SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

OMG, why? You know my husband said to me "I wished you could try what it means to have an affair, only then you would fully understand how absorbed into it you become and how hard it is to let go" but I clearly said to him that is not a choice I want to make. If I felt I needed an affair I would ask my husband to split up. I can't imagine having a double life.

Your husband said that because he felt it would exonerate him. Had you really done it I think you would have found you suffered for going against your integrity. You were right not to want it, nothing good happens in an affair.

As for my husband, I think he was just terribly hurt and didn’t cope with it well. He worked from home and was pretty isolated, but a lady who worked for us was there a lot during this time. I think it started because he felt he had no one to talk to and he started confiding in her and it snowballed from there.

May I ask you what is keeping you together if during what seemed to be reconciliation he cheated on you? He wasn't very reconciled if he felt he wanted revenge.

I don’t think he wanted revenge. It was more complicated than that, it came from a more vulnerable place rather than a revenge thing. Maybe there is a tinge if that there but he isn’t really an angry punishing kind of person. It was four years ago. He did the work. I understood him, he understood me, we spent a lot of effort rebuilding and recreating what we truly wanted. We have been together 25 years, he is my best friend and we love each other better than we ever have. We simply worked though it over time. I don’t have any inkling that either of us would do anything like that again, we had a good history together and I know him to be an honest man.

I know it seems complicated, but I think it was all interrelated in a way that makes sense to me. It would take writing volumes about it and I tend to come here moreso to discuss my own cheating. I can only control me, he isn’t here to answer for himself, and I feel some very hurt people may benefit more from my perspective as someone who recovered from my own messy affair. In other words, this site did so much for me that I at times feel compelled to pay it forward. I take long breaks from being here and then come back and reinforce my new levels of learning.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:06 PM, Thursday, February 22nd]

Molly, my comment was not meant to imply that divorce is easy. Most people aren't able or willing to just pack up and leave their spouse.

But if your WH feels that there is no or little possibility that you will leave him and that he holds all the cards, he's going to continue doing whatever he wants to do and isn't going to take your feelings or demands seriously.

You're intensely focused on whether the AP will continue to contact your WH precisely because your husband refuses to cut her off completely. If he can't do this one very basic thing that is the bare minimum requirement for reconciliation, then you have no reason to feel secure in your marriage.

And again, I'll say this... OW did not leave her husband on a whim. Your husband expressed love for her and almost certainly promised that they would run off into the sunset together at some point. He might've been lying out his ass and OW might be stupid to believe him, but she isn't holding out hope for no reason at all.

If your husband is still trying to be "friends" with her, its because he wants to keep the relationship going, he loves that she pines after him, and/or he gets a thrill over the fact that 2 women are fighting over him.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:20 PM, Thursday, February 22nd]

I feel some very hurt people may benefit more from my perspective as someone who recovered from my own messy affair. In other words, this site did so much for me that I at times feel compelled to pay it forward.

I understand exactly what you mean. I met a few very nice people on these types of websites, they really help you feel less isolated and I found a good friend who recommended my therapist who, despite what she said about the contacts between my husband and his ex AP, has been extremely helpful to me and has an experience of decades of helping couples rebuild their relationship. Unfortunately she was not our therapist and she never met my husband so she only saw him through my eyes. I cannot thank her enough for helping me get my husband back, not as a perfect person, but one who can be loved for the way he is. I worked on many aspects of me and I am glad of the journey I made.

Your husband said that because he felt it would exonerate him.

He knows I will never be that dishonest and despite me not being perfect he finds it hard at times to accept how "less imperfect" I am compared to him. Our wounds are very different. He was badly, badly abused physically and psychologically by his dysfunctional parents whilst I had a loving family with many values and lots of affection so I certainly grew my values inside me and there was no coercion. He didn't have the possibility to grow his values deeply inside because everything he experienced was imposed on him and he was constantly emotionally blackmailed and parents would withdraw their love every time they thought he was not doing the right thing.

I honestly believe he accepted several assignments abroad to escape his parents and I am glad we kept the distance from them all these years, but when we go to the place where we grew up we are unable to put clear boundaries and they are so invasive and entitled it really angers me my husband is unable to tell them to f. off. He would benefit so badly from a good and thorough therapy but his mentality is he needs to sort himself out by himself, hence it takes a LOT longer.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 5:17 PM, Thursday, February 22nd]

But if your WH feels that there is no or little possibility that you will leave him and that he holds all the cards, he's going to continue doing whatever he wants to do and isn't going to take your feelings or demands seriously.

I agree and I am aware of this. At the same time we have changed so many things in our relationship for the better and I stood my ground for many other important things and now I don't feel I can risk to lead him to file for divorce. I honestly feel well and safe with him for most of the time and the idea that I could end up bankrupt in my old age is not something I am prepared to face, especially as a consequence of another person's choices and actions. If I had been selfish I would deserve to end my years in poverty but I tried my best to support and guide our children and I took time off according to the circumstances to look after our children and allow him to pursue his career he owes ME.

And again, I'll say this... OW did not leave her husband on a whim. Your husband expressed love for her and almost certainly promised that they would run off into the sunset together at some point. He might've been lying out his ass and OW might be stupid to believe him, but she isn't holding out hope for no reason at all.

If your husband is still trying to be "friends" with her, its because he wants to keep the relationship going, he loves that she pines after him, and/or he gets a thrill over the fact that 2 women are fighting over him.

Again I completely agree. I don't believe he ever said to her SERIOUSLY that they would have a life together (he knows how different they are and in many ways incompatible) but he did it as part of a "game" to keep the emotions high, the adrenaline going and he probably thought she was doing it for the same reasons. I am in no way sorry she ended up alone and feeling lost.

He clearly told me and it makes sense, that when she split up from her husband, initially he was happy for her and for them, but when she saw things did not change, she became demanding, so he felt really annoyed by it, it was just as if she was changing the terms and conditions they had agreed on, he felt in a trap and slowed down that relationship. Then, due to different and incompatible work assignments, their opportunities to go on business trips vanished and the less they met, the more she was being pushy and tried her best to persuade him to leave me. At that point he started to appreciate me again, he asked me to do more things together, we started to laugh together, to enjoy each other's company more and we started to create our complicity, so he didn't want to continue the wayward relationship in those terms but was unable to cut it off completely. So in the last year of their affair they met very seldom and she insisted he would leave me. He thought about it, the timing would have been perfect and that explains why she thought she had "won" because our children had flown the nest and we don't have a mortgage, we both work but he just did not want it and it di not happen.

Yes, I believe his ego is satisfied by two women who are fighting over him and he knows none of us intends to give up. I wished I had a different financial situation and I could be more assertive, but I really can't. I do have a job but I will have no future income when I am unable to work.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 5:45 PM, Thursday, February 22nd]

Hi Molly, I've been meaning to comment on your post for a few days now. Forgive me if the conversation has evolved a bit. I apologize if this comes across at all harsh - I promise I'm saying it with love and your best interest at heart.

First, therapists aren't judges. You are not required to abide by their 'rulings'. I agree with others who say that your therapist's take here is a bad one. There were several times in therapy I unapologetically pushed back at attempts by the therapist to push me out of my comfort zone in the interest of making the marriage 'smoother' for my husband (to be clear, no one suggested I get comfortable with my husband writing love notes to the AP). I get it, a MC's loyalty is to the marriage, not to me personally. That said, it's perfectly okay to say things like, "I hear you, but I'm never going to be okay with that EVER and I have zero interest in making myself okay with that. That's a deal breaker for me/red line in the sand, so we're going to have to come up with a different solution/compromise if this marriage is going to work."

Full disclosure, I'm someone who was able to R with a spouse who continues to have the same employer as the OW even years later. I don't say any of that to encourage anyone to use me as an example (please do not!). There is a VERY good reason why the standard recommendation here is to go 100% ZERO contact with the AP and I believe that that is excellent standard-form advice in most cases - particularly where the A was at all emotional. Hikingout knows what she's talking about when she compares the A partner to a drug and the WS to an addict - we all agree that an alcoholic who works at a bar would not be setting themselves up for success in their sobriety.

Again, although I would not recommend my path to ANYONE, the ONLY reason my husband's situation has worked at all is: 1) their work does not overlap at all; 2) they have no reason to see or interact with one another at all 99/100 days of the year (there are sometimes company wide social events (several hundreds of employees) that they might both be invited to however when this occurs, my husband notifies me in advance and we discuss logistics of whether he will attend or not); and most importantly 3) my husband has been absolutely scrupulous about notifying me immediately of any whiff of contact at all since D-day. When I say that, I mean it. If he passes her in the lobby he texts me immediately (to this day). If he is copied on an email chain she is on (outside of corporate wide all users emails), he immediately forwards it to me so I am aware. When OW attempted to push the boundaries of no contact by approaching a colleague that my husband was talking to one day in the lunch room, he walked away, called me immediately and he and I notified OBS together and re-iterated our request that no contact be interpreted expansively. When he needed to arrange to pickup a stack of client holiday cards from OW's assistant last December, he let me know about it first (even though this would not involve any contact with OW). Being looped in on any contact at all, however minor and however inconvenient (for either of us), was a condition of R and his staying at the job and he has taken that extremely seriously over even the most minor stuff. His willingness to tell me about stuff I could never have learned about on my own, is a way he has demonstrated to me that he is serious about his commitments, and is a person worthy of my efforts in R. Did any of that stop me from monitor his emails and phone etc etc etc post-D-day. Of course not. I was right not to trust him then. I'll tell you what though, I never found a single instance where he did anything even slightly shady after D-day though.

I don't need to tell you that ongoing secret emails is a big fucking deal and a massive red flag. Despite your different locations, you have no idea whether or not she hasn't travelled to your jurisdiction for a holiday. Even if she lived on Mars and there was truly no physical way that the A was ongoing, he is still actively wayward if his first reaction to receiving an email from her is not to block her and call you up IMMIEDATELY. I have no idea if they are still in a full-blown emotional affair or not (my guess is that he is likely smart enough to delete at least some of their communications), but even if you have read every single communication between them since D-day (which i highly doubt), she is clearly still pining after him and he is still stringing her along and happy to receive her ego kibbles. He's also actively lying to you. That is not R - not even close. You have asked for something to put your mind at peace, but I have nothing to say to you and to be frank, I don't think your mind should be at peace. You are right to not trust him.

I tried my best to support and guide our children and I took time off according to the circumstances to look after our children and allow him to pursue his career he owes ME.

I wished I had a different financial situation and I could be more assertive, but I really can't. I do have a job but I will have no future income when I am unable to work.

I get it. Fear of the unknown is scary and financial concerns are legitimate, but fear shouldn't keep you from accepting anything less than exactly what you deserve from your spouse here. You have not been unreasonable. I understand that you are hoping to R right now, but I often think, especially for people who are afraid of the consequences of divorce, it's worth it to at least consult with a divorce attorney so you know what you could (roughly) expect if that doesn't work out. It may be that your financial situation is not as dire as you think it may be. Your profile mentions that you live in PA currently though you previously lived in Europe. I am by no means a PA divorce lawyer, but a quick google search tells me that the residency requirement for a PA divorce is only 6 months so presumably you could file there if you wanted to. Google also tells me that PA is a state where alimony (aka spousal support) may be awarded in certain situations, where a lower income spouse cannot support themselves. Obviously I don't know anything about your specific circumstances, but spousal support awards were created for situations like yours where one spouse has sacrificed their own career/earning prospects (ie. via child rearing/homemaking and you know... moving to a new country for your spouse's job) in support of the betterment of their spouse's career.

Again, you don't need to actually have any intention of following through with any of this information, but my experience is that knowledge of what to expect can stop the fear of the unknown from being so scary. Knowledge is power. In my view, the cost of a single consult is money well spent if it is able to allow you to approach this from a position of power versus of a position of fear. And BSs who approach their WS from a position of power tend to get better results than those who are willing to accept whatever scraps their WS is willing to offer, because they are afraid of the alternative.

You need to set a requirement for you to continue R.

He absolutely needs to tell her,through email or on the phone,with you present,that she is to have NC other than what is absolutely work related.

Ow..do not ever contact me again. You represent a shameful part of my past. I am completely devoted to my wife and I am dedicated to healing the damage I have caused my marriage. You were the biggest regret of my life. Any further attempts to contact me will result in legal action.

If he isn't willing to be firm,even mean, to make her stay away, he isn't as dedicated to the marriage as you believe.

He is allowing her to hurt you. Every time she makes contact, it causes you pain.

You need to make it a requirement.

Also..he should block her on social media.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:47 PM, Thursday, February 22nd]

Hellfire and Emergent 8

I want to thank you for the time you have dedicated to me with your responses.

I don't know how long it's been for you since D day but what Emergent 8 describes is a situation that is tolerable for a few months but at one point you either trust your spouse or it is a relationship solely based on control and fear. Frankly we did agree on that with my husband (I had read about it in American websites) since D day happened and then Covid hit so we were at home. When he went back to work he did mention he saw her on the stairwell a few times but honestly it seems to me a ridiculous thing in the long term and instead of removing attention from the wayward relationship it seems it is lead by the affair and draws more attention to it all the time. If I were your husband I would feel like in a prison and being treated like a child does not make it an adult and balanced relationship based on trust. So I don't know how long you have been on this agreement but at one point it will have to stop and I doubt you will be happy with that because you seem really a controlling person. I am not saying it in ager but that solution does not match my character and my view of a healthy relationship.

As you know well cheating is a horrible monster that trains well people to lie and not to feel empathy for the spouse and even if your husband is so precise and tells you details, you will NEVER know if everything he tells you is true or if there are other details he is hiding because he knows they would cause a big deal so telling you some things is just his way to KEEP YOU IN CONTROL.

I clearly said but maybe it is lost in all the responses that I know daily where the Fu****g B***h is because her social pages are full of all her DAILY whereabouts with map included and time and activities she is doing, I saw when she was going for chemo, when she lost her hair, when it grew back and so on and given the distance it is really IMPOSSIBLE for them at the moment to be in the same place. They may talk, but they may not meet.

A relationship is built on trust and at the moment I can see mine isn't but I can clearly see yours isn't either if so many details are needed for you to find peace. I hope for you your husband is not making them up. But I hope you will come to terms with the idea this is a new slavery you need to get rid of.

I had two therapists, one for the couple, a young lad who in my opinion did not grasp certain dynamics and did not figure out my husband's character and my own therapist who clearly said to me I have a few options:

You don't trust him, therefore file for divorce

You ask him to stop every contact (which I did!) and impose your will but expect him to grow resentment and to start hiding things from you and you will soon be in the same situation that led to the affair.

Accept he is what he is and that despite showing you in every other aspect of your life his love, he just wants to keep her as a friend and especially with her cancer he wants to know how she is doing which is normal since she is not a stranger to him. He has clearly chosen you and your relationship has changed. There are things that can change and others that no matter what will take a lot longer and may not change at all. Accept it or flee.

After many comments and the consideration that so many apps exist and so many websites like this exist to communicate and the spouse will never know about them, I am more and more convinced that all the people who claim their spouse is not in touch with the ex AP have NO GUARANTEE about that at all. I mean, how many of your spouses know you use this website? Aren't we all hiding something from our significant other? Aren't we doing it because we want to feel better? What do you think motivates them to look for contact with the ex AP?

A relationship per se has the risk that the other person will hide something for you, will do things you don't like. The ONLY WAY TO BE 100% SURE NOT TO BE BETRAYED IN ANY WAY OR FORM IS NOT TO HAVE ANY RELATIONSHIP. This is something I have only realised with the betrayal, I never thought it could happen just because I am in a relationship. The truth is I can only control what I do and that sometimes even that can be a struggle, imagine if I can control what another human being does and thinks. If you want to be in a relationship you need to trust (not 100%, but still trust) and accept things that you don't like. The alternative is to be alone so nobody will ever hurt your feelings. There are advantages and disadvantages in both situations.

My therapist said "The more you control your husband, the more you push him away and the more he is tempted to contact her. Do not give her any importance and she will not have importance even for him. If you have decided to stay, just give him freedom. If anything happens with that woman or any other (we are 8 billion people on earth), you will sense it and you will make the decision you feel is the best. For now enjoy every little attention he gives you, which is A LOT OF ATTENTION btw and over a very long time.

HELLFIRE I know exactly what he should do but he is not my child, he is my husband and if I have to tell him what to do our relationship would be even less balanced. I don't know if you know of the Transactional Analysis of Erich Berne, but for a relationship to work it needs to be based on adult-adult transactions. What you are suggesting is an adult-child transaction and it simply does not work. If you think your husband has to obey like a dog and not CHOOSE, your relationship is anyway compromised, a lot more than mine.

Love is freedom, also he freedom to make mistakes and if you can't bear that, the only way is to leave but these imposed solutions will never make a relationship work, they will feed more deceit and resentment in your relationship, of this I am sure.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 2:16 PM, Friday, February 23rd]

"The more you control your husband, the more you push him away and the more he is tempted to contact her. Do not give her any importance and she will not have importance even for him. If you have decided to stay, just give him freedom. If anything happens with that woman or any other (we are 8 billion people on earth), you will sense it and you will make the decision you feel is the best. For now enjoy every little attention he gives you, which is A LOT OF ATTENTION btw and over a very long time.

^^^I've been on this site for 15-ish years. Gently, I've read some crazy nonsense coming from so-called experts (therapists) but this is the biggest crock of BSh*t I've seen. ^^^^This therapist is absolutely clueless. Just because your husband is giving you the lion's share of his attention, you have to accept he stays in touch with his affair partner. Please correct me if I'm off base here.

You are not controlling your husband. You are setting healthy boundaries protecting your marriage that honestly he should understand he has should be doing himself.

I don't need to tell you that ongoing secret emails is a big fucking deal and a massive red flag. Despite your different locations, you have no idea whether or not she hasn't travelled to your jurisdiction for a holiday. Even if she lived on Mars and there was truly no physical way that the A was ongoing, he is still actively wayward if his first reaction to receiving an email from her is not to block her and call you up IMMIEDATELY. I have no idea if they are still in a full-blown emotional affair or not (my guess is that he is likely smart enough to delete at least some of their communications), but even if you have read every single communication between them since D-day (which i highly doubt), she is clearly still pining after him and he is still stringing her along and happy to receive her ego kibbles. He's also actively lying to you. That is not R - not even close. You have asked for something to put your mind at peace, but I have nothing to say to you and to be frank, I don't think your mind should be at peace. You are right to not trust him.

^^^emergent hit the nail on the head. Your husband is still actively in an affair since he's keeping the door to communication open.

Every BS should have requirements for R.

It is not controlling to make NC a requirement.

You seem to be willing to tolerate the continued contact. Most BS would say you're playing with fire. But you have experts, who probably haven't been cheated on, advising you. I wish you the absolute very best.

Oh..and my husband is well aware that I'm on this site. I don't hide things from him. I'm just silly enough to expect the same from him.

the same time we have changed so many things in our relationship for the better and I stood my ground for many other important things and now I don't feel I can risk to lead him to file for divorce.

Imagine a friend telling you this:

"My husband drove drunk, smashed our car into a tree, and severely injured me.

He said he was sorry for the pain that he caused me and the limp I have to walk with for the rest of my life. He also bought me a new car, which is way nicer than the old car. The exterior is beautiful, the inside is really comfortable, it's got great gas mileage, and the engine runs like a charm.

The only problem is that my husband will sometimes do a shot of vodka or drink a beer before he has to go somewhere. I tell him it scares me but he swears he's not driving drunk. He also says that if I force him to avoid alcohol completely before driving, I'm being controlling and he might just take off one day on his own and not come back."

What would your advice to your friend might be? Would you tell her not to the rock the boat because she and her husband are getting along well and she really loves her new car? Or would you tell her that his behavior is unacceptable and that she's putting herself in danger by tolerating it?

I honestly feel well and safe with him for most of the time and the idea that I could end up bankrupt in my old age is not something I am prepared to face, especially as a consequence of another person's choices and actions. If I had been selfish I would deserve to end my years in poverty but I tried my best to support and guide our children and I took time off according to the circumstances to look after our children and allow him to pursue his career he owes ME.

What if your husband died? What if he just disappeared? What if your husband decided to leave you one day?

You might think that these are totally unfathomable, but they happen all the time... just as you probably couldn't imagine your husband ever having an affair. That's why you need to plan and prepare for a life without him, whether you ultimately reconcile or not.

Also, I don't know what the laws are in your country or jurisdiction, but in the vast majority of countries in the Western world, nonworking or lesser earning spouses, particularly if they are the primary caregivers for children, cannot be left destitute in a divorce. You will be entitled to a share of money and assets. You will be entitled to child support. You may be entitled to a share of his pension and/or 401K. You may very well be entitled to alimony, at least for a fixed amount of time.

So before you catastrophize the idea of life without him, have a consultation with a lawyer. Find out what you would be entitled to under the law, and based on that, start developing a plan for what you would need to do to land on your feet if or when you get divorced.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:07 PM, Friday, February 23rd]

Excellent analogy about drinking and driving. Very true.

And hellfire and the others are right it’s not controlling to set boundaries.

Boundaries are not controlling. They say, you are welcome to choose the behavior but that may affect what I choose my decisions or behavior to be.

Is it controlling to expect certain things from a spouse as basic as not cheating on you? Because talking to her is cheating on you. It’s allowing him to continue to get the benefits of another woman who he has already betrayed you with. They share an intimacy outside of your marriage.

If this is controlling then I am certain that your husband should not be married.

Is it controlling to expect certain things from a spouse as basic as not cheating on you? Because talking to her is cheating on you. It’s allowing him to continue to get the benefits of another woman who he has already betrayed you with. They share an intimacy outside of your marriage.

If this is controlling then I am certain that your husband should not be married.

... and to add to that particularly excellent point...

Telling your wife, or heavily implying, that you will leave her in the poor house if she insists that you stop talking to your girlfriend is controlling, abusive behavior.

^^^I've been on this site for 15-ish years. Gently, I've read some crazy nonsense coming from so-called experts (therapists) but this is the biggest crock of BSh*t I've seen. ^^^^This therapist is absolutely clueless. Just because your husband is giving you the lion's share of his attention, you have to accept he stays in touch with his affair partner. rolleyes

I think you are not getting the point.

Nobody here is able to describe how THEY know their spouse is no more in touch with the ex AP and, a part for telling me my therapist is crap, nobody is able to give me an answer because nobody, even the strictest ones who have put in place "reassuring measures" which are a total nonsense and bullshit are not able to know for sure. There is in every couple a level of trust you need to put into your spouse, the same person who has surely made many changes since the affair but who, IF THEY WANTED, is able to lie to you exactly as they did before, looking at you in the eyes.

Therefore I don't think there is a single person HERE OR ANYWHERE ELSE who can be 100% SURE their spouse and the ex AP are not in touch and they haven't been in touch since the affair. Here you come to the same situation I am experiencing.

You don't know if your spouse is still lying to you because as people mentioned internet is unfortunately able to hide many secrets. Especially if you found out about the affair on their phone or email account, they would be a lot more cautious than then and would use email accounts you don't even know about and would be able to surf the net and use websites using private browsing that does not leave track of what they search and what websites they use.

So, unless you have a remote clone of their phone you can't be 100%. And even then, you cannot be sure they don't own a secondary phone they always keep in the office and you don't even know they have. Well, at least I am sure they cannot physically meet each other since I have the whereabouts both of my husband and the ex AP. How many of you are so sure they do not meet?

Do you understand where I am coming from? Contact or no contact with the AP, if you feel you are not being betrayed I believe that should be ok. Unfortunately having been cheated on has awaken thoughts in all of us we never had to deal with.

Telling your wife, or heavily implying, that you will leave her in the poor house if she insists that you stop talking to your girlfriend is controlling, abusive behavior.

My husband has never said so, you are making assumptions of abuse but actually he has always shared in half all the money we have, even if the vast majority of it comes form his employment. I myself contacted a lawyer where I used to live (a country in Europe) and my country has unfortunately changed many laws for the worst and established that women who, especially those with a professional qualification or a degree, even if they dedicated their life to the family in the past, can go to work and alimony is getting smaller and smaller all the time. This does not consider that unemployment is up to the roof and that after a certain age there is no way any company will hire you. SO would I risk to end up in dire straits and poverty? Haven't I got enough on my plate? Honestly divorce is not an idea I can consider.

I am only trying to find a coping mechanism. I am trying to see all the positive things that are happening to me, the freedom I am enjoying and I am creating two new businesses to see if they give me a security that could have a future, but I doubt they will. Pension in my country is for life and a business is for the time you feel you can work and as soon as you stop there is no other income. I am not a person who wants money for holidays or expensive cars or jewellery, I just want not to struggle when the time comes for me to retire and medical care is needed or a care home is a necessity.

I would be very naive not to take these things into account.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 7:22 PM, Friday, February 23rd]

I don't know how long it's been for you since D day but what Emergent 8 describes is a situation that is tolerable for a few months but at one point you either trust your spouse or it is a relationship solely based on control and fear.

If I were your husband I would feel like in a prison and being treated like a child does not make it an adult and balanced relationship based on trust.

I posted my expample in the hopes of showing you what healthy R and good boundaries looks like in these circumstances.
It's been 7 years since D-day for us. I was strict/intense about it at the outset for sure (with good reason as AP's mention was a giant trigger) but at this point, it's not really a big deal. IN the early days, we'd usually have a big discussion about ground rules etc and a debrief afterwards so I could grill him on how things went and he could ease my concerns but with time and the rebuilding of trust, that has loosened. As I mentioned, it doesn't arise very often and I don't think a quick text is particularly onerous. At this point, it usually goes something like this:

Him (via text): "FYI: There is a company wide zoom meeting about X next Friday that I am expected to attend and I assume AP will also be at."
Me (via text): "Okay. Thanks for letting me know."
(Assuming nothing out of the ordinary happens at the meeting, it's typically not mentioned again. If something out of the ordinary occurs he will bring it up and we'll discuss.)

To me that is respectful/considerate heads up that shows me he understands and respects my boundaries and is committed to his own, rather than an unreasonable, irrational forever prison sentence. He is a grown up and could leave at any time if he feels this is an unreasonable request. I am under no illusion that I could control him, even if I wanted to (I don't!). He is not a pushover, and has never once suggested that he sees this as me being controlling. He understands that it is a natural consequence of his actions and the purpose is to make me feel comfortable. His willingness to be transparent in this way though, has enabled me to build up my trust over time so that now we're able to discuss these issues without them being so loaded. The fact that he has boundaries in place, gives me some reassurance that he'll make better choices the next time an opportunity presents itself - because it will. This has allowed me to transfer the vigilance that I had in those early days to him. Being able to trust him with the small stuff has enabled me to trust him with the big stuff. We have re-established balance. I don't say this in a critical/denigratory way at all, but I'm not sure you can say the same.

I clearly said but maybe it is lost in all the responses that I know daily where the Fu****g B***h is because her social pages are full of all her DAILY whereabouts with map included and time and activities she is doing, I saw when she was going for chemo, when she lost her hair, when it grew back and so on and given the distance it is really IMPOSSIBLE for them at the moment to be in the same place. They may talk, but they may not meet.

Not actively cheating is not the same as being reconciled. To be honest, the fact that you're regularly following the OW on social media suggests to me that you're WAY more focused on AP at this point than I am. I have no idea how far past D-day you are, and i think it's normal/natural to want to obsess about the AP at first (I certainly did). My concern is that you (and your husband) have allowed your physical distance from the AP to act as a substitute for the actual work that is necessary to heal the marriage. I assure you, that outside of these random instances that come up every few months, I can honestly say that AP does not occupy much (or any!) space in my brain on a day to day basis anymore.

The ONLY WAY TO BE 100% SURE NOT TO BE BETRAYED IN ANY WAY OR FORM IS NOT TO HAVE ANY RELATIONSHIP.

Therefore I don't think there is a single person HERE OR ANYWHERE ELSE who can be 100% SURE their spouse and the ex AP are not in touch and they haven't been in touch since the affair. Here you come to the same situation I am experiencing.

Yep! I am well aware that my husband could cheat again. I'm well aware that no boundary I set guarantees that it wont happen again. He's lied once, he could do it again. BUT obviously continued ongoing contact with the AP is a risk factor for cheating, and it is reasonable to minimize/eliminate that. The fact that it isn't a complete solve or a guarantee against future cheating, doesn't mean that it is pointless. Seatbelts don't prevent all injuries in a car accident but we, as a society, have logically chosen to mandate them because it reduces the risk of serious injury. Making murder illegal does not prevent it from happening sometimes, but we all agree it's a reasonable thing to prohibit.

If you think your husband has to obey like a dog and not CHOOSE, your relationship is anyway compromised, a lot more than mine.

Right now your husband is CHOOSING to be dishonest with you, and you are choosing to accept that.

Me not being willing to accept disrespect and lying is not me controlling my husband, it's about setting out my boundaries for how I expect to be treated. I don't own him. He can choose to live up to those standards, or not, and I can choose to stay with him or not. Nobody is controlling anyone.

BUT obviously continued ongoing contact with the AP is a risk factor for cheating, and it is reasonable to minimize/eliminate that. The fact that it isn't a complete solve or a guarantee against future cheating, doesn't mean that it is pointless.

You obviously don't have the full picture and it would be really hard to share all the details. However two years ago we took part in a sport event before moving here and I imagined the ex AP would be part of it but I said nothing. Immediately after the event my husband spontaneously said he saw her and just waved hi and so did she but then he was at the finishing line taking photos of me and cheering up at me. He came to me telling me about it without me asking if he had seen her and actually when he mentioned her name I even asked "who? and he had to specify whom he had seen. So as you see there are things he mentions spontaneously. So again it can well be that your husband tells you things he wants you to know and could not share things he doesn't particularly want you to know.

Again in your case you know of the times when he chooses to be honest with you but don't know of times he could choose/chooses not to be that honest and transparent because he has his own will you can't always verify. You have to use trust. And honestly in my opinion trust is that they will not discuss intimate things anymore but until they work in the same workplace, even if they are on different floors and work on different projects, it is impossible for them to exclude they will meet. In our case there is an ocean that separates them geographically so for the time being they cannot physically meet.

In your case and in my case in the future, when we move back, they could be with other people on the elevator and then all the others get off and they are together alone and you will never know about it if he chooses not to tell you and frankly for me it is ridiculous after so many years to still expect him to tell you every time they meet. It is an OBSESSION AND AN ADDCITION and I have no idea if that was suggested by your "wonderful" therapist but to me it sounds like nonsense after so many years and demonstrates a total lack of trust and a desire of control. If it suits you, ok, but please don't sell it as a healthy choice because it really isn't. The truth is you are terrified he could be meeting her on his own and I understand you, they are (have been) liars and we are putting our trust in someone who has already shown to us what they CAN do. If they decide to replicate that behaviour we are not able to know. But that unfortunately applies TO EACH AND EVERY RELATIONSHIP. And all we can do is take the risk or stay alone, no more relationships with anyone, so nobody has even the slightest possibility to break our hearts.

In my opinion it is healthier to say openly "It is my desire that you no longer has contacts with the ex AP. I can't control what you choose to do, I want to trust you and it is up to you if you want to disappoint me again and destroy all the progress we have been making in these years. Don't complain if you make the wrong choices and then our relationship goes to the breaking point again."

He can choose to live up to those standards, or not, and I can choose to stay with him or not. Nobody is controlling anyone.

YEP, he can continue to choose to still keep in contact with the FB and one day I can still decide I want to risk poverty and decide I have had enough or he can still choose he wants to see her more and our matrimony is fucked. Nobody owns anyone and we are all free to choose. I have the luxury to know there is still some occasional contact. All the people who base their choice of staying on the newly found honesty of their partner unfortunately have no guarantee that is the case.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 8:43 PM, Friday, February 23rd]

I think you are not getting the point. duh

I am getting the point. The point in your marriage is that you KNOW your husband is still in contact with AP and you are willing for him to do so knowing that this woman wanted to replace you.

How did I know my husband was no longer in contact with AP?

1. He dumped her on D-Day.

2. He gave me access to everything, work emails, social media, voice mails, his phone, his computer, etc. Accountability for his whereabouts. No longer socialized on the job when women were involved. My husband was not willing to risk losing his marriage or his children for his selfish actions. He was in fear pretty much from the get go that I'd walk out or ask him to leave.

3. AP lived on the opposite coast.

4. I forced AP to tell her husband before I did.

5. My husband, AP, and AP husband all worked for the same company. Any attempt at contact, I'd immediately go to HR. They knew it bc I would not tolerate one more second of disrespect.

6. When AP tried to contact him professionally ONCE, my husband told me immediately, and he had his admin tell her entire group to go through the admin because my husband was swamped with emails. Never once did I see another attempt at contact except some bs fake emails which we understood was her pathetic attempt to contact him. Crickets, we ignored her and actually laughed at her desperation.

7. My husband cut his travel schedule to the bones, and no longer set up training/conferences at her site.

8. My husband found a new job after a 25-year career with the same company.

9. Many discussions about boundaries on and off the job. He understood and never once flinched at being transparent.

10. He understood the consequences of his actions and didn't not complain once that he lost some privileges and freedom because of them.

Adding: He GAVE UP a sport he had been involved in weekly since he was a kid, his passion so to speak. WHY? To focus on repairing the damage he had done. He did that on his own to devote time to us.

He is choosing to be friendly with someone who helped cause you pain. Why? Why is he choosing to be friendly with her?

You're right. If he wants to lie,he will. If he wants to cheat, he will. We have no control over another's actions. Every BS knows that.

The problem isn't that you won't set a boundary.

The problem is that he is choosing to be friendly with a woman who represents what (presumably) is a shameful part of his past.

What work has he done, on himself, to become a safe partner?

If the shoe were on the other foot, would he accept you being friendly with a man you cheated with?

Molly,

I think that what you are saying makes sense, if there wasn’t an addiction involved.

Your husband won’t do therapy to deal with the addiction.

Your husband won’t stay no contact with her. Which from my experience still provides many of the benefits she offered to begin with.

He is still using the drug and will not get treatment.

I think what you are fighting with the people on this site about is they want to minimize your risk for future harm.

And the truth is if he has that need to have extra, above your marriage it will either be succumbed to with this AP or he will just transfer it to another.

No, none of us have assurance our spouse won’t cheat again, but people like me and emergent are married to people who went through treatment and shared deep discoveries about themselves. We watched them change their coping mechanisms and how they manages their lives. The worked to heal from their traumatic childhoods or other relationships. They are willing to say "how you feel if more important than me remaining in contact with her.

Sure, it could all be bullshit. But labeling what your husband has done as healthy, I disagree. He will not come to terms with the baggage of his issues with his mother, he has not gone to therapy to figure out why he feels he needs extra attention above his relationships or why his character allows him to feel it’s okay to cheat. He has not said I care more about how you feel than talking to her. He doesn’t even work with her and he still talks to her and says he misses her.

So I think to say that this is healthy it’s not. You are suffering from it and in denial of why. I know the reason is because he isn’t going to change these things and divorce is not an option for you. The only way to cope in my opinion is not to be vulnerable and be okay not to trust, get your funding up because at some point if it’s not this woman it will be another. That is the only answer you have to work with.

I think it’s worth stating that culturally America and parts Europe think of infidelity differently and that’s why we are all blown away by your therapist. Here, we are under the understanding that we will not be able to heal in an environment where there is still contact, our spouses do not understand the magnitude of the trauma they inflicted, and make some meaningful effort and work on their character.

But the people here have your best interests in mind.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:08 PM, Friday, February 23rd]