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I get why "sleeping together" is too off the truth. It conjures up a bedroom with rose petals scattered about.

I can't STAND the term "making love" when it comes to infidelity (or in general, really.) Same reaction. Blech.

emergent8

I'm not sure I understand this. Critters? Do you mean kids? I don't think anyone should settle for a morally crippled partner, either. But I understand the decision to leave is not easy or straightforward for everyone, and I think everyone deserves support.

"Gotcha!" critter -> euphemism for biological mostly single cell organisms and viruses - some of which are characteristically

communicated between consenting persons "sleeping together" (or otherwise touching/sharing body fluids)

and generally make the host somewhere from uncomfortable (UTI) all the way to death - Syphilis

Don't remember where I read but I was looking up someone (Wiki?) and found he died from - a UTI! (many many

years ago)

Infant not yet able to walk: carpet-crawler

very young child: yard-monkey

tyke: now days - small child - History: a dog! haven't looked up how it got to refer to small child

if you grow up in a culture - you absorb the way most people communicate and don't have to much question about their meaning

edit!

I can't STAND the term "making love" when it comes to infidelity (or in general, really.) Same reaction. Blech.

Reminded me of a George Carlin skit in which he spiels on the term "making love" - skit starts on the vulgar word generally used for coitus and to hurt someone verbally

[This message edited by Hippo16 at 9:26 PM, Thursday, February 15th]

Ah, gotcha. It was a totally separate thought from your first point. You meant to say that you are annoyed by BS who are able to get over the fact that their WS exposed them to various illnesses/disease in the course of their A. As someone who did just that, I suppose I'm someone whose story bothers you. Sorry, I guess? To be honest, I don't really feel the need to explain myself or justify. It was bad and I don't think I ever glossed over that. You may not understand it, but I assure you I do not live with a morally crippled partner.

if you grow up in a culture - you absorb the way most people communicate and don't have to much question about their meaning

You'd think that for someone whose original point was about the semantics of language, you'd have been more clear with the rest of your post.

One last T/J

Someone told me this joke/anecdote while I was in Germany. I cannot attest to its truthfulness but I can certainly believe it.

This part is true. Many/most German men (at least when I was there) would whip it out and urinate at the side of the road rather than look for a toilet.

The story goes that an American lady was stopped and happened upon a German man relieving himself. "Oh, that’s gross!!" she exclaimed.

"Thank you," he said, smiling.

*gross=large

Where did the term gross originate?
From Middle English gross ("whole, entire; flagrant, monstrous"), from Old French gros ("big, thick, large, stout"), from Late Latin grossus ("thick in diameter, coarse"), and Medieval Latin grossus ("great, big"), influenced by Old High German grōz ("big, thick, coarse"), from Proto-Germanic *grautaz ("large, great, ...

Americans "warp" language?

Common usage as in 'Gross Weight" - Ship: "Gross Tonnage"

American slang? disgusting -

Wonder where the "American Slang" definition come from?

HFSSC

Hippo,

I am annoyed at threads where the BS "accepts" the WS has offered them all kinds of critters via their activities (some lifetime) and seem (?) to accept that is part/parcel to staying with the morally crippled partner.

Perhaps no one gets out of life unscathed by the destructive choices made by others. I acknowledge that there is a scale in destructive choices (i.e. my kid lied to me to avoid a consequence vs. my partner who took vows promising faith and loyalty cheated on me). Yet, we each decide: How much destruction is too much to continue to have a relationship with this other person?

For some who are betrayed, there is no going forward. It's a deal breaker. Relationship over.

For some it's a matter of recovery and work, and each person defines what that work needs to look like and what amount of change and consistency is enough.

For some it's rugsweeping and glossing over.

I personally believe that for everyone it's fear. Once you learn that ferocious pain that being betrayed brings, how could you not fear others?

Even those who divorce now carry that certainty that when we allow ourselves to become vulnerable with others we are opening ourselves to the possibility of tremendous pain.

IMO, ALL relationships are risk and reward--parent/child, romantic partner, friend, etc. All relationships (to be relationships) require vulnerability and, thus, risk. Anyone I let my guard down for can now hurt me, betray my trust.

Yet, what's the only way to "avoid" pain? Keep my guard up. Don't be vulnerable. And there is so much pain and loneliness (and maybe lack of growth) in that choice too.

No one gets out unscathed. No one.

So, it's up to each of us to judge and balance that risk vs. reward in each of our relationships with others.

I recognize that others on this site don't make the same choices I think I would make in their situation. But I'm cognizant that I am peering through a very small keyhole to their whole life, so my understanding of their situation is extremely limited. Im also aware that my choices are guided by my own perspective and experience, and their choices are guided by theirs. Beyond that, they may initially choose a path that results in too much extra pain and reverse course. And that's okay.

The only skin I have in their game is the brief time I chose to take to read their story and to maybe respond. And I chose to invest my time in that way. If later I feel that it was wasted because they didn't make the choice I was nudging them toward, then lesson learned for me. Will I choose to risk my time again? I decide that. Risk vs. reward.

Like almost everyone who posts more than once on this site, I grow from my time here. I learn from reading. I learn from others who support me and from those who ask me uncomfortable questions. I even find growth in posting, because writing forces me to express my thinking with clarity and creates "aha" moments too.

You say that you're not angry, and maybe saying that you're "annoyed" with a BS who accepts their cheating spouse doesn't rise to a level you would call anger. But I keep noticing your sign off. Isn't it a euphemism for a person who is considering an affair to just go risk death...or perhaps something more pointed than that?

I look at the number of veteran posters who asked what you were actually angry about or suggested that you were possibly angry and redirecting your anger at people who choose to stay. Multiple insightful folks read your initial post as angry. Are you sure you're not angry?

I'm not trying to poke the bear. I'm really asking for you to check in with yourself and explore what's there. Are you comfortable with the choices that you've made or pissed that you "had" to make them because of the choices and actions of your own spouse?

As a related side note, (while anecdotal and not research-based) I've noticed what seems to be gender trend. It seems like more betrayed women are willing to try R than betrayed men--especially if the betrayal was physically sexual.

If I'm correct, I've wondered why. Are women more afraid to divorce? Maybe. Are men less emotionally resilient? Maybe. Lots of possibilities here and much can be said for each situation being unique anyway. I've just noticed what I think is a trend.

Yet, as I pointed out above, even those who divorce carry with them the very certain knowledge that a new partner could still betray them, if they ever choose to be vulnerable again. It's knowledge that's etched in my heart. It's sobering and sad.

And I'm pissed that I learned the lesson so painfully: those we choose to be vulnerable with can also devastate us. I guess I knew it in theory. But the real-life experience is a shit show.

I came into this thread thinking one thing and quickly learned it was quite different... but I thought I'd share how I read the thread title just as an aside. My mind went to a ONS. I tend to think a ONS, particularly drunken sex one time, is more of a candidate for R than D. But I have seen some experiences where the WS goes to AP's hotel room for sex and then actually does sleep together with them for the night. Often having sex again in the morning. That dynamic of sleeping together seems to change from a ONS to something else. Particualrly if WS was drunk at night but obviously not in the morning. Sleeping together overnight has additional intimacy to it for me, which may be odd. But some actions cross a line where it is harder to think of R than if they never happened.

All - thanks for your views - really!

First post is simple - euphemism for sex I find annoying

BreakingBad

As a related side note, (while anecdotal and not research-based) I've noticed what seems to be gender trend. It seems like more betrayed women are willing to try R than betrayed men--especially if the betrayal was physically sexual.

I sort of think the same way and I would guess that some women view PIV sex as part of the dues they pay for attention or some kind of escape from their reality. (??!)

Probably best to have a thread somewhere on that as a separate subject. ??

Trdd

I came into this thread thinking one thing and quickly learned it was quite different... but I thought I'd share how I read the thread title just as an aside. My mind went to a ONS. I tend to think a ONS, particularly drunken sex one time, is more of a candidate for R than D. But I have seen some experiences where the WS goes to AP's hotel room for sex and then actually does sleep together with them for the night. Often having sex again in the morning. That dynamic of sleeping together seems to change from a ONS to something else. Particularly if WS was drunk at night but obviously not in the morning. Sleeping together overnight has additional intimacy to it for me, which may be odd. But some actions cross a line where it is harder to think of R than if they never happened.

Trdd:

I agree there are occasions where cheaters 'only' sleep together. Actually did spend a night with a couple women and no sex while in same bed. One, as it happened, started her 28 day/cycle time that evening. Another time, both to sloshed to do anything. More me than her of course.

Seems also the saying "we slept together" as in your post is really just using the "slept together" words as the euphemism for PIV.

Might as well add that you brushed your teeth too?

I would say as a rule such "sleeping together" is very much unbelievable by anyone who has discovered their favorite person is a cheater.

[This message edited by Hippo16 at 1:00 PM, Monday, February 19th]

I am annoyed at threads where the BS "accepts" the WS has offered them all kinds of critters via their activities (some lifetime) and seem (?) to accept that is part/parcel to staying with the morally crippled partner.

One has to accept the betrayal to move on in any case. BSes have been betrayed by definition. There's no way around that, and if on denies that truth, on is not fully in touch with reality.

After the betrayal, the partners need to decide what to do, but the betrayal is a fact. The critters were transferred from one person to another whether the partners R or D.

Are you saying that BSes should D in all cases?

Sisoon:

Regarding BS and divorce

My opinion is everyone who is cheated on needs to walk the path they see most fit for their life as best they can when fate delivers them the Merde Panini.

I think it is wrong to advise anyone on divorce or staying together regardless. As Bigger always says - the goal is to "Get OUT of Infidelity." Well, the how is where the xxxx hits the fan. Way to many variables for anyone to insist on BS taking a course of action the poster to the thread (not the OP) feels is best. After all, we only know what the OP tells us - not the whole story or the "other side." Often, I get a sense folks post here (other than trolls) and don't reveal their faults. Why? Well, some think they are faultless! Others see the clouds and predict different from what others see in the clouds. (not a dig at weather predictors)

In MY case WS came home crying and confessed immediately before I had any word uttered in confrontation (I had evidence) and THAT is (main reason at the time) why I stayed the course. It has been a long time and I think, overall, life would have been less painful if I had taken the walk. Hindsight? Well, Life is good - we worked on OUR issues (I had/still have some) and learned more about each other. Then there is the "balance the scales" - long term - people change and that is why one should never make hasty emotionally charged life-changing decisions. Taking time to work on all the issues is hard when you are emotionally shredded so not being hasty is most appropriate advice.

I think such advice, take some months to assess your choice(s), is that which is most often offered on SI.

Look at how Mr. Walloped made his choice - I think he did the best he could or can.

Then contrast DoneGone - an example of a post where the poster did not "come clean" about themself (at first)
So,

Are you saying that BSes should D in all cases?

Is never good advice.

As BreakingBad said:

For some who are betrayed, there is no going forward. It's a deal breaker. Relationship over.

My advice would have been to Spaceghost0007 - take some time to think over your choice.

And - my post at the beginning - it is the WS trying to minimize via euphemism the damage they have done to the WS.

Angry? At the time no, emotionally hurt, oh yeah.

Angry now? Not really - just irked would be a good word to describe my mental thoughts.

Ah, Hippo, I misunderstood part of your point.

And - my post at the beginning - it is the WS trying to minimize via euphemism the damage they have done to the WS.

I think that any minimization is a red flag. We probably agree on that, whether it's the WS trying to mollify the BS or the BS trying to soothe themself.

Also, I somehow thought you were writing about euphemisms in society in general, not specifically associated with infidelity.

I apologize for my misreading.

Sissoon:

Ever look up how many words in a language? "English" is at the top. (well, dictionary wise)

No wonder communication can be so difficult.

Apologies not needed - especially with anything I write. Want to talk about how Deuterium is used to make Plutonium 239?
I'm your boy. Want to talk about how women think. I was standing behind the door when the invites to that course was offered.
How MOST people think - again, I must have been on a hike in the Sierra Nevada mountains for that invite too.

So that is why I posted so as to get other folks opinion and view.

Words can be your friend, your path to greatness, or your demise. A lot (most?) of us use words not thinking about the long term effect on the listener. We 'assume' the meaning we intend is the meaning the listener will use to interpret our verbalized message.

Then, sometimes the speaker really does not grasp the ramifications of their choice of words to convey their thoughts.

Some folks are blessed with a quick wit and here is one attributed to Winston Churchill:

Churchill on breasts

While being served a cold chicken lunch in America, Churchill asked the hostess: "May I have some breast?"

"Mr Churchill," she replied, "In this country we ask for white meat or dark meat."

The next day Churchill had an orchid delivered to her, along with the message: "I would be obliged if you would pin this on your white meat."

The point for this mention is one must consider the listener when speaking. (that is along discussion!)

So my annoyance with "Sleeping together" is due to MY interpretation that the speaker is working to slant the interpretation of what they did (sex or not) in a minimalist manner - intending to try and diminish the mental harm inflicted on the BS.
Irks the xxxx out of me . . .