SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I recently stumbled across a speaker who asserted basically that people with abandonment issues and stay are actually less afraid of the other person leaving and more afraid of abandoning themselves when they are gone.

I can’t really settle on if I agree with that or not. My impression of abandonment issues is that there is past trauma that brings that on. However, it makes sense when you put it in the context of how we talk about focusing on yourself during recovery/early reconciliation.

And I will add on a personal level, I do think I have not been confident that I would be able to handle some of the things on my own. After decades of being with someone, you forget how much is divided that you willl have to I have to pick up. But I can’t classify that as fear of abandonment.

Anyway, this keeps rolling around as a concept that I neither dismiss or accept. It would be interesting if anyone has insight that supports this or eradicates the validity.

less afraid of the other person leaving and more afraid of abandoning themselves when they are gone

What does this mean? Abandoning themselves when they are gone?

I have abandonment issues from childhood that has made this trauma way bigger than I ever could have imagined.

more afraid of abandoning themselves when they are gone

Can you please talk more about what this means?

Edit to add: Owe me a Coke! - to Groot

[This message edited by InkHulk at 8:58 PM, Wednesday, April 24th]

Ink hulk

Glad I wasn’t the only one that had questions.
I read it like 4 times trying to make sure I wasn’t just dumb lol. My brain was just spinning.

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 9:08 PM, Wednesday, April 24th]

There was not a lot of detail given. But I assume it means won’t take care of yourself in "all the ways".

Like for example, some people contemplate suicide. I think would qualify because you are saying you aren’t worthwhile without the other person.

For me, a lesser example might be- at the time I was most contemplating divorce was this recurring thought that I won’t make myself do things that are good for me. Like eating well, or keeping a good schedule. Getting out and meeting people,etc. leaving myself to rot. Letting things go that will make my quality of life better.

But I think it could also mean not showing up for one’s own healing and keeping the focus on the feelings of being abandoned by them.

It’s kind of why I am asking because I am not really sure I contextualize it properly and therefor can’t completely grasp it.

It was part of a longer talk on staying too long.

I too have abandonment issues from neglect and abuse but my self abandonment issues have historically been more detrimental (people pleasing, going along to get along, not being mindful of my wants and needs, etc)

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:33 PM, Wednesday, April 24th]

I once heard an interview where the topic was PTSD in soldiers who have lost comrades in war. One case was discussed where the soldier felt shame in letting go of memories, including intrusive ones, of comrades who had died. The young man felt at some level that if he let go the friends would be truly lost and it would be a betrayal by him, and by the universe. But the holding on so tight was maintaining the pathology.

That’s my memory of it anyway.

My childhood went from one I liked to one I didn’t much, aged about 10. The catalyst was my Dad cheating. My Mum’s drinking tanked the rest.

I have always harbored a fear, even an expectation, that things would fall apart again.

I have always expected I would cope. I’m pretty sure I would. I might even do better, if I divorced.

But like the soldier I felt letting go was an insult to what should have been, and if I wasn’t holding on, no one else would and it would all be for nothing.

When I read this post, my first reading of self-abandonment, was of abandoning that part of myself that would do what was necessary to keep the good stuff alive, rather than chasing the next thing (like my Dad did, I guess).

I think my first impression of this is someone is trying to be too clever. Yes, we talk about being ok with ourselves, and that is important. But if we take that SO far that we start talking like our relationships with others are inconsequential and just proxies for our relationship with ourselves, I think that is flat wrong. Like StraightUp, I had a good life in my childhood that was stripped away by cheating and drinking. I feel I was abandoned by my father. And that matters, independent of my relationship with myself. I’m sure it complicated my inner life, but it is important in my story. We fear losing the people we love, being abandoned by them, if for no other reason that it hurts like a mother fucker. I won’t claim to know all why that is, but saying it is only because I will fail to take care of myself, that seems like a weak explanation to me, like someone got excited about a play on words. Just my thoughts.

Ink - So I can see what you are saying. But I feel like you are talking about attachment/connection and how do you have it without being all in? You don’t. But then infidelity happened and now being all in would be detrimental to you. Some people with abandonment issues would double down and still put keeping the relationship as most important.

I think someone with healthy attachment might have that as a very early response But it won’t last. They won’t accept the behaviors that typically follow and they will 180 or they will detach. Some will still watch and wait because there are things they would like not to have to give up, some will divorce, but they will operate in ways that support themselves over the relationship.

Others will put aside their need to have stability and honesty in the relationship so that the other person doesn’t leave. They will go along with the abuse, the disrespect sometimes even for years on end. They won’t bring up their pain or force requirements. So the person is self abandoning already, because of that they may unconsciously feel they can’t rely on themselves.

No one likes to lose someone, it is painful- which is kind of what I think you are speaking to. But people with abandonment issues it’s like the worst thing imaginable. I think that because like many others on this site there was this moment in my journey where I decided I was going to be happy no matter what it looks like. I placed importance enough on myself as a person that I was no longer invested in the outcome, I was more interested in feeling better and I think that’s when I healed a lot of those fears.

Everyone needs connection, it’s a natural and healthy need. But if you have neglect/abuse/abandonment or whatever led to your issues, then it could dictate your behavior. When we say things like "my marriage is horrible he is doing nothing to help me heal" and the response is being afraid to keep upsetting your ws for fear they will leave, that sounds like someone with abandonment issues.

I am certain attachment and connection are important to most people. I just think that in a person with abandonment issues it’s a need that is kind of on steroids. It’s kind of the root of codependency, right? Don’t make too many waves. I have seen people here many times not wanting to bring up their feelings of the affair because they fear pushing the ws away. When I look at that fear, they truly need the ws to survive. It might be financially, but more often it seems like it’s more emotionally.

This is not to shame anyone at all. I have had my dance with this for years. It’s how I was a people pleaser, and self abandoned until I hated everything about my life. So why would I feel I could rely on myself beyond my marriage?

I think it’s more than being clever, but I do think it’s oversimplifying. Still when you boil It down, it’s a line between understanding your worth and having your own back or making the relationship more important. And when you make your relationships more important than your well being then it has to erode your confidence that you will look after yourself when the relationship ends. And then it becomes a loop until you decide to stop self abandoning, and then maybe you can remove the fear of not looking after yourself after the relationship ends? I end that with a question mark because I am very much still chewing on how this all relates to each other.

When I read this post, my first reading of self-abandonment, was of abandoning that part of myself that would do what was necessary to keep the good stuff alive, rather than chasing the next thing (like my Dad did, I guess).

Agree, the heart of this is taking responsibility for one’s own happiness, and self abandonment is when that doesn’t happen.

I don’t think it happens just during a break up, it’s an ongoing pattern that builds into your life.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:55 PM, Thursday, April 25th]

I once heard an interview where the topic was PTSD in soldiers who have lost comrades in war. One case was discussed where the soldier felt shame in letting go of memories, including intrusive ones, of comrades who had died. The young man felt at some level that if he let go the friends would be truly lost and it would be a betrayal by him, and by the universe. But the holding on so tight was maintaining the pathology.

Looks like Indian Country by Philip Caputo, if I remember the novel correctly. I'm a Caputo fan, though his novels are about terrible actions and events, so I read him sparingly.

*****

IDK ... 'abandonment' is, I think, a metaphor, so there are lots of ways of interpreting it. 'Fear of abandoning oneself' is even more metaphorical, IMO. The speaker really owed it to his audience to clarify what he meant.

*****

I grew up fearing abandonment, but my fear is very different from what others relate about their own fears. I think there are lots of ways to experience the fear. A fear of abandonment can come from many sources.

The fear, for me, is a matter of how I experienced my upbringing. I think that no objective observer would think my fear comes from accurately assessing my life, but the symptoms were clear - I feared abandonment despite no desire by my parents to abandon or abuse me.

Fear of abandonment is in the body of the person who fears; it doesn't have to be an objective fact. Alcoholism, abuse, leaving ... these are all objective facts, but despite the many strengths in children, they know so little that they can easily misinterpret their experiences....

*****

I think part of my adaptation has been not to abandon myself but to discount what others will do for me, if only I asked. That is, my adaptation is to do things on my own, even when help is available and, well, potentially very helpful.

You can twist words around and view that 'abandoning myself', but that's a stretch too far for me. It's not myself I abandoned.

*****

I resolved my fear of abandonment in therapy as an adult. I don't remember how I did that, unfortunately. The funny thing is that I actually was abandoned in the A (as was every other BS). If I hadn't resolved the fear, the A might have ended sooner, since the fear would have reared its head that would have increased the pressure on my W, since both ow and I would have been demanding more time with and from my W.

I recently stumbled across a speaker who asserted basically that people with abandonment issues and stay are actually less afraid of the other person leaving and more afraid of abandoning themselves when they are gone.

Isn't that a facet of codependency. That they rely on others to define who they are, therefore they fear losing who they are when they are abandoned.

[This message edited by grubs at 3:39 PM, Thursday, April 25th]

I think I agree. People with abandonment issues aren't really attached to the particular person. They are attached to having a person. People who are confident in and with themselves don't worry about other people leaving them because they know they can rely on themselves. So, fear of being abandoned or being alone is really a lack of trust in oneself. If you trust yourself, nothing anyone else does can knock you down.

Grubs- yes, I associate this all back to codependency/lack of boundaries.

Coco- wow long time no see! Yes, that is how I would see it too. It’s become my mantra that our relationship with ourselves is reflected in every relationship we have. If you give yourself love, you can give and receive it: if you give yourself compassion or respect, you have it for others.

I believe we process everything with how consciousness or unconscious we are of needing these things to be given to ourselves. If you are mindful of your boundaries, it’s because you are conscious of your wants and needs. And by being aware of my own boundaries helps me recognize the boundaries of others.

So it makes sense that if we self abandon we fear it from others.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:49 PM, Thursday, April 25th]

I recently stumbled across a speaker who asserted basically that people with abandonment issues and stay are actually less afraid of the other person leaving and more afraid of abandoning themselves when they are gone.

Not sure I can muster the best terminology to explain myself, but this first jumps out at me as unnecessary rhetorical psychobabble in a desire to be profound. Why not just say:

"Not as afraid of living without the other person as they are of living with the feelings of rejection and failure"? It's essentially the same thing and it's true for many people.

For those of us with abandonment issues (raising both hands), we HATE those feelings of rejection and failure, feelings we've been trying to escape since childhood. We will do almost anything to keep from feeling this way. My IC and I focused on nothing but these feelings when I was leaving my sociopathic ex-bf years ago. We created a step-by-step plan. I needed a million strategies to survive a single day. A minute felt like an hour and an hour like a day.

I guess I was abandoning myself if you view it through the inner child lense. I 100% could not figure out how to help my poor, suffering inner child. My IC told me what to do, but I was merely going through the motions with full trust in her. It felt like walking over hot coals 24 hours a day. She kept saying, "Just sit with those feelings." I was like, "KEEP the hot coals stuck to the bottoms of my feet! Just tolerate the pain?!" She said, "Yes, that's what I mean." But most of us don't relate to the idea of, "Oh, I'm abandoning myself right now." We actually feel we're doing all we can to survive the emptiness and loss. My entire insides were screaming out to reconnect with my abuser and end the all-consuming rejection and shame I felt. For him? Was he the loss? Bah! Are you kidding me? He was a monster. I only wanted to go back because I felt so bad about the love void. "He did not love you enough to act right." Those were my thoughts. I had lost the hope that I WOULD finally be worth loving right. No more bandaid (relationship) to give me hope that I'd be "worth it."

So the speaker's idea is right minus the weird, existential wording.

The truth as I see it is that we are not afraid of losing this PERSON, just like he says; we are afraid of losing our view of ourselves as worthy of love. We had already abandoned ourselves IN the relationship in our efforts to get love. When we leave, we lose the hope that real love is on the way. The relationship served as a bandaid on a wound that never closed up; it gets ripped off, and the pain is exposed once again.

Even after many years in IC and lots of inner child work, I do not see it as abandoning myself when I left and sank into darkness. I still think I had abandoned myself when I stayed. (No boundaries with him and such. Where was I?) The darkness I feared was accepting and grieving the love that was never coming my way. I had to finally accept that truth and learn a new way, a better way to experience love. I had to let go.

Owning it now- I had never thought of it quite that way before.

I generally think the person wasn’t doing psychobabble or trying to be clever. Instead it was kind of a side statement that didn’t get explained because it wasn’t pertinent to the discussion. I am probably the one who made it existential because it’s my own tendency.

But I have lately been interested in this mirroring of self in relationships, and the growing elevated consciousness one embarks on after a great amount of therapy and seeking. I have noticed the more I notice about myself the more I notice how that plays out in a relationship. It’s symbiotic, I think.

I had just never contemplated it in terms of abandonment for some reason. Probably it’s because like you say, we don’t think about self abandonment, we think more in terms of the reality of what we are experiencing.

But I think you are right, going through the dark pain and grief is more a byproduct of being human, investing in a relationship, grief, etc. but often the staying and accepting abuse is self abandonment.

For me, I didn’t experience abuse- I was the abuser. That was a role that was hard to accept when I spent 20 years giving too much.(hence the entitlement). So I see it as symbiotic because my self abandonment led me to abandon the relationship, but not without another "love source" because the real fear was:

"we are afraid of losing our view of ourselves as worthy of love."

Essentially I secured another source of that as part of an exit strategy. Even though I didn’t really see myself with AP at all either. I suppose I saw him as the bandaid to get though it.

When I found out about my husbands affair, there was a period that seemed normalized suddenly. Mostly because I never really thought of my husband’s background as wrought with trauma. (His mother is the greatest example of love that I could ever think of) He isn’t codependent- he told me when we got married he was going to be happy, otherwise he believes in divorce. So I thought geez, here he is doing the same thing. But as time went along I recognized that he self abandoned by staying with me when it took a whole year for me to even show a morsel of remorse. It made me realize everyone has fear of abandonment, it’s just in varying degrees.

Essentially he feared self abandonment more when he made the statement about being happy and divorce. I can see that didn’t happen in his childhood, it happened being married to a raging narcissist prior to our marriage. (Not kidding, even the kids went low contact with her when they became adults)

I am probably the one who made it existential because it’s my own tendency.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 10:56 PM, Thursday, April 25th]

Aw man the graphic didn’t load for me!

I’ve got some kind of glitch going on right now, so I’m assuming that is the reason (I can’t see the graphic either). If that glitch resolved and the image doesn’t show I’ll repost it.
#igotyou

First things first, the graphic is now present. It is now anti-climatic, but hopefully good for a guffaw.

Second, here is my current understanding of this:

I don’t believe that fear of others abandoning us is equivalent to our fear of self abandonment.

After reading this and thinking on it, it does seem to me that our intensity of fear of being abandoned by others may very well be highly correlated to our level of self-abandonment in our current relationships.

I don’t think it’s equivalent either.

What I think is- it’s sometimes a factor.

I think it’s a factor for me. That’s not to say I am trying to or want to leave my relationship, but I can see how that has been a pattern for me.

There are always multiple factors.