SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

TLDR: I think we are going to be OK.

Happy new year to all... my condolences to those who joined the club over what must be the worst time of year to do so. For those not familiar with my story, google "completely confused and all over the place ozzy" and you will find it. In summary:

- Wife gave ILYBNILWY speech
- Then admitted she had gained feelings for the ex she had been seeing for dinners and such (all with my permission till that point, we are not jealous people)
- In a moment of madness in my shock that this had become an EA, I said that she should just sleep with him and get it over with
- She took hold of this and it became a choice for me to allow it and make my peace with it, or lose my wife and kids and it happen anyway.

When I last wrote (September), we had decided to abandon the idea of separating and had started MC. This has been a life saver. We had a fairly major blip in October but have since continued our R, and have both learned a lot about ourselves and each other. Random collection of thoughts incoming. I have lurked the last few months, especially on the WS topic, learning about mistakes made etc and trying to give myself understanding. Some of what follows might not work for everyone (we all know my story wasn't conventional in the first instance) but it has helped me a lot.

Firstly, my W has given me the reassurance needed that the whole episode is behind us. Password to phone, checking in with me when away with work (especially when she had to go near where he lives, she called in floods of tears on a video call), accepting when I have mentioned things that have triggered me. Again the MC has really helped with this.

One thing that came up in our MC which was quite hard to take (and re-emphasises why I wish I found this site about 2 months earlier than I did) was how much my WWs opinion of me went DOWN when I first made that throwaway comment. Sure, nothing excuses the A, but in her mind the attraction for POSOM had formed because of our marital issues, not in spite of. She wanted me to focus on the things that were making her unhappy, and I made it "all about him". So having a H that would say that just made POSOM more attractive in her eyes, and all the bullshit that followed was in large part due to this. Had I stood up to her in the first place I could have saved myself a lot of heartache. Live and learn.

At this point I want to recommend the book "Getting Past the Affair" by Synder, Baucom, and Coop Gordon which was recommended by our MC. It is very balanced and fair to both sides. One thing I have learned from this site is that some WSs are absolute assholes for which it seems there is no way back. But many others have slipped down a path they never thought they would. Once getting over the initial devastation of it all, there needs to be understanding from the BS about how the marriage ended up in a place where this could happen, and some form of empathy for the broken-ness of the person you love. A year of madness won't kill the 17 years that preceded it, or at least not for me. Only one person is responsible for an A (I know debatable in my case...), but two people are responsible for a marriage. This is an area where our MC has been great in steering the conversation in the right direction at the right times.

We had an individual session each with the MC just before Xmas, and she praised me for my ability to deal with this, and said if anyone can get past this, I can. She acknowledges that there is an element of rug sweeping from my W, but she can see the remorse there and that she simply doesn't want to accept that this was all down to part of her being broken. My W can see that this was all for nothing now, whereas obviously in the midst of it all when she fell in "love" with him she thought it was worth ending her marriage for. Part of my learning is empathy for the fact that acknowledging that in yourself must be brutal. It isn't something I am going to push for, and she gives me signs in her in time that she is learning and will be bringing it up more in her IC.

I could have made the choice to leave her and the kids, but I didn't want to. That was my choice, and one I am very at ease with. We just had a wonderful Christmas with the children and have started the new year with a sense of optimism.

I feel like I had loads more to say but putting this out there is tougher than I thought it would be! A few people have been checking in with me though so thought I would give an update. Happy to answer any questions that would clear things up. But in summary, I am no longer in infidelity and we are both working to appreciate what we have more (which is actually pretty damn good and much better than the alternative).

Oh finally, while I have been lurking I have been astounded by the sheer volume of contributions by certain posters. I don't know how you find the time, but thank god you do. The support provided by internet strangers is truly heartwarming. Though my time on this site has been far from smooth-sailing, it has helped me so much to get through the shittest year of my life so for that I thank you all.

Cheers,

Ozzy

Has her attraction to you been improving? I know that was a major obstacle.

I'm glad to hear you are moving forward , but I have to disagree with this:

there needs to be understanding from the BS about how the marriage ended up in a place where this could happen,

^^^IMO, that's accepting blame for the affair. Understand that affairs also happen in the best of marriages. I think most of us here were blindsided because all marriages have ups and downs, and only one person chooses to cheat.

Has her attraction to you been improving? I know that was a major obstacle.

Yeah. The MC has been a godsend on many things, but the MC really digging into what the problems are have shown that they are minor. The MC knows as well as I do that the A was a big part of all of this. One of the (many) mistakes I made was trying to "teach" my W all that I had learned via this site and other means, which of course got me absolutely nowhere. But by shutting up about it, doing my own thing, and letting NC do its thing she has definitely come out of the fog. She hasn't said it outright but has alluded to the fact that she feels incredibly stupid about the whole mess. She fell in love with someone and in those first few weeks of NC, she wondered why the hell he wasn't contacting her if he really loved her. What was this whole thing for??? Nothing. I can understand why that is hard for her to deal with, but she is getting there and her IC is helping.

^^^IMO, that's accepting blame for the affair. Understand that affairs also happen in the best of marriages. I think most of us here were blindsided because all marriages have ups and downs, and only one person chooses to cheat.

I knew I would word that bit wrong, so apologies. I am definitely not accepting blame. I guess I am just saying I can only be in control of my own destiny, so have learned how I can improve as a person in the marriage. It doesn't excuse anything, but I want the marriage to be better for me as well. We have made subtle changes already which have relieved the moments of tension that used to exist (and I never thought they were a big deal but they clearly were to her). Again, not giving excuses, but looking for reasons how we ended up where we were.

I had a moment a few months ago where I was feeling really angry about it all and then wondered why I was consuming myself with anger, when I could try to move on. It was a cathartic moment. I know this could come sooner or later for others but I feel like it is an important moment to come to to be able to move forward.

Ozzie, I can’t tell you how happy I am to see your post. It looks like you two are moving in the right direction. Now let me say this; I don’t know if it’s your writing style or something else unidentified, or I sense something amiss. Mind you it is good your moving in the right direction but I always get the feeling from your first post until now, that you take too much responsibility for the state of your marriage. That’s something for you to discern if you know to. So chew on that and see if there is any meat on that bone so to speak. Anyway. I hope you and yours had a great holiday season and I hope your journey out of infidelity is straightforward.

Firstly, my W has given me the reassurance needed that the whole episode is behind us.

I think you need to look at this more closely. Very few BSes or WSes heal as fast as you seem to be saying you and your W are healing. There are always outliers, and you may be 2 of them, but if you're not ....

I am definitely not accepting blame. I guess I am just saying I can only be in control of my own destiny, so have learned how I can improve as a person in the marriage. It doesn't excuse anything, but I want the marriage to be better for me as well.

Nice update. Happy to hear you are feeling good (better).

One of my complaints with SI posters is when they (frequently) say, "It couldn't be the M because if that was the problem, he/she would have asked for a D. The wayward is obviously broken." My complaint is this: would it have been fine if the cheater had simply asked for a D? Maybe it would have been more fair, but would it have been fine for them to simply be done and walk away? Rubbish! I have several friends who moved to a D with no cheating, and let me tell you, they are anything but fine. And no, they don't see it as "fair." They see being blindsided with a divorce as being quite unfair. One of my friends actually said, "I'd rather she had just cheated and still wanted to work it out. Instead she just wants out." (Yes, I did think, "Be careful what you wish for...") So I do believe that some waywards cheat to solve issues in the M. (Lol. Not a solution, but they believe it may be.) And them asking for or wanting a D would have been them already at a place where they are calling the M as dead. So at least there is still an M to save.

In any case, your openness to somewhat contradicting SI dogma may save your M since you are willing to see the M as at least a component, not a cause. Because it's not a cause, but to pretend it's not in the mix at all is simply a fallacy. That is why so many of us betrayeds change, stand up for ourselves now, speak up, and have better boundaries. Because the type of M we had prior to the cheating was a component, a part of the problem. It is very wise of you to be open to that aspect without crossing into full "What did I do wrong to make you cheat?" ownership (unhealthy and untrue). Balancing these ideas is best, in my opinion. Kudos to you.

One thing that came up in our MC which was quite hard to take (and re-emphasises why I wish I found this site about 2 months earlier than I did) was how much my WWs opinion of me went DOWN when I first made that throwaway comment.

I'm confused on this. About, "Go ahead and sleep with him"? Can you explain why her opinion went down? Did she feel you weren't fighting for her?

I like the things you are reporting about your WW, and I wish you two the best.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:03 PM, Wednesday, January 3rd]

@Denny, thanks for your continued support throughout this saga. I've really appreciated it

Now let me say this; I don’t know if it’s your writing style or something else unidentified, or I sense something amiss. Mind you it is good your moving in the right direction but I always get the feeling from your first post until now, that you take too much responsibility for the state of your marriage.

I get what you are saying. There are a couple of elements to this:

1. I mentioned in a previous thread a book recommendation: "This is How your marriage ends" by Matthew Fray. This book has nothing to do with infidelity, but the general dynamics of marriage. One of the most poignant parts was him describing even if you are only 5% responsible for a situation in your marriage, you can work on that 5%. That is what I have been doing, working on how I can be better, not just for her but for me. It is all part of my quest to come out the other side of this as a better person (and yes husband, why not?)

2. (and sissoon your comment ties into this - we are certainly not 100% healed but have a much better understanding of how we ended up where we were) Right from the beginning when people said I possibly shouldn't be on this website it was clear that our situation was a bit different. Though I felt I had no other option, was backed into a corner, whatever, I did say YES to her going PA. Stupidest mistake of my life and I need to live with that and own it. I have wrestled with that a lot but have (almost) made my peace with it.

@owningitnow: Thanks so much for your post. This really resonates with the struggle and journey I have been on. I've realised that in the early days of posting here I sometimes took things too much to heart and thought I was doing things wrong. For anyone new here the best piece of advice I can give (and thank HurtHalo and others for their support) is TRUST YOUR GUT. You will make mistakes but every situation is different, and your gut will tell you whether you are heading in the right or wrong direction. I know I made massive mistakes but when things started to go right I could see why. When my W met POSOM behind my back when it was meant to be NC my spidey senses tingled so hard it was crazy.

Your whole comment about getting divorced really rings true to me. When we were about to separate (and lets face it, she would have contacted him if we did) I was ready for it, but I didn't WANT it. I mean throwing away 17 years because of this asshole??? How ridiculous.

I'm confused on this. About, "Go ahead and sleep with him"? Can you explain why her opinion went down? Did she feel you weren't fighting for her?

Now I understand this might sound delusion on both mine and her parts, but we have gone through this at length in MC, and I truly believe this now.

My W was in an EA, no doubt. But when she told me about her feelings for him and I said to go ahead and sleep with him, she says she NEVER would have gone physical if it wasn't for that. She wanted to focus on our marital issues and her feelings for him had just made her realise how badly in the whole we were (yeah, I know that bit is wayward speak). So if I hadn't agreed, she would have wanted to carry on seeing him because she could control herself. I don't have a time machine to see what would have happened in this scenario (or if I had said she needed to stop seeing him) but this is her truth, and I can see through the MC when there is no need for secrecy or lies that she means it. The fact that she saw him behind my back after NC commenced and DIDN'T sleep with him due to guilt backs this all up as well.

As I said, biggest mistake of my life. But the focus is now on our marriage and the plentiful amounts of good that are in it. POSOM was just in the wrong (right for him) place at the wrong (right for him) time. But I try not to give that asshole too much thought. My W now knows that he was just someone complimenting her at a time when she felt low and our marriage wasn't 100%.

Certainly not saying things are straight back to 100% (I mean they weren't before this anyway) but I think we will be OK.

Thanks again for the support.

I can't remember, but was the POSOM's wife ever informed?

I remember your reluctance due to concerns of how your wife would react. I'd assume now that at least those fears/concerns are behind you.

My W was in an EA, no doubt. But when she told me about her feelings for him and I said to go ahead and sleep with him, she says she NEVER would have gone physical if it wasn't for that. She wanted to focus on our marital issues and her feelings for him had just made her realise how badly in the whole we were (yeah, I know that bit is wayward speak). So if I hadn't agreed, she would have wanted to carry on seeing him because she could control herself. I don't have a time machine to see what would have happened in this scenario (or if I had said she needed to stop seeing him) but this is her truth, and I can see through the MC when there is no need for secrecy or lies that she means it. The fact that she saw him behind my back after NC commenced and DIDN'T sleep with him due to guilt backs this all up as well.

There is no such thing as her truth or his truth. There’s THE TRUTH… and then there’s how we choose to interpret it and behave.

So the latest story is that your wife that didn’t coerce you into having an affair and that the EA relationship would’ve never become sexual had you not suggested it. Correct?

And her begging you not to make her end it, cursing you out on vacation, continuing to contact him behind your back… that never happened either, right?

I’m just trying to keep track of which version we’re on now, because it changes every time.

Yeah it is interesting....

There is reading everything I have poured out to strangers and there is giving sympathy and support.

Or there is giving that person a hard time.

It is all down to how we interpret it and behave.

Have a good weekend.

I'm not giving you a hard time for the hell of it, nor am I doing anything wrong by bringing up and trying to make sense of events that you have told us about.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt I'm the only person who finds giving you applicable advice to be very challenging because your story keeps changing.

In this latest version, you're saying that impetus for the affair was you suggesting that she sleep with the OM. Your wife really wanted to focus on your marriage; the idea of taking the EA to the next level didn't cross her mind until you mentioned it. You weren't coerced or pressured in any way.

Is that correct or am I missing something?

Hi there Ozzy ! Glad to see you back and know you are doing better.

Don’t be too surprised about some of the questions or comments here. Most folks here including myself view cheating as a black or white situation, your story has fifty shades of grey.

From what I understand, your wife found some one she was interested in. You decided it was ok to be physical, would give you the freedom to pursue others too. It turned into EA and that’s when you wanted her to back off. She lied and threw a massive tantrum about not being attracted to you. The conclusion now is that if you hadn’t given the push , she wouldn’t go ahead with the PA.

Alls well that ends well , just not for the OBS.

Abalone, the EA didn't happen after Ozzy's wife started the physical relationship; it was an EA from the very start. That's the one thing that's been consistent about his story.

What changes was whether Ozzy (1) willingly consented to the affair, but then got upset because she was clearly more attached and attracted to her lover, (2) was coerced into allowing the affair or otherwise felt threatened if he didn't allow it, or (3) flippantly suggested that his wife have an affair and she took him up on it, even though it was not what she wanted at the time.

Ozzy: if the real story is 1 or 3, and all these problems were due to just a terrible misunderstanding, then the reason why you think your path to healing from infidelity is the exception rather than the rule is because, quite simply, you were never cheated on in the first place.

I'm sorry, but version 3 makes the least sense to me, particularly because, in your earlier posts in JFO, you indicated that there was some discussion before she took the plunge, and you set limits on frequency/acts. It was also clear in your early posts just how much you were were agonizing over how your wife was so deeply infatuated with her ex boyfriend and enjoying her intimacy with him, while completely icing you out. Perhaps I'm overgeneralizing, but that's not the behavior of a woman who's fully committed to her marriage and only stepping out on her husband at his request.

I can tell you that if my marriage was in trouble but I was really wanted to save it, I would not react to my husband saying something like, "oh get it over with and sleep with him!" by going out and doing it... not unless I was already planning on doing it anyway. In fact, I would feel really hurt and insulted by the suggestion.

To be clear, I'm not posting all this to shit on your cake or accuse you of lying. My concern is (and has always been) your tendency to rewrite history in order to resolve your cognitive dissonance. It also seems like much of the improvement that you're seeing in your relationship is predicated on you taking responsibility for her choices (ie, she would've never done x if you hadn't done y).

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:24 PM, Saturday, January 6th]

Bluerthanblue, Thanks for clarifying. It changes things anyways if there was a consent of any kind ( enthusiastic or coerced). Selfish move either way, because there is a fourth equally important person in this story who has no clue. No one should get to play with another life or marriage.

You also got it right . Ozzy has been pandering to his wife’s immature selfish choices and taking responsibility for her actions. How is this adult going to ever learn that a) she cannot have whatever she wants including others husbands b) You are responsible for your own f ups?

What is interesting is that no one in the situation above has learnt their lessons. I can only hope that the AP in this case has irreversible ED for life and his wife finds someone less morally bankrupt. As for Ozzy, I hope you really take a step back and think. You are responsible for this mess but not as much as your wife. Don’t clean up her messes, she will never learn. Also, what both of you need is to acknowledge and regret the fact that you meddled and hurt another marriage and an unsuspecting spouse. I know you don’t care, but remember nothing changes if no lessons are learnt.

I thought about those last few posts all weekend and planned to write a big post clarifying a few things, but now I don't think I have the energy. A few people had checked in to see how I was doing so I created this thread and hopefully they can see that things are better for me, but now I am just finding the whole thing triggering again. I know I made massive mistakes last year but they pale into insignificance (to me at least) to the pain that I suffered.

I am now no longer suffering that pain. To me that is a win.

Will let this thread drift now. I hope I can chime in with the odd piece of advice for people on other threads without it triggering others.

I know you don’t care

This is the worst one

Believe me I care. You said yourself this story has 50 shades of grey, so to be so binary is, to me, a bit harsh. I have said there are other things that I won't say on a public forum that influence my choices and didn't even mention (O)BS this time.

Anyway, I am rambling. For those that believed I was caught up in infidelity, you have helped me get out of it and I am grateful. For those that never thought I was, well, you helped me realise how badly I fucked up and I am coming to terms with that mentally. So everyone has helped in their own way.

Cheers.

Ozzy

Ozzy, never commented on your threads but I read some of your story and glad you are heading to the path of healing and that your W is on board with the work! I want you to know that you are heard and that some members of this forum root for you and the "50 shades of mess" that each of our stories is

Also need to say this… it is so disheartening to see how some feel it’s OK to basically bully someone out from his own thread, from HIS SAFE space to share news on his path and thoughts.

Comments that are purposely aggressive and made to attack someone who has been hurting and been vulnerable enough to open up to strangers are just NOT OK. I just don’t get how some thinks they are. And please don’t hide behind the "I’m just blunt" BS or the "take what you want and leave the rest…". Word sticks, especially harsh ones, and attacks, veiled or blunt, have effects on people, they hurt people. If you don’t have genuine support to give, why just don’t chime in at all? Please don’t turn valuable forums like this into toxic spaces.

Ozzy, wishing you healing to you and your W! Whether your journey out of infidelity is "imperfect" or not, it’s your journey and I’m sure the lessons you learned will bring you wisdom and can help others too.

Stay with us Ozzie. You’re needed here by us. Whether you never need us again. We are stronger with diversity of thought.

Lala, I agree that Ozzy is being bullied... but the person who is doing it is his wife, who crushed Ozzy's self esteem over the course of several years and successfully manipulated him into believing that he is responsible for her choices. I think 99% of waywards would be "on board with doing the work" if "the work" meant that the BS accepted blame for their cheating, bought into the "unmet needs" fallacy of infidelity, and continued to prop them up on a pedestal.

Ozzy, Sisoon and I frequently have vastly different points of view, but his comment on this thread was spot on; please give it some serious thought:

I think you need to look at this more closely. Very few BSes or WSes heal as fast as you seem to be saying you and your W are healing. There are always outliers, and you may be 2 of them, but if you're not ....

... and going forward, I'll stay off your threads, if you don't feel there is any value to my feedback or advice.

BTB - It is just tiring. I respect your posts across all other threads but in mine it seems like you have got so blinkered and are not sensing things that others seem to be. You said yourself there are facts and there are interpretation, I totally agree. But it seems in my case you have your mind made up and nothing will change it. The idea that my wife is currently bullying me is frankly laughable. Yes, she was a real shit to me for a while, which I think is a fairly standard trait of waywards. But most of your most recent post has no basis in fact at all.

So I fully welcome input, but not if it is just "His wife is bullying him". If you can come up with reasons for thinking that is the case, based on what I have told you about the current situation, great.

Lala, I agree that Ozzy is being bullied... but the person who is doing it is his wife, who crushed Ozzy's self esteem over the course of several years and successfully manipulated him into believing that he is responsible for her choices. I think 99% of waywards would be "on board with doing the work" if "the work" meant that the BS accepted blame for their cheating, bought into the "unmet needs" fallacy of infidelity, and continued to prop them up on a pedestal.

I just don't even know where to begin with this. There are at least four statements which are factually incorrect. As I said, others seem to have gotten that, so I am happy to go over them again if you like but I would rather focus on what is happening now.

As for Sissoon's comment, I totally get it. But as many have said, my story has so many more grey areas that I think this has "helped" us. Someone a while back said that my wife has treated me a lot "better" than most waywards. Looking back on it all and reading other stories, I agree. How many waywards tell their other half they feel attracted to the OM before doing anything? I would rather none of it happened at all of course, but look through JFO and tell me why my W is more of a POS than any waywards currently being discussed there.

(If you feel that every wayward deserves to get in the bin then fair enough, but I just don't quite follow what makes mine worthy of such levels of scorn).

Am rambling again, apologies