SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Apologies in advance if I'm missing a post about this topic already.

I don't follow them closely, so my understanding is that Lily Allen (British singer) and David Harbour (American actor) split up last year with rumors of infidelity reported in the media. Lily Allen just released a new album last week, West End Girl, and OMG the lyrics/details!

Depending on where you are in your SI journey, the songs might be triggering or cathartic, but here's a sample:

I know none of this is your fault, messaging you feels kind of assaultive
Saw your text, that's how I found out, tell me the truth and his motives
I can't trust anything that comes out of his mouth
No, I can't trust anything that comes out of his mouth
How long has it been going on? Is it just sex or is there emotion?
He told me it would stay in hotel rooms, never be out in the open
Why would I trust anything that comes out of his mouth?
Oh, why would I trust anything that comes out of his mouth? -Madeleine

I'm far enough a long now at this point that it doesn't hurt and I don't start ruminating, but man, I remember those early days (years, really) and how much this resonates.

I will say though, that a brief read up on Lily Allen informed me that she cheated on her previous husband at least 2x, so I do find it slightly ironic for a (former?) cheater to put together an album from a betrayed POV. Cheating sucks...

I guess Lily Allen knows how it feels to be betrayed.

Good lyrics.

Sadly, I remember the feelings. I guess sometimes none of it is their fault and sometimes it is

I will say though, that a brief read up on Lily Allen informed me that she cheated on her previous husband at least 2x, so I do find it slightly ironic for a (former?) cheater to put together an album from a betrayed POV

I can see what you are saying here. However I think overall there is understandable lack of empathy for a person who cheats to get cheated on. I have encountered that here and it’s why I rarely lean into my bs stuff here versus continuing to post more with my ws voice.

I can’t say if it’s easier to stomach infidelity after you have inflicted it. Human nature just isn’t that clear cut. A simple example- most of us have all yelled at people but when we are in the receiving end, it’s still not pleasant and doesn’t sting less. Maybe we can identify more with the other’s uncontrollable feelings that caused them to resort to yelling, yet we still may not be able to accept that behavior when we don’t deserve it. And the word deserve can be so loaded too because it invites others to judge one’s worthiness or what they feel that person deserves. Hell, even I have struggled over the years with that towards myself.

But as the others pointed out, regardless of her past relationships, she seemingly was very invested in this one and feels that sting of betrayal as deeply as most. I can relate to that even if someone else may decide it’s hypocrisy.

I love this.

I wasn't aware of any of this. I think all cheaters benefit from being cheated on. This will do her good in the long run.

Lily had an arrangement with David that he was allowed to sleep with other people as long as he was "discreet"; ie, prostitutes, 1-night stands, don't get caught. He broke the rules by having relationships with other people and being so flagrant in his behavior that it became common knowledge in the entertainment community.

The lesson from this, of course, is that healthy open relationships where everyone involved agrees on and respects the boundaries are the exception not the rule. If you don't respect marriage as a sacred covenant that should, by definition, remain "closed" then you can't expect your spouse or anyone outside your marriage to respect it, either.

I applaud Lily Allen for what she's doing. I think it's great she's sharing. I hope that some of her fans listen and learn. Who knows? Maybe she's just given a potentially WS cause for pause.

I don't think she's being hypocritical, certainly don't think she deserved it, and being betrayed by infidelity doesn't fucking benefit anyone, ever, in any way, shape or form.

I don't think she's being hypocritical, certainly don't think she deserved it

I simply cannot understand this perspective. The concept of hypocrisy seems to perfectly align with this situation, if the stated premise is correct.

One simple definition of hypocrisy is acting in a way that goes against your stated beliefs.

If you are publicly stating it's bad to cheat and painful to be cheated on—then proceeding to cheat yourself is an act that directly contradicts your stated moral position. This contradiction is the very essence of hypocrisy. It means setting a moral standard for others or for the relationship that you are unwilling or unable to meet yourself. The act of infidelity itself, especially following strong public condemnation of infidelity, forms a clear, logical link to the definition of hypocrisy because it reveals a double standard.

Now, I don't know the ins and outs here and quite frankly haven't got the sustained interest to delve deeper, but if she cheated and is now throwing a pity party because she's being cheated on, I simply can't figure an alternative definition for that behavior other than hypocrisy. Her current distress over being betrayed would be seen as disingenuous or entirely self-focused, as she had previously inflicted the very same pain on another person. The pain she feels now highlights the very wrongness she previously dismissed, making her current victim status a classic example of situational irony rooted in her own hypocrisy.

and being betrayed by infidelity doesn't fucking benefit anyone, ever, in any way, shape or form.

Again, I must disagree here. I can't speak to what anyone deserves, though personally, I lean toward a philosophy of reciprocal morality or "an eye for an eye" in this specific context. We've all seen bullies get stood up to and get a taste of their own medicine. In my perspective, this kind of direct, lived experience is often the single most effective way to address bullying behavior. My brother in-law, a PhD for that matter, has an idiom that I've always liked. He says as unenlightened and barbaric it may seem, some people just need a smack. I do believe this is true. It frequently humbles the person and forces them to re-evaluate their actions before inflicting pain on another. The benefit, in this difficult situation, is the potential for a powerful and lasting lesson learned through consequence.

Surely the same is true here? If a cheater feels the pain of being cheated on—the betrayal, the loss of trust, the deep emotional trauma—they might think twice before enacting such a betrayal again. The experience could force them to genuinely connect their actions with the profound, negative consequences they have now personally suffered. The "smack" in this analogy is the emotional shock of betrayal, a visceral consequence that cuts through abstract moralizing. While it's a terrible, painful benefit, the lesson learned through direct experience of the consequences is often a more effective deterrent against future bad behavior than simple ethical instruction or moralizing. This difficult lesson could lead to profound personal growth and ethical clarity, ultimately benefiting their future relationships by instilling a deeper empathy for the pain they previously caused.

I suppose the counter argument could be that it normalizes cheating. It could potentially lead to a mind set of: '... well everyone cheats I suppose' but I can't imagine this is the normal response. Most people I know who were cheated on become incredibly anti-cheating. Admittedly that is just my experience. It does seem to be reflected on forums such as this though.

Irrespective I don't believe sympathy is warranted and can't begin to understand the argument that it might be. Look at this situation in any other context, would you have sympathy? Suppose I'm a scammer, stealing money from retirement funds from old people over the phone. Suppose I then grow old and fall victim to the scam? Do you really feel bad for me?

If I'm a thief and rob someone's house on Christmas eve, suppose I then get robbed on Christmas day... etc etc

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 9:30 AM, Friday, October 31st]

Dr. -

It’s simple- many people simply believe cheating is wrong in all circumstances. A better alternative always exists and it is not ever a healthy thing to do. For them to make exceptions to this rule goes against their values.

I share those values, and I do not think myself a hypocrite. I believe in them because I learned that you don’t just hurt your betrayed partner- you damage yourself in the process too. I believe the person who lost the most in my husband’s subsequent affair was my husband. I don’t find that to be hypocrisy.

You seem to have a list of times that cheating is warranted or acceptable, and that’s okay if those are your values.

Edited to add- I think the part you can not fathom about a ws who becomes a bs and feels devastated by that is that we often can’t help what we feel.

As a ws, one of the thing I had to heal to become more wholesome is the shame and self loathing I felt. Not all ws feel this but I think largely there are pathological reasons someone can see their spouses devastation and not feel inherently responsible and shameful.

I did not need my husband to punish me or give me an eye for an eye. I can understand his behavior to a certain extent, and realize that we were no different than each other. However, that in itself was a revelation-ai always believed he was a superior human to me. His cheating was still a blindside and betrayal of my image of him. Had it happened earlier in our journey I would have used it to say we were even, and we would have never come to a good place in our marriage from that. I know we have discussed my views on this extensively. I am just trying to remind you that logic and feelings are not the same thing and if he was entitled to his feelings about it, well then so was I. I had every right to require the same things of him and consider divorce as he did. After all you believe in an eye for an eye right?

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:03 PM, Friday, October 31st]

DRSOOLERS, there is no justification for infidelity.

I don't know squat about Lily Allen. I'd never heard of her before.

I have, however, known hikingout for several years. Never once, not even for a moment, did I ever believe she was being hypocritical or that she "deserved it."

There is no justification for infidelity.

Harbour was known to be a philanderer, so I'd speculate the non-monogamy arrangement was meant to be an "enlightened" solution for the usual justifications for cheating. Which of course he betrayed because those usual justifications are bunk and he's still as always been in WS mentality. Not surprising Allen is writing and performing through processing it all.

[This message edited by torso1500 at 6:08 PM, Friday, October 31st]

'It’s simple- many people simply believe cheating is wrong in all circumstances. A better alternative always exists and it is not ever a healthy thing to do. For them to make exceptions to this rule goes against their values.'

I can acknowledge the premise that cheating is wrong under all circumstances. However, this unwavering moral stance does not negate or take away from the discussion points I have outlined: specifically, whether it can be beneficial for a cheater to feel the pain of betrayal, or whether they are truly worthy of sympathy in that position. My points remain relevant regardless of the foundational belief that cheating is wrong.

'I think the part you can not fathom about a ws who becomes a bs and feels devastated by that is that we often can’t help what we feel.'

I can certainly understand this position; anyone is entitled to feel anything, and I agree that you cannot help how you feel. However, one can help pleading for sympathy, and I find that act to be both hypocritical and unseemly. If I were to punch someone and then immediately get punched in return, I would not go crying about it. I believe that is the definition of adult accountability: you reap what you sow. While I may feel upset that I’ve been punched, I would not expect sympathy, nor could I claim the moral high ground or express moral outrage.

'I am just trying to remind you that logic and feelings are not the same thing and if he was entitled to his feelings about it, well then so was I. I had every right to require the same things of him and consider divorce as he did. After all you believe in an eye for an eye right?'

Many people misinterpret the biblical phrase, "An eye for an eye." This misreading is likely due to Mahatma Gandhi's famous, but misleading, quote: "An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind."

While that quote is eloquent, it misses a critical point: The original law was never meant to spark an endless cycle of revenge. It was not about: "You take my eye, so I take yours, and then you take mine again."

That is not how it works. The principle is, fundamentally, a proportional limit on vengeance. Once you have taken an eye, and I take an eye back, the cycle ends there—the debt is considered paid. Crucially, this principle ensures that the victim's retaliation does not exceed the original offense (i.e., you do not take a life for an eye).

This principle applies to fairness in relationships, too. If someone cheats as an act of calculated revenge—a distinct scenario from your personal circumstances—it would be simply outrageous for them to end the relationship on a moral high ground, claiming they "can't be with a cheat," when they are one themselves.

I've got to say, if I was in your support network, I would have personally found it very hard to be a shoulder to cry on regarding your husbands infidelity given your previous actions. That's not to say I'm not happy you are in a good place now.

DRS I've noticed for a while just how much of your posts are "I" "I think" "my theory" "I" "I" "I"

"the discussion points I have outlined" when you are not even the OP of the thread, I mean really? It comes off as holding court and not in a helpful or supportive way

specifically, whether it can be beneficial for a cheater to feel the pain of betrayal, or whether they are truly worthy of sympathy in that position. My points remain relevant regardless of the foundational belief that cheating is wrong.

I guess it depends on your relationship to them. I never expected it here, though I did receive it from many. But those who provided it likely were already invested in me and knew the struggles I experienced and conquered within myself in trying to get from where I had been to where I was going.

I didn’t share it that much in my personal life because a) the people I would have leaned on didn’t know about mine which would have been incongruous. B) and had they known I probably still would not have sullied their opinion if my husband as I pretty much intended to reconcile even if I questioned it hard at certain points

However- I do think those who loved me would have acknowledged my bad decisions and still would have had their sympathy that a marriage they considered to be a model and healthy had deteriorated, and that my kids would have lost the rock of our family unit. I think it’s easy to say no sympathy when it’s this hypothetical person who you do not know their light and their dark. Whereas it’s easier to focusing on someone’s dark when you do not know them. It’s in essence the same sort of dehumanization that we see displayed in the national stage right now.

However, one can help pleading for sympathy, and I find that act to be both hypocritical and unseemly

.

Depends. I agree it could- especially if I was bashing him for doing the same thing I did. But that was never my stance. I had spent years working on myself and centering him and our marriage. To think I would lose it at the point I found out was devastating. I think someone could be empathetic in that regard. If I was saying things like "what a terrible person he is!" That would be hypocritical.

If I were to punch someone and then immediately get punched in return, I would not go crying about it. I believe that is the definition of adult accountability: you reap what you sow. While I may feel upset that I’ve been punched, I would not expect sympathy, nor could I claim the moral high ground or express moral outrage.

I agree- moral outrage would not be a stance that would be appropriate. But I can say that I am sad this is where our marriage is, and acknowledge my contributions to that. And in the original post, she is expressing not being able to trust him on an agreement they made about what was okay and what wasn’t. I don’t think that’s hypocritical, especially considering her cheating had happened in a completely different relationship.

'I am just trying to remind you that logic and feelings are not the same thing and if he was entitled to his feelings about it, well then so was I. I had every right to require the same things of him and consider divorce as he did. After all you believe in an eye for an eye right?'

Many people misinterpret the biblical phrase, "An eye for an eye." This misreading is likely due to Mahatma Gandhi's famous, but misleading, quote: "An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind."

While that quote is eloquent, it misses a critical point: The original law was never meant to spark an endless cycle of revenge. It was not about: "You take my eye, so I take yours, and then you take mine again."

I was not asserting that. I was more asserting that imposing him to have the choice between going to therapy or getting a divorce - I think that was fair. If I misused the term, please look at the context.

This principle applies to fairness in relationships, too. If someone cheats as an act of calculated revenge—a distinct scenario from your personal circumstances—it would be simply outrageous for them to end the relationship on a moral high ground, claiming they "can't be with a cheat," when they are one themselves.

I just don’t find any practicality it what you are saying.

If one thinks they want reconciliation, then they are not acting in their best interest to turn around and cheat. Adding chaos to more chaos is not in alignment with your desires. It opens so many doors to have someone say we’re even. And then leave the rest as rug sweeping. I feel like the better position for a reconciliation is to confront the issues head on, and have the ws’s feet held to the fire.

If one wants a divorce, okay maybe you want to go do that as a fuck you before the exit, but personally I think you end up being in a stronger position not to sink to that level and walk away with the moral high ground.

I've got to say, if I was in your support network, I would have personally found it very hard to be a shoulder to cry on regarding your husbands infidelity given your previous actions. That's not to say I'm not happy you are in a good place now.

I won’t argue this, everyone is entitled to their way of seeing things. I think knowing what I know now about infidelity, I would be able to be sympathetic, depending on the circumstances. Everyone has different levels of judgment.

I was empathetic with my husband on a lot of it. I feel hiding my disappointment or anger would have been disingenuous. I never acted in a position of moral superiority, as I agree that would be hypocritical. But I don’t feel it would have been hypocritical to divorce him had he not done some work on himself.

And I think that of anyone who cheats in retaliation as well. If I had thought he did it deliberately as revenge, knowing the destruction himself, I would have more than likely divorced him. Not because I couldn’t be married to a fellow cheater, but I am not sure that someone with the idea that additional punishment of that level should be doled out can get in the spirit of reconciliation. It implies they can’t see suffering from the ws already. And if there isn’t suffering coming from the ws I don’t think I would reconcile with them either.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:48 PM, Friday, October 31st]