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That nice, dependable guys aren't sexy. Being stable and reliable makes for a no drama life and a dead bedroom.

And that nothing kills love and desire more or faster than the loss of trust.

That nice, dependable guys aren't sexy. Being stable and reliable makes for a no drama life and a dead bedroom.

This is advice or something you think is a lie?

Nice and dependable have little to do with sexy. They are sort of totally different facets of a personality unless you think making it clear you like, want, and will make an effort at sex makes you somehow not nice.

I get the point that women like the "bad boy" image.

However I think many of us outgrow that stupid teenage "myth" and upon maturity, we start to look at relationships very differently.

I used to tell my kids: the guys/girls you would not date at 20 are often the person you become interested in at 30. You mature, your values change, etc.

When I was dating I dated good looking and not as good looking. Quickly learned how to spot a guy who was real and interested vs a player.

I remember this very very good looking guy in college trying to date me. The girls in my dorm thought I was crazy because I wanted no part of him. He was a player. Fake as they come. He was only interested in me until he got what he wanted and then he would have tossed me aside.

I saw his true colors a mile away. At 18 I might have fell for it. But not at 21.

It’s not about looks for most people - it’s more than that. It’s just sad we live in a society that values beauty more than other virtues.

Most recently I was introduced to the "mistaken goals chart" and it is an incredible tool.

Please say more about this. My cursory look indicates to me that this is intended as a model to describe different kinds of acting out in kids (and I think you are saying that you think it can easily just be extended to adults). I also think it is intended to help a parent (or partner in your example) interpret the type of misbehavior based off the parents feelings invoked by the behavior. Does that sound right?

-People are responsible for their own happiness.

I think this is very close in meaning to my signature, that people are more important than the relationships they are in. That one just came out one day while I was posting on something here and it just felt right. And so different than the way I've lived my life.

I have become okay with terse. People need to feel comfortable in protecting their own needs, their own boundaries, and they agree to participate to the degree in which they are comfortable. Having boundaries or stating of needs can be uncomfortable. But being uncomfortable is not always a statement about the other person and how the message might be perceived, but a fear of rejection or abandonment in those moments.

Damn you and your ability to see into my soul. You kind of kicked my butt with this line. I'm asking myself why did I start this thread. Am I soooo anxious and wanting people to like me that I put out an olive branch to mend a feared wound with people I haven't met IRL? I don't know what to make of that at this moment. Like, I'm a peace maker, and I don't think that is bad. But I've definitely been anxiously attached and codependent, and that ain't good. If I'm honest, I had a fear that you were really pissed at me and wouldn't talk with me anymore, and I hated that idea (and I've got tears as I type this). I'm genuinely kind of confused right now. I feel like a scalpel is needed to separate something beautiful about me from a tumor.

First, I don’t think of it in terms of complaints.

Take it up with Gottman

The healthiest relationships are those where each partner is allowed to be an authentic individual. He does not complete me and vice versa. We are not "one". We're members of a team, a partnership, and sometimes we present as a united front and sometimes we disagree and present to others as individuals.

Are you trying to say that the writers of Jerry Maguire were not relationship experts?

ETA: when we first started MC post d-day, my wife really latched onto some material that talked about the "Us" of the marriage, which basically personified it and made it co-equal with the people in the marriage. It always felt off to me.

On that same sort of note, it's not terribly bonding to do things together when one partner is uninterested.

My wife made up her own Love Language, called it Quantity Time. I will never tolerate such a thing again. It put me in the position of trying to find every scrap of time in life to give to her, which by the way was never enough. Every other relationship in life makes the most of the time given to it, I think it's the nature of humans relating to each other. I think if she would have felt the burden to actually appreciate the time she had with me, it could have been radically different.

I see what you're doing there.

I don't think it was intentional, I can't trace the spaghetti strand of thinking that led me to this question, though it may have come from that discussion, it was certainly on my mind and heart.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 9:38 PM, Monday, September 9th]

Well, ink- it takes one to know one. I didn’t mean to call you out or bring on tears. That’s why. I don’t have a magical sense for these things. I have my own experience. I have had to work at this for a much longer time.

You are allowed to disagree with me, or anyone else. You are allowed to be disappointed or think one of us went too far. Relationships are supposed to be elastic. That wasn’t your experience at times growing up. If we all thought the same way, the world would be a different place.

A lot of our suffering is from the narratives we have around things. Our disagreement was respectful and well placed. You wanted to validate, and I wanted to raise the veil on we sometimes need to challenge our beliefs because we are causing ourselves more suffering.

Sorry if it got tender. But maybe it’s good practice :-)

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:40 PM, Monday, September 9th]

That nice, dependable guys aren't sexy. Being stable and reliable makes for a no drama life and a dead bedroom.

My BFF was all about the bad boys when she was young. She got tired of the drama and married the first "nice, dependable" guy who asked. She's a free spirit and he's an engineer. She knew they were a bad match from the start and almost didn't marry him, but thought she was on a path of destruction with her usual type and went ahead with it. Guess who cheated within the first three years? No, not her. Him. He didn't think that she was all that into him (he was right), and he got caught up in an A with someone who paid attention to him. They're still together almost 30 years later, but they're not happy. Not because of the A - they recovered from that, but because they're so mismatched.

Nice, dependable men should marry nice, dependable women.

My wife made up her own Love Language, called it Quantity Time.

InkHulk, between this and "teachable mistakes" or "low stakes mistakes" (can't remember the exact phrase that she used), your wife is like the anti-relationship guru.

You are allowed to disagree with me, or anyone else. You are allowed to be disappointed or think one of us went too far. Relationships are supposed to be elastic. That wasn’t your experience at times growing up. If we all thought the same way, the world would be a different place.

Somehow this whole discussion just hit a deep well of emotion for me. I'm doing my best to make Sisoon proud and listen and process it out of my body. Clearly I'm a person who is not afraid of arguing, and that largely comes from my father's side. But my mother hated it. She learned to hate him, and I think she learned to hate the parts of me that reminded her of him. It was not safe to disagree and argue, and then I married the extension of her, probably because I loathed that part of myself. This is some serious internet therapy today. Thank you for being a safe person to disagree with, even if I don't very often.

When I started writing extensively on SI, it felt like an opportunity to just be myself, something I suppressed in every facet of life for one reason or another. I think I found myself again here in these last two years.

InkHulk, between this and "teachable mistakes" or "low stakes mistakes" (can't remember the exact phrase that she used), your wife is like the anti-relationship guru.

Affordable mistakes. Yes, we can start up a Relationship Hall of Shame list, this is a healthy start.

My wife made up her own Love Language, called it Quantity Time.

That sounds like HELL.

your wife is like the anti-relationship guru.

I think if she would have felt the burden to actually appreciate the time she had with me, it could have been radically different.

I think you're right.

Like, I'm a peace maker, and I don't think that is bad. But I've definitely been anxiously attached and codependent, and that ain't good.

FWIW, I've seen you stand up for yourself more than anyone else on this site. For real. You don't take nonsense from anyone. I really admire that.

I've got some abandonment stuff, as you know, so I feel ya on that anxious attachment and codep stuff, my friend. I've worked a lot on the latter. I have some work to do on the former.

Also, I can't imagine our resident diplomat, h/o, ever cutting you off. Transparency: I was worried that you were mad at me.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 10:00 PM, Monday, September 9th]

Transparency: I was worried that you were mad at me.

Well why didn’t you start a thread then?

Well why didn’t you start a thread then?

Please say more about this. My cursory look indicates to me that this is intended as a model to describe different kinds of acting out in kids (and I think you are saying that you think it can easily just be extended to adults). I also think it is intended to help a parent (or partner in your example) interpret the type of misbehavior based off the parents feelings invoked by the behavior. Does that sound right?

So the big takeaway from the mistaken goals chart is that a child acting up or causing conflict is generally attempting to achieve one of the "mistaken goals" instead of the goals of the current activity, and they are doing so out of the desire on the far right of the chart.

So lets say the goal is a "healthy and loving relationship", but the spouse forgets that this is the goal. The core issue as to why they have lost sight of the normal goal is actually on the far right. And their "mistaken goal" is on the left. So what they intend is more "Notice me", "Let me help", "Help me", "Believe in me". But their actions and words focus on the mistaken goal of "undue attention" "power" "revenge" or "assumed inadequacy".

The first four columns help you assess if there was a mistaken goal and ensuing conflict due to that mistaken goal. The last column is what you can do to help with the actual underlying issue.

So lets take revenge as an example here. (This could actually be the BS!). Your goal shouldn't generally be revenge, it's that you are hurt and need help. You have then created the mistake goal of revenge out of this feeling. But if you attempt to make WS hurt they will take that personally and escalate further. Revenge does not help to accomplish the actual goal.

Real Goal: A safe and loving relationship

Mistaken Goal: Revenge

(to get even)

Your partner will feel:

•Hurt

•Disappointed

•Disbelieving

•Disgusted

Your partner will tend to respond by:

Retaliating- Getting even

Thinking "How could you do this to me?"

Taking behavior personallyRetaliates

Hurts others

Damages property

Gets even

Escalates the same

Behavior or chooses another weapon

The belief being reinforced in this cycle is:

I don't think I belong so I'll hurt others as I feel hurt.

I can't be liked or loved.Help Me-I'm Hurting.

Alternative strategies to address the underlying issues of "Help Me-I'm hurting":

Apologize.

Avoid punishment and retaliation.

Show you care.

Encourage strengths.

Use family/ class meetings

Deal with the hurt feelings. "Your behavior tells me you must feel hurt. Can we talk about that?"

Use reflective listening.

Don't take behavior personally.

Share your feelings.

So If BS seems to be attempting revenge, the WS would say something like, "I'm sorry I've hurt you. I know this is really hard, and I won't take that personally, but remember our goal is a safe and loving relationship. Revenge is a mistaken goal if that's where we want to be."

Anyway, most people when they are feeling in these different ways (ignored, powerless, hurt, or inadequate) act up in these ways and generally cause issues in this predictable manner. If you see it happen or are proactive, you can identify this and use the positive conflict resolution tools in the last column. It's ok to do it after the conflict cycle has occurred as well. "Hey I noticed we had a power struggle, what can we do to set a boundary or rule we both agree to so that doesn't happen again?"

(FWIW, Power is my common "mistaken goal" and "assumed inadequacy" is my wife's).

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 11:24 PM, Monday, September 9th]

Clearly I'm a person who is not afraid of arguing, and that largely comes from my father's side. But my mother hated it. She learned to hate him, and I think she learned to hate the parts of me that reminded her of him. It was not safe to disagree and argue, and then I married the extension of her, probably because I loathed that part of myself. This is some serious internet therapy today. Thank you for being a safe person to disagree with, even if I don't very often.

My mom is critical, she was a yeller, very emotionally immature. To this day it astounds me how she lives like a petulant child. I hated that aspect of her, though she is generally a good person in many ways. But it has been her demonstration of anger and feel sorry for me that has made anger a hard emotion for me

To deal with. So I completely relate. In many way, I think I looked for her approval in others for a lot of my life.

I don’t think it’s weird that people here are important to you if this is the place you risked showing your authenticity after losing track of it for so long. I think that is probably true for me in some ways too, maybe a small part why I find myself still here.

I do think that you have certainly put us all in our place when it comes to your situation over time. In fact, I have found you far more "terse" in those situations at times than you were in the other thread. But I think you identified with that poster, and perhaps we were treading on some things in there that was also treading on you. So perhaps you felt more emotional about it than when you put us in our place on a thread you had more control over? Just a thought, not sure it’s right, nor am I trying to rehash or get you to reconsider your position.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:05 AM, Tuesday, September 10th]

Compromise is the key to a healthy relationship.

Some form of this was a part of advice I had heard throughout my life.

Turns out, compromise is very, very expensive.

One person wins, and one person loses every compromise.

And one partner tends to compromise more than the other.

It was the seed of resentment for BOTH my wife and I.

Nothing can cause someone to choose to cheat, that’s always an individual choice. However, compromise caused a great deal of distance and damage to our marriage.

Our MC, who turned out to be a BS (he told us that near the end of our sessions) — agreed that compromise is a dirty word.

The solution sounds like semantically, but in our rebuild relationship, we don’t ever compromise. We find a way to make both of us happy. So we give instead of take - which is more than a mindset. And we find ways to do things we know the other enjoys and communicate about what wants or need that can be added along the way.

Some things I found out as I matured is that you had better be able to protect your self esteem very, very early in marriage. If one person acquiesces all the time that relationship becomes set in concrete. Also, the most damaged person in a relationship has the power. It might be loud, or it might be subtle but they get their need to be in control met. They might act pitiful or obnoxious but look at who you know. Look at who is in charge and look at their childhoods. If they felt helpless they cannot tolerate it as adults. My husband did not get enough nurturing. I had a perfect childhood. Guess who always gave in until I didn’t. The first time I said "no" it scared the hell out of me. It was when my h told me to stop painting a bedroom. I was almost finished so when I said to give me a few minutes and he got mad. He wanted supper. He yelled at me and I yelled no. He came upstairs to make sure I actually said it. It took me several years to learn I had the right to my own opinions. Concrete.
The second is still very hard. Being rude was considered a sin by my very southern mother. You never raised your voice in public and you NEVER argued around other people. I am still working on the first one but in front of people I know I take up for myself.
Btw, the best way to diffuse a possible argument is to state very clearly you are doing a thing and then do it without any more words. Hard to argue with silence.
So the long winded thing I just wrote. I found out the world would not end if I had an opinion and stated it without apologies! And that my expectations of being treated with kindness was perfectly acceptable.

I think I looked for her approval in others for a lot of my life.

Without fail, starting a thread here takes me to places I wouldn’t predict. Usually takes about 15 pages to get there, this one has been abnormally efficient, but still highly impactful.

That string of thought I wrote down yesterday, about feeling like my mother hated parts of me, I’ve never said that so clearly, even to myself. I’m feeling an emotional hang over from that one (plus some financial fuckery from my stbxw ). I guess I need to add this to the therapy docket.

I don’t think it’s weird that people here are important to you if this is the place you risked showing your authenticity after losing track of it for so long.

This seems right. I want to expand this more and more into my day to day life, and I can see that I am in certain spheres. Shedding her oppressive expectations of me has given me freedom and I’m using it, and enjoying it. But there is something here that feels like a grounding to me.

I do think that you have certainly put us all in our place when it comes to your situation over time. In fact, I have found you far more "terse" in those situations at times than you were in the other thread. But I think you identified with that poster, and perhaps we were treading on some things in there that was also treading on you. So perhaps you felt more emotional about it than when you put us in our place on a thread you had more control over? Just a thought, not sure it’s right, nor am I trying to rehash or get you to reconsider your position.

How dare you infer that I was projecting my own experience into that discussion!

It is different as my role has shifted into being more of an advice giver than getter. I have a lot of control in my own threads, I am the unique observer. It’s quite different trying to see beyond the screen. Please be patient with me as I adjust. And, I still have a passion in my soul to hold space for that pain on behalf of that struggling man, and I make no apologies for that.

How dare you infer that I was projecting my own experience into that discussion!

We all do that. If we weren’t personally invested I think this place would be empty.

It is different as my role has shifted into being more of an advice giver than getter. I have a lot of control in my own threads, I am the unique observer. It’s quite different trying to see beyond the screen. Please be patient with me as I adjust. And, I still have a passion in my soul to hold space for that pain on behalf of that struggling man, and I make no apologies for that.

I don’t feel impatient, there is no reason to apologize. I am 7 years out and I still work through a lot by being here. I do it more by advising now a days, but you still have a ways to go before some of the pain isn’t raw. It’s just changing and evolving.

And it’s a strength that we see ourselves in other people’s situation. That we have empathy and compassion- trauma has a lot of downsides but having dealt with those things make us more compassionate and understanding, and wiser.

My way of saying - it’s all good. Sorry you are experiencing some knots on the head in the divorce proceedings.