SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

That is some good work there wonday in your self reflection, and I think it warrants you reading over what you wrote.
On your side, you understand some of the work you need to do to be at your best.
On her side, you seem to have a firm understanding of what you need from her to be in a relationship.

The question is though - is she doing any of that? Is she capable of doing that?

Only she can do her part. If she's unremorseful that's not going to happen, no matter how hard you try to set boundaries, try to win her into the marriage, etc.
You can only control your choices.
And the choice that stands in front of you right now is - are you willing to accept the current situation?

If yes, well... that's your choice if you truly feel that way.
If you don't have an answer at the moment, that's okay, but you still need to think about this.
If no, then you have to commit to moving forward and not accepting a marriage with lying, manipulation, etc. Your wife is free to join you, but you're not going to let her hold you back from your own wellbeing and fulfilling relationships. You can only tell her what you need - she has to do the work.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the 180, but you might find it helpful for recentering and gaining clarity:
https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/understanding-the-180/
https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/the-simplified-180/

I'm not trying to sway you one way or another. I'm just trying to help you walk through processing all this so that you can be confident with the path you choose. But I am trying to help you to understand that you have rights, that your needs and values are valid, that you deserve respect in a relationship, and that you deserve your own self respect.

Hi Hellfire,

Thank you for your reply.

Reading your reply hurts like a smack across the face. But yet this is the reality of my situation. I really seem helpless and pathetic. I need to really process this.

Why do I want the reconciliation? Is it fear of being alone, fear of being poor again, anxiety regarding having to tell family and friends (again) that I am getting divorced? These are really the issues I need to have a face to face conversation with my rational self when he appears again, hopefully soon.

SerJR,

Only she can do her part. If she's unremorseful that's not going to happen, no matter how hard you try to set boundaries, try to win her into the marriage, etc.
You can only control your choices.
And the choice that stands in front of you right now is - are you willing to accept the current situation?

I do NOT accept the current situation. My timeline for the S / D is mid December if I do not see a significant change in attitude and behavior.

Okay - now here's another question for you. And I'm not sure if I've ever seen this one asked before, but it might be thought provoking...

What does S/D look like for you?

Hi SerJR,

What does S / D look like for me?

A lot of emotional pain and physical exhaustion. It will be a mess selling our real estate in a down market. Neither of us will profit from this. I am now making less than 50% of what I used to make + I am now paying for our medical out of pocket for 2 adults (but that would then go down to just for one person eventually.) We will also have to sell some equities at a loss right now (unless we can do an in-kind split into two different accounts, that may be possible.)

There will be a lot of drama from both of us. Accusations of me never loving her and her never loving me. Us both saying this is what you wanted all along. Then me probably saying I wish I never met you. Us both saying 23 years was flushed down the drain. Throw in another brief and false R in the middle of the process.

After time I will be living in a home barely large enough for one human, Maybe I'll get a dog or a cat for companionship. I will begin reading voraciously like I used to before I met HER. I will probably reconnect with some old friends (but NOT any ladies from prior romantic relationships.)

After a few months I will begin to feel better than I have since March 2009, especially if I stick with no contact. I will eat a proper human diet. I will begin working out even more intensely. I will plan some vacations with my son.

When I get to around the one year anniversary of me moving out and living alone, I will start to think about dating again. But I will do my best to not feel pressure or disappointment about this. I think I will be in a much better head space and attract somebody that will appreciate an honest and loyal man.

If I write it all down with a clear head and let my logical brain take over, it is really not as scary as it would be when I am in an activated state of mind. And the peace of no longer being involved with someone that has hurt me (more than I could have even imagined anybody could have) will bring me happiness; not the happiness I expected but instead the happiness I need.

I think you have a pretty realistic outlook on things, both for R and S/D.

How did it feel to write all of that down?

Neither path is easy. Both will take time and work to get over the hurt. But there is one thing in common regardless of the path that you take...

And the peace of no longer being involved with someone that has hurt me (more than I could have even imagined anybody could have) will bring me happiness; not the happiness I expected but instead the happiness I need.

And this is the key, whether you R or D. You're making that commitment to your wellbeing. The difference is whether your WW is in the picture or not. I'm a big fan of reframing to evaluate perspectives so I'll leave you with this thought - we don't have to give up on our dreams, but sometimes we just have to adjust some of the details.

[This message edited by SerJR at 6:20 PM, Thursday, October 19th]

SerJR,

Thank you for your time and thoughts and really forcing me to dig in to understand my greatest fears right now.

How did it feel to write all of that down?

I feel like I finally have some agency, and I have not felt that in decades. The outcome I desire the least is not as scary as I thought it would be. I feel better having written it all down.

It's almost like the shadows of our fears grow large in our minds until we force ourselves to confront that reality. And then we can see that we do have agency and that we can deal with things capably. I honestly think the most important thing one can hear when dealing with such tumult in one's life is some validation that "you're gonna be okay". And you are going to be okay brother, regardless of what happens as long as you can have some faith in yourself that you'll find your way. And if that validation can come from within, it is both ferociously empowering and calmly liberating.

Thank you SerJR.

Wife and I made tremendous progress last night. In a reply where you asked me what her commitment to recovery would look like, she took care of the first item on my list. She was able to get scans of that year's college yearbook (bc she does not remember this scumbag professor's name) and although they are low quality black and white headshots, she is reasonably certain who this professor is. It was a long time ago and her shame / guilt no doubt are interfering with her remembering fully all the details. As far as she recalls it was one moment of weakness. She definitely kissed him and had an EA, but she is not really sure if it was anything more than just a kiss, which is bad enough.

She wants to become a member on this forum, which I encouraged. She sent an email asking for permission to join and was asked my handle, which she gave to the admin that replied. I also sent an email confirming that I would love for her to participate in all of our journey's here and welcome here here with out any reservations. I assure you that she will be an asset to this community as she feels more confident that she will be welcomed to our community.

Thank you all that do the work here.

That's good to hear wonday.

If she's coming here, you might want to consider some ground rules. I mean that in the sense that, for example, sometimes it might be helpful to vent to help clear up your head, where it could be misinterpreted by your WW (or vice-versa). Basically have an agreement for where you both might want some space to help process things, either with not reading or not responding to some threads. There's been other poster-couples that can probably offer you some better guidance on that with what worked and didn't work.

I'm glad to hear that you're making progress and she at least seems to be making an effort. I do truly wish her well with her own healing and hope that she can provide you with the support that you need, and that she can find the support within herself that she needs.

Thanks SerJR.

We are discussing ground rules currently.

We are probably already implementing the ground rules (which for now would be no direct engagement in replies.) We discussed possibly keeping our reactions to other posts that we feel we can agree on, disagree, sidebar, whatever, in DMs to each other (we are statistically always civil to each other, just not always objective and fair.) Also, yes indeed there are some boards, like "Just Found Out" and "S / D" she may want to avoid altogether, at least in the beginning. But I would never write anything here that I would not say to her in person. I am pretty sincere. She may, on the contrary, feel safer writing something here than saying it to me in person. And we will have to take that one reply / post at a time and check in with each other.

I am interested in learning more about the protocols and pitfalls of a couple in R both being here. We see some risks (but she has read every single thing I have written here as of last night) but both feel that the potential for mutual support and growth far outweigh the potential risks. She felt like she was hit with a sledgehammer reading about my pain and fear. She's already heard it, but it's so much more impactful reading it. When I reread some of the stuff I wrote I am also jarred by it. It's unfiltered, in the moment, and direct. I really want to know that side of her so I can work on the things I need to. I also have to recognize publicly (in this reply only for now)
the depth of her pain she feels knowing the pain that she has caused me. In 2009 she could have slithered away and avoided my family and friends after D Day. One great compliment I can pay her that demonstrates her true essence and character is that despite her shame and guilt, she looked everyone in the eye and actually apologized. I can only imagine how difficult that would have been. She may not have been perfect, but she has been faithful since 2009. I need to count this as huge wins and she earns trust.

I think I know her story, but brother, reading it will really be something else. I welcome all growth opportunities for both of us.

You might consider starting a new thread in the R forum to ask about ground rules for when both partners are on the site. That way the topic is immediately visible for others who might have some thoughts and experience, instead of being buried in here. We will, of course, welcome her here.

Onedayatatime,

I've been following your thread with interest because there are some similarities to my marriage.

Did you ever get a complete confession about the same sex affair she had, it was a long affair, and I would question if your WW actually likes women more than men.

There's also the fact that your WW got what you would have enjoyed, another woman, which seems even more unfair than an OM.

In the case of a OM it's easier because the only thing you want to do to OM is beat him down. I don't have that same feeling for my WWs female friend.

Why do you keep people in your life like your ExW it almost sounds like a threesome or take vacations with fiends of the affair. Can you trust your WW with other women.

Does your WW keep women in her life who are bi or lesbians or that she is attracted to?

Did you get a confession about all the people who watched or encouraged your WWs affairs and get them out of your life with an iron fist.

The age difference is painful and disgusting my WW OM3 was 85 while she was in her late 40s he died before I could confront him. Is your OM alive? My WW says nothing happened and it was an EA I did go to his funeral to size up his family.

Given your WW charisma did she leverage that to have casual and non-emotional sex with people, perhaps she's just telling you the major ones, I know some women view cheating with other women as something other than cheating. Her job as a therapist might have lead to these kinds of entanglements.

Hi Survrus

Thank you for your reply.

Did you ever get a complete confession about the same sex affair she had, it was a long affair, and I would question if your WW actually likes women more than men.

I did get a complete confession or at least to my satisfaction very early on.

There's also the fact that your WW got what you would have enjoyed, another woman, which seems even more unfair than an OM.

Not sure if I would have enjoyed a threesome with this woman. There are certainly other women that I would have at least wondered what it would be like, I suppose.

In the case of a OM it's easier because the only thing you want to do to OM is beat him down. I don't have that same feeling for my WWs female friend.

Wanting to beat someone down, maybe at the time. For this woman, my beat down was more psychological. I outed her to her beard bf (who really liked her), and he either outed her to her family or she beat him to the punch and outed herself. Either way, mission accomplished. She can still go f herself to this day.

Why do you keep people in your life like your ExW it almost sounds like a threesome or take vacations with fiends of the affair. Can you trust your WW with other women.

My ExW and WW have been a united front getting my bio son the services and support he needed. Despite our differences going back decades, we circled the wagons around our boy. She has proven herself to be a friend to both of us. No threesomes. There is one friend still in contact that knew about the affair and did not actively discourage it. We have gone on vacations with her. No threesomes. She does trigger me at times bc she knew about the affair with the OW. I am thinking I will gradually lose contact with her. Again, she is a trigger. My WW trusted her more than me. That still stings.

Does your WW keep women in her life who are bi or lesbians or that she is attracted to?

No.

Did you get a confession about all the people who watched or encouraged your WWs affairs and get them out of your life with an iron fist.

I have been unable to get a true confession other than "yes I knew about the affair" from one person, the friend still in contact. This is a new concept to expunge these folks and she was the impetus for as major triggering even the past May 2023. Working on developing that Iron Fist.

The age difference is painful and disgusting my WW OM3 was 85 while she was in her late 40s he died before I could confront him. Is your OM alive? My WW says nothing happened and it was an EA I did go to his funeral to size up his family.

We are dealing with some legitimate memory issues here, so we are not going to push this right now. We have made progress the past 24 hours and I am satisfied in my ww's good faith efforts to get me this info.

Given your WW charisma did she leverage that to have casual and non-emotional sex with people, perhaps she's just telling you the major ones, I know some women view cheating with other women as something other than cheating. Her job as a therapist might have lead to these kinds of entanglements.

I am fairly confident right now it's just the OW and at min an EA with professor dude with a possible ONS with him prior to our nuptials. As far as my wife's ethics as a professional, I hold her in the HIGHEST regard and do not for a single second think she would ever even imagine any kind of unethical entanglement. Just the other night I expressed my frustration that she honored her vow as a therapist yet broke her vow as my wife.

Thank you for these questions. I am very confident with my answers.

She definitely kissed him and had an EA, but she is not really sure if it was anything more than just a kiss, which is bad

This is bullshit. Shame,or guilt,don't cause amnesia. It also is a huge contradiction,considering how extremely intelligent you say she is. The yearbook picture that she thinks *might* be him is really not anything definitive, so it really doesn't mean much.

she looked everyone in the eye and actually apologized

Does that include his wife? Other than you, his wife is someone who really deserved that apology. THAT would speak a lot about her character.

She's a serial cheater who claims not to remember details. I suggest she start by posting in the Wayward forum.

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:35 PM, Saturday, October 21st]

WRT boundaries when both BS and WS in R use SI:

My W & I agreed to stay out of each other's threads entirely. In the list of threads, readers can see who started the thread, and we agreed to use that.

We also agreed to avoid reading each other's posts. That was harder to implement, because I usually read posts in sequence, only sometimes noting the author before starting to read.

I usually stayed in R & G; W stayed in WS, so we rarely saw each other's posts.

The reason for staying out of each other's threads and posts is that one is generally a work-in-progress, so where one is when they post may be different from where they'll end up. More significantly, if you tend to post when you have a problem, your partner is likely to get a skewed picture of where you are.

Don't try to stay away from each other's posts - do it - stay out of each other's posts and threads.

JMO.

Hi HellFire,

This is bullshit. Shame,or guilt,don't cause amnesia. It also is a huge contradiction,considering how extremely intelligent you say she is. The yearbook picture that she thinks *might* be him is really not anything definitive, so it really doesn't mean much.

I need to educate myself further regarding memory. For now I have to accept what I know and understand. I can spiral into unproductive What If questions but that's not what I want to do, at least for now.

Does that include his wife? Other than you, his wife is someone who really deserved that apology. THAT would speak a lot about her character.

He was unmarried, a single man.

I suggest she start by posting in the Wayward forum.

That seems to be the plan.

Hi sisoon,

Thank you. Everything you wrote makes sense.

Thank you both for your support.

She's telling you she doesn't know his name,or if she had sex with him..but she knows he wasn't married.

Sounds like she has a very selective memory.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:04 PM, Saturday, October 21st]

I can spiral into unproductive What If questions but that's not what I want to do, at least for now.

Getting to the truth is not unproductive.

Cheaters lie. Especially serial cheaters who claim to not remember the name of an AP, and whether or not they had sex with them.

I'm 51 years old. I'd call myself reasonably intelligent. I can remember the name of every man I've had sex with,in my entire life. She absolutely knows if she had sex with this man. It isn't unproductive to get to the truth. What is unproductive? Taking her selective memories at face value, and attempting to reconcile, only to find out months, or years later, that reconciliation has been false, because the ws lied their way through it.

It's good that she will be posting on the wayward forum. The former waywards there will emphasize the importance of honesty, and will help her dig into her past, and get to that truth.

Ondayatatime,

Oh about STDs the OW your WW had I presume oral contact with which can pass HPV to you, OW also had a beard at the time you wrote about and whatever he had got passed on to OW and into the chain of transmission. Presuming they did not have "safe sex" which is usually a gigantic lie cheater tell.

Monitor all your mucus membranes oral/throat/genital/anal for bumps or pain etc which could be HPV related cancers which sometimes strike decades later. Look this up "HPV Cancer" in google.

The Professor likely a serial cheater who preyed on young females so again a large chain of transmission.

I presume you don't have Syph/Gonor/HIV, but some of them can become chronic/tertiary if undetected.

Some public health services, like your local county, off free and anonymous testing.

[This message edited by survrus at 2:01 AM, Sunday, October 22nd]