SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

To use yet another analogy, would you wait until a downpour to fix a massive hole in your roof? Or would you try to get it fixed while the weather is still nice?

Taking this analogy a step further. If you know your roof has a hole in it, the problem doesn't magically go away in the summer months (when it's not raining) even though you can technically stand in the house and not get wet. You may be satisfied with being dry for the moment, but that's not going to serve you once the rainy season rolls around again and nothing has changed. The fact that other people cannot guarantee that their own roofs wont leak, is not a good reason not to do your own patchwork.

however I am secretly in touch with a person whom I have never met, who helped me so much during my time of big difficulties in the middle of the crisis and my husband does not know anything about him (we are not flirting at all, we are just being helpful to each other) and he would be very shocked to find out I did not share this with him. SO at the end of the day I have my secrets and they are proper secrets

Is it possible that you are justifying or excusing your husband's continued contact with the OW so that you can justify continuing your own emotional affair?

however I am secretly in touch with a person whom I have never met, who helped me so much during my time of big difficulties in the middle of the crisis and my husband does not know anything about him (we are not flirting at all, we are just being helpful to each other) and he would be very shocked to find out I did not share this with him. SO at the end of the day I have my secrets and they are proper secrets

^^^This is called an emotional affair.

This is called an emotional affair.

Please don't be immediately judging and rigid in your thoughts. It would if I desired to meet and thought of this person in a way different from just a person to chat to. It is clear I cannot confide in my husband about this topic, otherwise I would normally talk to him, but since it is ABOUT him... I have also spoken a lot about that with a female friend of mine, am I in an emotional affair with her too? The reason why I am hiding it is because of the topic I am discussing, exactly like I am not saying anything about me using this website. Am I having an emotional affair with you just because we talk? I was not born yesterday and I know what an emotional affair is and I can assure you this is not the case.

The guy from the other website was betrayed too and all he is telling me is what he did to survive his infidelity and since he is a mental coach, he is helping me find strategies. He suggested my therapist. We do not intend to meet. I am in touch for the same reason with a lady met on one website: am I in an emotional affair with her too?

[This message edited by Molly65 at 2:31 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]

Don't you resent him, for continuing contact?

I surely do. I think it is wrong and not the choice I was expecting or that I would make, although I am only speaking out of theory, I have never been in those shoes, so who knows what I would do?. However if everything else is working do I really need to aim for perfection? If he were a very lazy person, would that make me less infuriated? It would be lack of respect as well. When you know that someone can do something and they don't, they play the card of the person who can't be bothered, well it does hurt. In my case, he is not lazy and throws everything on my shoulders anymore (which he did during the affair). He takes responsibility for everything else. Two to three times a year he is in contact with the FB. The thing is very clear, At this moment even if he promised on his mum that he is going to stop every contact would I be trusting him? NOPE. SO If I continue like this, he thinks I am not checking at all and does not find another system unknown to me to keep in touch with her. I can at least check the quality of their conversations and if they become intimate, I can distance myself.

This website is full of people who have made their spouse an obedient dog who "all of a sudden" has stopped all wrong behaviours that might hurt their spouse. You have told your spouse what they should do, how they should keep you informed and what type of contact they are allowed to have with the same person they slept with secretly from you. You TRUST that this person has radically changed in EVERYTHING that regards the AP. If they are colleagues, they may not go on business trips anymore nor to the motel, but how do you know they are not having lunch together in a separate restaurant so they can continue their intimate conversations? You simply can't be sure. You don't know if they are still hiding something because at home they act differently. To be honest with you, they may be really genuine at home, I am not saying they are faking it, when they are with you (or with me) they are at peace, they are in their safe harbour, they feel trusted, they know they were forgiven, they feel our love and that is an extra narcissistic stroke they really enjoy. They were selfish but now are they angels? They were liars and now are they just honest people?

Hey ho, the vast majority of you doesn't do any serious digging in case they find something that might hurt them. You just trust them. Initially I did too. I could still do the same, based on the many behaviours he displays that are radically different from what he used to do. Unfortunately he is still in touch with the FB. And I could bet money the majority of your spouses are too, not in the way they were before, but they probably are just because these people have been important for them, they have helped them during their darkest time to survive, therefore they are grateful they exist, they owe them how they have changed. But you don't know about it, you don't even want to explore the idea, you are in denial.

I am sure the more I insist he stops any contact with her, the more he wants to go ahead his own way. And in fact his contacts are not as frequent as they used to be. Also the Fuc*** Bi***, despite her hopes, is looking around for other options, she knows time is ticking, she is not just waiting for my husband, but when they get in touch they make each other feel special and stroke each other's ego. Whoever cheats is an immature person, like a toddler, has an avoidant way of dealing with things, they feel entitled.

Are you able to accept that this is who they are?

They can improve in many ways but they will never be the person YOU want them to be and probably they have never been either. If you cannot accept their flaws, you will have a big pain coming your way. They are not the person you thought they were. They function differently, they have other values. THEY are their priority and this will always be the case. The affair just lit up an aspect of them WE didn't know existed. If they were willing to put a lot of work into themselves and change many many things, it is a MIRACLE and I believe we should celebrate that. They will never be perfect and so won't we. Some of us impose things on their spouse, well I am sorry I don't believe in chains, they keep people in place but down deep inside these people in chains want those chains broken.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 2:37 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]

Signs of an emotional affair off the top of my head:

communication

sharing

Feeling understood

Comparisons

Secrecy

Can't post links but this:

"An emotional affair involves having non-sexual emotional intimacy with someone who is not the individual's romantic partner. Someone having an emotional affair may hide it from their partner or use deception to keep the relationship secret."

Again, you came here for advice and you get defensive every single time a member here posts something that triggers you. With very long diatribes.

Is it possible that you are justifying or excusing your husband's continued contact with the OW so that you can justify continuing your own emotional affair?

^^^This from emergent8.

What exactly is a proper secret in a relationship? Are there some rules I am not aware of that make it ok? The "Not Just Friends" book I read skipped over that part.

however I am secretly in touch with a person whom I have never met, who helped me so much during my time of big difficulties in the middle of the crisis and my husband does not know anything about him (we are not flirting at all, we are just being helpful to each other) and he would be very shocked to find out I did not share this with him. SO at the end of the day I have my secrets and they are proper secrets

^^^From Tobster

[This message edited by annb at 2:32 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]

It's not perfection..it's the minimum.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a BS here who believes everything their WS says. Trust wasn't earned automatically, based on words. It was earned,over time, through honest,remorseful, consistent actions.

Of course, those actions can be faked. One never really knows.

If you believe this site is full of horrible people, who treat their spouse like dogs, what is it you want from us?

You said this hurts you. You said you wish he would show you the respect you deserve,and cut contact. We are on your side. We are telling you he is being very disrespectful towards you. And you are attacking us. Why? We are not the "fucking bitch " and we are not the ones disrespecting you.

I don't know if you're having an EA. I have a few male friends who I speak to. But, I'm not hiding them from my husband. He is well aware of them, and if he ever asked to read our messages, I would immediately show them to him.

Signs of an emotional affair off the top of my head:

communication

sharing

Feeling understood

Comparisons

Secrecy

Well, then I have an emotional affair with you and all these people here whom I telling intimate things in secrecy and I feel understood.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 2:39 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]

What does your male friend, who is helping you, think about this continued contact?

He is well aware of them, and if he ever asked to read our messages, I would immediately show them to him.

Do you make him read things you discuss about your marriage that involve him, too?

I am really sorry if I came out as aggressive. It was not my intention. I thank everyone who is trying to help me in their own way. Surely one will accept the help that suits them. It does not suit me to tell my husband what to do, to keep him on a short leash telling him how to behave if, I never did it with my children and this interaction is more similar to that of a parent towards their child. In this matter he is behaving like a child, but I will not fall into his game and will treat him like he really were.

If I want my marriage (I HATE ACRONYMS, THEY DRIVE ME CRAZY) to work, we BOTH need to make CHOICES, I can express my needs and see how he responds to them. For now the only one he is selectively deaf to is this. The rest is all sorted. I am not throwing everything in the trash because of ONE aspect. I am really sure he does not fake it, as your spouses don't either, but they are still processing an addiction, let us not forget that. A drug addict lies, an alcoholic lies, a cheater lies still for a long time, of this I am pretty sure. Not all time scales are the same. Obviously a person who does not go into therapy takes longer but will benefit from the changes you do. It will just take longer.

What does your male friend, who is helping you, think about this continued contact?

She is telling me how changed she sees he is and she says she cannot figure out why he keeps in touch, unless it is for the sense of pity and guilt towards her, especially because she split up from he husband during the affair and because now she is a cancer survivor. She said the FB presents herself as a needy person who whines she feels lonely and he has pity of her but no needy person is attractive to anyone. That is exactly what my therapist and my male friend say too.

Wow. I saw the first OP post a couple of days ago but just got caught up on the rest of the thread. Every single book on healing and R after an A, every single one, stipulates that breaking contact with the AP is the first step for R. It's a baseline of safety. You are both infuriated that your WS has continued contact and enabling that contact by tolerating it. FWIW, pretty much none of us stop digging after our WS says that they're NC. It's a part of the aftermath of the trauma to remain hypervigilant regarding ongoing contact. You've somehow conflated the ease of your ability to detect it with the acceptability of it. That's great that your WS has stepped up, but he's still unable to cut contact, which would negate any progress that he's made for most people. I wonder why it doesn't for you. Do you not think that you deserve that basic act of... kindness/authenticity/respect/responsibility/love? You're absolutely right, if you don't want to upend your life by initiating a divorce off the back of ongoing contact, you will need some coping strategies to maintain equilibrium but the real question is why would you want to live like this? Without anything changing, you'll both continue to have a deceitful, dishonest relationship where you never talk about the elephant in the room. Sure you can live like that, but why would you want to?

Do you make him read things you discuss about your marriage that involve him, too?

I've never made him do anything. But,yes, I would show him the entirety of the messages. Because there is nothing I'm saying to anyone,including those here, that I haven't said to him.

I think the disconnect is..no BS here has made their ws do anything. Setting boundaries isn't about forcing someone to do what we want. It's about saying what WE will tolerate,and what we won't. The ws can choose for themselves what they want to do with that.

You're also making a lot of assumptions about the marriages of the BS here.

Pretty sure most bs dug very deeply after dday. I know I did. Most bs will also continue to check phones, social media etc, for years after dday. After awhile, the reasons for checking change, and it becomes more about reassuring ourselves, than seeing if they're up to no good.

You're assuming our ws are still in contact. Some of them probably are. I don't disagree. I know mine isn't, because I have an insane bunny boiler OW. If he were to contact her, she would let me know. However, her contacting our oldest daughter, and sharing intimate details with her pretty much made him hate her. Her continued stalking of ME(not him), over a decade of this, has made it very clear she's unhinged.

Can I ask what you're hoping to get out of SI? Are you looking for advice? Because so far, you've rejected it all and told us all we are basically bad people. Or, are you looking for a place to vent? I want to help you feel more safe in your relationship. I think you are very sad that your husband won't go NC, and you're trying to find a way to be ok with that. How can I help?

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:24 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]

It sounds like your friends and your therapist are all telling you what you want to hear, which is that you have nothing to worry about. And you say that you are comfortable staying in the relationship and tolerating contact with the OW as long as your husband is affectionate toward you and your lifestyle and stability are secure.

So what do you need from us control freaks and idiots whose husbands are probably still cheating on us?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:50 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]

He will resent you,for asking him to no longer speak to someone who caused you great harm? Why?

This is really what I’ve found most baffling about this thread and the OP’s acceptance of her WH’s continued contact with the AP. If the AP had walked into the family home and attacked the OP by means of physical violence and her WH remained in contact with that attacker, would things be different? I mean, how could the man (WH) who purports to love the OP (in this case Molly) remain friends with the woman who attacked his wife.

Molly, I honestly encourage you to read "Not Just Friends" and evaluate why you are accepting your WH’s continued contact with this AP. Stop attacking the community here with baseless ad hominem and ridiculous attacks about obedient dogs and focus on the real issue, which is that you came here because your WH’s is a cake eater and rather than consider the feedback you’ve received, you are deflecting and lashing out at the people who are volunteering their time to help you through what most of us, if not all of us, would describe as the worst era of our lives. This group has walked a similar path to the one you are one and those who have been able to successfully and sustainably reconcile have shared their hard earned wisdom with you and you attack them.

Like I said in a previous post, you are a grown up and free to make whatever choices about your marriage that you like. However, I’m willing to bet that on your wedding day, when you both committed to forsake all others that you weren’t implying that it was okay if your WH has a side piece that he keeps on the back burner for months/years of your marriage. As we say around here, you have to let go of the outcome to truly save your marriage and being honest with you and your posts in this thread, you have not ever done that. Your posts and your current strategy is all designed with one outcome in mind, to stay married to the WH, which allows whatever benefits you receive from the WH to keep on rolling, be that a lifestyle, his affection, his handyman skills, his income, etc. No one here faults you for taking those things under consideration, but I honestly think that you’ve become a bit blindsided to the fact that in order to keep those things coming, at least in its present configuration, you have to also accept that your WH will continue to cheat and disrespect you and your marriage, because he suffered nearly no consequences. Think about this for a minute, if one of your close friends was describing to you the affair your WH had and the current dynamics of your relationship post affair, what would you say to that friend? Would you be accepting of their WH’s continued contact with his AP if it meant that your friend got to keep living in the nice house, taking the nice vacations? At some point, no amount of material things is worth being married to an unreformed cheater, which is what your WH is at the moment. The reality is that a successful Reconciliation is lead by and driven by the WH and what you’ve described over these past few pages is you doing all the work for R and you cannot R with a person who won’t do the work.

I will turn this to myself for a second as an example, I had an EA from 2017-2019, and the last contact that I had with my AP was in December 2019, when I ghosted her by blocking her and killing my social media accounts. In February 2020, my wife and I unblocked her to send her a very clear and concise No Contact message, we did it together and then immediately blocked and deleted here. My AP created a fake Facebook profile to try and talk to my wife but it went to spam, only my wife found it months later and laughed. My AP even got desperate and in June 2020 one morning I woke up and there was a text message from a different number (no idea if she spoofed a number or what happened) and the first thing I did was roll over to my wife and handed her my phone. She read the message, blocked and deleted the message and number. We had been a few months into an R and we were a united front. We even discussed that we can’t keep having contact and so this will be the last time we accept it before we take more extreme measures either with legal action or changing my phone number. It’s now end February 2024 and I’ve not had any contact with this AP for over 4 years and what you may call an obedient dog, is actually putting my marriage and wife above all, even now, when I get those strange phishing text messages, I proactively will share them with my wife and her with me. There is no more "I"in our relationship when it comes to this shit, it is absolutely about us. I can tell a similar story about my wife’s AP, it’s been 4 years since he tried to attempt contact. Do I know her every move? No, I do not, but I also wholly reject any notion that I or other people here didn’t do a deep dive on our partner’s digital life, etc. You gravely underestimate this community what and what some of us are capable of. Speaking for myself, I have a fully automated smart home that runs using Home Assistant, self-hosting all of my own NVR cameras locally and not on the cloud, all of my devices are on a fully segregated IoT network, and all our phones don’t back up to the iCloud but rather the Bor family cloud at home, so not only do I have the tools and hardware to do a deep dive into my wife’s devices, I have images of her phone going back about 8 years now, so I have a fairly high level of certainty that the full extent of her affair and any subsequent contact that has happened. That level of skill and sophistication is not necessary to "dig deep" but it certainly didn’t hurt matters.

Speaking for myself, I have a fully automated smart home that runs using Home Assistant, self-hosting all of my own NVR cameras locally and not on the cloud, all of my devices are on a fully segregated IoT network,

You see, there is no trust in your marriage either. You stay there because you have the reassurance that your wife is not bluffing. It could be true or it could be false. However do you know if in her office she has a phone you don't even know the existence of? You obviously don't! You both have had an affair and you are both very technology savvy. My husband is a software engineer and he knows how little I know about technology. Well, he and his ex mistress were VERY SURPRISED I found out about their secret chat and they still don't know I had hacked into my husband's account on an app on his phone I had been studying for a while downloading it myself and figuring out how it worked. I intercepted at the time some very dull messages of his FB who complained she was at home alone and felt lonely (poor darling!!) and had to take the cat (my husband hates cats!!) to the vet, so he wouldn't have given a monkey about her cat, but anyway "he" ignored the message totally. I read the messages and she got no answer. Puff, the message disappeared after reading. Never delivered, never read, but especially never replied to it.

I am not saying at all you are bad people, I just said that you don't have any certainty because these cheaters become more and more cunning if they want. I did establish my boundaries and he failed to respect them. I never said to him, "You are right, you should continue to write to that poor darling woman, That is the dream relationship I always wanted with a man who hides me things", no, I told him I felt disrespected and it was wrong and I was angry about it, I felt hurt, so all he did was "I will try not to contact her" but then he continued, more rarely but he is still in touch. It's been six months of silence, probably the longest one they have ever had. If now I insisted, how would I know for sure he'll stop? He is able to tell me what I want to hear, but then? Setting boundaries is what WE DO, it doesn't tell me what THEY DO. I did set a boundary and told him that his choice is making me hurt, that it destroys all the progress I strongly believe we have made and delays his bereavement. He told me he is over it, he considers her just an acquaintance and that I know is a lie, a person you slept with does not become an acquaintance but I am unable to go any further, so I'd better not ridicule myself even more. I'd better pretend I don't check and don't care.

I wished I had a magic wand and could make all my wishes come true. I wished he was the honest man I knew and who never chose what he did. I know very well I can speak to him again, my "terrible" therapist said I should just be authentic and tell him what things are hurting me and then I have my options open: If he doesn't change and stops all contacts, I can accept that, if I really don't want to divorce, or I can walk away, my choice.

But if I decide to stay there is nothing that will force him into something he hasn't matured, so this is what I need to know. I either accept that or I can file for divorce. That is entirely my choice. She didn't say it is RIGHT for him to do so, she just gave me an explanation as to why he struggles to let go of the FB.

Knowing I don't want to divorce him my "terrible" therapist recommended to look at all the positive things that have changed as a strategy to remain where I am not 100% happy. However she also said "Remember there is no relationship where you are 100% happy because nobody is perfect. Here at least you know his flaws".

I saw so many women around me who divorced and thought they were becoming free from harm and found themselves going from man to man, always unhappy of the next partners, feeling lonely and in economic difficulty. A lady here in the USA divorced twice, has lost her big home, lives in a flat and now is going to move to her boyfriend's she doesn't like at all because she has no money to pay her rent. No, I will not follow their footsteps.

A part from the fact he hasn't stopped all contacts wit the FB, with my husband I have it all, affection, sex and fun included.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 4:52 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]

ETA: Please Note that this was written before I saw Molly's post just above. I haven't rewritten it to take the 10:40 post into account.

*****

Molly, I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. I think you start by telling us - and yourself - that every one of us in R is lying to themselves and to SI about their R. Is that a correct reading of what you believe?

*****

Hey ho, the vast majority of you doesn't do any serious digging in case they find something that might hurt them.

This website is full of people who have made their spouse an obedient dog who "all of a sudden" has stopped all wrong behaviours that might hurt their spouse.

I think you misunderstand R, which is common for new members. Most of us learn that R has to be voluntary. Most of us learn that we have to dig deeper than we ever thought possible. And most of us learn to be at least somewhat comfortable with uncertainty and with knowing we might be misreading our partners.

R is hard work, and both partners need to want R enough to keep themselves motivated to do the work. As I say, it MUST be voluntary.

*****

One way to describe 'the work' is to say it's a process of resolving relationship issues. That means both partners need to communicate about relationship issues and address them directly.

Your WS, because of his individual issues (probably some need for validation), is in an A with the woman you refer to as 'FB', and he won't cut contact with her. You say he'll resent you if you push him for NC.

You, because of your individual issues, are possibly in an EA. You resent your WS. You are not willing to address your issue(s?) with him.

Neither of you demonstrates much desire to do the work necessary to R, but you're not willing to split.

If that's your choice, so be it. Just realize that you're putting yourself at risk of a lot of pain - more pain than you'll experience than if you and your H committed to D or R.

*****

Your defense of your choice sounds like something an abused W would say. Are you being abused?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:53 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]

It sounds like you have a solid handle on your situation, you have people in real life whose opinions you highly value and trust, and you don't think there's much value in our advice or applicability to your situation.

In that case, I wish you the best of luck.

You've told him how it makes you feel. And you know he is still,occasionally in contact with her,behind your back(he thinks).

How do you interpret that? Doesn't that tell you he isn't committed to the marriage?

You keep saying you're ok with it..but then you say things that indicate you really aren't.

He clearly isn't a safe partner. You don't want to divorce,because you would lose your comfortable lifestyle. That is a very valid choice. One,I'd say,many BS decide on.

However, because he's done no work on himself, and will not commit to the most basic necessity for true R(no contact), he's showing you he doesn't value you,or the marriage. Everything in him that allowed him to decide to cheat,is still very much inside him. He may cheat with another woman. Or he may decide to divorce. Please develop a plan B. Set money aside. Just in case.

Please, everybody stop speaking in acronyms, it makes communication so much harder. It doesn't require a big effort to write complete words, come on!!

No, I am in no abuse at all.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 4:55 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]

Or he may decide to divorce. Please develop a plan B. Set money aside. Just in case.

Thank you for being so considerate, this is an excellent piece of advice.

Honestly when the affair came out it would have been so easy for him to ask for divorce, we are in a good economic situation, our children are adults and live by themselves. We both have a property and we both have money aside and we both work. The only concern is I don't have more than a few hundred bucks of pension for my future. At present I could live without his money. But not as I age. I don't think this was the only reason why he decided not to divorce me. Surely the FB was a good mistress, a person of transgression who boosted his ego but he is well aware she wouldn't be a good partner. She is an attention seeker, a person in need and despite showing lots of energy also during her cancer journey, she plays the needy role and that is not what my husband likes but it still triggers his sense of guilt.

Unfortunately there is not much I can do for my pension, I worked many years part time and I am too old to be able to fix the problem. Plus I really really enjoy his company and he enjoys mine. I am also aware as Esther Perel says that it is really difficult that a person is able to fulfill all your needs for all their life and it is likely you look for some needs to be addressed somewhere else. Unfortunately he is unable to tell me what needs the Fu***** B**** was fulfilling, he surely wanted some transgression, some validation (which he received by her in tons!) to feel still attractive and to feel alive. However in the aftermath I have become the adrenaline partner of many activities we do, I have shown him again how full of life I am, our sex life has increased in number and quality, we talk a lot more so really what is still missing in our relationship from his point of view it is hard for me to know. But I believe his childhood wounds don't let him find out. He is too scared to dig deep. The first thing he would do if he did his therapy would be to completely let go of his toxic parents and he should cut them off completely from his and our lives but he is unable to detach himself from there too.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 5:19 PM, Tuesday, February 27th]