he should know, it was because I was afraid he would find out on his own. Also, at that point, I felt like I needed help.

My BS went to confront AP a few days later believing that I hadn't seen him for months and believing that he had attacked me. In other words, he was trying to defend me. BH found out on his own about 5 months later that I had been seeing AP regularly the 7 months prior to his unannounced visit.

By falsely claiming that my last meeting with AP was a sexual assault, I endangered both of their lives. It was horrible behavior on my part and it makes me sick to my stomach to write about it, but it's really helping me. Again, thanks so much for your help. I'll comment more on your questions with time.