SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

How do we know that developing layers of understanding about underlying marital issues isn't backsliding in disguise? How do we have those conversations without validating newbies who grab at any opportunity to blame their cheating on flaws in the marriage, or triggering BS who think we're blaming them for the affair?

Yep. Affairs do not happen in a vacuum. Nothing excuses the choices someone makes to cheat. But, when you are working on R, some of that context has to be looked at and navigated. I am not even saying we are working on R now, but we definitely were and I am still open to it again, like I said before with some major ifs to be answered.

I guess I had become content in understanding our context. That I was basically a doormat. I want to be clear, I would not go as far as say that my husband ever treated me like a door mat, but I think we got along well as he asserted some of his selfishness it wasn't hard for me to go along with it. I acted selfless because I wanted to be seen that way. I also felt like everything was easier that way. So, I have a part of this, but I was accepting the whole enchilada. This revelation of his affair and all the shit I have learned over the past week...Yeah I don't think it was all my enchilada.

His selfishness does not excuse my affair, just like my affair doesn't excuse his. But, the context does matter when trying to figure out where to go or what the truth is.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:50 AM, October 27th (Tuesday)]

Him cheating is obviously making me see him in a different light and I think maybe he didn't take enough responsibility for our pre-A issues.

Which is interesting in and of itself. Even though I knew marriage itself can’t cause someone to choose to go outside the marriage, I still overturned every pre-A rock to see what I could have done better, or consider what I had contributed to the distance in our relationship. Even though SI and most MC insist on a betrayed person not blaming themselves, I think I did anyway. I still do think that while I can’t prevent infidelity, none of us can, I could have been a better partner.

If you both choose to try and R now, I agree the pre-A relationship is a good spot to start, just to find what went well and what needed to be better for both of you.

I guess my previous post did a poor job of agreeing with you. Compromise and “settling” are two unhealthy elements I hope we can all avoid when trying to build/rebuild relationships.

As to figuring out what is real, what was real and can anything be real again?

That’s the work. That mountain you were talking about.

Based on the limited amount of information so far, my guess is he really wanted the marriage to work, so that was real. He really wanted to be kind. He just flat out didn’t address the pain he was feeling and went for the easy validation instead. I think he really wanted the RV travel adventures of the future to be real.

I still contend if the first person someone betrays is themselves and their own best interests — that’s a person who can potentially learn — and be better.

All that and five bucks gets you a cup of coffee. None of my rambling is helpful at this point, but I hope you find the energy to heal and find a way toward what you want.

I think we had "rebuilt" (is that possible when someone is cheating on you? It seems like some of that part was real work we did?)

Maybe some of it was. Personally, I don't think reconciliation and rebuilding a relationship is possible when either spouse is cheating.

Pre-A marital issues and infidelity issues are two very separate things. In over five years here on SI, having read... I don't even know how many tens of thousands of posts... I've yet to identify a single commonality regarding the state of a marriage and a spouse's decision to cheat. Not one. Nothing. Good marriages and bad marriages and everything in between and in the realm of human experience.

My contributions to our pre-A marital issues were mine and mine alone to address, examine, and, if need be, adjust. However, my contribution to my wife's vulnerability to an affair was zero, zip and zilch-nada.

Like any other betrayed spouse, hikingout, I think you're probably apt to examine and rip apart the relationship dynamics that you and your husband have developed over the course of your entire relationship, from the moment you met to the moment you found out, again, that your life has been blown apart.

I guess this is me just trying to figure out what's real.

Yep! Been there and done that! It takes time to process and process and process some more until you're absolutely sick to death of processing. And then, you'll get to process that, too.

ETA: because this really ruffles my feathers...

Affairs do not happen in a vacuum.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. So what? What does that mean, exactly?

[This message edited by Unhinged at 11:42 AM, October 27th (Tuesday)]

HO

I am just now seeing this, I’m so sorry to read this!! You have helped me more than you will know.

I will tell you from my experience the false R was worse than the A. I thought we had a do-over and found I was the only one taking it seriously.

Again so sorry

Hi HO,

I'm incredibly sorry to read this update. I've been away from SI for a few months and I've been feeling much better and more hopeful for the future, so much so that I guess I felt the need to come and poke the wound. For all its merits, SI never fails to provide some more reasons to feel hopeless, fearful and distrustful. Before anyone pounces on that, I'm not criticizing, just stating that that's (part of) how it feels to me.

That being said, I remember how SI was the only thing I could hang on to when my world turned upside down, so I hope it continues to help you and I'm glad you weren't too ashamed to post this.

I see a lot of myself in your thinking process, your logical analysis of the situation and your apparent calm in the aftermath. You once mentioned in one of my threads that, like myself, you had a tendency to get into OCD-like thinking loops and I hope you don't get into a major one like I did. Analizing what's happened is an important part of making some sense of your reality, just don't make the mistake of thinking (even unconsciously) that once you've analized and understood every single little thing, the problem will be resolved or you will have peace of mind. Many things will never make sense, and you will likely fall into the trap of projecting.

You deserve a break, truly. It's absolutely true that affairs don't happen in a vacuum. But you just don't know if and how much your own A contributed to his. At this point, you don't have the full truth. Of course your H is going to latch on to the fact that you had an A! It's great for him to be able to say that "hey, it only happened because I was cheated on, and never would have otherwise", and I suspect it's comfortable for you to take on some of the blame to preserve some of the image you had of him.

I'm not saying you don't know your H, but you don't know the man who was doing all those things, or the man that stands in front of you now. Logic doesn't apply. Don't try to do his work for him. It's going to be hard for you because you're probably wired to take on responsibility, and your role as a WS only reinforced it.

I don't think I'm being very helpful, these were just things that came to mind. I wish you the best, you did not deserve this.

Yeah, I'm not sure what you mean by affairs not happening in a vacuum. I think they happen because of who the person cheating is. My XWH began cheating, he said, partly because what we had was too happy and he didn't feel comfortable with that. Eh, whatever, there is no way for me to ever know exactly what was in his head or when he truly began cheating and he said a great many things, many of them contradictory. I do know without a shadow of a doubt that I was a pretty good partner before and during his cheating. Not so much after, but it is what it is. People cheat because of their own issues. I can blame my XWH for my DDay cheating back, but that's not 100% true. I had a breakdown. I do blame him for that. The breakdown could have led to anything from murder to suicide to breaking everything in the house. It led to cheating. That part is about something in my head. I feel confident in saying that it would not have happened without the shock of DDay. I would not have cheated like he did. I obviously was fully capable of divorcing him when needed, so I feel like I would have gone to that answer if the marriage had just been bad. I had to look at my own issues to work on whatever led to screwing a stranger being my bright idea on DDay.

That he chose to have a long-term affair after you cheated speaks to his own character flaws. It's fair to look at those. Not so great spouses get cheated on all the time. Being a BS doesn't automatically make someone a great partner in retrospect. You should evaluate the entire relationship while you stand at this crossroads. R looks like so much work. You know how hard the work is. I'd look closely at the reality of your marriage before committing to continue it. That's just smart and self-protective.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 12:08 PM, October 27th (Tuesday)]

I’m going to let your comment slide that affairs don’t happen in a vacuum, because I know you are going through in an incredibly difficult time. The fact is you had a different choice than having an affair. Just like your WH did.

However, I know in my case, although I thought I was living in a fairy tale marriage - after dday when I was able to look back at it in an entirely different lens. My WH wasn’t the amazing man I thought he was. He was selfish as hell, I gave and gave and got nothing in return, he was so conflict avoidant that I couldn’t bring up any issue without it turning into a blowout - so I stifled any issue I had. He was not romantic. He was content to let me take of everything and he had the emotional iq and empathy of a gnat. But I thought he was the perfect husband because of my own FOO issues and low self esteem. He is handsome, smart, hard working, funny and a great dad. That’s all I needed to think he was perfect.

Post dday, I saw the all the flaws and demanded more. Maybe that’s where you are. Pre-dday issues exist. He had issues with me that he never mentioned and I have worked on those. Together we have improved our marriage. That’s how R should work.

My thoughts are always with you. (HikingOut)

I guess my previous post did a poor job of agreeing with you. Compromise and “settling” are two unhealthy elements I hope we can all avoid when trying to build/rebuild relationships.

No, it's okay I am not looking for people who agree with me ;-)And that post was correct, with my best interests in mind. I just didn't explain myself well.

I still contend if the first person someone betrays is themselves and their own best interests — that’s a person who can potentially learn — and be better.

Totally agree.

All that and five bucks gets you a cup of coffee. None of my rambling is helpful at this point, but I hope you find the energy to heal and find a way toward what you want.

It IS very helpful.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. So what? What does that mean, exactly?

It only means that there is still a lot of context to dissect.

I said the person having affair is the only one responsible for those choices.

However, the context of the relationship is there and does have to be evaluated. They are separate from each other - the affair and the pre- A marriage, but when you are figuring out how to move forward then what are you doing? You are creating a new marriage or maybe getting a framework for a future relationship. Or for whatever reason you need to understand how it was and how it's going to be moving forward. That means you have to evaluate the context of the other one.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:33 PM, October 27th (Tuesday)]

You once mentioned in one of my threads that, like myself, you had a tendency to get into OCD-like thinking loops and I hope you don't get into a major one like I did.

Not yet. But, I do have that as a tendency. I am trying to manage my anxiety with some of what I learned in counseling before.

Of course your H is going to latch on to the fact that you had an A! It's great for him to be able to say that "hey, it only happened because I was cheated on, and never would have otherwise",

He isn't really saying it that way. He knows enough about me and what I went through that even if he was thinking it that he wouldn't dare use that right now.

and I suspect it's comfortable for you to take on some of the blame to preserve some of the image you had of him.

I think this part is true, but it's slowly lifting.

I'm not saying you don't know your H, but you don't know the man who was doing all those things, or the man that stands in front of you now. Logic doesn't apply.

I agree.

Don't try to do his work for him. It's going to be hard for you because you're probably wired to take on responsibility, and your role as a WS only reinforced it.

This I can say with certainty - I feel actually quite the opposite. I resent that he was cheating while I was doing this work, even though it was valuable to me and really to him. I think he has more resources and knowledge now than I did starting out, he is a big boy and he needs to figure it out. I don't have the energy or even the feeling that I want to help him with this. At the same time, I am hopeful that he does it, and so far I am good with what he is doing. But, we are not even three weeks into this and as you know it's a marathon and not a sprint.

He was selfish as hell, I gave and gave and got nothing in return, he was so conflict avoidant that I couldn’t bring up any issue without it turning into a blowout - so I stifled any issue I had. He was not romantic. He was content to let me take of everything and he had the emotional iq and empathy of a gnat. But I thought he was the perfect husband because of my own FOO issues and low self esteem. He is handsome, smart, hard working, funny and a great dad. That’s all I needed to think he was perfect.

YES. This is what I am talking about. Of course I had different choices, and of course he had different choices. It not happening in a vacuum to me means there is still a lot of contextual things that matter even if they are not responsible for the affair itself.

Some of that context is we were exactly this - what you describe. I was you in that scenario. The day I told this forum it was because I could not hide my contempt for some of this. I made some comments in a thread about how my husband didn't do shit around the house, but if I was doing dishes he might show up and dry hump me from behind. And, now that is all I can see. But, of course he has been way more than that side of him, and when he did those things he was just being funny. It's hard not to paint a lot of it as sinister now. Even when at the time I would be laughing and making crude comments back towards him.

So, this is exactly what I mean, CONTEXT of the relationship, the marriage. Affairs do not happen in a vaccum, and they are not anyone's fault but the person who had them. But, what's there that needs corrected? It's like Old Wounds said about how he still felt he needed to rise to the occasion and be a better partner. That CAN be true and appropriate if you are trying to rebuild a marriage with the person. That can be done without taking responsibility for the affair. My affair is context for his, not an excuse. But, it does have a role in our relationship and our recovery.

Post dday, I saw the all the flaws and demanded more. Maybe that’s where you are. Pre-dday issues exist.

That is exactly where I would say I am.

He had issues with me that he never mentioned and I have worked on those. Together we have improved our marriage. That’s how R should work.

Right, that's all I was referring to. You can work on the issues once they are known with the goal in mind to have a better marriage. That's separate from taking responsibility for the other person's behavior.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:55 PM, October 27th (Tuesday)]

My contributions to our pre-A marital issues were mine and mine alone to address, examine, and, if need be, adjust. However, my contribution to my wife's vulnerability to an affair was zero, zip and zilch-nada.

Like any other betrayed spouse, hikingout, I think you're probably apt to examine and rip apart the relationship dynamics that you and your husband have developed over the course of your entire relationship, from the moment you met to the moment you found out, again, that your life has been blown apart.

Yes, this all describes where I am. This is why I like this place sometimes people can better draw a circle around a place on the map, and have the benefit of hindsite to be able to describe it better. It's useful to know some of these things are common responses.

I have read a long time around here, and H and I had been through this process in an opposite side of the street scenario. It's hard to remember some of it, and relate as much to the early days. Some of these things where I am looking back at our past and realizing some of the responsibility I took for our Pre-A issues was excessive.

I also think that H has applied a lot of effort in the same period of time he was having an affair. It's confusing. He has been more what I wanted in a partner, lover, friend during this time than any other time of our marriage. Changing that over from a place of us rebuilding, to possibly him feeling guilty and covering his tracks. It's so shocking and revolting that I can't fully comprehend it.

That's why if we go back to that place again, where I think we are having this new marriage, it's just hard to imagine being comfortable there. I know, it's early days. But, knowing all I do now about his side of the last 18 months, it's hard to integrate.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:16 PM, October 27th (Tuesday)]

Based on the limited amount of information so far, my guess is he really wanted the marriage to work, so that was real. He really wanted to be kind. He just flat out didn’t address the pain he was feeling and went for the easy validation instead. I think he really wanted the RV travel adventures of the future to be real.

I think this too. Though, at other times I think I am a fool for thinking this is true.

I am trying to reread so I am answering these all out of order.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. So what? What does that mean, exactly?

It only means that there is still a lot of context to dissect.

I said the person having affair is the only one responsible for those choices.

However, the context of the relationship is there and does have to be evaluated. They are separate from each other - the affair and the pre- A marriage, but when you are figuring out how to move forward then what are you doing? You are creating a new marriage or maybe getting a framework for a future relationship. Or for whatever reason you need to understand how it was and how it's going to be moving forward. That means you have to evaluate the context of the other one.

What does any of that have to do with your WH's character? Somewhere inside him, his core values don't meet up with his actions. Somewhere inside him, he has the capacity to say "yes" to cheating and lies. Somewhere inside of him, he lacks the boundaries required to protect his values system. That's all on him. It's nothing to do with the state of the marriage or the fact that you cheated first. It has everything to do with the fact that there's NOTHING inside him which is steadfast enough to stop him.

You cannot be responsible for someone else's beliefs on what's right and what's wrong. No matter what you did, his core values are his. And they're just not there. If they were, he couldn't have looked you in the eye, watched as you wrestled with your own conscience, and still elected to cheat and lie to you for a year and a half.

The guy needs to change... and he won't do that if you're making excuses for him.

((hugs))

I understand that.

I think what I am trying to express is just not clear because I don't really understand it all clearly either. This line of commentary I was making isn't about his choice to cheat. I know 100% his choice to cheat is because of his issues, because I know deeply my decision to cheat was not his fault either.

This is more about feeling like there is an augmented reality that I am trying to wrap my arms around.

This really isn't even about the affair itself at the moment. It's about what happened prior to my affair actually. I was on a path of doing all this work and taking a lot of responsibility and accountability for pre A issues. Which some of them are mine to own and I have worked to change those things in the dynamics of our relationship. But, what I am trying to express and maybe not well is that I think I dismissed any and all of the issues he created or needed to be working on.

I think I was too busy concentrating on how bad of a person I was and how badly I failed (which is true), and I gave him a pass and said our marriage was fine, it was just me not speaking up.

I think that the harsh light I am seeing him under now is making me remember, this is NOT new. He has always been selfish.

I think I made a mistake in the way I said an affair doesn't happen in a vacuum. What I meant by that is just there is so much to look at in the context of our relationship.

This isn't me excusing him, this is me feeling like I may have taken on all of our pre-A issues in my post A work, and I think I overdid it. Does this make sense to anyone at all or am I just losing my mind? This is why I am saying I have to be careful not to rewrite our marriage again here, but there is so much more information about him now that I am trying to integrate it.

And, for what it's worth it doesn't matter if he was an excellent husband, a good husband, an okay husband, or a terrible husband. It doesn't excuse my affair either. It's just I think in all my guilt and shame maybe I rewrote myself as the villian and total problem in our marriage and I am now seeing there is more balance there than that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:39 AM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

I will add though in the last year, I thought he had become a really extraordinary husband. Turns out, I was just looking at him high. So, in many ways, I don't trust that he has worked on himself at all. It's hard to understand, because I have been looking at a man that seemed 100% all in and who was treating me better and more attentive than he had been in a really long time. I think that's why I am thinking back on our marriage prior to infidelity.

Does this make sense to anyone at all or am I just losing my mind?

This makes perfect sense and I could see how you may have done this. In fact, there was once I considered this may have been something you were doing in the past but wasn’t sure how to articulate it at the time.

This is the part of the work that to me is very BS related. Seeing our spouse for exactly who they are showing us they are (and have been) and understanding the ways we ignored these red flags, and the ways we over compromised ourselves to the point of losing ourselves in the relationship.

For me, the part that took looking at myself and the ways I compromised myself revealed a lot of self-abandonment, self-worth, and codependency issues I had had for years. I could see how being a WS and working toward redeeming yourself to your spouse could cause over-compromising. There’s a balance there that could easily be overshot with all the emotions at play.

Everything Maise just said.

This is the part of the work that to me is very BS related. Seeing our spouse for exactly who they are showing us they are (and have been) and understanding the ways we ignored these red flags, and the ways we over compromised ourselves to the point of losing ourselves in the relationship.

Yes, thank you. This is what I am looking at. And, honestly, it's so frustrating for me because I am saying I didn't speak up...AGAIN. But, I guess I just felt like we were moving forward and that he was meeting my needs more now and that we were articulating things at a much deeper level.

It's a shitshow. Total shitshow. I had a vulnerable moment over the weekend in which we started to be intimate. Total disaster. I felt so dead inside after that, like I am just not sure I can do this. I have softened a bit again since then and get bursts where I feel like of course I can that there is a lot worth saving. But then I scour the past and the present and I just don't know.

Maybe it will help if I give some background it might help people see what I am trying to say better. I mean I reread what I have written in the past couple of days, I just don't see how I am excusing him or accepting blame.

So, in many ways, I think our marriage has always been imbalanced. I met him in the earlier part of my twenties and he was in his early 30's. I think for a good portion of our first 10 years together I looked at him as "more adult" than me? He was more experienced, he had children that he was teaching me to handle, he had an ex-wife he was teaching me to handle, he was at a different part of his career than me. We started as FWB, and I never thought we were going to end up with each other. It went on a long time before I even started to catch feelings and when I did it was more of a decision than a "fall for" sort of situation. We have always had an intense physical connection and it made sense to explore the rest.

But, because of that there was an underlying feeling of him having an upper hand. One I don't think he was even cognizant of. I don't know if anyone remembers me writing this but I had said when he was going to divorce me that I wasn't worried about being able to support myself, what I was worried about is what I would revert to. I was a hermit when we met other than to go out with coworkers on the weekend to a bar, I didn't know a lot of people I was a transplant to my area. I watched a lot of TV and had a lot of unhealthy habits such as sleeping the weekend away and such.

I think secretly I always felt like I built my life around him and he made me more than I would have been otherwise. He has a normal family, I have a poor white trash kind of family. In most ways I think I always looked at him as my better half. So, I always worked very hard to "earn" him. And, I did so to my exhaustion, and really it had gotten to where it was taken for granted and so I felt like I had to keep topping myself. It was all very unhealthy.

But, when I look back on our marriage, there has always been an imbalance. I believed in him more than I believed in myself.

Now, I can only believe in myself. And, to be honest, I am just not sure where that puts him. It's going to be an uphill battle for him to get me to believe in him again. And, I don't have a lot of confidence that's what's going to happen because to do that I think he would need to believe in me. And, I destroyed that aspect as well. I don't know if I could have climbed that mountain if I didn't see him as something to win. I am glad I climbed it, in the end the person who won in some ways is me (I know that's a weird thing to say but I just mean that I do get to take what I learned forward).

But, that's the complexity of this, somehow we both have to learn to believe in each other again and so while Mrs. Walloped mentioned Everest, I think we climbed a smaller mountain than that and this is our Everest. But, I am now a stronger, better climber with better equipment. Is he? I don't think so?

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:44 AM, October 28th (Wednesday)]

to do that I think he would need to believe in me. And, I destroyed that aspect as well. I don't know if I could have climbed that mountain if I didn't see him as something to win.

speaking from my experience and feelings toward my WS, the progression on my end isn’t about believing in her. In fact, believing in her and holding hope was something I had to let go to be able to show up for myself properly. As long as my work was tied to her I wasn’t getting anywhere. It had to be about me.

This same journey goes for her. I think in some ways it’s been more challenging for her because she keeps thinking that winning me is the end goal. I’m not the end goal, her health and her life is. Her ability to be whole and happy and healthy on her own is. Once we can both lean into ourselves and have that be the goal (and achieve it) then we can reassess and see where we stand from there.

Even in divorce I’ll know I did my part for myself and feel confident in knowing that I wouldn’t end up in a very codependent dysfunctional relationship again. That’s the beauty of doing it for yourself.