SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Wellll... we watched the Netflix Abercrombie documentary last night. Very interesting.

Anyhow, H and I got on the topic of exclusion, he doesn't think it's a bad thing when you know, a store is targeting a certain audience. I didn't think much about that- it's one thing to market to a demographic, but completely another animal when you base your hiring practices off that exterior "look" you're going for.

H also talked about bullying and teasing. He said there's nothing wrong with teasing if it makes you conform. That if you're getting bullied because you're different in some way, maybe you should change that thing about you so you fit in. He said, "everyone gets bullied and everyone bullies someone else!"

Well, I got bullied (and abused) and DIDN'T bully anyone else. I knew what it was liked to be picked on and decided not to participate in that game. It also makes it easier not to bully others when you're at the bottom of the middle school social food chain .

Anyway, with my sister abusing me heavily from the time I was 6 on, and being bullied heavily from 5th-8th grade (went to an all girls high school to escape, thank GOD!), I didn't have a core group of support to rely upon. H had his parents who basically adored him to fall back on and didn't have to listen to his sister remind him he's a piece of shit every day.

So yeah, H and I have a VERY different perspective on this.

I still can't help feeling like I'm married to someone who's justifying their own bullying they participated in during school.

He said there's nothing wrong with teasing if it makes you conform. That if you're getting bullied because you're different in some way, maybe you should change that thing about you so you fit in.

And what if you can't change the thing about you that causes the bullying? I'm sorry, but your H sounds like an immature asshole (tell him I won't call him that if he changes his behavior to fit in). I was born with a cleft palate and cleft lip. My reconstructive surgeries were amazing, but when I was a kid, there were a series of medically-related necessities that made the defects more noticeable. I have PTSD from my early medical traumas. And I was bullied... in a private Catholic school, with nuns all around me. There's nothing I could have done to 'change that thing about me so I could fit in.'

There are all kinds of things kids are bullied for, for not fitting in, that they have no control over. How about socio-economic status? How about skin color? How about the cultural issues brought on by FOO?

Honestly, if my H said the kinds of things your H did, I would have a really, really, really hard time ever trusting him, ever. He thinks it's OK to hurt people, and bullying isn't the only way he is capable of hurting people. People don't hurt people in one way, and treat everyone with kindness in every other aspect of their lives.

There is absolutely NO excusing the kind of remark he made.

FWIW... I did some bullying; I carry a lot of shame about it now, even though it was decades ago, and I understand now how I was mirroring behavior that was imposed on me. Name calling, and physical harm aren't the only ways to bully someone. It's when you take a one-up position in how you treat others. Your husband seems to condone that.

Sorry, can't remember when a post upset me so much.

And what if you can't change the thing about you that causes the bullying? ... There are all kinds of things kids are bullied for, for not fitting in, that they have no control over. How about socio-economic status? ... People don't hurt people in one way, and treat everyone with kindness in every other aspect of their lives.

All of this is what I brought up to BH. He said he understood how hard it was growing up like I did, but didn't change his mind.

I think that's the most maddening thing. Not being able to change his mind on such a hugely emotional topic for me. He's changed my mind about a lot of things. How come I don't get the favor returned? Feels disrespectful, but really, it's probably not consciously done. And there are a lot of time I have an idea that doesn't work or an idea in my head that is just plain wrong. But in this, I know I'm right. Bullying for any reason is bullshit. Kinda like an atomic bomb to end WWII. Did it work? Yep. Did it also kill millions of undeserving people? HELL YES. Was there maybe another way of doing it without such destruction? Probably.

I'm sorry you had to get picked on for cleft palate. My son's got a girl he's friends with in his grade who was adopted from China with a cleft palate (it's easy to adopt kids with medical difficulties from there... don't get me started on how they treat their population in that country...). She also had optical nerve cancer and had to have an eye removed between K and 1st. Anyway, the glass eye she had in 2nd grade was getting too small for her socket. It popped out one day and rolled across the floor. His buddy picked it up, cleaned it off and put it back in in the bathroom. Not upset, just very matter of fact.

My DS came home that day and said, "Mom, P is the bravest person I know."

Sometimes (alotta times, really ) my kids drives me nuts. Other times, he takes my breath away.

I have PTSD from this too. This and a lot of other comments and negativity from him the past week were very triggering.

Honestly, if my H said the kinds of things your H did, I would have a really, really, really hard time ever trusting him, ever.

This is what I'm really struggling with lately, trust. How can I trust someone who thinks like this? Like, you've seen what this kind of treatment has done to me growing up? How, if you really care, can you still think like this? I feel like it doesn't matter how I felt or continue to suffer. Bullying is ok in the name of conformity. What a crock of shit.

So, had a discussion last night that cleared things up. Told him how I felt completely invisible and invalidated by his comments. How I was questioning whether or not he was a person that I could feel safe around because he thought that way.

He clarified saying that for things like manners, hair, clothes, hygiene, that teasing was ok because those are usually fixable. That if you're obviously playing with a full deck of cards that you can be responsible for those things. Don't like the teasing, then change it. He said it is in no way ok for people to make fun of things that aren't able to be changed. He used my boy's friend P as an example. He said it's totally wrong to bully people too for things like being mentally slower than others.

So, I asked him where is the line between teasing and bullying? He wasn't sure. He's never really thought about it before. He was teased at school but not bullied. He also had the advantage of a supportive loving family at home to back him up (I didn't!). So, really the teasing didn't escalate into bullying because it didn't bother him as much.

We talked more and he agreed that the line gets crossed when you tell someone to stop and they don't. That mutual respect and a feeling of safety are needed first before you can gently tease each other.

Teasing, bullying, constructive criticism, all those things are wayyyy different from each other. Just, husband hasn't really been forced to contemplate the differences in his life as he's not been severely affected by them before.

So, I'm not married to an asshole. Just someone who is clueless when it comes to the different levels of assholery people subject each other to.

For me, I am confident saying that disrespect and bullying (hurtful comments after the person has been told to stop) is a deal breaker for me. If it happens, I'm gray rocking anyone until apologies are made and change is seen.

Ugh, I think all along I've been an enormously sensitive and easily triggered person married to someone completely oblivious!

[This message edited by MIgander at 2:50 PM, Tuesday, April 26th]

I grew up being teased by my father. He started teasing our son, too. W made me confront it. It was difficult to confront my parents, but I did state that teasing (and fighting between my parents) had to stop, or our visits would. They did - when we accompanied our son.

Starting when our son was about 5, he visited my parents on his own once a year. (He met people on the flights, who I should have networked with!) A year or so ago, he told us he got teased, and my parents fought just as bitterly as normal, when he visited. At least they stopped when we were there, and our son seemed to be happier without the teasing.

Yaeh ... there' no good case for teasing or bullying.

How useful is conforming, anyway? Don't cultural advances come from not conforming?

He clarified saying that for things like manners, hair, clothes, hygiene, that teasing was ok because those are usually fixable. That if you're obviously playing with a full deck of cards that you can be responsible for those things. Don't like the teasing, then change it.

Why is it OK to tease about things that are "fixable"? Trying to wrap my head around this concept.

Well, yeah, cultural advances do come from the non-conformists. I'm more of a creative type and BH is more of a managerial type. We have different perspectives and different personalities. In his world of management and making the trains run on time, non-conformity causes real problems. In my world, conformity leaves you in the dust when other people get a jump on the next new technology.

My job is a VERY rare bird- one where I get to be creative on a technology that's been around since the 1700's- STEEL!

His job is a great match for him- he gets to make sure decisions are made and technology he's launching is conforming to standards, customer expectations and his company's financials.

I have done his kind of work and didn't enjoy it. He could probably do some of mine, but again, is better suited to his.

All that to say, both perspectives have their place.

I agree with you guys though- teasing isn't ok if it's not accompanied by a HUGE amount of respect and warmth and love and appreciation. His balance is wayyyyy off on that. His FOO didn't do emotions- negativity had to be stuffed and hidden away. Positivity had to happen in cautious little doses. Emotions were seen as dangerous and not to be expressed except as demanded by social conventions. SO... teasing was in, conformity was highly valued and the two were combined to enforce each other. I get where he comes from, but I think it's massively fucked up.

We'll see- he's learning new ways of doing things. Hates it because it's not natural to him yet- not a reflex. He's complained about having to sugar coat things or baby the kids when criticizing them. When he's doing that, I hear respect, kindness and concern and even a dose of encouragement from him. Those kind of emotions are difficult to express- he came from a family of sarcasm, negativity, anxiety and cut and dry rules.

I thought when we married it was like east-meets-west. Sometimes I wondered if he married the hot emotional mess I was (and still am quite a bit) because he was tired of living in an emotionally gray world.

Who knows, maybe we'll both be able to rub off on one another?

Why is teasing ok for hair, clothes and hygiene?

As a person who grew up being "lovingly" teased by my dad; who was always the butt of his "jokes" that were just thinly veiled bullying about EVERYTHING about me - my hair, my makeup, my clothing, my shoes, my tattoos, my jewelry and on and on and on... yeah teasing like that is NOT E-V-E-R okay. There's a big difference between affectionate fun-poking that both sides know is said in jest and teasing someone to try to *checks notes* "get them to conform". Conform to what exactly? What HE thinks is acceptable? Who the fuck died and made him the keeper of what's acceptable or not?

Sorry, this is triggery af for me. I was also teased relentlessly through grade school/middle school cus I was the fat kid. That's technically 'fixable' but being teased about it sure didn't feel like fun to me. These days I am still overweight and I am trying really hard to develop better habits and be healthier, and a big part of that is turning down the volume on all the teasing I got about that when I was a young that told me how worthless I was because of it.

And no "everyone does not bully" someone else. I got bullied all over and can honestly say I have NEVER done so to someone else - I have for sure said wrong things and hurt feelings, but never once have I intentionally tried to cause emotional/mental damage to someone. Specifically I haven't because of what I went through. I never want to be a source of pain to someone like that.

Thankfully I accepted that I'm a weirdo a long time ago so I spend way less time these days giving shits what others think of me. Oddly going through the infidelity rodeo also helped me with that - because the truth is that people who pick on others and bully others and tease others to try to get them to fit? Yeah people like that IME are really insecure in their own damn selves and that's a them problem not a me one. The people in my life that respect and love me also love my oddness because it's an integral part of who I am as a person.

We all have a right to be individuals and live our lives the way we want - unless we are harming our selves or someone else - and not have to change to meet someone else's idea of what is normal. Who is to say what is normal?

I have always been very much a tomboy - playing sports with the neighborhood guys instead of playing with dolls or dress up, Have never worn makeup or jewelry - could care less about clothes - give me a comfortable pair of jeans and a t-shirt. My Dad always teased I was the son he never had. My Mom was always trying to get me to be more "girly" The girls in my dorm at college were always trying to get me to wear makeup and change my "look". I even had someone blame me for my husband's cheating because I didn't dress more like a girl!

Now, I could have changed - wear the make up - dress more femininely - but that's now what I wanted and I wasn't going to change to fit in to society's arbitrary idea of how a women should act and dress.

No one has the right to impose their idea of what is "normal" on to someone else's life style. We need to respect each other's individuality - and maybe enrich on own lives by embracing those who are "different."

Men tease, argue, and fight with each other as a means to relate to one another. Hell, even to bond with each other. We roughhouse and wrestle for fun as kids and sometimes grownups. Pranks are part of this too.

How a man reacts to this teasing says a lot about what kind of man he is IMO. Men are used to competition from a very young age.

Boys are taught not to treat girls the same way. Maybe this is what your husband is talking about MIgander.

An example: My daughter in law is a middle school teacher and the school has had to include a shortened table in the cafeteria for a child that identifies as a squirrel. Apparently squirrels don’t sit on chairs to eat lunch. The squirrels parents made the request under inclusion, etc. and the school spent tax dollars to appease them. I don’t know where society draws the line on accommodating people, but this seems like a case where some mild bullying probably would take care of nonsense like this and save tax money for shit that matters.

I don’t know where society draws the line on accommodating people, but this seems like a case where some mild bullying probably would take care of nonsense like this and save tax money for shit that matters.

Oh, please! You think some mild bullying is going to change someone who obviously has some psychological issues? That school should be doing what they can to get this kid some help. If it means, in the meantime, they need to accommodate her/him with something, then go for it. You know that kid doesn't like that they stand out, and wishes they could fit in. Bullying them is NOT going to change that.

I can't believe in any circumstance, bullying to get someone to conform works in the long run. It causes further psychological harm. Can you say PTSD? Geez.

You know, I remember very vividly something our old couple's therapist used to bring to my H's attention. She would always ask (and he'd have to deeply reflect to answer truthfully), whether what he was saying was a way of one-upping someone (usually me, but also at work and in social circles). At first, he didn't quite understand what she was asking. But now he gets it; now he can reflect on what's about to come out of his mouth and question whether he's saying it because his reaction is to one-up someone. And he catches it so much sooner now - mostly before it comes out of his mouth.

So I think the motivation behind what someone is saying is key to determining whether it's likely to be hurtful or not. Why are they saying what they're saying. What is their motivation.

So I think the motivation behind what someone is saying is key to determining whether it's likely to be hurtful or not. Why are they saying what they're saying. What is their motivation.

This is the definite big question. Manners can be changed pretty easily (with time and patience) but motivations require deeper work.

My husband was raised where his dad made sarcastic comments "just teasing" that were really veiled passive aggressive jabs. Really, I don't know that I like his dad much personality wise. Like, if I met him and he wasn't my dad in law, I don't know that I would bother to make friends with him. But husband grew up thinking this way of operating was normal. He can be passive aggressive at times too and I call him on it. He comes back with "I was just joking" and I would counter with, "well, I don't think it's funny."

I think his motives with the whole teasing into conformity thing is to see the kids avoid pain from being different. Different in areas that can be helped. We can buy them better clothes, we can teach them better conversation skills, we can teach them better manners. We are. It's funny actually- adults (parents of their friends) have told me on numerous occasions how much they like having our kids around. That they're so polite, friendly and helpful. That they even wish their kids were more like that . So, maybe we're seeing more of the sloppy behavior at home because that's what kids do- the more they trust you, the more they push the boundaries.

Anyway, I don't think bullying or teasing or passive/aggressive is the solution. I've been open with them about my concerns for them (showing vulnerability). In how I want them to enjoy a wider variety of interests so they can befriend a wider variety of people. So they can be part of a better tribe and be less lonely. I do comment that they need to keep themselves healthy (eat well, feel well and not become overweight), keep themselves tidy (brushed hair, trimmed nails, clean clothes and freshly showered), and present themselves well (good manners).

They're both a bit of odd ducks. DS is a bit Aspie (diagnosed) and DD is into dragons and Pokemon and not so much nails and hair and dolls. DS loves animals, will catch snakes and frogs and take care of baby bunnies. Things most girls in her class aren't into. She has no patience for gossipy mean girl bullshit (which I am SO proud of!) and the people who participate in it. Since her class size is small (60 total, 30ish girls), that means she's got about 12 people who aren't the catty girl type and about 5-6 girls in her core group. I wouldn't say she runs with the "cool crowd," but I don't think that bothers her too much and she seems to have a good socialization.

DS I'm more worried about- he's not athletic (thanks to poor muscle tone from Autism ) and most of the boys in his class are type-A athletes. He's really creative with Legos, minecraft, likes working on projects in the basement with his dad and way more into building and designing things. Not many of the boys in his grade are into that. He's very sensitive, has trouble not personalizing things and is working hard to learn to manage his emotions and perspective. (Wonder where he got that from ). He does have a core group of about 3-4 friends who are odd ducks like him- all good kids who get picked on too and aren't terribly into the type-A domination and pack hierarchy stuff the other boys are. It's funny, when he's one on one with these other boys, they get along great! He just doesn't run well in the pack. Feels like the omega. It's DS I'm most worried about and DS that my husband is most concerned about too.

Thing is, husband's concerns are good ones- fitting in more so you can get along with more people and have a smoother path in life and a better social support. The problem is, he's been programmed to think that the ones worthy of fitting in with are the "cool kids." I call bullshit on that because often the "cool kids" are the ones that act insensitively and bully. They don't own their shit and put it on everyone else. Husband has learned to do this so he can be picked on by fewer people himself. I really think his childhood was more damaging than he admits to or wants to think about. Between his passive aggressive dad and the catty entitled kids in our community we grew up in, I think a lot of damage has been done.

Motive are good, methods are utter shit. Vulnerability? Not to be shown or you'll get attacked by the "cool kids."

Oh, and since there's way more "cool kids" in our ultra monied type A community than not, being a "cool kid" is the way to go. They're not wrong since there's sooooo many of them. Since we're not just like them, we must be the problem. What a load of crap.

Anyhow, we're getting there- husband is improving his methods. I have hope that eventually he'll understand how his aspirations and standards are a bit misplaced.

HERE’S LOOKING AT YOU is a romance written by M Macfarlane. She is British so the book has tons of inside language but my US mind decided it was worth a read, then a second, then a third. It is about bullying and if you decide to read it have tissues ready. The girl was almost obese as a child and was tortured in school. When you get to those passages read them out loud to him. If he gets nothing out of it he has no sympathy for others. Not nice to know.