SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I feel so sick I can barely type this on my phone with my shaking hands. I knew she had cheated in the past and frankly I don’t blame her. For reasons: I have been severely depress for the last ten or twelve years. Even I couldn’t stand me. I been in therapy of one kind or another for almost 30 years and taken mountains of medication of one type or another for as long. I’ve treated her and the kids badly. Mostly with being bad tempered, and plenty of irrational outbursts.( No violence of any kind. I’d hurt myself before I physically hurt anybody despite all my noise.) I couldn’t have done a better job of killing love. Anyone else would have left years ago. What snapped me out of it was phoning her with a bill question and waking her up at 1:00 in the afternoon, then hearing her current boyfriend muttering "whose that" from the other side of the bed. It snapped me out of my depression like nothing ever has. It sounds far fetched and I can scarcely believe it. My thinking is clear and I want to keep us together. In the last month I’ve done more reading and journaling on what needs to change with me and our relationship then ever before.
The causes of our relationship disfunction are deep and wide and equally shared between the two of us. Although we’ve both been in therapy for years we’ve never been able to communicate our joint needs and frustrations in our relationship.
When I told her about my "road to Damascus" moment I think she was just days or hours of walking out for good. This knocked her back emotionally for the last six weeks. She had continued to see her other man and there isn’t much I can reasonably do about that. She’s led me to believe that she would not rule out trying to save our marriage. For that I’m thankful and hopeful. However; here it comes, I’ve recently come across the sexting and more intimate aspects of their relationship. It was always happening as in any affair, but seeing it in black and white was jarring especially since I’ve been relegated to the second bedroom for a number of years now. We were never a good match in terms if sex. If it sounds like I’m obsessed with the sex it’s only because physical contact (not just sex) is important to me and not such with her. No one has held or touched me with other than friendship for almost five years. Turns out we were both compromising our needs for the others happiness. I always worried about her satisfaction because she’s the only women I’ve ever been with. I asked about her comfort and she said she was okay. She just didn’t have a drive or need approaching mine. But now that I’ve read their intimate notes and find out some other guy is having the sex I always wanted with the woman I loved. All the things I’d suggested that she’s now doing with another man. Going forward all I can offer is a shared past, kids etc, and a great deal of work to regain what we had. On the other hand, with the other man she has the intimacy we used to share, the easy and fun way of being together we used to have, and great sex as suggested by yours truly. The intimate stuff shouldn’t bother me because isn’t that what having another man is all about but it sure hurts seeing typed out for you. I don’t know how this is going to turn out but someone is going to be really badly emotionally hurt. I’m trying to keep the "black dogs" at bay, but here I am screaming into the internet void.
Both my parents and my sister are gone now. She is the last person on earth that really knows me. I grieved my parents and sister passing but I was not prepared for the loneliness that followed and persists. Now if I lose my wife completely it will be like the death of the last person that actually knows me. The rest of my lonely life will be nothing but acquaintances and superficial conversations about the weather and hockey. I don’t think I can bear it.
But I’m still willing to work to save what we had. I’m just not convinced she is.
I’m already getting a couple of Gottman’s horseman, contempt, and nitpicking, petty bickering. Like she’s trying to convince herself, and turn me away.

She’s led me to believe that she would not rule out trying to save our marriage.

Brother, gently, you are nothing more than her backup plan. This is such a very common thing for a WW to tell their BH especially when the BH seems desperate to reconcile.

You need to reverse your thinking. Idgaf what happened in the past, SHE IS CHEATING RIGHT FUCKING NOW. You are the prize. She's a cheater and the booby prize.

You're currently doing the "Pick Me" dance and that never works out well for the betrayed.

Distance yourself, see a lawyer, move your assets around if needed and whatever you do, DON'T HAVE SEX WITH HER until she's NC with her AP and she's had an STD test that had come back all clear.

As long as she's seeing him, you need to gray rock her.

Give yourself a deadline not too far away and if she hasn't gone NC with her AP, then you need to file and tell her that she has until it's final to try to convince you that she's worth attempting R.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 9:36 AM, Tuesday, January 10th]

Dear F, sorry to find you here.

I knew she had cheated in the past and frankly I don’t blame her.

Well, you SHOULD blame her. You just swept this under a rug for a long time. She was responsible, not you. She could have left you at any time but she chose to be a freaking cheater and a liar. This tells a lot about her.

I think you’re going to find that you are not depressed once you are no longer around her. Sometimes people are just toxic for each other and that’s what it sounds like. You two are probably not very well matched for a long-term relationship.

Whatever you decide to do try to do it amicably so if you separate be kind because you have children.

I mean the following in the nicest way possible. I do not mean to sound harsh, but it will probably sound that way to you anyway.

Golden R hit the nail on the head when he said to "Gray Rock" her. If you don't know what that means, you can either look up the Hard 180 here in the Healing Library, or else Google it.

It will do one of two things.

It will make her see that you are indeed the Prize and you aren't going to be pushed around and disrespected any longer.

She does not respect you now. Probably hasn't for a long time. If she sees you aren't going to take her bullshit any longer she might, just might, begin to respect you as a man.

The other thing it might do is convince her to go ahead and leave you if that is what she intended to do.

As long as you Simp around her and do the "Pick Me Dance" for her she will disrespect you even more and just stick around to see how long you will grovel for her. That will build up her ego and destroy yours even more. I saw my brother do that with his cheating wife and it was pathetic. Don't do it any more, please.

Please remember that, if you were as bad as you say you were, she had dozens of other options available to her, including just divorcing you. Adultery is the nuclear option to destroy a marriage and the worst option. She denied you sex for years and then gave it to another man.

Stephen Covey had a book a number of years ago titled "7 Habits of Highly Effective People". One of those habits is to begin with the end in mind. In other words, decide exactly what you want and then work backwards listing the steps necessary to try to get to that goal. I know it is hard to think now because your emotions have taken over your life. However, if you can try to think in a strategic manner you might find a little light at the end of your tunnel.

It may be that divorce is the best outcome for your marriage. I know you think your life would be over, but that rarely happens. You would probably end up meeting someone better suited for you... who knows? Anyway, you definitely need to see a divorce and family law attorney and see what the option would look like for you.

I mentioned my brother who was doing the "Pick Me Dance". A younger brother literally grabbed him by the collar and shook some sense into his head. Told him that you can't change a leopard's spots... she is what she is... a cheater... and why would he want to be married to a cheater and be a Plan B... or words to that effect.

My other brother then took him to see a divorce lawyer and got the ball rolling. He had been married 22 years and it was difficult as heck for him to file, but he did. Granted they had no children and it made it easier than someone who has children. Anyway she tried to get him to change his mind, but he stuck to his guns. He ended up with a much better suited woman who had morals and integrity for the last years of his life. He ended up reasonably happy after a few years.

Sometimes you will see it said on this site that you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. After my sister-in-law tried to come back when he filed for divorce he saw her for who she really was and he no longer wanted a marriage with her.

Cooley said something for you to think about. Is it possible that a lot of your depression was caused by your wife and her denial of sex and other actions?

Again, I mean all of this with kindness even if it doesn't sound that way. Imagine I am your best friend and I am trying to shake some sense in your head and get you see the bigger picture if possible.

The best of luck for the outcome of your situation.

I'm going to take you at your word that you've been a bad husband and father, but you know what that means? It means you deserved to be divorced, NOT that you deserved to be cheated on. Your WW's perfidy is not about you. It's about her. It's about her values and her integrity. Cheating is about character, not about circumstances.

There's nothing about setting boundaries which requires you to be mean or hostile, but the bottom line is that without boundaries, you'd be "pick me" dancing, competing for your own wife. The problem with that is even if you win, you lose, because all you've "won" is an unreformed cheater. You can be sad for the way you've behaved and you can make real and lasting changes so as not to relapse to that way of being, and you can do that without compromising good and healthy boundaries. It's absolutely do-able. The first thing you have to do though is to recognize that cheating is about the cheater. It's not about us.

Oh I’m so sorry you are going through this. Gently, stop taking the blame for being victimized. She is abusing you and you are making excuses for her. You are working hard to get her to notice you and fall madly in love. It never works you are validating and reinforcing the behavior. She’s happy to have you on the bench waiting for your number to be called.

Like C2H said your depression might stem from living with an abuser. You have nothing to work with, she is cheating right now. Time to 180, go NC and prepare for the end of this M.

Thanks for quick, honest, and not surprisingly consistent responses.
Our children are grown and happily married now. And grandchildren too. We’ve been married for more than forty years now and we both have gotten into bad habits regarding how we treat each other. High school sweethearts, you see. Not only is this relationship all of my adult life it’s been most of my entire life. I can’t understand how the woman I married became this person living part time in our home. Everything I ever wanted out of life I thought we had and now I’m going to lose it all, if it was a ever there at all and not just an illusion. How much of my life has been a lie.

I have resisted the urge to question the kids as to their version of events. I’d always thought they were pretty happy children despite my depression and anger. I don’t want to taint their memories of childhood by emphasizing our dysfunctional marriage.

My present counsellor wants me to do the 180, and focus my on becoming the improved person I want to be. FFS! I’m more than sixty years old. I am the person I want to be. The depression and anger I have a better hold on now. I honestly can’t see the point in trying to reinvent myself. I’m not sure I can summon the energy to do it either. I had everything I wanted out of life and I blew it.

We were both married too young and brought too many unresolved and poorly managed issues to the marriage.

I can’t visualize the shrinking violet I married as an abuser, in fact she says that she’s been traumatized by the marriage. And yet I recall all the gaslighting that she did. To the point I can hardly make a decision without her. When I ask for her opinion she’d claim not to have one. But if I made a decision it was wrong.

My great senior wisdom that I can offer to the world is this: "Know thyself." And don’t get married before you’re thirty. And if she tells her friends that "I can; save, change, help, or improve him". Run, far and fast. She doesn’t want you. She wants a project so she can feel needed and validated.

God, what a mess.

Thanks again, fellow humans of the internet.

If you continue to cling to "I can’t" then nothing will change.

You can remain in the home you are in with a cheating wife who has no remorse or regard OR you can try to change the situation.

As others stated, maybe the marriage is causing your supreme and continuing unhappiness.

I see the signatures marked "happily reconciled". And want one of those.

But she also shrieked until I renovated a bathroom in the middle of a nervous breakdown. Right now I’m renovating another bathroom so she can move in there and not even leave the house and can screw ger boyfriend right underneath my bedroom. She doesn’t see why I would be upset.

At this point I’m finishing it up so we can sell the house and I can get started being poor and lonely.

Oh God. What whining. I can hardly stand myself sometimes.

Are you saying your M was good until you started getting depressed 10-12 years ago?

I’m more than sixty years old. I am the person I want to be.

Are you saying that you want to be the depressed, angry, lousy husband and father that you claimed to be in your first post? That's not how I read the post.

The depression and anger I have a better hold on now. I honestly can’t see the point in trying to reinvent myself. I’m not sure I can summon the energy to do it either.

If you're 65, you've can expect just about 20 more years of life. How do you want to live those years? What's better - being single or being the H of a W who naps with a POS who is in a relationship with a betrayer?

You realize, don't you, that the demographics are in your favor. There are more single women in the 60s than single men. In all probability, you would not have to be alone.

Depression is exhausting. The less depressed you feel, the more energy you'll have. You've started. Your eureka! moment came because something changed in you that freed up the energy you needed to see you more as you are than as you are in your head.

Some depression is sometimes thought of as anger turned inward. Does that fit for you for at least part of yours? In any case, you've apparently been fighting emotional problems for decades, and that indicates you have hopes of feeling better and being better. That's nothing to sneeze at. Keep fighting. Keep open o the possibility that a good life really is within your grasp.

I had everything I wanted out of life and I blew it.

Gently, was that before or after she started cheating? What was that 'everything'?

Your W says the M was traumatizing for her. Perhaps you really should split. Have you talked about D? I've R'ed, but I can tell you I've met other BSes who have D'ed, and they've lived good, satisfying lives after D.

Bottom line: you're the prize. Your W isn't, and she won't be as long as she's cheating. You may love her and want to R, but remember: they ALWAYS affair down. Just as your W is affairing down with her om, he's affairing down with her.

Tell your W you're interested in R. Ask her to end her A. If she does, great - you can start to put together your R. If she doesn't, great - you can start a hard 180 or just go straight to filing for D. Either way you win. Really.

What does separation mean to you? I thought it meant time apart so each can work on their emotional stuff separately. Others think it’s just a warm up to the final divorce act.

Btw where I live infidelity counts as nothing in a divorce. I’ve known couples that have hired lawyers who kept arguing until the last dime had been squeezed out of the estate. Then suddenly present an acceptable settlement. So we’re going to have to negotiate or mediate an agreement. If it comes to that. So calm and cool is the order of the day.

I’m rambling. The last six weeks have been a sea change. And it appears there are still foundations of my ethos that still need to be removed. It’s like down is up and the sun rises in the west from now on.

So I’m off to check the price of copper pipe. Yikes

Thanks again humans of the internet.

If she is bringing her BF to your home - I doubt she cares about Reconciliation right now.

You need to figure out how to survive after a D. You need to be prepared for it.

I spent 6 months trying to fix my marriage with a cheater. You are wasting your time. I learned that the hard way. But I was smart enough to have an exit strategy just in case.

And a day came when it was needed. A day came when I had to face reality and realize I had two choices - get out or stay with a lying cheating H.

Face the reality if your situation. Figure out how to get out of this marriage and move towards a more peaceful life. Be positive. Be proactive.

You can do this.

I’m renovating another bathroom so she can move in there and not even leave the house and can screw ger boyfriend right underneath my bedroom. She doesn’t see why I would be upset.

Are you saying she is planning on having sex with her AP while you are living there?

You might be hard to live with, but if this is her plan she is a monster.

She’s had three affairs in the last eleven years that I know of. I realized I’d blown it when I got ; love you, but not in love with you talk. What the hell is that even? She might as well call me "pal".

I just don’t understand infidelity. I never wanted to bed other women. Sure I looked at other women. Because I’m not dead, just married. I guess it’s the difference between loyalty and devotion. Most dictionaries use the words interchangeably. I am loyal to her, like a kicked puppy that keeps coming back. When I should have been just devoted to us.

How can anybody just disrobe and climb into bed with some one else, a stranger even? What do you talk about after? The weather, the latest sports trade, god forbid politics!! Do people really just walk around driven by their base instincts? Now when I see a crowd of my fellow citizens I wonder how many are only reacting to their need for food, and reproduction. I’m just really baffled by the whole thing. Sure I’ve gone without sex and even intimacy lately but I made a promise to her and everyone else in the church before God. Isn’t that what separates us from the lesser beasts? I’m just baffled by the whole thing

In terms of "it all". I’m not terribly ambitious. I just wanted what I had when I was a kid. Safe and comfortable home, a good place for the kids to grow up, two loving and married parents. A "home" in every sense of the word.

And a person that loved me back for who I was and not what they thought I should be or do. I thought she was the one that made me a better person than I was. Now, maybe that wasn’t alway the case. And that is hard to accept. More difficult than the infidelity.

As the promise said "to have and to hold, forsaking all others, until death do you part".

Thanks fellow humans.

Are you saying she is planning on having sex with her AP while you are living there?

That was the latest when talked about renting an overpriced and nonexistent apartment for her.

I’m not really good at the cutting and pasting. So I’ll try to answer some general themes.

Personal integrity, honesty, keeping your word, a half truth is still a lie, just doing what you said you would when asked is hugely important to me. Over the years I’ve had more opportunity then most to see people lie and cheat and try to get away with whatever they could just for money. And it’s just sickening to see. I don’t know how they have any self respect. Kind of like how you kind internet humans view my unwavering loyalty. Lolz.

I have an appointment with my counsellor that I haven’t seen since November. I’m planning on laying out everything I’ve found and all the results of the mountains of reading and reflecting I’ve done. Then lay out what I think will be an attempt to get us in for some MC (see that abbreviation!). That will either be the beginning of the end or the beginning of another beginning (??).

I’ve looked at some local marriage counsellors, and think I’ve found a couple that might do. Wow, looking for counsellors was quite a trip. Some are so young that they could only be reciting the text book, and others look like they would kill and eat any man that dared set foot in their office.

So that’s the holding pattern I’m in until my next appointment. My next moves are pivotal and I want to get it right.

I really appreciate all the feedback. Because, men really don’t want to hear this stuff. Maybe a highlight reel when it’s over, that’s about it. Like with depression most people think it’s contagious and if they don’t speak of it, it can’t exist.

The dogs are glaring at me with their legs crossed right now.
Thank you for your words of encouragement.
So adieu fellow internet humans

Sixty is nothing. I have relatives that lived over 100 and they were still driving cars. You need to get out of this mess ASAP because it’s going to break down your health. Get to an attorney, especially one that works with financial issues, and get this thing settled as quickly as possible. She’s been long gone out of your marriage. You need to move on and find your own life because it’s out there somewhere. Do not stay in the house and feel sorry for yourself. If you’re able ride bikes, exercise, at the gym, or at home, take up hobby’s, and meet people.

There are men on here who found great joy after their divorce. They’ve had girlfriends, girls as friends, and some have married again. Don’t let sunk cost keep you frozen.

I’m more than sixty years old. I am the person I want to be. The depression and anger I have a better hold on now. I honestly can’t see the point in trying to reinvent myself. I’m not sure I can summon the energy to do it either. I had everything I wanted out of life and I blew it.

I never saw the objective as reinventing yourself. It's more like just being the best you that you can be. It's setting aside all of the energy that you've been putting into trying to please someone who is abusing you and focusing on yourself and what a happy future will look like without that unhealthy relationship. You're not ruling out R, but you're not even considering it unless the WS is ready to end their abusive behavior, accept responsibility, and demonstrate genuine remorse.

I'm sorry that you've had such a rough time over these many years, but the gas-lighting and manipulation that you've been enduring across much of that time has certainly not been beneficial to trying to get emotionally healthy.

She took a vow to support you through those difficult times. She had one honest option if she wasn't happy with your progress and that was D. Instead she chose to keep you on the hook to avoid disrupting her life while she betrayed you. She is not the person you thought, and maybe never was.

If you go back and review your life during those times with the understanding that she was cheating on you all along I think that you'll see things in a different perspective. Right now you're accepting all the guilt and blame that she's dishing out because you want to stay together and that's what she's demanding. But that's probably not what really happened.

Now if I lose my wife completely it will be like the death of the last person that actually knows me. The rest of my lonely life will be nothing but acquaintances and superficial conversations about the weather and hockey. I don’t think I can bear it.

How can both of these things be true? On one hand you say that you're the person that you want to be, but on the other you say that the rest of your life will be lonely without this one person?

I do understand how you feel. I thought my wife and I were that one in a million couple with true love. My image of myself as a worthwhile person was largely based around my ability to make this one very special person happy.

She sat on the fence for almost two months after Dday. It wasn't until I started focusing on myself and my own happiness going forward that she came off the fence and committed to R. I told her that I loved her but if she chose something different that I knew that I would be happy again. And I wasn't going to wait forever. That shook her.

You can be happy again. Once you start focusing on that and remove the toxic influence of infidelity from your life I think you'll see that.

Wishing you the best.

Nothing you did made her cheat. The marriage did not do it. Stop living in that. Your wife is a serial cheater. Something inside her fundamental value system is broken (the part where integrity and compassion live), which allows her to believe that her immediate wants and needs come first, despite your feelings. There are MANY things she could have done if she was unhappy instead of cheating. She made the most horrendous, selfish, entitled choices about your life without consulting you. Cheaters are incredibly selfish and they LIE...they LIE about everything. Your wife is showing you that she does not give one crap about your wellbeing or feelings. When people show you who they are, believe them. The multiple affairs that she has had are showing you something important about her core value system. You have to decide if you want to tolerate that in your life.

I am in R and have been for 7 years. BOTH people need to want it. The person who caused the TRAUMA (cheating is a trauma) should be the one who is showing the betrayed spouse on a daily basis that they are remorseful and that they deserve the gift of R. This is the opposite of what your wife is showing you.

Somewhere on this site is information about what remorse looks like. If your wife is unwilling to do any work, things will not change. There are people who post here that have been staying with an unremorseful cheater for years and are miserable. Put yourself first. Go back to counseling and find your inner strength. Decide what you can or cannot live with and take the actions necessary to achieve it.

1. Marriage counseling is a waste of money given you are living with an unremorseful cheater. Her actions are saying she is not interested in equal communication, she is interesting in doing what she wants to do. Many marriage counselors enable the bullshit of the cheater. If you DO decide on MC, please interview potential counselors to see how they deal with infidelity. There should be no blaming the victim (you) or it is a massive waste of time. As I said, your wife could have taken many other actions if she was unhappy instead of cheating. Period. She needs IC, and a lot of it, if she wants to be healthy enough and worth a continued marriage to you.

2. We often say on this site that you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it. This means that you need to do a few things. They will work or they will not work. You cannot control the outcome, but you CAN make decisions about your future happiness. The first is that you need to STOP being a husband...STOP doing things for her. She is not being a wife and does not deserve the consideration. The second is that you go to a lawyer and have a conversation. Knowledge is power. The third is that you do a 180 (you can find the information on this site). You must take your power back. Right now, there is no reason for her to change. Why would she? She gets to do what she wants by manipulating your feelings. You will gain some respect if you set some boundaries.

Are you saying she is planning on having sex with her AP while you are living there?

That was the latest when talked about renting an overpriced and nonexistent apartment for her.

HELL NO! You are not renting an apartment for her. She can do that herself. You are not allowing her to bring her OM to your home. Inform her that it is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. Period. Nope. No way.

Gently, you are enabling your W to be a betrayer. That's not good for either of you. You are letting your dysfunction control your behavior.

What principles are telling you to use your energy to make your home safe for her to fuck someone else?

What principles are telling you that renting an apartment for her to fuck someone else is a good thing to do?

What principles are telling you not to listen to your W when she says the M has been traumatic for her or that she loves you but is not in love with you?

What principles are telling you to hold onto a M in name but not in reality?

You are doing yourself a great disservice. What do you need to do to start living the life you want to live - in a world in which you cannot control anyone but yourself?

Bro, you deserve so much more than you're giving yourself.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:09 PM, Wednesday, January 11th]