SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There is a list of acronyms on one of the front pages for those who haven't read enough here to know what they are. I suspect you know what they are, but just choose not to use them. You don't have to USE them, but you can't dictate whether or not other people do.

Since it is not an insult as the previous comments, I am willing to reply, so let me explain this. Yes, I have seen there is a list of acronyms but if every time I need to understand what is being said I need to open the list and search for the word, it really does not help communication. Especially if you use your phone it gets really tricky. It just seems to me laziness and disregard of other people's understanding. Communication is made of messages that get sent from a sender to a receiver and for communication to take place there must be a shared code. Using acronyms slows down the communication process, it is not enhancing it at all, it makes it more difficult, it does not add anything useful. It doesn't take for ever to write a few words and you can copy and paste if you need to use those terms a few times. Also think there are many users whose first language is not English, try to be in their shoes, unless you are a xenophobic!!

I understand you were here before me. However if things can be improved and people can change their habits and don't start saying "We have always done it that way" it would show you are not defensive of something that frankly is not nice to look at. Imagine a novel full of acronyms.... you would not like to read it at all.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 7:09 PM, Friday, March 8th]

What is it that you're hoping to get from posting here?

It's interesting to me that you would like everyone to conform to your way of doing things and your way of thinking, and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong or judgmental or angry or just doesn't understand.

SI has its own culture and way of doing things, which includes using acronyms. We're not going to change everything because one newbie doesn't like them. Open a second browser window with the acronyms and learn them. They'll be second nature in no time if you're willing to learn. If you drop the defensive posturing, you might also learn a little about affair recovery from those here who have literally decades of experience.

YMICNW.GTY

I am using my own acronyms. Enjoy deciphering them, but sorry, I'm being lazy tonight! Or maybe it is a defensive mechanism. If I don't call myself the betrayed spouse but just the BS I am like in denial of what I really am. WS, is much better than wayward spouse, it doesn't sound that horrible, it nearly recalls a brand, not the person I love and who hurt me.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 10:48 PM, Friday, March 1st]

Molly65:

Read this entire thread and?

Perhaps it would help us all here if you state what you want from the people here?

The "mantra" of the Wayward Spouse (aka cheater) being still in contact with the admonition that you should DO something to STOP the contact - even if it is only (only!!!) every six months is NOT doing your mental health any positive good.

You don't want to move on to life separately - yet you have chosen to live with something that is causing you hurt.

My take on lots of posts for you to stop accepting husband "FB" contact is that all want to see you accept the reality that his lack of "no contact" is a form of disrespect to you and your marriage. - and make a move towards making that contact cease

You have made clear you choose to say for both your financial reasons and you DO still like sharing life with him.

In the back of my mind - I'm wondering if the tacit acceptance of husband not totally severing all contact (other than professional contact needed in the course of employment responsibilities) is subconsciously affecting you in some way. Contact, even if "only" every six months is still contact!

Hard question: How can you get him to stop? As you said - it is a choice HE has to make.

For all the posters wishing Molly65 some future change for an increase in her happiness - what suggestions can be offered to help her 'train' her husband?

Life is so very much not Black and White - and way to often the choices one faces unavoidably are "bad" and "worse than bad."

For Molly65 - I think she has made her choice to stay with husband - unless something changes to make situation "far worse than bad."

- best I can think of in the way of 'training' husband is several sessions with a counselor who is versed in "family of origin" (FOO) issues and the Catholic version of what marriage vows mean.
BTW, most all religions have about the same "rules" for marriage.

I've read this whole thread and I have a suggestion for you Molly:

Why not switch this to a "vent" thread, or start a new one? That way, everyone will understand that you are not looking for "advice" on how to get your WH (Wayward Husband) to stop contact with his AP (Affair Partner). What you asked in your initial post:

If I become obsessive and prescriptive my husband will feel in a cage and will want to run away. So how do I deal with all that? It's been 4 and a half years from D day.

Is not something that will get any advice except to set a boundary for yourself and let him know what the consequences are if he steps over it. As you said, you can't make him do anything and this is no different. If that is NOT the advice you wish to take, that is of course, your prerogative.

Having established that, there is no point in anyone continuing to explain why living with such disrespect from your WH is a disservice to yourself.

Instead, it is perfectly acceptable to come on here and just vent to get your anger/feelings out and have others understand the pain you are going through. Sometimes you just need to get the thoughts out with, as you say, no judgement. We have ALL made difficult decisions since finding out our worlds have been shattered. And we have ALL made mistakes and taken many, many, many, missteps. And, we all know that what works for one, may not work for another. We have no skin in the game and whether you stay or go, only affects you and your family. We are all strangers on the other side of the keyboard. Do what you believe is best for you. Continue on your healing journey, even if it's only for you and not your relationship.

As for me, I understand your pain. It took entirely too long for my own WS to stop communication with his AP and it hurt me tremendously! She said she was pregnant and he told me that he wanted to keep communication open because of that. It wasn't until after we talked to a lawyer and he told WH that communication was not mandatory unless/until paternity was established, that he cut her off.

Sadly, many of us here have gone through this. Many of us were told that they didn't want to "hurt" their affair partner, but apparently it was A OK to hurt their spouses. I looked at it as going from stabbing me in the back, to stabbing me in the front. I had my first panic attack because of those texts/phone calls! And FINALLY, after seeing the detrimental affect on not only my emotional well being, but my physical well being, and mental well being, did he get his head out of his ass and make me a priority. I wish, WISH, I had set a NO CONTACT boundary from the beginning! But, like you, I was afraid, and I suffered for it.

This isn't me trying to give you "advice", merely sharing my story to let you know that you are not alone.

I don't know if anything I said will resonate, but I do hope you don't continue to carry so much pain. This shit is not for fucking cowards that's for sure! Stay Strong!

fournlau

Molly65 - read her post a time or two

it is a path forward

As for me, I understand your pain. It took entirely too long for my own WS to stop communication with his AP and it hurt me tremendously! She said she was pregnant and he told me that he wanted to keep communication open because of that. It wasn't until after we talked to a lawyer and he told WH that communication was not mandatory unless/until paternity was established, that he cut her off.

This is interesting and thank you for a non judgemental comment. Question: How can you be SURE contact with the ex are really over? Where di you find the trust that no other cunning behaviour is taking place?

How can you be SURE contact with the ex are really over? Where di you find the trust that no other cunning behaviour is taking place?

The truth is,no matter how many BS want to believe there is NC, they will never really know..unless they catch them.

But..there are things a cheater can do to earn back some trust. Are they truly remorseful? Not regretful, but remorseful? Are they completely transparent? Have they willingly given their BS full access to all accounts and the phone, passwords included? Are they in IC? Are they digging deep, to figure out why they cheated? Do they put boundaries in place, to keep them on the straight and narrow? Are they accountable for their time, when away? Do they jump when their bs picks up their phone? Are they proactive in healing the damage they caused their BS, the marriage, and themselves? Do they willingly a swer questions about the affair, without anger, defensiveness, and blame? Do they know it is their fault they cheated, and they don't blame the bs or the AP? Do they take responsibility for their actions? Do they understand true healing takes years? Are they completely honest with their BS? If the ap contacts them, how do they handle it? Do they immediately hang up,and let the bs know? Or do they hide it? Do they put boundaries around opposite sex friendships? Are they working on becoming a safe partner,and a better person?

If the ws is doing all of that..doing the work..it helps a bs begin to develop trust.

One thing that needs to be made clear..very, very few bs ever come to fully trust their ws. Unfortunately that is a consequence of the cheaters actions. A remorseful ws understands that. And accepts it. That doesn't mean a bs is constantly badgering the ws. It simply means full trust is never fully in place. If a bs stays with their ws, they need to accept that. So does the ws. Of course, some do fully trust. But they're rare.

HellFire
One thing that needs to be made clear..very, very few bs ever come to fully trust their ws. Unfortunately that is a consequence of the cheaters actions. A remorseful ws understands that. And accepts it. That doesn't mean a bs is constantly badgering the ws. It simply means full trust is never fully in place. If a bs stays with their ws, they need to accept that. So does the ws. Of course, some do fully trust. But they're rare.

An unfortunate (?) truth spoken by Hellfire.

Thank you Hellfire.

All the behaviours you mentioned he is displaying. i don’t know what iC is, I am on the phone and I would lose the page if I checked the acronyms. Honestly if I didn’t do my digging really deep I would think everything is as it should. He is remorseful for the pain he has caused me. He told me he is sorry he hasn’t been able to be the husband and the father he wanted to be. He is sorry he was selfish and hurt two women.
He is sorry because I didn’t deserve any of it as I never disappointed him.

How can you be SURE contact with the ex are really over? Where di you find the trust that no other cunning behaviour is taking place?

As others have already replied, you can never trust 100% after a betrayal. Not just the person that betrayed us, but anyone! After finding out about infidelity from a person who was supposed to have our backs and we trusted unconditionally, you would be hard pressed to find many BS (Betrayed Spouse) who regains unconditional trust. Sadly, it is a new normal for us all. Also sadly, we learn than ANYONE is capable of ANYTHING! We can only control our reactions to finding out there has still been contact (or any other wayward behaviors). So, it isn't about the absolute trust in our WS (Wayward Spouse), but in our trust in ourselves to know when/if we are done with the M (Marriage). Or the knowledge that if our WS betrays us again, we trust in ourselves to be OK (This is where healing comes in).

Unfortunately, even getting into a new relationship does not save you from betrayal, and you can't really 100% trust anyone unconditionally. We learn to "trust but verify", and after many deposits into the trust bank (doing what they say they will do, being where they say they will be, being honest even when it reflects badly on them, etc), we as BS can get a modicum of trust back enough to begin to feel safer in the M.

It's been about 5 years for us since Dday and I can say that trust has not been completely earned. There are things I trust him to do/not do, but there are things I don't trust him to do/not do. This is on him, not me. He needs to do more work to show me he is trustworthy. But again, it will never be at the level it was before. That is a consequence of his actions, not my lack of trust.

And of course, if he is still in contact with her behind my back, and I find out, well, that is the deathnell to this M. And that will be on him, not me. I can't hold his hand, I can't look over his shoulder for the rest of our lives. So yeah, maybe he can hide it well and I will never find out. I can't know for sure. But, just like you, I choose to stay until I can't stay any longer.

I don't think this is the answer you were hoping for. There is no absolute and no guarantees. It's a roll of the dice whether you R (Reconcile) or D (Divorce).

Has he told you every time she contacts him? Has he shown you the messages?

Ic is therapy. Individual counseling.

Has he told you why he cheated?

IC = individual counseling

He is remorseful for the pain he has caused me. He told me he is sorry he hasn’t been able to be the husband and the father he wanted to be.

If he was remorseful and sorry for being a subpar father and husband, he would have no problem cutting contact completely with the other woman (OW). And even if he's not the husband and father he wanted to be, that shouldn't stop him from trying to be the husband and father that you need him to be.

On SI, we make the distinction between regret and remorse.

A cheater feels regret when they're upset about the negative effects that the affair has caused him. Specifically, when a cheater is regretful, he is upset that the affair reflects badly upon him as a person, and is unhappy with the inconvenience he experiences and the shame that he feels as a result of the betrayed spouse's (BS) lack of trust and expression of pain. He's annoyed that he has lost the benefit of the doubt and can't go about his business without the BS looking over his shoulder.

But if you swept all his shit under the rug and never spoke about it again, he wouldn't lose any sleep over his misdeeds.

Remorse is when a cheater realizes and is fully accountable for the pain that he has caused his BS. There's no defensive, excuses, and self-pity involved in remorse. The cheater is proactive in the healing process and his focus is on helping his BS heal... not simply getting them to shut up.

He is sorry he was selfish and hurt two women.

Excuse me... 2 women? He only made vows of fidelity before God and signed a legal document with 1 woman... you. You didn't sign up to be betrayed when you married him. He certainly didn't ask for or receive your permission to embark on the affair.

OW, on the other hand, fully understood that she was starting a relationship with someone else's husband. If she's in pain, it's because she ordered a shit sandwich but doesn't like how it tastes. Too fucking bad.

There is no equivalency or comparing the pain that he has inflicted on you with the OW.

And as we have said multiple times throughout this thread, no contact is the absolute bare minimum requirement to even consider reconciliation. It doesn't matter how "perfect" his behavior is in other respects; any sort of communication with the OW-- even if it's casual and infrequent-- is an ongoing betrayal.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:34 PM, Saturday, March 2nd]

My therapist said I should accept that certain people will always be part of someone's life if they have been important and if between them there is a friendship that has been created.

True, but you don't have to accept this in your marriage. I agree with prior posters, the infidelity never ended, it just changed form.

He betrayed you. She engaged in that betrayal. She is an enemy to your marital happiness.

If my FWS ever speaks to her FAP again, other than to tell him to go away and never contact her again, should some random encounter occur, our marriage will end immediately, even prior to the divorce paper signing. She know that, it could not be made more clear.

Reading stories like yours makes me wonder if I made it clear enough.

SI has its own culture and way of doing things, which includes using acronyms.

Stop being patronising! This is one of the worst comments just to make people feel unwelcome.

CULTURE changes constantly to adapt to people's needs and new habits because they find a culture, or certain aspects of it, out of date. If it weren't for that, we would still kill our enemies ourselves, but hey ho, culture has evolved and there are judges and courts.

If culture hadn't changed wo women would still wear a headscarf in the Western countries, so please refrain from telling me about an unchangeable culture because that is bullshit.

There are foreigners who write here and it is hard enough to read and write in a different language, let alone the acronyms.

I also trust myself that if their communication became really like an Emotional Affair, I would notice some changes in my husband, unless I have married an Oscar Award actor, so if he doesn't change towards me, it means that their contact is meaningless beyond being rare.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 7:25 PM, Friday, March 8th]

As others have already replied, you can never trust 100% after a betrayal. Not just the person that betrayed us, but anyone! After finding out about infidelity from a person who was supposed to have our backs and we trusted unconditionally, you would be hard pressed to find many BS (Betrayed Spouse) who regains unconditional trust. Sadly, it is a new normal for us all. Also sadly, we learn than ANYONE is capable of ANYTHING! We can only control our reactions to finding out there has still been contact (or any other wayward behaviors). So, it isn't about the absolute trust in our WS (Wayward Spouse), but in our trust in ourselves to know when/if we are done with the M (Marriage). Or the knowledge that if our WS betrays us again, we trust in ourselves to be OK (This is where healing comes in).

Unfortunately, even getting into a new relationship does not save you from betrayal, and you can't really 100% trust anyone unconditionally. We learn to "trust but verify"

We need unfortunately to thank the cheaters for crushing our world!! I agree that even changing partner would not restore my full trust. However if I informed my husband that I am checking his phone for evidence, he would obviously be a lot more cautious, so if it can be of any worth, I suggest that cheated spouses do not tell their spouse they regularly check their accounts, because you are giving away precious information. Unless of course, you prefer to be sure not to find anything...

I think it's perfectly reasonable to make a request that acronyms not be used on your threads. You get to set the boundary for your topic.

You're unlikely to get anyone here to agree with you that WS's continued casual contact with the AP is an acceptable practice in recovery. You're allowed to do your recovery your way, though, of course.

Can you please stop attacking and speaking condescendingly to people who are trying to help you?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 12:50 PM, Saturday, March 9th]

Molly65, you have a pm.

Regarding the acronyms, I understand your confusion. I don't like them either. I'm going to get quite graphic, so understand it is just to help you understand.

As ALL of us learned, things will never be as they were before. You may want things to go back to the way it was before your WS betrayed you with the AP and turned you into a BS, but it is never going to happen. All the MC and IC in the world will not do that.

The best you can hope for is to get out of infidelity, whether you divorce or stay married, and reach some level of peace, happiness, and acceptance, that is constructive, and be able to move forward in your life without allowing this event to turn you into the very type of person that you were hurt by.

Then, you will be a FBS, not a MH, with an AP, hurting someone else in the same manner.

My FWS, she learned to cheat, from her FOO (parents and their multiple affair partners). She learned to use sex as a weapon of revenge in her relationships, as an escape from reality, as an avoidance from painful thoughts. She had relationships in the past before me where she would get angry with her partner or her prior husband, over whatever reason, and the response to that anger was to go to a bar, party, mall, work, or the gym and literally fuck the first available person whenever and wherever she could (married, single, old enough to be her dad, younger, in a bathroom, in a car, at work, their place, her place, she was also raped 4 times engaging in this risky behavior). She felt powerless in all her relationships. She felt like she had no power even in our marriage, where I went overboard to make sure that I prioritized what she wanted. She felt like she was powerless in her life.

She HATED what her parents had done, what had been done to her in the past, what she had done in the past.

Then, a husband who was not like that, who didn't know the past, 4 children (her choice), dogs, cats, house, living where she wanted to live, working at a job that she wanted part time, mostly full time SAHM (her decision as I made a lot of money regardless of where we lived and she had full agency to decide her work hours, etc.), husband home every weekend and every Thursday.

What did she do?

She became the very thing she hated.

She still FELT powerless, angry without knowing why, overwhelmed, in life, in everything, the only way to escape was to fuck some rando she met and blow it all up. She fucked him in our garage, in our bed , all with the kids at home, in his workplace, where we had our first date (more on that below), in a strangers house, in his house, in a park, and in a random place along the road, and in a church parking lot.

Then she woke up! She didn't know what to do. Her husband was hurt, angry, abandoned, and didn't know what the fuck was going on. At home she'd been treating him like shit, lying all the time, about everything, and he didn't know what to do as nothing made sense. He trusted her completely and had never been in a situation like this. She stopped fucking the other guy, but had to lie, lie, and lie some more to cover it all up, for years and years and hope someone didn't talk. She freaked out periodically, and lied about why. She hated herself. Till 9 years later, on the anniversary of her and her husbands first date, which we always celebrated by going back to that place, but which had become problematic, she couldn't handle it anymore. She broke down and confessed, partially. It took 6 months of MC, and IC, before the truth really started to come out.

You will always be a FBS, there is plenty of time to learn the acronyms, because that is the least of what you must learn in order to not become the very thing that you don't like.

Trust me on that. In the agony of all this, I could have transitioned from a FBS to a MH very easily. I'm male, I work in a profession dominated by women. There is a certain "type" that seems attracted to me and it has been problematic in the past to the point I've had to request administration bar some people from working with me, and require open door meetings with third party present to meet with some clients and vendor reps. Some women coworkers and I've had to go so far as to not get on an elevator with them unless someone else was present. To protect my family, way before the betrayal I experienced, I took great caution, I never go to lunch with another woman outside of a group setting. My wife knew this.

Unfortunately, it didn't keep HER from cheating....

Take what you need, learn at your pace, but stay true to yourself. Also, be aware of your anger, it can destroy you, I'm laying next to a sleeping FWS who found that out the hard way and reached the point of sticking my deer rifle muzzle (unloaded) in her mouth and testing her reach to the trigger before she got the help she needed and truly began to heal.

In the midst of my massive confusion, around the marital problems that my best efforts could not resolve, I started to take personal risks that I should not have.

Understand, we know where you are in your mind, we have ALL been there. Keep true to yourself.

[This message edited by standinghere at 4:32 PM, Saturday, March 9th]