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Iamjack,

You wrote, I want intimate moments with her, I want cuddling, I want kissing, not just in our bed but outdoors. I know I may be comparing but I don't even ask for sex, cuddling and kissing would be fine by me ! But I know if I don't initiate she won't either.

What you wrote stood out to me. I get that, my Ws affair with OM1 killed kissing with me, we had sex, but never again passion, I just didn't understand until decades later, I always thought I could love my W back into loving me.

I am jealous when I see people in the movies or in public kissing I want my lips to tingle again like they used to.

One of the difficult things I deal with is the all the sex I never had with my W when in fact she was physically capable. But that fact that she was physically capable means that she has lied to me about why she didn't want to have sex with me or gave me devalued sex and she knew it.

I'm not sure if it's been asked but did you get tested for STDs.

Also what consequences did you rain down on OM, exposure, confrontation, castration, etc.

survrus

What you wrote stood out to me. I get that, my Ws affair with OM1 killed kissing with me, we had sex, but never again passion, I just didn't understand until decades later, I always thought I could love my W back into loving me.

I am jealous when I see people in the movies or in public kissing I want my lips to tingle again like they used to.

I hear you. I get the same feeling, especially when I see older people than us kissing or hugging with intensity. I say to myself : "WTF ??"

One of the difficult things I deal with is the all the sex I never had with my W when in fact she was physically capable. But that fact that she was physically capable means that she has lied to me about why she didn't want to have sex with me or gave me devalued sex and she knew it.

I get what you're saying. But as for my wife, wanting to and being able to aren't the same thing. When they don't want to, either they'll say it or they'll find any excuse they can think of. From what I've seen (and not only from my WS) when a woman does want to have sex, she's a bulldozer...

I'm not sure if it's been asked but did you get tested for STDs.

As I said, it has been almost 3 years, so yes of course, I ordered her to get tested from day one, and I did too.

Also what consequences did you rain down on OM, exposure, confrontation, castration, etc.

Not sure what's the point of this question. I used to hold a lot of anger towards him, but I don't anymore. He's just a sad loser in a shitty house, in the shitty neighbourhood of a shitty town, ugly, bald and fat, divorced because he cheated on his ex wife. He didn't force my wife, she used him to get what she needed to fill her emotional / mental emptiness at that time. He was expendable, that's all.

[This message edited by iamjack at 9:19 AM, Friday, May 5th]

Sir, It is never too late to walk away.

Iamjack,

You wrote, Not sure what's the point of this question.

By delivering consequences to OM you are also setting an example to your WW that you will respond. Does not need to be done in anger can be as impersonal as a judge sending someone to prison in the name of justice.

Did your WW write out a timeline subject to a polygraph

Iamjack, I think the real answer here is that you are "staying together" but are not truly "reconciled".

People who are reconciled may have triggers or setbacks, but it appears that you are simply are both simply "white knuckling", which means you are both holding on for dear life, so hard that your knuckles have turned white.

But that ain't the same as reconciliation.

I am willing to accept, as my therapist tells me, that she was another person at the time of the adultery.

When it comes to cheating, therapists are frequently full of platitudes that they use to try and comfort people, seemingly to "move them along" to a "healthy place".

First of all, she was not a "different person". She was a different person with him, because she wanted to do whatever she was doing with him, and she wanted to do whatever she did or didn't do with you.

Yes, yes, new relationships and all that, but put away this idea that she was some other fake person. She really was/is the person who had all the motivation to happily and willingly do what she did with him.

And it sounds like you in your heart of hearts, and in your mind as well, you can't really swallow that, no matter how many junk explanations your therapist or your wife try to sell you.

***

You say you are happily married and reconciled.

If your best friend told you they felt that way about their wife and marriage all the time, would you consider that friend to be happily married? Would you consider him or her to be reconciled?

***

Now let me take it a step further. What if you expressed the way you feel to her, the things that you wish she would do, and she started doing those things for you - that she did for him, presumably without him asking? Would it be good enough for you? For her to have to be told to do those things for you that she willingly did for him?

I am going to guess, no it would not be good enough. I am guessing it would not relieve your burden.

Frankly, from what you wrote, this is eating at you constantly. I know the feeling. It's miserable.

Like somebody else wrote above, you are allowed to walk away.

***

I would suggest that if you are not ready to call it quits outright, then take some time away from her to see how you really feel. Just be in your own life, without a therapist - or your wife - trying to explain away her shitty behavior.

Sometimes shitty behavior is just that - shitty behavior. You are not required to accept half-assed love from your wife. Take some time for yourself and see if you really want to continue with her.

Good luck.

Am I understanding your post correctly, in that you married your WW after Dday? Threw a big party, etc.

I’m not sure there are many who would marry their WP after a three year highly sexualized A. What was your thought process here?

The A lasted 6 months. The physical part lasted 5 months, with them fucking approx 1-2 times a week on average (because there were weeks when they couldn't see each other, for example when we were away with the kids, etc) 20+ times total. She begged me for R after me having dumped her. I offered her R, we tried and I observed the changes for almost 2 years before considering mariage. She put in a lot of efforts, quit smoking and drinking, became a better spouse (she really had been a really shitty partner for almost a decade when I think about it)

Now I'm more feeling she's just going with the flow and some bad habits are coming back. So this kinda puzzles me. But I'm putting myself first now, I'm not afraid to go away.

As it has been said here, I think I need to focus on myself, my kids, my social life. Things started to change since I hit the gym a few years ago, and I'm getting glances from girls much more than 3 years ago (I was miserable and fat at the time) this pumps my self esteem a lot. I'm not saying I will go and cheat on my wife, this just disgusts me and I'm not that type of person. But just knowing there may be many women willing to give me the love, sex and passion I craved for so long helps me to stop tolerating my wife's bullshit.

[This message edited by iamjack at 9:39 AM, Sunday, May 7th]

One aspect of a highly sexual A (or, at least, an A that was more sexual than the marriage) that the WW often overlooks is the following. The WW will often say, after Dday, stuff along the lines of "the sex didn't mean that much to me" or "the sex was transaction, I was going through the motions but didn't get a lot of pleasure from it" or "that wasn't the real me blowing that guy in the park, it was as if I was somebody else". The point being, the WW's comments go to her inner feelings about the A sex, usually in a minimizing way to justify choosing to not put out with as much brio for her BH.

However, regardless of her inner feelings, it is factually true that, while doing those things, she invested considerable time and energy into giving the AP sexual pleasure. She knew this was what she was doing. In fact, it was her intention, because giving the AP sexual pleasure was her way of getting whatever kibbles she thought she was getting from the AP. She weighed the costs and the benefits and decided that the investment was worth it.

In a low-key way, flirting with other men socially is a species of the same thing. She enjoys the male gaze, and she knows that stroking their egos is a way to attract it.

Where this breaks down for you is that she does not direct this sort of energy to you. Ergo, there isn't anything she wants from you that would lead her to do this.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 12:25 PM, Monday, May 8th]

Butforthegrace

One aspect of a highly sexual A (or, at least, an A that was more sexual than the marriage) that the WW often overlooks is the following. The WW will often say, after Dday, stuff along the lines of "the sex didn't mean that much to me" or "the sex was transaction, I was going through the motions but didn't get a lot of pleasure from it" or "that wasn't the real me blowing that guy in the park, it was as if I was somebody else". The point being, the WW's comments go to her inner feelings about the A sex, usually in a minimizing way to justify choosing to not put out with as much brio for her BH.

However, regardless of her inner feelings, it is factually true that, while doing those things, she invested considerable time and energy into giving the AP sexual pleasure. She knew this was what she was doing. In fact, it was her intention, because giving the AP sexual pleasure was her way of getting whatever kibbles she thought she was getting from the AP.

In a low-key way, flirting with other men socially is a species of the same thing. She enjoys the male gaze, and she knows that stroking their egos is a way to attract it.

Where this breaks down for you is that she does not direct this sort of energy to you. Ergo, there isn't anything she wants from you that would lead her to do this.

Yes, I very much get your point. That's funny you mention the justifications, 3 years ago when I had just discovered the A and was bombarding her of questions, I got all of them, literally. I even got some that made me laugh out loud nervously : "We didn't do anything obscene or degrading" (what a relief ! And here I was, thinking you were fucking him behind my back ) and another one, as stupid as the first one : "All we did was pretty basic, we only did the same 3 positions". Oh you mean, the ones we usually did ? Now THAT's a relief, thank you so much babe !

Really, as of now I really don't care about the justifications she gave at the time. I know she craved sex with him, I know she invented everything to minimize the willpower she was putting into getting in his bed. They were both complete fuck-ups at that time (although I'm not sure he changed) and I don't care about them anymore.

What I mean is : I'm working on myself so as to be an attractive person again. That's a new phase for me. I can feel it's already having some effects on the looks I get from girls. I will continue working on myself and my social circle, and spend less time with her. As long as she doesn't interfere with my personal goal of becoming a more attractive, better person, this is fine.

To other posters, I would like to add a quote from a great post I read from the "Positive reconciliation stories" pinned in this forum :

Some members here definitely helped, but I feared telling my story because many members were beyond hurtful. I vowed to myself to report how my story turned out when I felt I was healed. I felt I owed it to the ones here who did help me and to push back on some of the absolutes so many hurting spouses spew. I don’t believe them to be helpful to anyone, ever.

Just a quick reminder that, as Edie said a few posts back, nobody here has a crystal ball and knows what the future will be, there is never only one truth...

[This message edited by iamjack at 4:30 PM, Sunday, May 7th]

I'm working on myself so as to be an attractive person again.

I urge you to reframe that. Working to be attractive to others is the same crap that WSes do: seek validation from others.

The only person you need to attract is yourself. The only person you can be is yourself.

If you like going to the gym, great. If you go to the gym in hope of improving your health, great. But if the gym is usually a chore you want to avoid, find something else.

Look at Carlo Ponti. He almost lost his partner to Cary Grant, insiders say, but he's no beauty. His partner sure is, though.

Get into and stay in touch with your wants, needs, likes, dislikes, strengths, weaknesses - be yourself. Choose to like, love, and nurture yourself, because you're all you've got. If you've got a hole inside you, no one else will be able to fill it.

If you pretend to be someone you're not, you'll have to stifle yourself. If you are who you are, you're almost certain to attract potential partners who like the real you.

I really hate to see anyone stifle themself ... that triggers me.

Sorry to get back to answering your question so late, iamjack.

My husband divorced me after he discovered my affair with an ex. Then we remarried 4 years later and had a couple of kids.

Remarriage was a mistake; we are miserable and incompatible and I wish every single day I hadn’t gotten back together with him because I felt guilty about the A.

But we have two kids, one of them with significant special needs, so we’re trapped. Hence, remarried but not in reconciliation. Just in "staying together for the kids"….new acronym—STFTK??

Edited to add: we haven’t had sex in over 4 years, the thought repulses me, so there’s that too.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 6:35 PM, Sunday, May 7th]

I’m going back to the fact that you married your WW after day, after having all the details of her A. I’m no psychologist, but to me, this should be the focal point for you plus a lot of therapy.

There is so much to unpack psychologically in that you married your WW after being cheated on that extensively, in a highly sexualized A, and for that long a period of time.

Most men simply would have walked away. You didn’t, and in fact gave your WW a huge reward in a big festive wedding, a house remodel, trips, etc. Subconsciously are you not beating yourself over this?

This is not criticism or judgement. I’m simply pointing out that more likely than not a lot of what you’re going through right now stems from your decision to marry snd reward, snd you’re subconsciously beating yourself up for not having walked away, being so weak in not walking away, the emasculation that everyone in the world knows you were cheated on yet you married, rewarded, etc.

I think you get my point. It’s been three years since and this is all now coming to the forefront. Perhaps the sex issue is in reality a red herring for the larger issues. You no doubt have a much tougher time than most in dealing what you’re currently experiencing. First, you have to deal with the cheating itself, the sex, she wanted it, the emasculation, feeling of rejection, not being treated well in the relationship for ten years snd then she cheats, etc.

Add on to that the fact you still married her. Perhaps you’re feeling latent regret in doing so, are beating yourself up for not having walked away snd are now suffering the consequences now for not doing so, etc. And again, is the sex the only issue, the salient issue, or is it the trigger for these two large issues combined.

This is a lot! More than the average BH. My suggestion is to double down on unpacking all of this in therapy. In the meantime you can start to reclaim your agency by utilizing all of the strategies recommended here. However, serious therapy is the biggest thing here in my opinion given the magnitude of these two significant issues you need to address.

I’m going back to the fact that you married your WW after day, after having all the details of her A. I’m no psychologist, but to me, this should be the focal point for you plus a lot of therapy.

There is so much to unpack psychologically in that you married your WW after being cheated on that extensively, in a highly sexualized A, and for that long a period of time.

Most men simply would have walked away. You didn’t, and in fact gave your WW a huge reward in a big festive wedding, a house remodel, trips, etc. Subconsciously are you not beating yourself over this?

This is not criticism or judgement. I’m simply pointing out that more likely than not a lot of what you’re going through right now stems from your decision to marry snd reward, snd you’re subconsciously beating yourself up for not having walked away, being so weak in not walking away, the emasculation that everyone in the world knows you were cheated on yet you married, rewarded, etc.

I think you get my point. It’s been three years since and this is all now coming to the forefront. Perhaps the sex issue is in reality a red herring for the larger issues. You no doubt have a much tougher time than most in dealing what you’re currently experiencing. First, you have to deal with the cheating itself, the sex, she wanted it, the emasculation, feeling of rejection, not being treated well in the relationship for ten years snd then she cheats, etc.

Add on to that the fact you still married her. Perhaps you’re feeling latent regret in doing so, are beating yourself up for not having walked away snd are now suffering the consequences now for not doing so, etc. And again, is the sex the only issue, the salient issue, or is it the trigger for these two large issues combined.

This is a lot! More than the average BH. My suggestion is to double down on unpacking all of this in therapy. In the meantime you can start to reclaim your agency by utilizing all of the strategies recommended here. However, serious therapy is the biggest thing here in my opinion given the magnitude of these two significant issues you need to address.

Dude67, thanks for sharing your point of view. But as The Dude would say : that's just like, your opinion man

Truth is you don't know my story. You only know what I've said so far. And I assume you D'ed. After having observed my wife's behavior, and the efforts she made to make the R work, I had two choices, either leave her or marry her. The decision to marry her was based on her efforts but not only on them. Marriage is also a contract, and this was an occasion to put a lot of things in order (we don't call it "prenups" here, but we did a specific contract that secures me financially should we be heading into a D).

So, you know, I'm not stupid. I know if we D now, I'll be much better off than if I had just dumped her when I discovered the A. I know this, she knows this.

Another thing is that everything I did for us and for our home was also for our kids : I want them to have a great home and enjoy the best I can provide them, even if it's just for a few years.

Finally, I already did extensive therapy and it did really good. I don't think about what she did as much as before, the triggers were there for the reasons I mentioned earlier in the post. Some members here understood and gave great insights already.

[This message edited by iamjack at 12:54 PM, Tuesday, May 9th]

I’m not sure where you read that I recommended divorce. I mentioned no such thing. I recommended renewed therapy, and still stand by that recommendation.

The things I mentioned that might be going on have to do with your subconscious, which is why I recommended therapy. Being subconscious, this might go way deeper than the vanilla sex issue. Obviously, you would have no idea they’re going on in because it’s part of your subconscious.

And, you can’t underestimate the latent affect of any of these subconscious contributors, as you’re posting three years down the line. Something got you here to this point right now. Could it be latent trauma from her A, aside from the sex? Of course it could, but you would need renewed therapy to explore that potential.

You said you only had two choices- leave of marry. Did you not have a third choice to simply remain as partners and see if/how you would be affected down the road? You’re now down that road, three years later. As I said, is it simply arbitrary happenstance that you’re posting now about the sex issue, three years later?

You also said you married to set up a nice home for the kids and that you protected yourself in case of divorce. That’s fine, but is that the best reason to marry in the wake of an A. Perhaps that needs to be re explored in therapy as well.

I’m not arguing with you. I’m trying to help. What I’m saying is I recommend you return to therapy snd re explore her A and it’s affect on you. Therapy now, three years later, with the sex issue being a major trigger, will not be the same therapy you had in the immediate wake of her A. That’s all I’m saying.

As we say here. Take the advice you want snd leave the rest.

We had a big fight last week, while we were away on a late honeymoon (as I said earlier we married, 2 years after the A)

I'm still having difficulties coping with her lack of physical touch (she's neither touchy nor demonstrative, never was, never has been even with her former LTR boyfriend (I know the guy), the exception to the rule being the AP (or so it seems, I only have the texts, I wasn't there) I'm currently in IC to deal with my feelings of rejection, and the lack of confidence I have in my appearance, since childhood, and I took a pretty severe hit when I discovered the A and read all these messages.

So last week while we were in a quiet spot on a beach, I tried to cuddle, and caress her, but she rejected me again because "we were not alone and she wasn't doing anything like that in public". Truth is we were almost alone, there was just a young couple 50 meters away that could see us but they were looking the other way, minding their own business. And anyway I would never have jumped on her to have sex, I was just trying to turn her on and she knows that... I didn't pick up on her phrase "no way I'm doing anything like that in public" because I thought that would probably would not have ended well (since I have pretty vivid images of what she did and where she did it with the AP: almost only public places, where anybody walking by could have seen them...). So I just ignored her reaction and went for a nap.

That night, I gently came near her in bed, clearly stating that I wanted to have sex with her. And, well, she didn't say no, but the lack of desire was so obvious that I gave up (I'm not a dog, if I don't feel passion I'd rather masturbate, "at least it's sex with someone I love" — Woody Allen). I didn't make a whim like I used to before the A, I didn't get angry, I just moved to something else and we watched a stupid TV show that she liked. But then, when the show was finished, she moved towards me, saying she wanted to have sex with me.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but this really made me lose it. I said "Really ? I'm number two ? Sex with me is okay, but it comes after the TV show ? Is this how you see me ? Is this what I am ? Fuck no, I don't want to have sex with you, not like that !"

She finally agreed she was out of line and she shouldn't have done that. But this triggered me so much a lot of things came out, I expressed a lot of anger, dissatisfaction, on sex, on desire, on everything I've written here so far and we had this fight. It was violent, loud, and I said ugly things (but true), she cried and screamed as well as I did.

Since that fight things cooled down, and she changed a bit, and she seems more eager to touch me or come to me. But I'm pretty sure this won't last long. I'm seeing my therapist again this week, I've got a lot of stuff to discuss...

[This message edited by iamjack at 3:53 PM, Tuesday, May 23rd]

As I said in my last post, the AP got all the things that you want now as he expected it. The relationship was new, so things were more exciting, but she was looking to please him. You are being treated like this because you let yourself as your expectations are low. She continues to call all of the shots, and you remain passive

So last week while we were in a quiet spot on a beach, I tried to cuddle, and caress her, but she rejected me again because "we were not alone and she wasn't doing anything like that in public". Truth is we were almost alone, there was just a young couple 50 meters away that could see us but they were looking the other way, minding their own business. And anyway I would never have jumped on her to have sex, I was just trying to turn her on and she knows that... I didn't pick up on her phrase "no way I'm doing anything like that in public" because I thought that would probably would not have ended well (since I have pretty vivid images of what she did and where she did it with the AP: almost only public places, where anybody walking by could have seen them...). So I just ignored her reaction and went for a nap.

She got exactly what she wanted, and you were left to stew. At this point after the rejection you get up, start packing your crap, and head back to the hotel and tell her you will see her later
[

That night, I gently came near her in bed, clearly stating that I wanted to have sex with her. And, well, she didn't say no, but the lack of desire was so obvious that I gave up (I'm not a dog, if I don't feel passion I'd rather masturbate, "at least it's sex with someone I love" — Woody Allen). I didn't make a whim like I used to before the A, I didn't get angry, I just moved to something else and we watched a stupid TV show that she liked. But then, when the show was finished, she moved towards me, saying she wanted to have sex with me.

So you are on your honeymoon and she rejects you again. Do you think she ever told her AP that he needed to wait until she finished watching a tv show for sex? Not only that, it was a show she liked. Get up, turn off the tv, or head down to the lobby or another room.

Everyone of her emasculation techniques should be countered immediately with a negative reaction by you. Not later, right at that time. If it causes conflict, so be it. She has had years of walking all over you. It’s something she learned, that needs unlearning. It’s great you finally brought it to a head, but it was too long in coming. You want her to be more affectionate, she may not have it in her. If she can’t be affectionate on your honeymoon, when will she?

You are being treated like this, because that’s what you know. I know it hurts to bring it up, but remind her that you are her husband. Your treatment shouldn’t be less than what she had with her AP.

Stand up for yourself

Dear waitedwaytoolong,

Thank you for your insights. I thought being able to move on after a rejection on her part was me acting as an adult (as opposed to making a whim like I used to before, like a child). She even told me when we went our way through R, she liked the better man I had become, the "grown man". Yet if I understand correctly, I'm still being tricked into doing what she wants ant let her get away with it.

She got exactly what she wanted, and you were left to stew. At this point after the rejection you get up, start packing your crap, and head back to the hotel and tell her you will see her later

That's the problem here : we were on a desert beach in like a 2 hour drive from the hotel, and I was the only one driving the rental. I couldn't just leave her in the middle of nowhere, in an foreign country, that would be very cruel just to make a point wouldn't it ?

How else can I make her understand I am not OK she's not comfortable with me touching her when we're alone on the beach ? (and please don't say "tell her" I already did that, multiple times, in arguments and in calm peaceful conversations...)

And while I think about it, when I talk about the intimate moments they had outdoors that she swore she was willing to have with me : HOW THE F can these moments happen if a/ she does not offer them and b/ when the setup is right, she's "uncomfortable" ??

You're right on something : when you say "if she can’t be affectionate on your honeymoon, when will she?". And thats what made me lose my mind later that night. Thinking she can reject me even on what's supposed to be a sexy, romantic, pleasurable and egoistic week together ??

"You are being treated like this, because that’s what you know" : and because I may very well be an idiot...

[This message edited by iamjack at 7:03 PM, Tuesday, May 23rd]

You are far from an idiot. You are a caring guy trying to have an adult relationship with her acting like a child. She acts like a 2 year old. Everything on her terms. My point of the packing up is that you need to make a statement either verbally or with action when you are being treated like this. Think about how you deal with a two year old. If they try to touch a hot stove, or pull a dogs tail, you react immediately. You don’t wait a couple of hours to have a discussion. You certainly don’t sweep it under the table. This is what she wants.

The only time she seems to get it is when you have finally reached the end of your chain. The problem is the chain is way too long. I would sit her down and tell her things need to change. I imagine as with most waywards, they at some point in wanting to reconcile promise that they will spend the rest of their lives making it up to you. Remind her of that.

She should be thanking her lucky stars you married her after her affair.

The other thing is she may just not really love you more than just as a security blanket.

Until you demand more, this will be a permanent situation. She needs to realize how close she is to losing you.

Hey IamJack,

"You are being treated like this, because that’s what you know" : and because I may very well be an idiot...

I think Waited covered it well, I just wanted to also agree -- you're not an idiot.

In my R, I told my wife to imagine if she used only HALF the energy on her A on our M, how amazing our relationship COULD be.

It takes a massive amount of thought and energy to organize a hidden life and then be all in for the AP.

My wife now puts in more effort into the M than ever and I return that energy and care.

And, we all deserve to be loved how we need and want to be loved, without needing to demand it from our partners. No one wants to be with someone who doesn't want us the same way we want them.

You just need to tell her about the relationship you want (an equal partner who respects your boundaries) and she can either help you make the M stronger and better or you can find someone who will.