SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

People say you don't know what you've got until you lose it.

5 days ago, I lost everything.

The dreadful event started with me on my mobile, trying to search for a photo while my BW was nearby. Suddenly, I scrolled across an image of a girl’s face. A face BW did not recognize and quickly asked me about, albeit somehow jokingly at first. After a few moments of panic, I said she was G, an ex-coworker. I tried to explain that it was downloaded by mistake; that was my first lie of the night. BW got suspicious and asked for the mobile, which I handed out. She found the image in the Facebook download folder, dated a few months back. She also found another photo of G from February. I foolishly tried to explain that this was also downloaded by mistake; lie number two. I felt mortified. She was shocked.

After a quick confrontation and a bunch of several unimaginable lies, she read a small part of my WhatsApp convo with G and innocently concluded that this was a harmless crush, and made fun of me for creeping over a pretentious girl. She was very, very angry, but also still very skeptical and lost. She did not realize that while this mess was unfolding, I managed to delete two other photos of G that were in my Whatsapp Profile Picture download folder.

As the confrontation developed, I kept talking nonsense until she finally exported my entire convo with G to her phone and started reading it. I genuinely thought nothing was incriminating in this convo and waited it out. It didn’t take long for her to return, completely aghast, saying that our relationship is over, that this was much more than a crush, that if not for the kids she would have sent me packing. She kept reading it all night.

In the morning, she had lost her wedding ring, her husband, and any shred of trust she could ever bestow upon me.

5 days ago, I lost everything. It was the worst day of my life.

It all began on the cursed Christmas of 2014. G was a random front desk coworker who’s been at the company for a year or two. Nothing was going on between us, we were not even friends. Until we played the secret Santa game. I was Santa, and G, with two others, was on the receiving end of one of the cunningest secret Santa episodes ever done at the company. She was naturally impressed, and a relationship began to develop. We started talking in person, and more so on Whatsapp.

For me, G was this frail and weak girl, who’s often sick, and who desperately needed support. I saw myself as the KISA, coming to the rescue. All I needed was a little push, the faintest of encouragements. And boy did I deliver.

At first, it was appropriate, regular convos and time-wasting between friends. Then I started flirting, me, an engaged man. I kept coming at her, and she kept allowing it. There were never any real bad intentions in my mind, I did not seek her romantically as much as I enjoyed the attention. It all comes down to my past, I think. My BW was my only every girlfriend, my only ever crush, my only receptor of the smart and witty flirtatious attempts. I am a total nerd and a complete social introvert. For me to have a girl on the receiving end of a messaging app was an unimaginable deal.

The sad part is, I probably did not consider myself doing anything wrong at that time; just flirting innocently I must have thought.

For me, G was always portrayed as this sweet, kind, innocent girl, who does good deeds, and is a great friend of mine. I did not see how I was pathetically trying to flirt, while she mostly responded with laughter. Reading some of our past convos again, I could see now how she sometimes asked for it, implicitly, by saying she did not feel pretty and such. And I, like a fool, swallowed the bait and kept coming.

I got married in 2015 to the love of my life. But around a year before that, and a year after it, I was living what could be described as a double life. I did not see it back then, and I did not recall it clearly when BW asked for my phone on D-day.

The unfortunate relationship with G started dwindling gradually towards the end of 2016 and the beginning of 2017. After that, we only talked on occasions and special holidays, though only appropriately. She did mention that she missed me in one of these recent convos, but I was no more in the same deranged mentality that I found myself in a few years back, so nothing wrong ensued. Whatever reasons led me to behave immorally were simply not there anymore. It could the fact that my first child was born, or G’s marriage. Or both. Or me maturing ever so slightly.

How could I have possibly forgotten all those messages and all that flirting? I was oblivious. What did I gain from it, if I don’t even recall living it? Was it all in my subconscious?

I flirted with that girl for two years. In those two years and the many years after, I collected “relics” belonging to her, souvenirs, memories of a friend. There was a Christmas cup she got me on that first adventure we lived together. There was a note she left on my desk, which I am still keeping after so many years. There was a jar of jam rotting in my fridge, a compliment of her wedding reception. And then there were the pictures. Those damned pictures that started the whole thing. Why did I keep them, scattered like that on my phone? I wish I knew. It was an automatic thing, even after so many years; maybe I’d think she looked nice, and I download the picture, never to care for it again. For me, it was a relic I am keeping. Was it for the memory, or was it because I subconsciously missed our past relationship? I wish I knew. It was foolish, I was begging for trouble, asking to be caught.

One time I thought about it, I thought about what I’d tell BW if she found the pictures. I thought I can simply tell her those are pictures of my friend, the ex-coworker who left and whom I miss. It made sense to me back then. However, during D-day, when it happened, whatever I convinced myself in the past did not make sense at all then, I was petrified by the mere thought of telling BW anything about that girl.

BW is struggling a lot. I was her hero, and now I am reduced to trash. I feel I am intruding on her in this house. She needs time to heal, time to think and process things, but it is very hard to do so when you have two kids, a job, and a complete stranger living in your home.

She did not give up on me yet. She said we can still be friends. She said maybe we can repair this relationship, but it will take years.

I am secretly hoping we could wake up one day believing all of this was just another 2020 nightmare, and carry on with our lives like before, happily married with a beautiful family. Sadly, life is just not that simple.

She is on this website too, she posted her side of the story, and some of the messages there were very supportive and insightful. I could see the change in her, I was happy yesterday she was beginning to have a sense of normality. But today not so much anymore. The time she spent alone yesterday away from me was refreshing. Any progress I think I made so far vanished when I saw her suffering again. This will be a long struggle, but hopefully, I can convince her that she was never second to anyone.

She asked for a detailed timeline, which I am preparing. She asked for me to read the recommended book, Not-Just-Friends, which I began doing. She also needs me to see an IC. I am prepared to do that, but first I need to come to terms with and own my misdeeds.

I did BW wrong; terribly wrong. She was my everything. For me, she has always been a mountain above everyone else, in a league of her own. A talented, bright, beautiful woman. There was nothing she would not do for me. She loved me like crazy, unconditionally, and I loved her too. We were the perfect couple, a match made in heaven. I destroyed it.

I am not doing very well. I have no appetite. My stomach is upside down. My heart is struck in half. I cannot think about anything, only reliving the past few days in my mind. I keep reading the convos and posts over and over and over again, trying to make sense of it all.

I want to fix this so badly. I hope I can. I was immature, naïve, and a borderline creep. I don’t see myself like that now.

I keep discussing with BW how I perceive G now. Is she really that almighty nice and innocent person? Was she at fault for not putting an end to my recurrent mischiefs? I cannot blame her, I think. I still believe, to a certain degree, that she might have been equally oblivious of it all, not paying it that much attention. But yet again, she did encourage it at times, could it have been done so innocently? I do not know. I need time to reflect on this and reread all my convos with G. It is somehow hard for me to accept that this person, whom I held in high esteem in my heart and my mind for so many years, is just another pretentious, attention seeker, home-wrecker wh*re! BW is helping me a lot with this. I am astonished she can still find the strength to withstand my blindness. But unless I truly get to the bottom of this, other Gs might keep coming back into my life to fool me again into thinking they are sweet and innocent; I do believe BW is on point with this.

It is time for me to truly mature. A man in his mid-thirties; a mere clown, a fool. I am disgusted with myself. For some time now I kept beating myself up for keeping the convos, for not deleting them, for saving those pictures. But I had forgotten about the convos and the unspeakable atrocities they contained after so many years. But this is not the point now, is it?! This is not about hiding evidence or keeping a secret, no. I should be beating myself up for dragging us into this mess in the first place; for betraying my loving wife’s trust and ruining our family forever.

Is there any hope for me? Will she ever forgive me?

I know I cannot forgive myself now. I was her rock, her only support, and I smashed myself into rotten dirt. She has to resort to online forums for moral support, for assistance, what have I done??? It was my shoulder she has always leaned on, but now these shoulders are carrying the head of an imbecile. I am contemplating death by all imaginable ways, it will stop the pain, my pain, but I cannot be so selfish, I have my children to carry through this whole mess, and a BW whose pain I have to heal. I can’t really stop thinking, what if I died now? Is that how she’s going to remember me for the rest of her life? What will she tell the kids about me? That I was a morally corrupted cheating husband? I do not want to accept that.

BW believes that I loved that girl; that I am probably still attracted to her. I honestly do not feel that way now. I am sure I did not love her at any point. Perhaps I was attracted to her sweetness and kindness, her natural beauty; I must have liked our conversations and the way they made me feel, all so powerful and Casanova-ish. Ah, you silly boy!

One thing I am sure of is that I love BW to the core. Questioning this will never be on the table!

How can I cope with this? I understand my case is easier than that of many of you, this was not a PA, it is even debatable if that was an EA or not so much. But it was something, and it was bad. I desperately want my wife back; I’ll shut down all doors and windows leading to G. I want this to work.

Was I really having an affair in the past 6 years? Or was it only those dreadful two years of flirting? Or it wasn’t an affair?! Whatever we call it, it will not deny the fact that my BW is suffering gravely, and dressing this whole thing up in joyful colors and attractive nomenclatures will not make it any better for her.

One of the members, Ariopolis, raised an interesting point, and BW agreed that this was what she’s been waiting for me to admit for the past 5 days. He said that “it may be more understandable to think of the little front desk girl as my Dulcinea; that this was obviously my secret interior life; that this love was pure, innocent and cannot be sullied. The question is if I can and want to replace the goddess with my human flesh and blood wife”.

While I am very convinced that the level of admiration and affection I had towards G was not up to a Godly level, I am beginning to realize that this interpretation rings more true than believing I was chasing her romantically, in order to date her, or be with her, or taking it physical. She was available at the time, I did not know she had a boyfriend, I did not know for a long while, even when I was helping her with a “friend’s” CV and his job hunting, I did not know. It was never my intention to be with her, I was happy to be with my fiancée, never did I ever contemplate having to pick between the two. If you want to talk about Goddesses, BW is there, that is her stature.

G was beautiful; she knew how to show it, how to take care of it. This definitely made it easier for me to be sucked into her typhoon. A fine girl, straight hair, sweet smile, well-shaped, albeit not very bright. This lack of wits meant she was often coming to me, asking for help, for guidance, for assistance, for the simplest of things; not because she was trying to get close to me, I think, but because she was simply not that intelligent. Soon our relationship kept growing as a result.

I could never be involved romantically with someone way beneath me; I am not trying to think all so highly of me, or all so lowly of her, for I am clearly a moron given all of the above.

What I must have felt for G at that time feels surreal. Did I love her? Can you possibly love two persons at the same time?? No, I will never accept this. You do not understand, I was crazy about my wife, and still am; we were insanely happy. The mere thought of me considering, even for a sec, that I loved someone else is gut-wrenching. Perhaps I did have some bizarre and strong feelings for her, at least our past convos suggest it.

BW wants me to admit it. To say how much I loved G. She thinks the truth will be difficult for her but will make recovery easier and possible. I do not know how to process all of this. It may be true that at times I am trying to sugar-coat the facts so as not to hurt BW. The only truth I am sure of is that I lost the love of my life; I have no strength left in me to think about anything else now. I want my wife back; I don’t care about G, putting the last 3 pictures of her aside, I already stopped caring 4 years ago…

Will reconciliation be possible?

Sorry for the long post and seemingly contradictory thoughts; this was written over the past few days and I kept it as is along the way.

Welcome to SI. I read your wifes post on JFO and hoped you would post on here. There is a huge amount to digest on this post so I will read again before posting a comment. A couple of points:

1) Consider asking for a stop sign. This is your first post and maybe it would be better to take the advice of weywards first. You will get sound advice from BS of course, but sometimes a new poster leaves very quickly when the reality of some responses hits home. If you're happy with BS posting then be prepared for some 2x4's.

2) Read Linda Macdonald - How to help you spouse heal from your affair. Great book and can be easily read in an afternoon. It is written to help people just past d-day and helps them to not make the mistakes I made.

3) Listen to the advice on here. People have done what you have done and have made the same mistakes. We have lied and cheated and in some cases made it through. I am not there yet but working on my marriage and working on me. This site had been very useful and inspirational.

4) Stick with it. You will be questioned, people will call out your bullshit if they think you're full of it. You will feel awful (as we deserve) but you will learn how to heal your BS and yourself.

Welcome, Hellshusband.

Fellow Ws here, and I am going to just give you some general advice:

1. I think you are minimizing a lot. Rebuilding trust begins today. If you lie, or what we call trickle truth the more you are adding to the lack of trust. Self preservation is often very high upon discovery. You need to go against that instinct and come clean on everything, no matter how hard or devastating. I sense you are even holding back to us, anonymous strangers, at this point. If I can sense this from a distance just know your wife, who knows you and lives with you hears strong alarms with every lie. Instincts are going to take over for her as well. She has no reason to believe you right now.

2. Make an IC appt immediately.

3. Read "How to help your spouse heal from infidelity". It's a very quick read. You will need to read it again later because more will resonate as you move through this.

Edited to add - I cross posted with Bulcy, I didn't even know your wife had a post here. I want to make that clear because when I said it sounds like you are holding back that was without any other knowledge. I want you to know that because it's that obvious.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:19 AM, December 11th (Friday)]

I'm glad you're posting here. I hope you are open to the advice you receive here.

The only advice I can offer you is, please be honest. Use this site to work on becoming a better version of yourself. Please be honest and open here. Do not write for your audience and do not write what you want your wife to see. Damage control will not help you now.

I wish you well.

Disclaimer: I’m a BW who read your BW’s thread.

I’ve read your post and the reason I’m responding is that I can see a lot of my WH and what happened in his A in your own story. My WH’s affair was emotional, as yours, but also physical.

I can tell you that most likely your BW is wondering what would you have done should the ow have responded to your advances and clear flirting. You perhaps say you wouldn’t have taken it further but who’s to know? The facts are that you actively pursued this woman in a romantic way and she didn’t allow it to go further. She laughed. By the way, the ow knew exactly what she was doing, women do, she enjoyed all the attention she could get from a engaged/married man, but apparently she had some morals not to allow it to go further.

I will not allow myself to assume you would have slept with her. But let me just tell you that in my WH’s situation it all started as a friendship with a coworker also below his rank, level of education and intelligence, a woman whom he even told that he’s happily married as they were becoming friends. Then the flirting started, continued and ended in bed fully in love as my WS felt he must be her knight in shining armour. The ow in our case also has health problems, personal problems and, like in your case, a strong desire to feel special by getting attention from “taken” men.

You want to talk character? Fine. Who entices married men for the benefit of stroking their egos feeling that somehow the fact that the man is taken makes that compliment, stolen flirt, even more valuable because “I’ve got one over his fiancé/wife”? It’s very sick and I can tell you that once my WH’s affair was out in the open I was shocked to realise this woman was, in her head, in competition to me. Because you see, these women think life is that way, a competition, they get their ego inflated by feeling they are superior to the wife.

You can see evidence of this in your case in the messages she sent which were derogatory about your wife. (The fact you didn’t defend your wife is something that should scream at you, you see, you can’t say you’re married to a goddess and then let people throw mud at her...). She spoke in a derogatory way because you gave her the message, by engaging with her, that your wife has no value to you.

You haven’t only flirted with this woman for two years. You invited an intruder into your life and marriage and she’s still there. No matter how sporadically you two talk now, you did not shut the door in her face at all.

For me that would be important. I would have liked my WH to take initiative and shut the door. Write a message to the ow stating that what he did was wrong. That his wife and family matter the world to him and he does not want to see her face or talk to her ever again as she was the biggest fuck up of his life. (No he didn’t do this therefore my WH will never convince me I have much value to him but that’s ok, I have now learnt my value should be drawn from things I can influence).

So that’s my first advice: shut the door. Second advice: get into IC, one experienced in infidelity (emotional or physical) to try and understand why you have no appreciation for what you have and are capable of betrayal.

Your wife will be up and down a lot. Get used to it. Listen. Discover empathy. Good luck in your path.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 10:59 AM, December 11th (Friday)]

BW wants me to admit it. To say how much I loved G. She thinks the truth will be difficult for her but will make recovery easier and possible.

I think that would be a mistake, because based on what you've written, I don't think it's true. I think you idealized this girl and I think you knew all along you were engaging in a fantasy and that what you were enjoying was the clandestine nature of it. Really, you would do well to get some therapy because whatever is underlying that behavior is something which needs remediation. Not a therapist, but I'm suspecting there could be a fear of intimacy.

True intimacy in a relationship is allowing yourself to be fully KNOWN by your partner. You were holding this back, protecting it, keeping it secret. Why? What is it about you, while you were playing that role, that you didn't want your wife to know? It's clearly not about the OW. You could have make your move BEFORE you got married if she were the one you wanted. There's something about YOU that you're hiding, some vulnerability, some fear, some feeling of inadequacy, something. Find that, and then share it with your WW. True intimacy is allowing your partner to KNOW every facet of you.

HellsHusband,

Ask for a STOP SIGN! Just make a post and title MOD PLEASE - they will respond to you.

Now then, you're in shock and processing the immediate fallout and badly tried to deny and now picking up those pieces off the floor with zero credibility in your BW's eyes.

Stop and take a deep breath. Read the first pinned post on the Wayward Forum. That will help act as guide for you.

Dig through your emails, files, phone, computer and try to find as much A related stuff and SAVE EVERYTHING so your BW can access it if she wants. Give her your passwords. Trust me. It will be way better to just throw yourself at the feet of honesty here and now.

I think you will really benefit from starting to write out a timeline. Start listing out main dates, things you did, feelings, etc. As you add stuff go back and re-read and you will find you will be able to recall more and add to it. This will help you to understand.

Don't downplay this. You were likely one person's consent and returned interest away from being in a full-blown affair. If you don't acknowledge this and work on how you allowed yourself to have an EA with this woman for years, you leave yourself vulnerable to having a physical affair in the future. Your BS is not overreacting.

You could start by being honest. Stop minimizing. And stop continuing to protect the OW.

Also, many waywards,if their BW is a member, start out using this forum to try to convince their BS they are telling the truth. They also use it to write amazing things about their BS, hoping to sway them. The truth is, she doesn't need to hear that. She won't believe you,and its a waste of time. I can promise you,she is thinking..ok, but you cheated on this amazing woman you love,so who cares?? Use this forum to get help for yourself. To better yourself. To learn to become authentic. To become a better man. It's not easy. But do it for yourself. Not her. You have to do it for you. If you do it for her,then it won't last.

We have some fabulous former waywards who can help you. Hiking out is fantastic. She's done "the work." So is BraveSirRobin. Listen to them.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:06 AM, December 11th (Friday)]

HellsHusband,

It is always hard when both parties are on here, as you will tend to hold back or try to write to what you think your BW wants to hear.

I re-read your post and I see some really troubling stuff.

So you had the hots for a younger girl at work, she played along (was she a direct subordinate) but she also toyed with you. The weird thing is how you held onto all these momentos and stuff. That is more in the league of lost love that you still pine for. I don't buy that this was a long done thing - you had a recent photo from this year.

You were involved in this EA before, during and after your wedding date. Kind makes for a big old shit sandwich for you BW to have to eat now. You lived this sort of fantasy.

Put it to you this way, my A was all about me. I was being selfish. Pure and simple the AP had a pulse and gave me attention that I wanted. I regularly deleted everything as it nothing of hers really mattered to me. But you kept stuff.

Why did you keep all this stuff?

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 11:13 AM, December 11th (Friday)]

You're all over the map here, my friend. You say you didn't care about the photos anymore, but you kept them and made a plan for how you'd cover your ass if your BW found them. You knew the risk but couldn't bear to throw them away. You tell the story of how you met -- how clever you were, how impressed she was -- as if you have been going back to it over and over again in your mind, polishing it up, deriving ego kibbles from the memory. It was an office Secret Santa. It was not, or should not have been, a big deal.

You keep explaining that this has been blown out of proportion, but how would you feel if you discovered your wife had been saying the same kinds of things to another man during your engagement? Hiding photos of him and preparing her cover story? Keeping moldy jam because it had an association with him?

I was an expert at telling myself two conflicting narratives simultaneously: that the details I was hiding from my BH were inconsequential but also so damaging that I had to hide them at all costs. They can't be both. You need to face up to the attachment you had to this girl. You're right that it had much more to do with you than it did with her, but minimizing it is disrespectful to your wife. For whatever reason, OW had a hold on you that made you willing to risk throwing your marriage away rather than toss the mementos. Face that and start figuring out why.

I also recommend that you Google the term "limerence," because your constant efforts to connect with OW, despite limited encouragement from her, suggest that she might be your limerent object.

BW wants me to admit it. To say how much I loved G. She thinks the truth will be difficult for her but will make recovery easier and possible.

Speaking from the betrayed side, I went through this exact same thing, and absolutely would not accept any other answer from my WH other than "Yes, I loved her." My situation was a little different because he said those words to her, but I can completely understand where your BW is coming from.

In hindsite, I don't think you have to admit that you loved the OW if you truly feel that is not the case, but, you do have to explain why you know it wasn't love and what it was or is exactly. Sounds like maybe you're still trying to work through that, and therapy could help with that. I will challenge you though that it was definitely more than nothing because of the fact that you held on to momentos. That takes things up a notch, not necessarily to love but definitely to infatuation, longing, etc. At least, that's how I would view it.

Also from a BS who is dealing with primarily emotional and online affairs, it is still incredibly painful to deal with. Not saying you're doing this at all, but just cautioning to not minimize anything because of the "it was not physical, so not as bad" line of reasoning that you often see with emotional affairs. It is completely minimizing the feelings of the one betrayed.

There are people here way smarter than me, I just wanted to share my insight on these points.

Good luck to you both!

[This message edited by landclark at 11:36 AM, December 11th (Friday)]

Still no stop sign.

Yes this was an emotional affair.

It was a romantic and sexually charged relationship that you hid from your spouse. An affair.

Now, understand that you had one. A long one. Physical or not, you have been lying to your wife for years. Years and years of lies. Get it?

You have so completely betrayed her and destroyed her trust that your words mean nothing.

Actions, actions, actions, actions.

Complete electronic transparency.

GPS, email, chat, an online clone of your phone, everything.

Complete NC with your AP. In front of your BW, write and send a letter to the effect of "I am recommitting to my wife 100%. Our relationship hasn't been appropriate and I'd like to never contact you, or have you contact me ever again for any reason."

No more lies. She needs the truth. If you trickle it on her, it's just going to be that much worse.

Get an IC.

Read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair", and do what it says.

Your feelings are very much in line in limerence. Maybe love, maybe not. IDK, I'm not in your brain. Look it up.

No stop sign---yet.

Dole Office Clerk: Occupation?

Comicus: Stand-up philosopher.

Dole Office Clerk: What?

Comicus: Stand-up philosopher. I coalesce the vapors of human experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension.

Dole Office Clerk: Oh, a *bullshit* artist!

Comicus: [grumbles]

Dole Office Clerk: Did you bullshit last week?

Comicus: No.

Dole Office Clerk: Did you *try* to bullshit last week?

Comicus: Yes!

"History of the World Pt.1" 1981 (Dir. Mel Brooks)

I want to thank everyone who contributed to my post, be it WSs or BSs, your words were an inspiration to me during these rough times.

Consider asking for a stop sign. This is your first post and maybe it would be better to take the advice of weywards first. You will get sound advice from BS of course, but sometimes a new poster leaves very quickly when the reality of some responses hits home. If you're happy with BS posting then be prepared for some 2x4's.

Thank you for the heads up. I do agree however that BSs will and are already weighing in tremendously; for that, I will not be using a stop sign. I invite anyone to just say what they feel about this; I am not here looking for cheerleaders.

Self preservation is often very high upon discovery. You need to go against that instinct and come clean on everything, no matter how hard or devastating.

You are absolutely right; the first few days were the toughest. I feel better now, more open, trying my best to remember all the details, even handing my BW materials she did not know existed (SMSs for instance).

Please be honest and open here. Do not write for your audience and do not write what you want your wife to see. Damage control will not help you now.

Indeed. My contribution here is not secretly addressed to my BW. She already knew, read, or heard every word I wrote in my original post anyway.

@Luna10 thank you for sharing your story; I am sorry you had this experience yourself. You raised some very good questions in your post. I was busy these past few days, soul searching, analyzing convos, investigating my feelings. My BW is helping enormously. She wanted to know about my feelings. The best way I could portray them was in a question-answer format. So I asked myself a few questions, in writing, then answered them. After that, BW added a couple of questions too.

Did I think she was beautiful, attractive, made of divine material?

Yes, I thought that. But not before the Secret Santa, only soon afterward when I started to really notice her more often. I did not stare at her, it was not in a creepy way, no. But I knew I felt something for her, and I knew it was not right. A harmless crush maybe, a strong admiration of her character, or something else?

If I was not in a relationship with BW at the time, would have I upped it up a notch in order to be in a relationship with G (assuming I was still oblivious she had a boyfriend)?

No, very, very unlikely. Whatever infatuation I had for her, this was never about me marrying the girl or spending my life with her. Even I have standards, I would never be with someone way beneath me in everything, it just would not work. I would not even try.

What was I trying to do then, what was really the purpose of these terribly wrong one-sided attempts?

I wish I knew what got into me. I was blinded by the excitement of it all, an adventure I was living, totally unaware of the consequences. It was like a game, and I thought I was winning it. I was making her laugh, she was always talking back, she initiated convos, she made me feel great about myself.

Did I love her?

It all comes down to this, doesn’t it? I am not going to sugar-coat it. I will explain it the way it is. I have nowhere to hide, and nothing more to lose.

Did I love her? Yes, and No.

I loved the idea of her, I loved the adventure I convinced myself I was living, I loved how she made me feel.

This is the truth. And this is why I got over her rather quickly, for when the talking with her started to stop, the excitement vanished, and what was left was only a girl that I liked. What I loved about her was no more, and I moved along.

Think of it as friends with benefits. You can be in a physical relationship with someone. You might like that person or not, you might even be meh about him, but you can still love the sex. You love them for giving you the joy, not for who they are. When you take the physical away, you take the love away with it. I was not crazy about her. When the “love” faded, what was left were the memories of that love.

BW: Did you “love” her while getting married?

Did you think she looked beautiful during the wedding? Were you attracted to her during the wedding? Were you noticing her more than others during the wedding? Was she more often than others in the corner of your eye?

Yes, I guess I was still in that mentality. I liked her hair, her dress. I remember them from when they went to church. But that was it really. I did not notice her at the reception, I mean even if you want to argue that I wanted to, I couldn’t really, but I did not. I don’t even remember where they were sitting.

BW: Did you think about her during the honeymoon?

Again, no. We were having the best days of our lives. Sharing the happiest moments. Whatever feeling I had for that girl had no place there. Even a degenerate and unethical asshole like me has some boundaries.

BW: Were you longing for her? Did you fantasize about holding her hand, or hugging her when she was sad, and how good it would feel?

I do not think so. Even when I used to ask her repeatedly when she was coming and so on, it was not out of desperation, but rather just a show.

BW: Did you at the time think her character was better than mine?

No, I did not think that. I did see her as that kind, sweet, nice girl, who does good deeds and helps others. But that only did not define her character. She was not into cats or animals in general. Those are some major points she lost. She was not a great friend in general, the way she talked about other co-workers, the way she tried to avoid seeing them. I don’t think I gave her “character” much attention though, thinking about it now, my attachment was not that deep.

BW: Did do you think she was more beautiful than me? (let’s face it, you did, I rarely straightened my hair or put make up on while she looked perfect all the time).

At times I did, yes. As you said, I always saw her at her very best. But it was not a definitive opinion, I was not saying to myself that I married an ugly woman, no, far far far from it.

The fact you didn’t defend your wife is something that should scream at you, you see, you can’t say you’re married to a goddess and then let people throw mud at her...). She spoke in a derogatory way because you gave her the message, by engaging with her, that your wife has no value to you.

I actually felt that I did defend my wife, to some extent. Maybe some meanings got lost in translation on my BW's post. But I agree with you on the 2nd part; the fact that I allowed myself to be involved in this cat & mouse game with that girl was insulting enough to my fiance/wife at the time. Once I crossed the line, it was clear that I am that kind-a-guy. Reading through all the horrible things that were said, that I wrote, how she replied, the sneaky "innocent" comments. I was really a fool, wasn't I? I missed it all. A few days ago, I was almost certain that G was oblivious of all of this, only saw it as friendly play. I can see now that this was not true. SHE MISSED IT when I stopped doing it. SHE "POKED" me, constantly. Do not get me wrong, please, I am not blaming G for my affair. Here, I called it what it is, an affair! One-sided, two-sided, does it matter? I made mistakes, and now I have to fix them. But the important part is, I can see that G was not the innocent family girl I thought she was.

I am not saying this because that is what BW wants to hear; or else I would really have just lied about it at first and wrongly admitted it, without needing to go through thousands of messages, analyzing each response, interpreting each of G's replies, looking at it from so many different perspectives.

I think that would be a mistake, because based on what you've written, I don't think it's true. I think you idealized this girl and I think you knew all along you were engaging in a fantasy and that what you were enjoying was the clandestine nature of it.

I cannot tell you how many times I almost cracked, I was so close to just scream YES I LOVED HER, I ADORED HER, I WANTED TO PUT HER ON A UNICORN AND FLY WITH HER TO A FARAWAY ISLAND WHERE WE CAN LIVE HAPPILY FOREVER AFTER.

It would have been so easy and would have spared me and BW so much trouble. But for our relationship to recover, to stand a chance, it cannot begin with a lie (not again), even if it was something BW desperately wanted to hear, because she really believed it.

Don't downplay this. You were likely one person's consent and returned interest away from being in a full-blown affair. If you don't acknowledge this and work on how you allowed yourself to have an EA with this woman for years, you leave yourself vulnerable to having a physical affair in the future. Your BS is not overreacting.

I understand how you would feel that. Everybody is somehow adamant it would have evolved into a PA and maybe even D or cancellation of the wedding if G gave me a chance. I do not see it that way. And I am not here talking about my own character and the issues regarding romantic and physical relationships I suffer from, no, I was simply not pursuing her to get somewhere. I was enjoying the game. If she greeted me with open arms, I would have stopped playing. To put it simply, I did not have the will nor the balls to let this get out of control. And I believe it.

was she a direct subordinate

No. Another department altogether.

I don't buy that this was a long done thing - you had a recent photo from this year.

You are right, this was not entirely a long done thing. But it is really hard to explain. You have to see how the convos progressed from me kneeling before her in 2015-2016 to practically indifferent or unresponsive in 2018-2019-2020. I was just not into it anymore. I missed the girl, the friend, but I had forgotten about our scandalous chats and to what degree I stepped over the line. I am sure you'll find a football court filled with people who'd say that downloading another girl's profile pic is a form of EA and plain cheating. No matter. I did worst than that; I wish it was only downloading those 4 pictures over the course of 5 years.

Dole Office Clerk: Occupation?

Comicus: Stand-up philosopher.

Dole Office Clerk: What?

Comicus: Stand-up philosopher. I coalesce the vapors of human experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension.

Dole Office Clerk: Oh, a *bullshit* artist!

Comicus: [grumbles]

Dole Office Clerk: Did you bullshit last week?

Comicus: No.

Dole Office Clerk: Did you *try* to bullshit last week?

Comicus: Yes!

Empress Nympho: Oh Bob, do I have any openings that this man might fit?

Crowd: Whooooaaaaaaa!

Bob: Well, we could use another wine steward.

Josephus: I got a great corkscrew!

Crowd: Whoooaaaaaaa!

Josephus: Damn, this a hip crowd!

We are doing well, I think. If one is spying on us now, he wouldn't notice anything wrong with our couple.

Usually, the mornings are the most dreadful.

Sometimes I wonder how long this will last, this calmness, this peace. I keep imagining BW's rage from D-day and D-day+1, it is scaring me. Someday I will have to face the music, but for now, I am busy with the timeline and with BW's many questions.

I really hope this works; I am trying my best.

Would be a shame for our beautiful family to suffer.

A crumbling yellow note. A rotting jar of jam.

A girl's face here and there.

It was not worth it...

It all comes down to this, doesn’t it? I am not going to sugar-coat it. I will explain it the way it is. I have nowhere to hide, and nothing more to lose.

Did I love her? Yes, and No.

I loved the idea of her, I loved the adventure I convinced myself I was living, I loved how she made me feel.

This resonates as true to me. I often think that it boils down to this in affairs.

I feel like this was a "gateway drug" situation. That might sound odd, but inherently you were trying to fill the same type of void all cheating people do. You need to look at this void and really dissect this. Go to therapy and decide why this type of excitement is needed.

I can trace back and chaos and excitement is something that I always sought out. Whether it was because I was bored, or because I was feeling empty. It's a coping mechanism. You need to go to therapy to trace what's missing in that for you. And, to think about your boundaries and integrity moving forward.

I call it a "gateway drug" not because it wasn't wrong or because I want to minimize it for you. I call it that because it would have escalated even further with a willing party. I wonder a bit if you subconsciously chose her because she wasn't? Later as things get harder or boredom sets in whatever boundary you had left will become negotiable.

So, it's best you see this as a full blown affair and seek treatment accordingly. Take this time to make yourself a much safer partner for your wife moving forward should she choose to stay in this marriage with you. If she doesn't choose that, you will still be doing yourself and future partners a huge favor.

HH,

Good to see you have spent some time reading and thinking.

A crumbling yellow note. A rotting jar of jam.

A girl's face here and there.

I picked that out to make a point for you. Those things are not the issue. They represent the problem you have. Right now you are trying to analyze the surface issues - the who, what, where, when. even your BW's questions you shared are all in the above category.

Now getting to the why is the tough one, and that does take a lot of time and effort to really get to it.

It is good you are starting a timeline. Write it more for yourself, don't write what you think your BW or anyone else wants to see. Re-Read the things you write, even these posts. It is amazing the connections we start to make when we start to look into the mirror of ourselves.

You mention that she made you feel good about yourself, you relished the attention and the flirting, etc. For sure that is so typical of many affairs. Its called going after the ego kibbles, or filling a void inside ourselves.

Effectively this was a long term affair. You invested a lot of emotional energy into this over many years, and you never really let it go entirely, even though the feelings may have subsided. You still held onto the 'something' about her in the back of your mind.

So now you are learning to effectively communicate with your BW. You see her insecurities rising up (was she prettier, etc) but there is no healing yet. I was there at one time too. Why do you think my handle here is Mr.Cleanslate? I had no idea how much damage occurred, how much work was needed to rise above infidelity, and how much work it takes to get to R and fix an M.

Keep talking with your BW. Be honest. But more importantly see a good IC to figure out why you kept this secret romance of yours alive.

I would never be with someone way beneath me in everything....

Honey, they ALWAYS affair down.

You were in an EA. She affaired down with you. She was not beneath you.

I, too, have a sense that you're detaching yourself from your A, not taking the fill responsibility that is yours. I don't think you're being totally honest yet.

The truth is not for other people. It's for you. Truth heals, and you can't heal without truth.

I was simply not pursuing her to get somewhere. I was enjoying the game. If she greeted me with open arms, I would have stopped playing. To put it simply, I did not have the will nor the balls to let this get out of control. And I believe it.

This is the part you need to dig into. As I said earlier, I don't believe it was love. If it was, you had ample time to pursue it and you didn't. But what were you getting out of this behavior??? What was the payoff? and WHY were you willing to risk so much to have it?

A good therapist can help you uncover what's missing in your internal view which created this behavior. Is it a need for attention/validation? Is it a distraction from making yourself fully available in your primary relationship? And where are the character traits which should have stopped you cold?.. honesty, integrity? Where were your boundaries and what were you getting emotionally from breaking them?.. empowerment?

Sometimes what can seem like emotional grandiosity and an overblown ego can be the exact opposite, an internal view which isn't self-validating. And sometimes... it's the other way around where one is self-validating undeservedly a poor character lacking boundaries and integrity.

It's important to get down to the REASONS why this behavior was acceptable to you, and it starts with figuring out the payoff, then tracking back to WHY that payoff was important to you.

Your BW will never feel safe until you can explain what went wrong in your character and what steps you've taken to remediate the broken bits. If you're not in therapy, it would be very wise of you to consider getting started. This is tough, sometimes humbling work, but well worth the effort.

You really do not seem to see that nothing you are writing makes sense, so I'll pair some of your comments up, and then maybe you'll understand why it's hard to believe you are being honest with yourself.

But I knew I felt something for her, and I knew it was not right. A harmless crush maybe, a strong admiration of her character, or something else?

I don’t think I gave her “character” much attention though, thinking about it now, my attachment was not that deep.

---------

How could I have possibly forgotten all those messages and all that flirting? I was oblivious.

For me to have a girl on the receiving end of a messaging app was an unimaginable deal.

------

To put it simply, I did not have the will nor the balls to let this get out of control.

It was foolish, I was begging for trouble, asking to be caught.

------

She did mention that she missed me in one of these recent convos, but I was no more in the same deranged mentality that I found myself in a few years back, so nothing wrong ensued.

In those two years and the many years after, I collected “relics” belonging to her, souvenirs, memories of a friend.

------

Why did I keep them, scattered like that on my phone? I wish I knew. It was an automatic thing, even after so many years; maybe I’d think she looked nice, and I download the picture, never to care for it again.

One time I thought about it, I thought about what I’d tell BW if she found the pictures. I thought I can simply tell her those are pictures of my friend, the ex-coworker who left and whom I miss.

------

Did I think she was beautiful, attractive, made of divine material? Yes, I thought that.

Even I have standards, I would never be with someone way beneath me in everything, it just would not work.

------

You have to see how the convos progressed from me kneeling before her in 2015-2016 to practically indifferent or unresponsive in 2018-2019-2020. I was just not into it anymore.

Even when I used to ask her repeatedly when she was coming and so on, it was not out of desperation, but rather just a show.

I think you are terrified of admitting the hold that this fantasy relationship had over you. You're scared of the consequences with your BW, but you're even more afraid of admitting that for as long as you have known her, all she had to do was snap her fingers and you would be back at her feet.