SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

... perhaps an informative moment?

Hubs and I didn't socialize much for several years due to the stressors of demanding careers, raising an active family, and honestly, both of our temperaments.

I am a mid-grade introvert.
Hubs is a hard core introvert who has worked hard (and successfully) on reading, picking up on, and reproducing social cues and superficial social niceties, mostly to facilitate navigating the corporate environment. He's good at it when and where he's good at it, both in social and in corporate/business settings. Where he lacks experience, he is immediately and severely out of his depth. Completely naive, and it is obvious, it shows.

We are now both retired and we live in an area largely populated by our same demographic.

We have, over the past few years, begun to socialize both individually and as a couple.

As a couple we have some mutual interests, but we are not and never have been (and never will be) 'joined at the hip.' I have sincerely *no* problem with Hubs attending events and joining in activities without me if I'm not interested in going. And, honestly, after my particularly demanding career I cherish being at home more than almost anything. Hubs is much more about filling his calendar than I am- something I point out to him by way of demonstrating that I am actually the more functional introvert, an idea that he's just not having, lol. Also honestly, now that we wake up, go to sleep and spend almost every day together, a little time apart is a welcomed break for either/both of us. (I personally need at least 10 contiguous minutes in any given day to get a single complete uninterrupted thought from one side of my brain to the other.) Anyway.

We do participate in activities and attend functions together on a fairly regular basis, albeit not every time/every opportunity. And we have both served in positions in various organizations, in various capacities, individually. In that particular aspect, I have stepped way back for various reasons and given Hubs and his positions 'wide berth.'
It's not been a problem.

Every once in a while I show up to various functions that are in Hub's primary domain because that event is of particular interest to me.

Hub's accomplishments in 'corporate charm school' shine in those situations. Bonus round, he's an attractive, fit man, especially for his age and for our demographic. He is conducting his particular function, and no surprise, he's surrounded by giggling and fliratious middle to upper middle aged women for that brief period of time. (I jokingly refer to them as 'The Giggles and Wiggles.') (Parts of them may be jiggling and wiggling in ways they don't intend, LOL.) He handles it appropriately. That particular interlude passes, proceedings proceed, The Giggles and Wiggles return to their spouses, dates, partners, friends, seats, etc. Nothing more comes of it, no harm, no foul. Innocent enough, IMHO. No cause for concern.

We recently had an experience that felt markedly different, *to me.*

We were at a social event in a public venue with mostly couples, a few singles. Hubs knew everyone present and was quite familiar with most of them. I know a handful of them casually at best. I was familiar with most of the couples well enough to recognize them as established couples, there together.
The singles were not a problem, they were not inappropriate at all.

One couple was notable, because, functionally, *they weren't behaving as a couple.*

I was not previously familiar with them.
I would not have *even* understood that they arrived at the party 'together,' and I would not have perceived that they were there 'together,' had Hubs not introduced 'Dave' to me (individually and alone) as 'Barb's husband.'
'Barb' was elsewhere and otherwise occupied.
FOR. THE. ENTIRE. PARTY.
NEVER *ONCE* SAW DAVE AND BARB TOGETHER.

OK. SO.
Different couples have different styles. Per above, Hubs and I are not 'joined at the hip.' Honestly, I would not have thought anything of it, until...

Hubs was off with, ironically, another wife (no issue there at all) accomplishing a mundane task when 'Barb' and 'This Other Dude' somehow ended up conducting their 'thing' pretty much in my lap.
This Other Dude is a Known Player, as in, with a capital 'Player.'
Like, there is *literally* no way one can be a breathing and sentient adult human being and even loosely a part of this local demographic and NOT be aware of it.
This Other Dude strolled in Fashionably Late.
'He walked into the party, like he was walking on board a yacht...'
LOL.
(He wore it well!)

Barb was on This Other Dude like white on rice.
She climbed up him *physically* like a cat climbing up a cat tree.
Like a lineman scaling a utility pole during a major power outage.
Hands everywhere.
You get the picture.
She ended by cupping his face in both hands and stroking his cheeks.

To his credit (for what that's worth, I honestly do not know and won't hazard a guess) This Other Dude did not reciprocate. He stood there for a few minutes, conversing politely, with both of his hands shoved firmly into his jeans pockets.
And then he turned around and left. As in, LEFT.
'He walked out of the party, like he was walking off of a yacht...'
LOL.

While this vignette transpired, Barb's husband Dave sat at a nearby table, within full line of sight, alone.

After This Other Dude left, did Barb join her husband Dave?
Nope.
She melted back into the party at large, leaving Dave sitting alone at his table.

I noted all of it, but at that moment it was not my issue, so none of my business.

A bit later I walked over to the table where Dave was still sitting, alone, to pour a bit for myself out of a 'shareable bottle' that we'd left on that table. (I deliberately partake lightly at these types of social events *for the exact reasons* that I'm laying out here. I've seen this shit before.) As I was pouring myself 'a light one' Dave, who is probably the most genuine introvert of all of us, and who has maybe had a few? I don't know, I haven't been watching, attempts to strike up witty banter with me.

Errrmmm, NO DAVE. I've seen these credits roll at the end of this movie and I want *nothing* to do with it. Sorry, sorry for you, sincerely, but I'm not making it my problem. I was pleasant but I beat a very hasty retreat. WALK AWAY, WHAT A GOOD IDEA!

A bit later, the party was winding down, close to the end. Hubs and I were sitting at a table with two other couples. Out of left field, HERE COMES BARB. She walks up behind Hubs, puts her hand on his upper arm/shoulder, drapes herself across his shoulders and back, and then sort of places herself subtley in between me and my husband, kind of behind/beside his shoulder. And then, she just sort of stands there, smiling like the cat that ate the canary.

Everybody ignored her.
Hubs did not reciprocate.
Dave sat at his table, again within full line of sight, alone.
Eventually, she just sort of wandered off.

By this moment I was all, "DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!!!"

NOW, TO MY PERSONAL ISSUE:

Since that moment (starting on the way home, actually) I've been trying to wave Hubs off of 'Barb and Dave.'
IMHO, Barb and Dave are a toxic stew, a hot mess.
STEER CLEAR.
MAKE POLITE EXCUSES AND DISENGAGE.
QUICKLY.

*sigh*
Hubs, in his FOO baked, perpetually people pleasing, 'don't make waves' naivete:

"That's just Barb and Dave. They are two peas in a pod."
Me: You *cannot* prove 'two peas in a pod' based on what I witnessed, not by my definition. If it works for them, then good for them.
Theirs is not a relationship/couple dynamic with which I am comfortable. I do not welcome it into my or into our world.

"Well that's just Barb!"
Me: "Well then Barb is just inappropriate, and she is NOT happening here."

Hubs: UBER DEFENSIVE.

Here's the thing:

I do NOT believe at this point that there's *anything* between Hubs and Barb. And if there is, good riddance to both of them, sincerely. I'm not going to waste one precious moment of life on *that.* Have fun being 'Dave,' Boo! BTW, Dave is equally fit, intellectual, educated, smart and physically attractive.

First impressions, obvs, and what do I know? Obvs there's a LOT that I do not know...
... but IMHO Barb is a self absorbed twit.
There. I said it. LOL.
RUN, DAVE, RUN!!! LOL.
(He could, too; he has a runner's physique.)

Hubs and I have been here before, not many times, but it has happened a handful of times over the decades of this marriage with women who were and/or who chose to be intrusive, boundary challenging, boundary busting, inappropriate.
Every. single. time. it. has. happened. Hubs has argued vociferously for those women's absolutely, pure as the driven snow, virtuous nigh unto virginal absolute innocence in flesh, in spirit, and in intent.

It was always *my* problem: I was ill informed, I jumped to conclusions, I was/am insecure, I am damaged, I'm an idiot, Hubs *absolutely knows* these women/couples/people better than I do. They, and he, are healthier, more appropriate, more balanced than me.
Every. single. time.
Hubs knows better than me.
And so do those other women/other people.

And every time, some shit shook out, sooner or later, from circumstances, from additional information, from other people, that said that I wasn't wrong.

Those particular women may not have been Evil Incarnate but they weren't altogether healthy or wholesome either. I do not see danger around every curve nor behind every bush but damn it, red flags are red flags and I AM NOT BLIND.

AND SUZY CREAM CHEESE ISN'T WEARING BLEACHED WHITE IVORY SNOW AUTOCLAVED HERMETICALLY SEALED BLOOMERS JUST BECAUSE THIS IS DOING SOMETHING FOR YOU, BE THAT SOMETHING A HARMLESS FLIRTATION, CASUAL ATTENTION, VALIDATION OR SIMPLE PEOPLE PLEASING SOCIAL LUBRICANT.

AFAIK none of these incidents resulted in inappropriate contact, but it was a hella lot of unproductive stress and bullshit THAT. WE. DID. NOT. NEED.

TL;DR: GAH! DUDE, INAPPROPRIATE!!!

P.S.: For a solid 85% of the event in which the entire venue and 'our crowd' was within my line of sight, I did not notice Barb 'climbing up' nor 'draping herself' over other men nor other husbands (older, shorter, less fit, less attractive, more portly, etc.)...

...AFAIK, only This Other Dude and MY HUSBAND. GAH.

People are the worst. This boundary busting behavior shit was exactly like my ex friend T exhibited to all the decently in shape married men in our group. My husband thought she was just out going and fun… then she revealed to me her A she had with her gym trainer after hearing about mine from a mutual friend. She wanted me to keep it secret from my H… hmm.. wonder why now beyond the basic shame every WS feels if they pull their head out of their ass.

Anyway, I thought better of it and told my H right away. And told her BH’s best friend when it was clear a few months later (and her cutting me off for telling my H) that she had not told her BH.

Well… her BH’s bestie told T to tell BH or he would.

Guess who got the, "hope you’re happy now that you wrecked my family" text.

No regrets losing that friendship.

Oh, and my H does agree that she’s a hot mess but took longer than necessary to come to that conclusion

I understand why the defensiveness got to you. Like why is it so hard for him to say, "Yup, what Barb did was creepy and made me uncomfortable, and yeah, I'd like to avoid social settings with her and Dave." My WS goes on at length about me being judgemental, too, but sometimes judgement is warranted!

I enjoyed your description, LOL at the Giggles and Wiggles! And no, your eyes are not playing tricks on you. There are women like this and it seems men will tend to minimize when such a woman acts that way around them, probably because that behavior makes them feel more studly in the social setting, or whatever.

The old songs of the 1960's had a lot of memorable lyrics, and to me, your story confirms one classic:

"If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife..." (or a handsome man your husband)!

Typos...

[This message edited by Superesse at 3:09 AM, Friday, April 12th]

I don’t know what the hell I just read, but I was definitely entertained!

"I understand why the defensiveness got to you. Like why is it so hard for him to say, "Yup, what Barb did was creepy and made me uncomfortable, and yeah, I'd like to avoid social settings with her and Dave." My WS goes on at length about me being judgemental, too, but sometimes judgement is warranted!"

^^^THIS, EXACTLY.

Ironically, as a feature to his personal brand of introversion, Hubs does NOT enjoy being randomly touched or handled in social settings, even innocently/ especially innocently. 'Touchy feely' and physically clingy people, even women (and most touchy/feelies are women) who are genuinely not flirting, make him uncomfortable.

I do understand and agree with him that he did absolutely *nothing* to attract Barb's attention or to invite her overtures. I was there and he speaks the truth. Hubs did nothing wrong.

"Oh, and my H does agree that she’s a hot mess but took longer than necessary to come to that conclusion."

*sigh*

Why does it take *forever* and very nearly an act of God???

My best guess is that if the guy has no agenda/intent, if the idea never crossed *his* mind, then obviously that sweet lady has no nefarious motives either. I would hazard a guess that most men have zero clue about how conniving and deliberate women really are. There must be a corollary: the more innocent the dude, the more innocent he assumes women are. LOLOL that's actually hilarious, really, until it's not. 🙄

Hubs has absolutely no such delusions about men. He wastes NO time in waving me off and/or physically placing himself in between me and any guy who sets off his creeper vibe radar. I pay attention and follow his lead, too (lol just like I did with our dog.) It doesn't happen that often and I trust his instincts. He is typically spot on.

In the reciprocal situation, it takes him *forever* to hear what I am saying, to see what I see.

I guess there's some basic biology in play here as well: on average, women are physically smaller than men and cannot physically 'force' anything. And let's face it, if a guy isn't interested, nothing's gonna happen. So from where Hubs sits, nothing's gonna happen, so no risk, no danger, no harm, no foul, no need to change course or to make waves.

Meanwhile I'm seeing red flags and silently seething at the boundary incursion, which Hubs doesn't see or consider worth noting because, DUH! NOTHING'S GONNA HAPPEN HERE.

"There are women like this and it seems men will tend to minimize when such a woman acts that way around them, probably because that behavior makes them feel more studly in the social setting, or whatever."

This, and per above, if the dude is flattered but not really interested he just doesn't take it seriously. See: "DUH! NOTHING'S GONNA HAPPEN HERE!"

It takes Hubs at least three plutonium half lives to understand that

1. I am being fundamentally disrespected and my and our boundaries are being trampled or are at risk of being trampled, and

2. Women can make guys appear complicit in their 'innocent flirtations' even if the dude has zero actual interest, is merely flattered or is simply being polite. And that right there is BS and complications that no couple needs.

Again, I think it's that 'No real risk here, so no harm, no foul' thing.

I honestly believe that guys have nearly no awareness of boundary incursions happening between women, or boundary incursions aimed at them from women, nothing like their sensitivity to boundary incursions involving other men.

"I don’t know what the hell I just read, but I was definitely entertained!"

LOL, thanks! 😊

It's all very fascinating, really, and even amusing,

Until it becomes annoying, lol. 🙄

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 12:15 PM, Friday, April 12th]

'A Thing' occured to me this afternoon.

Hubs' lone sexual indiscretion was with a complete stranger, way way outside of our everyday lives and marriage.
It was truly an exception.
In terms of concrete, ongoing, life changing impact, honestly, it was of minimal importance.

That doesn't mean that 'it never happened.'
Doesn't mean that it was of 'no importance,' especially because it happened at all, especially since it happened when and how it did.

I am at this juncture reminded of the briefest passage (perhaps one sentence) in Stephen King's novel, 'Pet Sematary,' in which King references his protagonist's, the husband and father in the story, "one visit to a prostitute in Chicago" a few years earlier than the current story line. Everything in that novel is *apparently* copacetic, lovely in fact.

Until it isn't.

Husband's one excursion over the physical, sexual line was *exactly that.*
One. Time. AFAIK.
Such an amazing and informative juxtaposition and oxymoron.
FOO Baked In.
It's all very hierarchetal, rules and regs, 'how we do things,' 'appearances,' until it's not, then it's 'the things we do in the dark.'

Honestly, AFAIK, this is/was the only excursion over that particular line, that physical, sexual line.

But, IMHO, as King attempted to illustrate in 'Pet Sematary,' we've been fielding and coping with copious and endless emotional, psychological and infrastructure bids against our marriage for years, decades, before and after that potentially fatal blow.
From family, 'friends,' employers, the world at large, the usual suspects.
They were not necessarily standing in line to violate a particular sexual, physical boundary, although some certainly were.
All were here and cued up because they were 'takers.'
ALL of them.
I swear, they stood in line to take numbers, then they stood in line to cash in their tickets.

The fact that the physical, sexual line was crossed at all demonstrates the willingness and capacity and selfishness and self absorption and availability to go there, to reach out and grab the shiny, transient object, and in the process, crack and break the precious diamond at the very core of the marriage...
The one *primal element* that makes *this* relationship *different* from any other relationship in your life...

Hub's 'excursion':
It was 'transient.'
It was 'ephemeral.'
Ergo it wasn't really 'real,' right???
Except, it was. =(
It delivered a potentially fatal blow.
The reason it was NOT 'a fatal blow'?
ME.
ME.
ME.
May I say that again?
ME.

*I* threw myself onto the grenade that my husband lobbed into the house, my effort on behalf of our children, and on behalf of my (idiot, immature, WTF? FAFO behavior from) Hubs himself.

In return, I have received:

A husband that has not 'partaken' of other women sexually unless we are legit and full transparency 'playing together.'
Fair enough.
Honestly, excellent enough in that area.
No complaints.

Also, and...

although many of the 'bids' against our life, our lives, our marriage, have been truncated by the passage of time,
They continued to occur.
They continue to occur. Even now.

For a long period in our 'middle years,' those bids were not about overt sex.

They were about 'contiguous females' in our lives, bidding against *our/my actual life.*
Relatives, coworkers, friends, even acquaintances.

I lost *BIG TIME* during (and even after) those years.
I lost things *I will never get back.*
I will *never* get over it.
I will die with that loss.
I will die with it.

I was *never* allowed to be a wife in my life.
I was *never* allowed to be a mother.
I was *never* allowed, even recently, to be a grandmother.
Even *that* was stolen from me.
Stolen.
I'm quite sure that the fools who FAFO'd in that arena are figuring it out now.
Good luck to y'all.

In the most recent time:
we are once again moving into the time and the space where and when random women are making random (or perhaps targeted, hell if I know) bids on my personal space, *our personal space,* on our marriage.
(And yeah, IT. IS. SEXUAL. I've witnessed it. I'm not blind, nor stupid, nor naive.)
(If you are, Hubs, that's gonna be your problem. But honestly, I do not for *one moment* believe that you are that blind, nor stupid, nor naive. You know what's going on. FOR GOD'S SAKE, GROW THE FUCK UP ALREADY. LET ME REST. I HAVE EARNED IT.)

I have NO. PATIENCE. FOR. IT.
EXPLAIN IT, AGAIN???
WHY???
WHY SHOULD *I* HAVE *THE LEAST BIT OF PATIENCE FOR THEM?*
YOUR INABILITY TO RECOGNIZE THE RED FLAGS OF BOUNDARY BREACHES AT THIS LATE DATE IN YOUR LIFE IS NOT MY FAULT, CERTAINLY. I'VE BEEN SPELLING THIS OUT AD NAUSEAM *FOREVER.*
BAKED. IN. FOO. FOR. YOU.
SRSLY.
You either need to:
a. Go home and live with your narcissistic mother until she dies at age 180 yrs old, or,
b. Go hook up with one or more of those 'bidders' and figure out for yourself what *that's* all about.

GAH. I AM TIRED OF THIS.

And now We Are, at The End of Days.

/endrant

marriageredux, those are some epic rants, and I feel you.

No, you should not have to explain again and again. No, you should not have to be policing his every move and pointing out when he allows other women to cross your boundaries. We can keep using "should" about all these things, and you are 100% justified and correct in saying and feeling these things.

But at the end of the day, as common wisdom says, we can only control ourselves. I have to fight (hard) to DETACH - Don't Even Think About Changing Him. So what are WE going to do about this? What is within OUR control? This is where more burden is placed on us (totally unfair, but what in life is fair), and we have to take charge. Draw up some boundaries with consequences that we must enforce. Ultimately, we can only protect ourselves. Sometimes that means walking away from our WS or taking some in-house time apart so that they feel the consequences of their actions. Like children, they won't change unless they feel the pain. Our pain is not enough.

Thank you, sincerely and thank you for reading that epic screed. LOL. Epic indeed!

I came back here with half a mind to edit my last post to something along the lines of,

"TL;DR: I find other women's bids for my husband's attention triggering AF, and not for the obvious reasons."

Writing out that screed here kept me from dumping it on Hubs (again) which would have been hugely unproductive and likely damaging to both of us. So in that aspect, it was useful.

Honestly, Hubs has made and continues to make both huge efforts and huge improvements in his boundaries and in the boundaries around our marriage.

IMHO it began and persists in the FOO.

Husband's parents could not and cannot tolerate their children having boundaries even as adults with marriages and families of their own.

As a result, Husband's siblings as grown adults are completely enmeshed with their elderly parents. The siblings have been unable to sustain marriages of their own. There is a statistically stunning to damned near improbable number of marriages and divorces in Hub's original nuclear FOO. Hubs' parents marriage and our marriage are the only 'first marriages' that persisted and the only marriages to date that didn't end in divorce. (Jury may still be out on the latest marriage, not sure. Might still be intact, we're not 'in the loop' so I don't know, but I can tell you this for sure: that marriage was/is toast, statistically, before the ink dried on the license.) The only marriage that 'matters,' that is respected, is the parents' marriage. In a truly Freudian twist, the parents' wedding anniversaries are celebrated and feted by their children like high holy days, with the children sparing no expense. OMG you would not believe.

I have often had the impression that Hubs' parents resent our long term marriage, like somehow we are showing them up, or competing with them for primacy and centrality, or by our very existence, making Hubs' siblings 'look bad.'

The complete absence of boundaries with the parents, the parents' insistence on being permanent, lifelong authority figures well into their children's adult years, and their insistence on unquestioned primacy and centrality, was always couched in glowing terms as admirable qualities:

duty, responsibility, respect, honor,loyalty, and ironically, maturity.

'Love' was *extremely* conditional, totally dependent on how well you performed your duty and met your responsibility towards the parents.

Failure to meet their expectations and demands in the least way, even for perfectly reasonable things like work schedules (not their fault that you are required to work on holidays, etc) was met with instant anger, derision, contempt, and a direct effort at punishment, which was cringe worthy, ridiculous and honestly embarrassing on their behalf, given that we were grown adults.

Husband's mother in particular had to be mollicoddled in every way, had to have her way with any and every thing she cared about (and don't bother her with things she didn't care about.)

Husband's father insisted on it because his life was hell otherwise. If Mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy. It was such an ingrained standard that it was simply never questioned, no matter how ridiculous or unreasonable or inappropriate the demands.

Hubs grew into Adulthood as a people pleaser with no concept of healthy boundaries and some really screwed up perceptions of autonomy.

He rebeled quietly, refused to become enmeshed, and accomplished this Herculean feat by honing his own personal brand of appeasement and avoidance to perfection. In this manner, we could keep them at arm's distance more or less, much of the time- but not all of the time.

I am beginning to understand that I have a Pavlovian reaction to anyone, but especially to women, making bids (and especially inappropriate or questionable bids, even if they are not personal, sexual or romantic) against Hubs.

My brain processes it as an impending loss- I'm about it lose something, again- and I go into 'fight or flight' mode.

I have to work through that before I can even begin to have rational, objective thought.

For his part, Hubs acknowledged on his own that his initial response of, "Well that's just Barb" was him slipping into a well worn pattern of avoidance, and not helpful.

I do believe that was a 'superficial' slip up, something of a habitual response.

Hubs is cognizant enough of his damage and previously dysfunctional coping methods that he is almost hyper vigilant about boundaries now.

Logistically we are unlikely to interact with Barb and Dave enough to have problems with them. Upon rational consideration, I'm confident that if problems occur, Hubs will handle it appropriately.

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 12:16 AM, Sunday, April 14th]

I agree: That was an epic rant, gorgeously written.

I don't think Hubs is defending the women. I think he's defending himself. It's easier to put it on you, that you're insecure, jumping to conclusions, whatever, than to own that he has shit boundaries and that these women are predators. Emotional vampires. Maybe because he's embarrassed that one of them snared him and he wasn't smart enough to evade them? I can't imagine the gall it takes to derisively say that you're jumping to conclusions because you're damaged, when he's the one who inflicted the damage. Jesus H Roosevelt Christ.

I used to play roller derby. One night at an afterparty, I noticed a woman talking to my H and his friend for quite a while. She was short so I could see H's face. He wasn't into her, his friend wasn't into her, but they were enjoying the attention and weren't telling her to go away. I was all pumped up on badass derby energy, having just danced my ass off with my teammates after an especially satisfying victory, so I sidled up behind her and hip-checked her. Not very nice of me, but oh so satisfying. Maybe try that next time. (JK, JK)

LOL, hip check, adding that one to my arsenal. Good one!

We've not done the blame shifting, 'It's YOUR problem!' for some years now. *That* was a feature of our early marriage, when Hubs thought his boundaries were just fine, thank you very much, and he was actually basking in the glow of how his shit boundaries had been 're-imagined' by the FOO. All of that duty,obligation, responsibility, loyalty, honor and maturity surely meant that he was A MAN!

Fortunately and also unfortunately the shit boundaries extended far beyond the FOO,and of course various persons and entities took full advantage of them. Hubs collected obligations and responsibilities like awards. Huge ego boost. He not only was A MAN, he was THE MAN!

Eventually it became overwhelming and predictably both of us burned out, it took years and a LOT of wear and tear on both of us and our marriage, but it taught Hubs about his shit boundaries and other people more than years of therapy ever could.

As far as being oblivious to women's intentions, I think that was mostly youth and inexperience and naivete. It took a solid dose of life to beat that out of him, because, after all, he was THE MAN! LOL.

I'm sure he enjoyed the attention too.

I consider myself fortunate because those situations never progressed beyond passing flattery and superficial flirting. I was also fortunate in that in very nearly every case I remember, some corroboration and/or additional information came out about said women. I wasn't wrong, my gut feelings weren't 'off,' I wasn't imagining things, and Hubs had to eat a good bit of crow.

This recent situation with Barb and Dave, when Hubs said that he was "more accepting of the human condition" and that I was being judgemental, yeah, that opened old wounds and I will admit, I saw red.

After about a week of 'discussions' LOL Hubs put a couple of things together in his brain and came to a different conclusion.

He had previously been around Barb and Dave in task oriented settings where no alcohol was served and the agenda revolved around the task. Barb was the typical 'huggy hello' person and nothing more. There wasn't any place to go or any reason for Barb to wander away from Dave.

Hubs wasn't present when Barb climbed all over This Other Dude at the party like a cat in a Christmas tree.

Hubs was filtering my description of what happened with This Other Dude through the lens of his previous experiences with Barb did Dave, and he wasn't really hearing me.

When he finally slowed his roll enough to realize he he'd never before been around Barb when alcohol was served, Barb had never put her arm around him before, much less draped herself around him and then proceeded to just stand there like that, yeah that was weird and he was uncomfortable with it beyond his typical discomfort with being 'handled,'

He was also ready to slow down his brain and his presumptions and actually *hear* my description and the interlude with This Other Dude.

He agrees with me: cringe worthy.

In the end I believe it's going to be 'much ado about nothing.'

Great warning shot across the bow about Barb though, that could be useful, and lots of good insights and feedback on ourselves and our relationship.

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 12:26 AM, Sunday, April 14th]

Ok, to illustrate a few previous points, I'm going to pull an Oldie But Goodie out of The Vault.

True story from our early relationship and then early marriage.

Hubs and I began dating in college.

We dated off and on throughout college, mostly on.

We were married one year after we were graduated.

We were the first married in our college social circle, and the first to have children.

We took a *lot* of 'first' hits, plus we were very young and very broke.

If we'd had any idea how young and how broke we were, we would have been terrified, lol.

While enrolled in college, we became acquainted with a very attractive young lady that we'll call 'Beth.'

Beth was dating a guy on Hubs' dorm.

We both found Beth to be a gorgeous (GOD, WEREN'T WE ALL BACK THEN???) but completely unassuming, modest, friendly, easy going, polite and charming young woman, a true joy to be around.

We all were graduated within a year or two of each other and as was more typical back then, we launched into life pretty much immediately and without an excess of ceremony or dalliance.

Not sure what happened between Beth and the guy she was dating on Hubs' dorm, but the next time we caught up with Beth, they were way before no longer a couple.

Beth was now employed with a great corporate job.

Beth was now married to a very good looking, well educated, well spoken, confident guy who also had a great job, and was built like a *very* in shape NFL offensive lineman.

Obvs played football in college *and* went to class *and* was graduated with honors type of thing.

You get the picture.

Beth herself had changed.

Beth had *always* been a beautiful young woman, but now she was *exquisite.*

Beth had several natural features that made her stand out; I will not renumerate them here because they are distinctive.

In the interim between graduation and 'getting back together' Beth had lost the 10 to 20 pounds of dorm/dining hall weight, gotten her 'colors done,' gotten herself 'styled,' invested in a classic but very flattering wardrobe of clothes, jewelry and accessories, invested in high end but understated and subtle cosmetics, all of it quite upscale and tasteful.

Absolutely the *only* 'edgy' or even remotely 'out there' thing she did was she adopted the habit of showing up in a very classy and classic wardrobe, with understated makeup and just the right combination and amount of jewelry and accessories, wearing a classic tailored silk or satin blouse, not too loud, not too low cut...

... and no bra.

Given that she'd lost the college weight, we were all still young, and she'd not yet had kids, she was still 'perky' and yeah, it was quite effective.

Honestly, she wore it well.

And honestly, she was stunning. Breathtaking. Could have been signed as a model without even trying. Surprised that she wasn't.

I had a college roommate who did the exact same thing, silk/satin blouse/no bra, to good effect.

She was notorious for it, in fact.

It worked for her.

I personally never adopted that particular hack.

I have no problem with it.

I was svelte and fit for years, decades.

I wore a bikini, a bona fide bikini, well into my fifties.

I went bra-less in outfits that required it due to construction.

I had a breast lift at age 59. I still go bra-less on occasion, when the outfit calls for it.

For whatever reason, I was never into the randomly somewhat exposed nipple as a calling card.

I do NOT and never have worn padded nor lined bras, it's not a point of overt modesty...

... I just seemed to gravitate toward decent foundations as part of my fashion sense.

Anyway.

As I said, Hubs and I were beta adopters on adulting.

We were married with kids when the rest of our college social circle was moving into engagement rings and parties, bridal showers and weddings.

For about 1.5 to 2 years we were inundated with those invitations and events.

We repeatedly attended events that were also attended by chic, polished, urbane, sophisticated, exquisite, bra-less Beth and her equally superlative and bra-less husband, in rapid succession.

I did not begrudge Beth her appearance.

More power to her.

I was in a completely different place in life and I knew it.

I was simply happy to show up *anywhere* without leaky boobs, baby food (or baby poop) in my hair or on my clothes, bathed and fully dressed, and without a pacifier or a rectal thermometer in my pocket.

Furthermore, I was a young and attractive woman in my own right, and at a basic level, I was confident in that.

Beth's appearance was not the problem.

Beth's behavior was.

The other half of Beth's post graduate transformation was her behavior.

She had metamorphisized from a sweet friend into a full blown, aggressive, over the top flirt.

Other people's husbands seemed to be her specialty.

We'd been through several rounds with Beth and her Social Shenanigans when we attended yet another wedding.

Somehow, at the reception, we got socially 'stuck' with Beth and her husband.

In hindsight, that was probably not so random.

Everybody else had likely gotten the memo and had made themselves scarce from that scene.

Hubs and I were too far removed via our drastic change in lifestyle, and too exhausted and distracted to notice the change in the social weather.

We got left with 'the problem couple.'

Everybody else headed for the hills.

*gallop gallop gallop*

Predictably, Beth was in full effect that evening.

Not to be trumped or denied, she was pouring on...

...to my husband.

Of course.

Talk about some 'giggles and wiggles.'

And direct eye contact.

*bat bat bat flutter flutter flutter eyelashes*

And 'close conversation.'

Like, hands on arms, arms linked through elbows, bra-less nearly bare boobs pressed against biceps, etc.

I was dumbstruck.

I was standing there, totally silent and clueless as to how to respond.

I guess I figured, like a well-trained dog, that the best thing to do, when faced with foreign and un-intelligible social cues, is to simply shut up and sit.

Hubs was twitterpated.

And delighted.

And clueless.

Eventually, NFL Quality Offensive Linebacker Educated Well Spoken Well Employed Beth Husband found his footing and found his voice.

He pivoted in the situation and started trying to flirt *with me.*

I was standing there like Country Mouse, still half wondering if I had baby drool on my shoulder.

Oh please, Dude, STAAAAAHP.

We both know, we *all* know, that you are not *the least bit* interested in me.

Don't insult what's left of my dignity.

I am not your, nor your wife's, foil.

That little scene disintegrated not too much later.

Hubs and I moved on and shortly thereafter, festivities wrapped up.

I ran into another wife, a mutual friend, before we all disbanded for the evening.

I will admit that I pretty much unloaded on her about Beth and her antics. I'd had *enough.*

I'm sure that this woman was not ready for that and I honestly do not remember how she responded in the moment.

Hubs somehow caught wind of that; perhaps he overheard it, perhaps I told him, perhaps someone else told him. I do not remember.

Anyway, by the time we got home, or certainly by the next day, Hubs was *livid* about it.

HOW DARE I IMPUGN THAT INNOCENT ANGEL???

WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER???

SHE'S DONE *NOTHING* WRONG!!!

I MUST CALL THIS OTHER WIFE AND RETRACT MY SLANDEROUS STATEMENTS *IMMEDIATELY* IF NOT SOONER!!!

We argued so stridently about that for at least a week that I finally decided to 'be the bigger person,' call the other wife and retract my 'slanderous statements,' just to shut Hubs the fuck up about 'THAT INNOCENT ANGEL!!!' OMG. GAH. AGAIN.

WELL GUESS THE FUCK WHAT HAPPENED WHEN I CALLED, LOLOLOL???

Other Wife not only corroborated with her and her husband's own experiences with Beth and Beth's husband, remarkably similar LOLOL, but she also shared several other friends, wives, couples, remarkably similar experiences.

LOLOLOL.

No apology nor retraction necessary, nor even appropriate.

Yeah. Other Wife unloaded *on me.*

LOLOL.

Early on in that phone conversation, I held the phone away from my ear/face so that Hubs could hear that glorious unload real time, straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.

Yeah, Hubs ate crow that day.

The last I heard, decades ago, Beth had gotten pregnant and had a baby with Offensive Linebacker Husband.

Reportedly, that motherhood experience 'settled her down.'

I wouldn't know; I never followed up.

WALK AWAY, WHAT A GOOD IDEA!

Unfortunately, Hubs has evidently *NOT* lost his tendencies to tilt against windmills a la' Don Quiote on behalf of the honor of those blameless, Innocent Angels.

OMG. LOL. WTF.

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 4:38 PM, Sunday, April 14th]