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What’s the point? What’s the end game? What’s the purpose and benefit ? Is there really such a thing as happily reconciled marriage after so much damage has been done?

For those of you who decided to reconcile, why did you do it? And are you happy with the decision?

My reason to reconcile evolved from dday to later on. On dday I felt terrified of what divorce meant for me and my kids. But besides that I also knew I loved my husband and he was my best friend (yes, I know, it sounds like Stockholm Syndrome).

On dday 2 (my WH felt responsible for ow, went underground as friends, cried on each other's shoulder until 4 months later when he realised she wasn’t his friend and came home and confessed) my desire to Reconcile disappeared and I embarked on what I considered the path to end our relationship. WH, by now fully aware of the damage he’s done and determined to show me he means business, managed to make me consider still reconciling, albeit on a monthly review basis, and here we are, 6 and a half years later, happily reconciled(reconciling, I don’t see it as a finite process).

Due to dday 2 I saw the process as two fold: if our reconciliation worked that’d be great but if it didn’t (and during the first 3 years or so I thought it wouldn’t be successful as the damage was too much) I wanted to ensure I wouldn’t feel like I’ve wasted my time trying. With this is mind I’ve focused on my personal growth in parallel with holding my WH accountable for his actions and our marriage healing process. If it sounds exhausting, it is because it was exhausting. I focused on my career, my kids, my hobbies, IC, MC later on and endless discussions with WH about the affair and his work to become a safer partner. Once we finished discussing the affair details, we started working on what we actually wanted our marriage to look like. Exhausting doesn’t describe it!

The purpose? I guess I always thought that if he, the man I loved, managed to convince me that he loves me and only me, that I wasn’t plan B, that he can be a safe partner for me (later on actually realising that my safety is generated from within), we can find happiness again.

Why? Because we had tons of history, we’ve been perfect for each other all our lives pre affair and during the affair (as stupid as that sounds) we’ve always known we will grow old together. I’ve seen his affair for what it was, a middle age crisis where he basically went on a self destructive path because he was dissatisfied with who HE was and the life he carved for himself.

Saying that, none of that would have mattered if he wouldn’t have moved mountains to show me permanent change, more so as, with the shadow of a second dday, I believed absolutely nothing for years on end and put him through fire.

We are truly happy now and whilst the affair will never go away, and it still has its impact in all the decisions I/we make, it is something in the past, a healed marriage wound.

Reconciliation is a marathon, not a sprint, I’ve definitely been through the "is he a serial cheater?" phase where I literally turned it all upside down (went into full investigation mode, went through social media with a fine comb, downloaded activity records, checked years of emails etc), rationalised that actually, the way he reacted to the entire affair and when caught leads to a conclusion of a novice (but I’ll never know and I’m ok with that now).

I’ve been tormented by the images I formed of him and the AP, their affair moments based on what I knew, I’m pretty much "meh” about it now. I was "lucky" that ow turned completely bunny boiler against him (and me) and he could truly experience vileness in the woman who previously boosted his ego. That was beautiful to witness (whilst she was also coming after me but that’s another story), imagine realising that the person who told you how special you are now wants to, and I quote, “destroy your life”. He could see first hand the quality of woman he was married to vs the quality of woman he cheated with.

One thing he acknowledged often was the fact that during all this I was able to hold my head high even during my worst moments whilst dealing with people who tried to bring me down in the pig pen where they’ve been "playing".

I have no regrets, if he were to cheat tomorrow again, my life did not stop since dday, I wouldn’t consider I’ve wasted my time. On a personal level I’ve grown so much, my career is in a place where I need absolutely zilch financially from him, my kids have grown (my youngest is 17 this year, she was 10 at dday) and we’ve had some amazing times alongside the bad ones (healing is never linear).

I hope my experience helps you a bit in your journey.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 6:08 PM, Thursday, March 14th]

The whole better/marriage 2.0 is not true. Don’t believe those books about how a husbands affair saved a marriage, that may be true for that author (or, she’s trying to make money off vulnerable people) but vast majority that’s not what true R is. It will never be better, just different.

I think you can only speak from your perspective therefore the generic statement made above is false.

I for one have been in what I considered a happy marriage pre affair. And yet I can tell you that my marriage is a better marriage post affair. Nope, I will not be "grateful" that the affair happened. But I am realistic and I can tell you that my marriage is better, we are completely vulnerable, transparent, we’ve seen each other at our worst and still chose each other. We communicate so much more openly and the word compromise doesn’t exist anymore. Our marriage is so much more equal as well. If you truly reconcile, by that I mean that both partners are 100% in, vulnerable, transparent, accountable, committed to rebuilding a better marriage, then a better marriage will emerge.

Put it simply: I was unwilling to stay with a cheater in a worse marriage, it had to be better in order for me to stay in the relationship.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 6:30 PM, Thursday, March 14th]

both partners are 100% in, vulnerable, transparent, accountable, committed to rebuilding a better marriage, then a better marriage will emerge.

Definitely! I think for successful R and to have a better M the BS has to be willing to let the A go and the WS has to move mountains and become a much better and safer partner. I can't understand it because I am not cut out for R. Even if my xWS had done all the above I was not willing to let the A go. It was a dealbreaker for me. Luckily my xWS ended up being a crappy partner and unremorseful so it was easier to move to D. The A's he had don't even cross my mind anymore. While I was with him I thought about them every single day.

BS has to be willing to let the A go…

It depends what you mean by this and I believe this is always misinterpreted. Yes I needed to reach a point where the A is in the past as that is what healing looked like for me.

But it didn’t mean that the A would be avoided whilst it was the elephant in the room. In fact that’s what I said to WH from the get go, if he’s hoping that I’ll bite my tongue to ensure I don’t hurt his feelings bringing up the A he can pack his bags as it ain’t gonna happen.

Of course after a (loooong) while, I became exhausted by the affair talk myself and I started working on understanding when I was pain shopping vs when the discussion was necessary. But I think that was around year 4.

To be fair WH understood that rebuilding isn’t about learning to "put up with it". It was about true empathy and less self absorbed behaviour. He wasn’t perfect, he had to learn a lot but so did I.

Yes the A is in the past now, 6 years later and we rarely refer to it but if I/we do (and yes, there are moments when he mentions it) there’s no eye rolling from him, no "will you ever let go" statements. I expected permanent change, not just keeping me sweet whilst I healed.

I just wanted to clarify what letting go looks like from my perspective.

But two broke couples have their own version of affairs and then realize they need to fix their own problems, yeah of course you’re right and going to have a much more enhanced relationship.

Those of us on the one side, it’s not the same. Both of you engaged in affairs before you knew your WH cheating or before they did. SacredSoul if im misremembering your time line please feel free to correct me.

No, you're correct about the timeline and about me being a MH. I didn't know that he had cheated when I had my EA. The unique thing about my EA, though, was that my H knew about it almost from the start and encouraged progression to PA. Obviously, we were dysfunctional AF. There was nowhere to go but up - or out. Thankfully, we chose up, and we worked hard at it. So yeah, my marriage is infinitely better post-DDay than it was pre-DDay.

Those who put in the work to get down to the nitty gritty, get real about their dysfunctions, and work hard to change are going to be better off. Those who don't - won't. And let's be real - everyone who has an A is dysfunctional to some degree. Some worse than others. Some BSs miss the calm before the storm, and I get that. Some of us were stormy all along and found the calm in the work afterwards.

Those of us on the one side, it’s not the same.

Others on this thread discount your assertion.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 7:22 PM, Thursday, March 14th]

Wow, sure seems like a few of these posts would benefit from an "in my opinion" or "in my experience" phrase. Not sure how some people can comment on the success and state of another’s marriage after reconciliation. 🤷‍♀️ on that note, I am not a mad hatter and my marriage is loads better than pre affair. We are closer and more connected than ever. Does that mean I am happy the affair happened? Hell no. Was it worth it given the outcome? Probably still no as I didn’t know what I was missing in my old marriage and was happy. But, it happened so at least I got a better marriage out of it. Scarred for sure, but better. Life is short, make the margaritas and start living the life you want.

** Posting member to member(s) **

I chose R because we had made a good M that had lasted over 40 years by d-day. During our M, my W stuck with me through some very bad times. She was clearly in the midst of a bad time on d-day, and I thought she had earned some support/grace from me. Also, her behavior was remorseful from the start - immediate NC, no blameshifting, TT, lies, or minimizing. She took responsibility and answered all my questions. She took confrontation from our MC (her IC) again and again and again.

All in all, I thought our M had gotten better and better over the years, until the A, and I thought it would keep getting better after the A if we worked at it. I also thought I was a better person with her than without her, and I knew neither R nor D would erase the trauma of being betrayed. Besides, I still wanted her in my bed.

The funny thing is that she thought it took at least 5 months before she began to feel what she called 'remorse'.

I think I would have chosen D if she hadn't continued to act remorsefully, but we, to, would say our M is better than it was before the A, even though the A is part of our history.

I could share some complaints, and so could she, but they've been there since 1965, and they haven't driven us apart yet.

My W & I are both happier in our M now than before the A. If you disagree on that, show me something I've said that contradicts my statements of being happy.

I believe virtually all BSes can survive and thrive. I believe many BSes can, in fact, R and make their Ms better if the BS and their WS do the necessary work. It's fine to be unwilling to do that work. I don't see any moral superiority in R ... or in D. In general, I'm all for the BS choosing the path that will get them the life they want.

*****

Wow, sure seems like a few of these posts would benefit from an "in my opinion" or "in my experience" phrase.

IMO, 'in my opinion' isn't necessarily enough. Too often, 'IMO' is used in an attempt to hide a generalization that is not supported by data.

'In my experience' is better, but even 'IME' has been abused. For example, 'IME, every ____ is evil, so we should be able to kill every _____' can be evil in itself.

The real need, IMO, is to stay closely connected to the fact that we know only a small fraction of reality when posting.

*****

The whole better/marriage 2.0 is not true. ... It will never be better, just different.

I’m not speaking in absolutes....

I don't know how you can use words that are more absolute, and I do not see how you think it's respectful to reject what someone says about their own M.

I see from your follow up that maybe you didn't mean what you actually said, but ... it's always better to accept what people say about themselves unless there are internal conflicts in what a person says about themself.

I can accept something like, 'I don't see how an M can be better after an A than it was before.' That requires being open to responses from people who try to explain how their M is better after an A.

I'd find it even easier to accept, 'I don't see how an M could be better after an A, but I'll believe the people who say their M is better, even though I don't understand how.'

*****

Don’t believe those books about how a husbands affair saved a marriage, that may be true for that author ....

I agree that's hard to believe. In fact, the title is the reason I haven't tried to find the book.

There used to be a thread that was usually on the first page of JFO titled something like, 'It wasn't the A that made your M good ... it was the work you did after the A'. If anyone can remember the exact name, let me know, and I'll ask MH to bring it back. None of the search arguments we've used has found it.

Could my M have gotten better without my W's A? My W says, 'No.' I'd say, 'Maybe, but she had to go through some sort of crisis to hit rock bottom before she could fix herself.'

The whole better/marriage 2.0 is not true.

Those of us who were betrayed without the mad hat, it’s very different.

Of course the first statement is an absolute. An absolute statement is one that is true without exception or uncertainty. If we take your words at face, then you are saying that 0 marriages are better following d-day…….and I guess the necessary inference is therefore that everyone who says theirs is better is lying? That may be your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but you can’t possibly know that. When you received pushback, instead of softening your stance you moved the goalposts by by modifying who your original statement applied to (marriages involving infidelity where only one partner cheated versus madhatter marriages). FYI, this is a perfect example of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

In modifying your original argument, you then purport to speak on behalf of all betrayed spouses (who are not madhatters). Not only are generalizations and/or purporting to speak on behalf others contrary to the guidelines of this site (and clearly rubbing some members the wrong way), but as someone who is still pretty early into your ONLY first-hand experience with infidelity, it seems incredibly audacious to suggest you are capable and qualified to speak on behalf of such a large group of people. The reality, as pointed out by others, is that you can’t possibly know what is true for other people’s marriages. HINHF, you are absolutely the expert on your own situation and I do not doubt for one minute that what you are saying is true for you, but like most of us here, your expertise on the subject of infidelity and reconciliation is limited to your own experience, and however common you perceive your experience to be (based on your anecdotal research) it clearly is not universal. To suggest that it is, is an example of the hasty generalization fallacy (sorry, I'm a nerd about this stuff). Just because X is true for you, and X is also true for B, C, and D, does not mean that X is true for E, F, G, and H. Put another way, you don’t get to speak for me.

For the record, I don’t think you’d have received any pushback at all if you tempered your statement or acknowledged it was your opinion (rather than stating it as a fact).

----

Now to the original question.

Why reconcile? What’s the point? What’s the end game? What’s the purpose and benefit ? Is there really such a thing as happily reconciled marriage after so much damage has been done?

For those of you who decided to reconcile, why did you do it? And are you happy with the decision?

I think people’s reasons for R tend to be pretty personal. For me, I tried to think about the life and marriage I wanted for myself (based on the current knowledge base that included the A - not what I had wanted or planned for myself the day before d-day) and tried to determine whether I felt that staying with my H was the best way to achieve that or not. Obviously that involved a fair bit of consideration as to whether my husband was a good candidate for R, whether I believed he had it in him to do the enormous work of being vulnerable and digging into himself and his whys and all the other stuff that WSs need to do. I also had to be honest about whether I was a good candidate for R, if indeed he was able to do all those things. (Both are necessary!) Would I be able to respect him again, would I be able to feel pride in the relationship, would I be able to keep my respect for myself in tact, and be able to do the work I would need to do to get over my ego, and the trauma, and the sexual hang-ups, and all the resentments and fears that the A had drudged up. As devastated as a I was, I am strong , self-reliant and adaptable. I know my worth. I had other options - good ones even - and as much as I loved him, I was not willing to settle for a unhappy marriage just to avoid the consequences of divorce. My standards and expectations were high.

I’m 7 years out and I’ve considered myself reconciled for a while now. I am happy with my life and decision to stay. I know that my happiness with the way things are now doesn't guarantee my future.

As often as it comes up, I have always disliked the premise of the question of whether my new marriage is better than my old one. It feels impossible to compare. It’s been 7 years – my husband and I are both different people than we were 7 years ago, and infidelity or not, we would always have been different people 7 years later than we were back then. There was never a crystal ball, I have no idea what things would have looked like had not happened. I am aware of how people can become complacent as they settle in to ‘the rest of their lives’. I worry that could easily have been us eventually. The dysfunction and the things that led to his A in the first place, were always there. Maybe his A was always inevitable – if not then, then sometime. If it had happened later, maybe the dysfunction and resentments would have been that much more entrenched, and change would have been that much harder that R, such that the marriage I have today, this marriage i love, would not have been possible. I just don’t know – I can’t. That's the problem with this question.

What I do know is that our marriage and relationship is both more fragile and more resilient than I had ever appreciated beforehand. Having been through all this, I know I am far less likely to take any of that for granted going forward. I am not a black/white thinker - I assume that helped quite a bit in getting to where I am now. I am able to look at my husband today and see him for the wonderful, flawed person that he is. I know I have never been perfect either.

Despite all of my gratitude for where I am now, you’ll never catch me saying something like, "his infidelity is the best thing that ever happened to us." I will NEVER be grateful that it happened. It was easily the hardest thing I’ve ever gone through. What I am grateful for (and fucking proud of too), is how we handled it. I don’t say that to be cocky, and I apologize if it comes across that way. With the benefit of hindsight (it certainly didn’t feel great at the time), I can see that infidelity was the catalyst for a lot of growth, learning, vulnerability, discovery, improvements in communication, advances in understanding, etc etc. that I am not sure would have happened if there wasn’t a giant fire lit under both of our asses.

I don’t believe in happily ever after - never have. Good marriages aren’t bestowed upon the lucky, they involve a lot of effort. I refuse to look at my marriage (or my husband) like some special beautiful ornament on a shelf that was broken and glued back together, but will forever be damaged or less valuable than it was before. If I believed that, I truly wouldn’t still be here - I'd be out looking for a better ornament. If you believe the best will always be behind you, I can’t imagine being motivated to put the effort in necessary to achieve better. It seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Lots of people cite logistical reasons (worry about finances, child custody, division of assets etc) and while I agree those things are valid, practical, necessary considerations (that existed for me too!), I think true R has to be about more than wanting to avoid divorce. You have to want more than just staying together and you have to want more than for things to go back to the way they were. That’s enough to stay married I suppose, but for true R, I really do believe that both of you have to be all in.

Edit: I am aware that my above response has the potential to come across as sanctimonious to some, particularly to those who didn’t have the same options that I had when choosing whether to stay or go, due to very real privileges I absolutely acknowledge in terms of my relative age, financial circumstances, ability to support myself, and the fact that we did not have any children at the time (though that was a factor that wasn’t as straightforward as you might think) etc. I didn’t write any of the above to be insensitive and I hope it’s not taken that way. It’s know it’s a lot easier to stand on my soapbox and preach about having high expectations and the work of a BS when I had a remorseful spouse, who appeared to be willing, ready, and able to do the work. I am very aware that not everyone who wants that, gets that. That said, I don’t know if my spouse would have gotten there on his own, if he thought keeping me and complacency was an option. I also don’t think that would have been enough.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 2:18 AM, Friday, March 15th]

I chose reconciliation with my eyes wide open. I knew what he had done and I knew what it would require - what steps he needed to take - in order for us to reconcile. It wasn’t so much the "demands" - he went NC no problem, cut out all the "hangers-on" who helped facilitate his A - friends who lied for him, his cousin who arranged happy hours for him and AP to spend time together. Threw out his old phone, got a new one, with a new number. Read my bio for more insight - so many life changes going on in our lives leading up to his A. Mental health crisis, suicidal ideations…he had recently retired from the military after serving 23yrs - his job was demanding and required weeks and months away from home on deployments to very dangerous places. The day he asked for a second chance was the day we laid the old marriage to rest and began rebuilding. NC was super easy; he never developed extreme deep love, affection, or devotion to his AP. I hate to say it but she was just a vessel, nothing but a warm body and a warm mouth. So going NC was easy for him. He affaired down HARD, and coming out of the affair fog took minutes. She blames WH for making her look bad, ruining her reputation, ruining her own marriage with OBS. OBS left her, got custody of the kids, got remarried and has gone on to live a happy life with his new wife. AP is still an old, bitter, hag who still harbors a grudge. I didn’t have to press WH for details - he willingly gave up the info, gave details as painful as they were to hear and for him to share. He went into IC and laid his soul bare and told the TRUTH about what he’d done. It wasn’t until he was truthful with himself that he was able to make breakthroughs in IC. Not just for things he’d done to me, his unfaithfulness, lying, the A, but also dealing with his combat trauma. I don’t regret reconciling. I always thought an A would be an absolute deal breaker for me. It wasn’t. Maybe because I saw what he was going through mentally, struggling, suffering. He’d watched his best friend of 20 yrs die in a IED explosion right in front of him - he was in the 2nd vehicle. He wasn’t able to attend the stateside funeral because he was still in country. His other SF buddies took the ashes and jumped over a drop zone at a major military installation and released the ashes. It was a whole thing - and he missed it bc he was sitting across the world, in a god forsaken place wondering if this life - HIS life - had any meaning at all. Every single one of our paths are different. Our circumstances are different. What led up to the A - what led us here to SI - we all have our own stories. The road to healing was ROUGH. At year 1 I was still ruminating on details, feeling pain. That year AP harassed us, stalked us, followed us - drove by our home, parked across the street at a small park to watch our home. My son would go to the playground and she’d be in her car watching us, him. That was also the year I found out that MY home had been HER childhood home!! She grew up in that house. Imagine finding out that news and having to go on living in the house - house she had been in having sex with my husband and a house she had lived in as a child. 😳
WH was in deep IC making strides. Going into Year 2 the blow felt less devastating. We sold the house, and moved across the country. A fresh start is what we needed. Years 3-11 I barely thought about the A. We focused on life, getting our kids thru college, graduate schools, their careers, marriages, grandchildren. WH decided sitting around being Retired was for the birds and went back to school and began a new career. He’s still on that track but during this period -sometime in December 2022 - He made a choice to reach out to an old family friend of his - a woman he grew up with, known since elementary school, and started secretly texting - I discovered this in its infancy. Texts full of flirty compliments, adoration, validation between this lonely 50 something yr old divorcee single mom. Confronted and was ready to WALK. I went scorched earth - demanded NC, all that. I chose reconciliation again. This time the stakes are different. I have a lot invested in this marriage - financially, assets, we have children, grandchildren. Our youngest son is still making his way through college (graduate school). He receives benefits from his father and divorcing would complicate matters. I don’t want to jeopardize that. But ASIDE from all that I truly LOVE my husband. I do feel that he’s the one. We fit well together. We laugh, have a lot of fun times, we travel, we go to concerts, sporting events, we live near a major metropolitan city and every month we try a new restaurant in the city. And the sex. The sex is still amazing. That’s one area we never struggled in. And yes he did falter - he made a series of choices that betrayed me again in Dec 2022 - he’s back at it working on what’s inside him that makes him feel that he needs outside affirmation. I see in him a lot of growth and progress. And same here - I’m in IC still. Working on being the best version of myself. I have my own career, my own retirement plan, I can stand on my own two feet; I know I’d be ok if this didn’t work out - but I truly believe that for us, for our lives, for me, for him - we are doing what feels right for us.

I’m going against the grain so I’m getting a lot of pushback, and that’s fine. I cannot speak for all marriages, so I will apologize for that. SI is not the norm though. This community is great, but it is a bubble that has a lot of biases.

Go to any other infidelity form, be it Red, quora, CL, or any of the 100s of others and it will be seen the experiences here are not the norm, at all. Yes of course it’s all anecdotal, and I’m sure there are many fakers/trolls in all of them, doesn’t discount that a lot of marriages don’t R, or if they do it’s not better at all.

There is no good scientific data on this. Google the term "how many marriages end after an affair" and it will pull up stats all across the spectrum. Some claim that %57 will end, (Marriage after infidelity stats from gitrux) others state only %25-40 divorce after infidelity (what percentage of marriages survive infidelity from couples academy) to the many law firms that state only %25 stay together (Togrone Law Firm). I know the late Shirley Glass is often quoted and that the majority of her clients remained married after treatment with her, but did she ever do any further research? I haven’t found any, doesn’t mean she didn’t. Did she ever have couples come back and say things were better, or did she just take the data as they are still married? If someone has that details please let me know. Of all people, Esther Pearl is the only one I’ve found who actually followed up with three couples post affair. 2/3 were miserable. Last one was doing ok. The article is called after the storm. Clearly there is no actual scientific evidence to support R being the likely outcome after infidelity. So what is available are these internet forms. I enjoy SI because this is a community with few trolls, and there are many people here who seem genuine and have amazing perspectives. It is however a bubble and is vastly different from majority of infidelity forms. I will be bold and state this is the one sight where the majority of members who post regularly have claimed success in their R journey. Again, that is post frequently. This site was even created by a couple who claimed success with R. That creates a bias. Hope is not the friend of a BS. Reality is. To those who say your marriage is better after the affair, congratulations, and I am being sincere. That takes an amazing amount of courage and work to get through, but it is disingenuous to say your experience is the norm.

I’m not speaking in absolutes, you are a mad hatter, as is SacredSoul, and it’s interesting that both of you are also the ones saying their marriage is now better.

I absolutely respect both of you, and hiking out your personal perspective has shed tons of light on my WWs own affair, many of the things you have discussed has been almost verbatim what she described in own mind before this madness.

I know it’s a scary thing to reconcile and not know how it will turn out. I understand that your expectations are aimed low, and when you aim low there can’t be as much disappointment. Also you recognize that you are only in control of your side of the equation and that is healthy for you to see that.

So I understand why you say the things you do and maybe why you frequently do talk in absolutes. It’s kind of all risk control and that is a natural state to be in.

But my experience of reconciling did not benefit from his subsequent affair. I have known my husband for almost 30 years. Outside of his affair, he is the most honest, standup guy I know. He wasn’t even a little fucked up. He is conscientious , loving, a family man, trustworthy, and more. His affair happened because he could not cope with all the pain from my affair. It took him down. His affair didn’t pick him up, it took him even further down. A lot of his therapy was about coping and trying to respect himself again.

I think what you are discounting is that being madhatters our reconciliation was so much harder than if there had been one affair. You might view it as he got to go out and have sex with someone else too, so it’s even. It doesn’t work like that, not even remotely.

I don’t expect you to understand that, you haven’t walked in my shoes. But trust me when I say that we have both been to our breaking point many times. And the reconciliation rate for a madhatter is even lower than when there has been a single affair.

I think the reason that it did work is because we had a good marriage before all of this. We knew there was something worth fighting for. It worked because we both wanted it and out in the effort. We did IC, MC, we went to the Gottman retreat, and you may not realize this but we just got back from a two year trip in an RV where we spent a lot of focused time together. We sold the house and left everyone behind a year after his affair and a lot of people here told me not to do it. But I wanted that house sold (luckily I talked myself out of burning the fucking place down) and in the end it did a lot to heal our relationship. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to have that much dedicated time together but I say it because it was extreme measures.

My bigger concern is that you have a few limiting beliefs that you talk about like they are absolutes. You believe it’s impossible for a man to get over a physical affair, You think it’s impossible to build a new marriage. I am just saying that these are limiting beliefs because you are not going to let yourself hope.

And that is fine for you. But you keep saying stuff that is walking all over others experiences here. I know that’s not intentional. But I am a female that it took a year before I could perform sexually again (alone or with him), it was such a painful wound that I didn’t even talk about it here until about a year ago. I was embarrassed because I had my own affair, and it’s hard for me to hear “those are your repercussions”. We have a kinder group here than when I left before, so I am a bit more comfortable to talk about it all. I got greeted regularly with -what did you expect? And some of the sexual dysfunction also came from feeling like I shared my body with someone else and now it has no value to my husband. It took a long time to see that wasn’t true.

I think you are in a bad period right now, I saw that you said it’s affair season and I think you are naturally pragmatic on top of that. So I won’t talk you out of it, but these ideas will hold you back possibly from having more. I am only planting the seed because I wish every single person here the best possible result on what direction they take.

Edited to add: i would not rely on stats. When it comes to infidelity, so many tell no one. I have read that 50 percent of marriage have infidelity in their history. So if that’s true, I would say the divorce rate would be higher. I had to giggle here because I already thought maybe your career was in risk somehow, like maybe insurance or something of the like. Now I read you quoting stats and I figure I have to be close. You don’t have to say, I am just commenting on where my mind went.

Also I have been in some of the other forums. I don’t know why but I feel like this one attracts a more evolved group on the whole. More educated, and there is more control and moderation. I think you can decide from the variety of people who you might want to model your reconciliation upon. Knowing what I have seen in those groups, you will find me over here because the discussions are deeper and I learn more. I think there are plenty of non-reconciled people represented here. We have seen many failed recs in here too. I think maybe you are studying so hard that you might be having some confirmation bias.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:06 AM, Friday, March 15th]

This site was even created by a couple who claimed success with R.

CLAIMED? THIS is a HUGE reason that so many people who have successful R's do not come back on here to talk about it. They simply are NOT believed.

I get it. I had a false R in my 1st M. I THOUGHT we had successfully gotten through my H's 1st infidelity after I had done the pick-me-dance. Only...about 2 years later I caught him with another adultery co-conspirator. For the next 30 years I was adamant in my saying that once a cheater always a cheater. It happened to ME...so it HAD to be TRUE...right?

WRONG ! I can unequivocally and without hesitation put that theory to REST . If I was WRONG about that...then...what ELSE could I be wrong about? I started testing other theories. Come to find out...there were a whole lot of other things I was able to OWN...or reclaim...or take back...or whatever anyone wants to call it .

I misread your first post HellIsNotHalfFull. I thought you were writing that an A would NOT make a M BETTER. I wholeheartedly AGREE with that!! An A is ALWAYS a dealbreaker in every M...PERIOD. We have to decide if we want to make a NEW deal (R)...or VOID it completely (D). Whatever terms we come up with in the new deal may be very similar to the old one...but it will never be the same...the A has forever altered the M. HOWEVER...the WORK that is done after a new deal is put into place...that will determine the quality of the M going forward .

There was a BH on here who used to talk about how he would meet one-on-one with other BH's. At first they would tell him how they were doing awesome...their M's were going well and they were healing from the damage that the A had caused. After a while though...and a little bit more of ruminating and talking about the A...they would start to realize that things really weren't as great as they first said they were. YOU THINK????!!!!

If we continue to THINK about the PAST...we will continue to LIVE in the PAST. It really is that simple. ANY trauma teaches us that. Those poor soldiers coming back from wars...they don't WANT to relive the horror from that time...but the experience keeps coming back to haunt them. It is the same for anyone who has trauma.

It is easier said than done though...but it CAN be done . So PLEASE...don't give up HOPE. There is ALWAYS hope! Our limbic system is there to protect us. It sure protected me when my 2nd H confessed to his A...even though it was over 30 years after I caught my 1st H cheating. That experience came back up and protected me from doing that AWFUL pick-me-dance again...which BTW...NEVER works. BUT...we can retrain our limbic system through other calming experiences. This has proven to be very effective and can lead to fulfilling and satisfying lives .

Not every M will be better after an A. That is a TRUTH. But not every R after an A is miserable either. I am living proof of that . I know I am not the only one . My successful R does not depend on your belief. I am just here to give people HOPE like I was given by others when I first came here desperately searching for it .

So...WHY RECONCILE? Because when BOTH parties are ALL IN...and you get to the OTHER side of infidelity...it is MAGICAL !! It isn't easy...but it is soooooo WORTH IT!!

This site was even created by a couple who claimed success with R. That creates a bias. Hope is not the friend of a BS. Reality is. To those who say your marriage is better after the affair, congratulations, and I am being sincere. That takes an amazing amount of courage and work to get through, but it is disingenuous to say your experience is the norm.

Claimed… even that is a dig somehow implying that the creators of this site were intentionally misleading its users. That’s quite unfair coming from a person so early in their journey who doesn’t fully know if they’re 100% committed to reconciliation or if their WS is willing to put in the required effort.

Successful reconciliation isn’t fully defined. It is exactly what you want it to be. And if it doesn’t turn up to be what you want it, nothing forces you to remain in a miserable marriage. Nothing.

I’m not a religious person. I believe we only get one life. One! I was not willing, at 38, to settle for spending the rest of my life being miserable. I had a choice of holding my WH accountable and heal whilst building a better marriage or divorce and heal. I saw no other option. Healing is a personal responsibility, nobody is going to come and heal you.

In fact I’ve given myself a deadline back then to divorce if the affair is still the first thing I think of when I wake up and the last thing before I go to sleep by the time I reach the age of 45. For me that was a failed healing exercise regardless of what my WH did in order to reconcile. I turn 45 in two months’ time and I don’t plan to divorce, life is good. We have embraced life so much more since all this happened. We don’t take each other for granted for a start. We held onto each other for dear life when we were about to lose one another, we truly know nothing is guaranteed anymore. Every happy moment is a win.

None of us who came to deny your absolute statements claimed our experience is the norm by the way. I rarely post these days but when I do I’m hoping to bring some hope to those experiencing the depths of despair including you. To show that a full happy life is possible after affair trauma(regardless if they choose to divorce or reconcile).

And because I don’t actually believe it’s the norm, our marriage regained its specialness in my heart.

I wish you well and I hope you’ll find happiness on the other side whatever path you choose.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 6:02 PM, Friday, March 15th]

Lots of good discussion in this thread. I'm going to add my 0.02 mostly just in response to the original post.

I am a BS in about 18 months of R.

It was about 18 months post DDay that my R actually really started in a way that was meaningful and good. I don't know what/whether you went through much of a limbo phase. It's also possible you are currently in the "plain of lethal flatness", which I might have gone through, or it might have been an ordinary rough patch in the marriage. It's often hard to untangle A related problems from run-of-the-mill M problems. And probably not until at least 2 years out I was really sure which was which.

I’ve been wondering lately why anyone should reconcile after a devastating betrayal. What’s the point?

I've often advised people without practical entanglements to not bother. My answer remains the same now, 4 plus years after DDay. If you have no practical entanglements love isn't enough. The relationship with another person alone isn't enough. The affair completely devastates the relationship and causes permanent damage that is not worth repairing if there aren't things other than the relationship that will also be saved. If you don't have kids, a house, a shared business... I can't see it being worth it. Some people could disagree with me and say "love alone is enough" but I simply can't square that compared to just finding a new person and building a new betrayal free relationship. You'll find love there too.

I am not sugar coating it and I'm not white knuckling it over here. I'm just trying to state my view of things as to "what is the point".

What’s the end game?

You need to know what is acceptable to you and you need to write it down. You need to work with your WS to get there. The end game for me is a loving marriage that I feel safe and supported in. A single loving household to raise my children in with their mother. I can get the first from a new relationship. I cannot get the second.

What’s the purpose and benefit ?

I think I have made it really clear what the practical benefit is. So I'm going to go a step further here, and eventually get to the next question on happiness. The purpose of reconciling is to achieve the goals you set for end game. The benefit is that you have a better relationship functionally than before with your partner. That you have identified the thinking that resulted in the A, and have seen it corrected. That if you were to compare your known problem of a reformed cheater, that you would actually feel like it would be less of a risk than a new person who could be a serial cheater and liar, or someone not yet exposed to infidelity and tainted by a lot of very bad practices in society.

I'm not trying to point fingers at any specific thing, but it's very common these days for people to be "friends with exes", believe that "you should just trust me. Either you trust me or you don't", that you are "insecure" for demanding what is simply decency and respect in relation to the actions of your autonomous partner. Going back into that fray is it's own separate set of struggles that if you R you don't have to deal with. Your partner knows why you are setting boundaries, and if they are really a well reformed WS, they get in from of these types of issues that a new partner might tell you to "let go of your previous trauma". Hell, they might even be right. Maybe it's a different form of healing you need to D and start a new relationship than to R. I haven't done the D+new relationship thing, so I will stop speaking to it since I don't really have experience.

Is there really such a thing as happily reconciled marriage after so much damage has been done?

I'm really careful with the word "happily". I'm happy and reconciled. I'm happy that I have reconciled. I'm happy that I'm with my wife. I think the problem with "happily" is that it's an adverb. It's how you go about doing something. I was happily married. I went about my marriage with happiness and liked the many acts of being married as they brought me joy. Reconciliation is not something that as you go about it brings happiness. So I don't know that you can be happily reconciling or happily reconciled if you are doing it right. Maybe you can. I don't know. It's a very serious business that involves a lot of pain and work and I believe it is performed in a much more stern manner than happily allows for. This carries over to the marriage and there are many component of a continued M in R that are not performed happily. I do not happily occasionally check my wife's electronic devices. I do not happily ask for confirmation of the veracity of her after work social activities. I do not happily think of when she has successfully transferred vigilance and presents such confirmation on her own to me. It brings me safety and enhances trust, but it doesn't make me joyful and content. So I don't know about "happily". One does not "happily" eat the shit sandwich even if you are happy you chose to eat longer term.

For those of you who decided to reconcile, why did you do it? And are you happy with the decision?

I am happy with my decision. I made it because we have kids and the economic impact would have been negative for me, as well as generally favorable to my wife which leaves it's own shitty taste in my mouth. How is it that she gets to cheat and I basically have to pay her for it? I certainly went back and forth, and if one thing had turned one other way at the right moment, I may also be happy I chose to D (in some alternate universe). I think such waffling is normal. What's more, I give myself permission to change my mind and be unhappy with my decision in the future and to change my mind. I'm not committed to this decision in the way some people here might be. My decision to R is my decision to remain in the R process and to remain M'd as long as it suits me and as long as I still believe it's the best result available to me. I don't think I could do a vow renewal. I have made peace with this result which is certainly something I couldn't really stomach early in R. I think I derided the idea of a non-permanent marriage, but here I am. She injected the uncertainty, and I'm simply injecting an equal amount of uncertainty on my side. I think this is an unfortunate necessity (and maybe not for everyone, maybe you really can go back ALL IN with a WS that claims to be ALL IN, but I just don't believe my wife can be ALL IN anymore even if she is less likely to cheat than a random person at this point). This is some of the permanent damage I live with.

What do I get for this permanent damage? Well, in return we have learned a huge number of skills around marital communication, setting boundaries, and other similar benefits. I am also much more attentive to my needs now. I've stated this before and I'm not bludgeoning my wife with her A or anything like that. But before the A (not including the kids who always come first) I would say I always put the M first and me second. I would ask my wife before doing something that just benefitted me. I don't really ask for those things anymore. I just do them if I deem them reasonable. It's not "Hey is it ok if I go to the gym?" its "I'm going to the gym at 6:00 see you around 7:30". It's not "Is it OK if I buy this reasonable purchase for my hobby?" it's "I'm going to get a new blah, it's $XXX". I just can't be bothered with asking if any of that is OK anymore. I tell her what I want and then we figure out if there is any conflict that needs to be resolved around it. My marriage probably would have been better before if I was already like that, not constantly asking permission, but this is definitely a new balancing of priorities that results in a functionally much better marriage than before. This is maybe a subtle difference since it wasn't like she wouldn't "give me permission" when I used to ask, but it matters to me.

For me, I decided to R because I did love my WH and wanted to keep my family intact. And I got carried away with the idea that our marriage 2.0 can be even better. But as I journey on reconciliation I am tormented by the memories of them together. The intimate times they shared. The emotional connection they had. And how my WH could not let the AP go. I also started wondering if he’s cheated before and I just didn’t know! I mean he hid this affair fairly well so who is to say this was his first time? And what if he’s still holding onto the memories and love for the AP. And so on and so forth. So many questions that refuse to leave me alone.

I have a hard time keeping all the stories here straight, so I apologize if I'm asking again or if you've made it clear. There are some actionable areas for you.

In terms of being tormented by memories and mind movies, there is stuff out there, and IC might help (maybe EMDR?).

As it relates to prior cheating, the polygraph is a great tool if you have doubts. A complete written timeline and a few questions are common.

"Is the timeline complete and accurate without intentional omission?" "Have you ever cheated aside from this?" and maybe a third powerful question to put something to bed you are concerned about. Now, polygraphs themselves are not totally certain, but there is a lot of leverage to be gained from them. I admit that I did not hold my wife's feet to the polygraph fire at the end of the day, but that is because I gained adequate assurance through other investigative means that I have the full story.

…their marriage is now better

A profound nugget I remember from years ago s that there are three entities in a marriage; the husband, the wife, and the marriage itself. All three need attention.

This also implies that each can be in their own state of being better or worse. It is definitely possible for the marriage to be better, but the betrayed spouse to be worse. For the marriage to be open and honest, but the betrayed spouse to still be in pain..

I'm really careful with the word "happily". I'm happy and reconciled. I'm happy that I have reconciled. I'm happy that I'm with my wife. I think the problem with "happily" is that it's an adverb. It's how you go about doing something.

This made me smile. Yes, I'm happy and reconciled, but a lot of the reconciliation part wasn't great, and I sure wasn't happy about it. I will likely think of this distinction going forward. It kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who hates working out - HATES it - but begrudgingly acknowledges that it makes every part of her life and mental/physical health better, and so to her credit, she regularly laces up her running shoes and heads off to the gym or to spin class or whatever on the condition that she will (charmingly) complain about it every chance she gets.