SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

First post here, and sorry if I am not up on all the structure / acronyms etc

TL;DR: What should I be thinking of / expecting in this situation - what does effort / reconciliation about look like?

Attempt at brief on summary of situation
- We have been married for 13 years, with 2 tween children
- Day after Father in law passed, received notification about rating a recent hotel stay on tablet
- Did some digging found multiple day use only of Hotel stays every 2-3 weeks for past 2-3 months
- Kept investigating and supporting all the stuff around funeral events etc
- Day before funeral she receives an eMail from the other guy (who was her brothers best friend) with a list of
accommodation options for a weekend getaway
- Both days of the funeral (formal buddhist / toaist) he was there
- On first night of funeral could tell something wasn't right with me - asked about Hotels - she said it wasn't
what I thought, but would talk to me after the following day
- Straight after funeral on 2nd day and family events, dropped her nephew home to go see him (to end things according to her)
- Told me hotels stuff was for work related things, and could talk to colleague, confronted about Guy and where she was then, and all was reveled.

-Supposedly affair only last 2-3 months / no discussion on us, or her dads illness etc - feels it was escapism
-Supposedly whilst there was the hotels - he was only there for an hour or less and most they ever got to was oral
(felt still to guilty yet to go further)...

- Since then I have had my cousin, my grandfather and I had previously to this some former colleagues pass away (7 deaths in 3 months)

Stuff about supporting reconciliation
- Both of us made a commitment to trying to work this out with path to couples counseling etc
- Since the event she has been more expressive in both emotional expression and physical touch (was always looking for me to start anything and get mad if I didn't blames her heritage / upbringing)
- I have attended several individual counseling sessions etc, and trying to create some time for myself - but holding off on the next one to see what she is responding with)
- She attended 1 telehealth session AFTER I had to push her several times, they asked her to read some specific books (I got them for her kindle)
- She hasn't read the books, she hasn't had a follow-up session
- A couple weeks ago, I was so mad and messaged her about not prioritising us (always other things, family, kids, work etc) she didnt want to talk about it to later that day, I got fed up and went to go for the rest of the day and we talked
- I had asked her ages ago to write a letter to me detailing why she loves me etc (trying for reconnect and confirmation - that was almost 90 days ago, still waiting letter)
- Admitted that she is a mess, that everything with her dad and this is to much and she just doesnt want to think about it
- Promised to have another session to start working on this, or at least something, emailed to make another session, nothing and hasn't bothered calling

I am skipping lots of other odds and ends, to make this not to much of an essay but just context but

What the hell does reconciliation even look like?
What is reasonable expectations? Am I expecting too much? Like her doing something to understand the situation, take responsibility? Atonement?

What is reasonable in terms of prioritising / activities around this?
There is lots going on with her dad as well? Which means i keep trying to be good and give her time and space, but I matter as well?

How long is long (I know piece of string and all)

Thanks for reading, and any advice - due to the nature of everything there really is no one I can just turn to and go what the..

First, I’m really sorry that you’re here and that you’re going through this. I was there a couple of years ago and though things are much better now and I’m a stronger person who understands myself and our marriage better, I still wish it didn’t happen.

Your story is similar to many of ours. I’ll make some assumptions here but will also hopefully offer you hope.

You’re likely only getting partial truth and a lot of lies. The real situation is probably way worse because most cheaters when caught, continue to lie, even if they still love you. They justify it by not wanting to hurt you more and often don’t want to do what it takes to break up and do the hard things they know need to do because they’re used to the thrills of cheating and all the dopamine and validation that comes from it. Many take a while to get to that realization and only after facing serious consequences like you kicked them out, or realizing what they may miss out on the rest of their lives with you, or sharing the kids and comforts of a long term relationship.

When I had my D-Day, I realized quickly I wanted my marriage to survive and I that I still had deep love for my cheating wife who’s been unfaithful for years with more than one affair partner. But I also realized she was lost and our marriage wasn’t as strong as I thought it was. But none of that still justified her actions and sacred promises we made to each other. It took her longer to realize that but only after I clearly outlined how quickly I wanted her to move out and proceed with the divorce, if she wasn’t willing to completely change and break up with the double life she was living all these years.

I wrote her a long email where first, I told her I want for our marriage to survive and I’m willing to change, and going forward, it’ll be a much different marriage and I’ll strive to be a much different partner for her. But I also asked for a number of commitments and boundaries in return, immediately, if she was willing to do her part. And that there will not be another chance if she continued to lie or had one more relationship.

Fortunately for me, she committed and began to do the work immediately. Two years later, things are still hard at times and I still go through difficult days and we both had to go through a lot of therapy, both individually and as a couple. We still have years to go, according to the professionals we’re working with and people here.

But it’s possible to save your relationship if you both still want it. You’ll have to figure out and it won’t take long. Unfortunately, either path is filled with a lot of pain and a lot of hard work which you did nothing to deserve. Fortunately, many marriages survive this and become much stronger and closer they’ve ever been.

But it takes two. You need to know the full story to move on from it and it doesn’t sound like you’re getting it. You should prioritize your own self first, have a lot of hard conversations and decide what’s best for your future, and trust your instincts on this.

But you’ll get through it and while it’s hard to believe now, life can return to feel normal again, whether it is with your wayward partner, or without. Two years later, on the same day, I’m sometimes still having flashbacks and "pity me" moments but for most of the day, the past events seem like a something I’ve accepted it happened and I’m ok with it and it seems like a bad dream.

It’ll get worse before it gets better but in the process, you’ll discover more about yourself and life than you ever thought you you could, and the strength to get through it.

Welcome to SI and I'm very sorry that you're joining our group. In the JFO (Just Found Out) forum, there are some posts pinned to the top that we recommend new members read. Also, there are some with bull's eye icons that are helpful, too. I recommend that you read the Consequences 101 and Before You Say Reconcile - Recover. There's a list of acronyms located in the Healing Library, which is another great resource.

I'm so very sorry for your losses in such a short period of time. I had 5 family members pass in 7 months, and the grief is almost overwhelming. Dealing with infidelity on top of that is unbearable.

First, take very good care of yourself at this time. IC (individual counseling) can be very helpful. If this IC doesn't help you, look for another. It's important to find one that is a good fit, and sometimes it takes a couple of tries to find the right one. My first IC was ok, but not super helpful and processing through stuff. I'd say that the advice I got here was better. My second IC was a betrayal trauma specialist, and was so much more helpful in helping me process the trauma.

Your WW (wayward wife) needs IC to dig into her whys and to work on being a safe partner. I'd recommend that she read How to Help Your Spouse Heal by Linda MacDonald. It's a little over 100 pages and is a good starting point for her. (You can read it and let her know what may apply in your situation and what doesn't.) Another good reference book is Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass. MC (Marriage Counseling) at this point is a mixed bag. Many MC therapists go by the "unmet needs" falacy, and can shift the blame for her A (affair) to you. The M (marriage) didn't cheat - she did. The cheating was 100% her decision (not a mistake) and all of this is on her. If she had issues, she could have talked to you about it, suggested MC, or divorced you, but she chose to try to fix her problems with somebody else's genitals.

Is the AP (affair partner) married? If so, please tell the OBS (other betrayed spouse). Not only is it the right thing to do, but it lets the OBS make decisions about their life based on the truth.

If you're having problems with eating, sleeping, depression or anxiety, please see your doctor for meds. They can be helpful to get you through the initial phase. Also, please be tested for STDs/STIs - and your wife needs to be tested, too. There are some nasty diseases out there that can turn to cancer.

Ask for a timeline of the A, with dates, as much detail as you want, and with her thoughts/feelings at the time. Ask if there have been others that you should know about. If she comes clean now, it's better than continuing to lie to you.

Please watch her actions and don't listen to her words. She's already shown that she is a liar. Frankly, her actions aren't showing that she wants to R (reconcile). She needs to prove that she wants to be married to you and she should be driving the R bus. R is hard work, and both need to be in 100%.

ETA:

What is reasonable expectations? Am I expecting too much? Like her doing something to understand the situation, take responsibility? Atonement?

Reasonable expectations at this stage is that she should be trying to move mountains. She absolutely has to dig in to work on herself or she will repeat the behavior...if this isn't a repeated behavior (meaning, she's had more than one A).

Atonement? Well, there is no justice with infidelity. That is going to be up to you and may change as time goes by.

It takes 2-5 years to heal from infidelity, and that's just you. After the 2-5 years, then longer if you R. Healing isn't linear and everybody goes at a different rate.

[This message edited by leafields at 5:05 AM, Monday, August 26th]

The effort looks monumental and the time is 2-5 years.

Your wife is still lying and attempting to rugsweep. The A may be ongoing. Hard to say.

You should commit to attempting R, not to R. She broke your wedding vows, so you can hardly believe she is committing to anything.

You need to infidelity first aid:

-A full written timeline of the affair, with polygraph to confirm.
-You need to tell the other betrayed spouse (if there is one).
-Complete electronic transparency. All devices, all accounts, all passwords. This should include her entire (almost certainly deleted now) text and email history with AP.
-No contact with AP with no contact message sent in front of you. Blocked everywhere.
-Need to know how much her brother knew and when.

She isn't doing enough.

She should be willing to crawl across broken glass for you.

She booked how many hotels in how many months? Can't read a book. Can't do individual counseling....

Her head is still way up her ass.

If you haven't read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" you should. Not just her. It's a great litmus test for whether she is being a strong rebuilder, or putting you in the "detain and torture" mode.

Are you willing to hazard a guess which set of behaviors she is modeling?

This0is0Fine post just above is comprehensive and accurate imho.

Rugsweeping will bring you pain down the line. It may take years but the A trauma will rear it's ugly head again, almost guaranteed. By demanding and doing the things in the post above you can take back the initiative and see if she is really committed to working on the marriage. If she isn't, you have nothing to work with and should read up on the 180 process and talk to a lawyer asap. The 180mprocess will help you either way so read on it in the library here.

And I completely agree she is not being honest with you. It's called trickle truth and waywards do it almost universally. That's where a detailed timeline comes in. Without the truth you don't know what you are reconciling from and she isn't confronting what she actually did. She doesn't want to be the villain in her own marriage story but alas, she is. No one gets hotel rooms multiple times and only does oral. Waywards somehow expect to be believed when they tell outrageous lies like that but those lies will kill the marriage as much as the A itself in some cases. Don't accept them... that's a form of rugsweeping.

Agreed with all that This0is0Fine posted-- tell your WW these are bare minimums that you should expect. Give her a deadline of a week to 10 days to accomplish the timeline. The written timeline can be used down the road if your ever wish to polygraph your WW on her truthfulness that she told you everything.

One additional requirement that I haven't seen mentioned, you and your WW should both be tested for STDs-- full spectrum from HPV to HIV. This is incredibly important health-wise. I don't know if you and your WW practice safe sex currently, but you should not have unprotected sex with your WW until you both test clean. It may be too late, which is why you should be tested as well.

I also doubt it was limited to just oral... BJs can just as easily occur in a car and its much cheaper than paying for a hotel room.

Sorry you're going through this Frontier. This site is a wealth of information and support, please use it while you navigate through what will probably be the most painful period of your life. The only thing I can imagine would be worse would be a death of a child, god forbid.

Stay strong, know your worth and demand it of your wife. She should be fighting to keep you. Please inform the OBS (Other Betrayed Spouse) if there is one. Also consider exposing your wife's affair to certain family members (both parents and discreet siblings) otherwise your wife may start rewriting your marriage history to justify its end if you eventually split up (suddenly you are an abusive and neglectful spouse after years of no complaints.) You will also need their support during this period.

Good luck.

Unfortunately you were all correct -

The story I had with the hotels before was that the first one or two bookings were work related (and I could verify with a colleague of her's to validate [they needed a space away from the office to work on certain coaching/hr something who knows - also the colleague whilst male is DEEEFFFFF not into girls]) - but the remainder was her working from the hotel, with then a liaison with the other part for a small period of time.

The claim was that she was still to guilty, and too embarrassed to be see naked etc.

Last night, I had a discussion around this next counseling session (it had been booked, but she hadn't seen the email for it yet - had forward me the trail to show timelines though)

I did comment around not having a lot of trust etc in this, and then brought up going for example I dont really believe you about not having sex at the hotels - she looked shady I pressured again

anddd... yep I let my hopes override my judgement - the two last hotel sessions did involve sex (confirmed they used protection but still)

I obviously was very upset, and questioned her on why lie about it, her explanation was she panicked at the time, that I really didn't ask again and that she was going to wait for the couples counseling (as I did say something earlier about wanting a safe / moderated space for some of these conversations, but that was under the assumption that I knew when that might occur)

I said to her the lies and evading are by far the worst now, that by doing that it takes away any form of progress to date.

Rightly or wrongly I dont know, but I have asked her to have a couple days to really think through what else she needs to share / come clean about, (as with the situation with her dad and all the funerals all the timelines are hazy?)

Her ask is that the deadline for coming clean is til after her 2nd session with IC (next Thursday).

It's going to be a rough week as well

Sunday - Fathers day,so partially mine, but also off to the cemetery for her dad - and then connecting with my mum and uncles about the loss of my grandfather

Tuesday - FULL day of prayers and events for 3 months since Father in Law passed

Thursday - her IC session and a major session around my work thats stressing me as well

End of next week... whatever else comes out from the reveal.

I did ask her to develop a timeline but she pushed back on that, talking about what value that brings, but as I said to her - she went from catching up with this guy and within 6-8 weeks sleeping with him, with them only physically seeing each other less than 10 times in that period of time.

I am honestly so undone right now and dont know what to think or feel

[This message edited by Frontier at 1:37 AM, Thursday, August 29th]

Tell her the written timeline is to be used as the basis for a polygraph that she will eventually take if you decide to offer her Reconciliation. Even if you don't believe in the reliability of polygraphs-- 1) she probably doesn't know your thoughts on this; 2) she needs to understand how far you are willing to go to get the truth and 3) how little you currently trust your WW.

In that vein, even if you have no doubts that your children are yours, tell your wife you're going to DNA test your children. Tell her you are going to submit your DNA and your kids' DNA to one of those ancestry sites (23andMe, Ancestry,com, etc.) So your kids won't know why they're really being tested but you will know when you get their results whether you are their biological father.

Also Frontier, you need to get some legal advice-- ASAP. Start scheduling consults with the most highly rated Family Lawyers in your area. Go to more than one--this will conflict out those attorneys so your WW can't even talk to them. You need to understand what a divorce will look like for you in your State (every State is a little different)-- total costs, child support, potential spousal support/alimony, living arrangements during divorce and custody rights...and a lot more. Even if you think you don't want a divorce (at this time-- you're really early in the process,) you need to know what it all entails. You don't need to tell your WW you're doing this but if she accidently finds out, don't worry about it... she has destroyed your old marriage, only you can decide if you even want to attempt to build a new one.

But have you asked your WW if this is an exit affair? Does she want a divorce, have you asked her?

Look up the 180/gray rock... implement it as much as you are comfortable with it. Personally, I'm a firm believer of a hard 180 for at least a week to see how your WW responds.

Keep busy if at all possible to avoid overthinking everything (very easy said, hard to do, I know) Stay hydrated, eat clean (expect a loss of appetite and subsequent weight loss--it's called the infidelity diet, it sucks but oh, does it work) If you aren't a member at a gym, I highly suggest joining one-- a place to get away from your WW, and a great place to work out stress and anger by pushing and pulling on weights. Even better if gym has a heavy bag so you can punch away for awhile without hurting yourself too much. The expected weight loss and hitting the gym is going to do wonders for your looks and your self-esteem with the added bonus of driving your WW batty with your actions during the 180.

Good luck, keep us updated, stay strong.

I did ask her to develop a timeline but she pushed back on that, talking about what value that brings, but as I said to her - she went from catching up with this guy and within 6-8 weeks sleeping with him, with them only physically seeing each other less than 10 times in that period of time.

You cannot start to repair if you don't know what you are repairing from. You are still behind the starting line until you have had a full account of the A. At that point you know what it is your are even working toward forgiving. Up until that point your are still being deceived and the damage is ongoing.

In that vein, even if you have no doubts that your children are yours, tell your wife you're going to DNA test your children. Tell her you are going to submit your DNA and your kids' DNA to one of those ancestry sites (23andMe, Ancestry,com, etc.) So your kids won't know why they're really being tested but you will know when you get their results whether you are their biological father.

The kids are def mine, they little mini me's in so many different ways - cause of their mixed heritage B&W photos of them and myself and my sister as kids are pretty damn identical - wherever we go - people come up to me going ah your *kids name* dad - we could tell just be seeing the similarities between you.

The reality of this situation is, I prob know within +/- a month of when this started - so the timeline is really between 2 to 4 months between it starting and it ending.

In terms of life before, I can without being naive (as much as one can be) know that it hasn't happened before.
Til this last year, she was so kids focused, EVERYTHING in her life revolved around the kids - I was the one going to her all the time you need to get out more, need to do things outside of the kids, this is going to drive you crazy.

Everything was 2nd to the kids, now they have entered tween stages, it meant they werent as mum focused, I also was out of work last year for about 8 months, which gave her the opportunity to then go back to work 5 days, get promotions, spend time with friends and it was a breath of fresh air.

During this time, we started focusing on getting more healthier together, I lost like 33kgs (72lbs) in 12m, we were more affectionate, I was a tonne less stressed - we were able to go do more things together.

Then her dad got sick, and life just went sideways, her work stress mounted, and the kids really started being tweens aka.. moody pain in the ****'s

Somehow this ability for escapism came to be, and I enabled it by pushing her to be out more, do other things take her mind of things.

These things don't excuse it, but I at least can see where the trail began, but she is like a different person to me in a lot of ways on letter this happen.

Today is 3 months since their last hotel hookup, and before even 9am this morning his name came up in a conversation with my BiL (cause its his best friend)

in a couple of days its the 3 month ceremonies of my father in laws passing - and I am taking comfort at least in the fact that unlike at the funeral he wont be there - as according to my BiL he is overseas (I didnt ask or anything, he was just talking about him in a convo) -

Everyone just thinks my greyness atm, is due to all the funerals and work stress - cause really no one knows about this.

You cannot start to repair if you don't know what you are repairing from. You are still behind the starting line until you have had a full account of the A. At that point you know what it is your are even working toward forgiving. Up until that point your are still being deceived and the damage is ongoing.

Thank you thats a better way of phrasing it - I am parking that conversation atm til after her IC session next Thursday.

Also Frontier, you need to get some legal advice-- ASAP. Start scheduling consults with the most highly rated Family Lawyers in your area. Go to more than one--this will conflict out those attorneys so your WW can't even talk to them. You need to understand what a divorce will look like for you in your State (every State is a little different)-- total costs, child support, potential spousal support/alimony, living arrangements during divorce and custody rights...and a lot more.

Here you need to actually be and demonstrate separation for a period of 12months (aka not living together etc) before you can even file basically - its a really long process here - my sister is currently in the middle of it, as well as another person I know - so they have been sharing a lot (already prior to this) about the journey as we have been supporting them.

Your WW is negotiating what she provides you... not unusual but it shows she doesn't get it yet. Have her read How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair by Linda McDonald.

Consider telling her that "you broke the marriage, you don't get to decide what I need in trying to make an honest attempt at potential reconciliation".

She can refuse whatever she wants but it will just lower the odds the marriage will make it. The odds aren't great from the baseline of a multi-month affair anyway, right?

By the way, talking about a dna test for the kids, even though you are sure they are yours, sends a mighty strong signal to her that you now doubt almost everything about the marriage. Not something you have to do but it will get her attention even if you just mention it.

How's it going Frontier?