SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Don’t want to do that? Then you either don’t see that reimbursement money as being rightfully yours…or you think you have to pay for a sin you didn’t commit.

It's the second one. I am so ashamed of WH. And I've only tangentially written about this but there's so much in his behavior that seems to originate in what I'm starting to think is maybe deeply embedded misogyny. All of his life bitterness seems to be directed at his mom, and that spilled over onto me as if he's punishing me for his mom not loving him the way he wanted to be loved. He withholds really serious and necessary info for me as a way of keeping control over me, to be above me, to be the one pulling the strings of what should be a marriage of two equals. And it gets this control through the use of other women's bodies. He's admitted to me that he uses withholding information as a form of control, but denies that any of this is woman-centered. I don't believe him. I think it is. And I think that the reason he chose sex workers even when he had what sounds like multiple OW and a wife all simultaneously in his life and catering to him is that he felt above the sexworkers from the start. Like he was in the power position. It never had to be reciprocal.

I think right now I want to make amends for him. I want his need for control flipped to something positive for women who either are escaping from control, or who need to have their own power and autonomy. Maybe this is just another of the rollercoaster stages, I don't know. Every couple of weeks I get obsessed with a new aspect of what I'm dealing with and I think it's really me who needs to feel like I have control over my life right now. And making him repay that money - really FACE the spreadsheet with the dollar values that reflect his psychology, his endless pathological needs, his secret hoard of information completely exposed in a legal document as if it's saying: THIS is the magnitude of my need to control and take from others! - feels right now like it's so necessary and just??

It's not like any of this will happen in the near future, I don't think, so it's just an idea I'm hanging on to as a way of pulling myself forward.

I love the ideas of human trafficking organizations and also legal funds for women who can't afford attorneys in divorce or law suits.

And maybe I'll change my mind, I don't know, I just need something positive to think about, I feel like I'm drowning in the awful things right now.

I so admire you. In the midst of all this pain you have zeroed in on exactly why your husband is the way he is and I don’t believe for a minute he will ever change. It’s his modus operandi and always has been. This book is kind of expensive because it’s $14 on Kindle and more than that as paperback but you need to get MEN WHO HATE AND THE WOMEN WHO LOVE THEM by Susan Forward. In it you will find almost exactly the same behavior that you see in your husband. I read this book in a used bookstore years ago by working there. I found tons of used books that have a lot of information and are still in print. The next book I recommend is GAMES PEOPLE PLAY because even though it’s an old book is still in print because it hits so many behaviors. These are mind games that people play with their innocent victims and you will probably find yourself and your husband in there somewhere. I think both of those books are pretty powerful in explaining how we get ourselves, in all innocence, involved with a damaged human being.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 3:08 PM, Friday, November 18th]

I appreciate your considering women who don't have the means for attorneys. I see so many people express that they can't afford counsel on this site, when they desperately need it. That need exists a bit below the bar of domestic abuse and sex trafficking, so they fall through the cracks.

But I do also like the idea of spending some on nurturing and uplifting activities for yourself and your son.

Of course I know this is not real money yet

One of the reasons that this thread is so very valuable is the stunningly eloquent articulation of so many of the issues surrounding this particular type of WH and the way relationships that involve them tend to function. Over and over I read things that are such a clear description of my life even though I’ve never been able to articulate them quite so perfectly, and you, dear Sigyn, have written many of them, but so have so many other wise people on this thread. It’s really a gift to have such a community of people who really get it.

there's so much in his behavior that seems to originate in what I'm starting to think is maybe deeply embedded misogyny. All of his life bitterness seems to be directed at his mom, and that spilled over onto me as if he's punishing me for his mom not loving him the way he wanted to be loved. He withholds really serious and necessary info for me as a way of keeping control over me, to be above me, to be the one pulling the strings of what should be a marriage of two equals. And it gets this control through the use of other women's bodies. He's admitted to me that he uses withholding information as a form of control, but denies that any of this is woman-centered. I don't believe him. I think it is. And I think that the reason he chose sex workers even when he had what sounds like multiple OW and a wife all simultaneously in his life and catering to him is that he felt above the sexworkers from the start. Like he was in the power position. It never had to be reciprocal.

This all over the place. This is my WH in so many ways. He lacks your WH’s assertiveness in pursuing so many relationships, but the lack of respect for women, the secrecy, the information guarding and covert decision-making as power, the massive veiled resentment behind so many of his actions, the need to feel superior, and yeah, ultimately all originating from bitterness and anger at his mom. My WH deliberately chose to gravitate towards women that he felt superior to. THere were so many relationships that I felt were borderline inappropriate that he would explain away in a kind of "as if" way: she’s so screwed up; she’s a complete mess; etc. He would listen to them for hours about their screwed up relationships, their disastrous lives, and feel smug, but he would also feel powerful, wise, superior. They looked up to him, and he. Looked down on them. Perfect. Ultimately, the woman that he had an A with was a completely screwed up mess too. It gave him power and control.

He definitely preferred the company of women to the company of men since he felt both competitive with and inferior to men. The only men he liked were similarly those that he felt he had some power position over and those that he didn’t feel were a threat. Yeah, he has issues with relationships and vulnerability. Full stop.

On the other hand, women that he felt were smarter, stronger, out of his league, he resented massively. So where does that leave me. As long as he could manipulate me and control me, it was, I think, the ultimate satisfying revenge in a completely subconscious way. We started out on more equal footing when we were younger, but little by little, I became less manageable and grew in ways that he didn’t like. I stopped being manageable, and his resentment grew. Ultimately, when we had kids was a major dividing line. My priorities (and my overwhelming responsibilities as he focused on himself and how he wasn’t getting as much attention) shifted massively, and behaviors that I had soothed and excused became friction points because they affected the kids. That was when I really became the mom, and that role had well-established behaviors and feelings attached to it for him. None of them were positive.

The life we built didn't deserve to be fake. I wanted that life and I was living that actual life. WH was the outsider, the faker, the imposter. I'm so furious with him and so disgusted and just so so so DONE. Done listening to him twist everything and done having every conversation turn into a competition, arguing over semantics, having the 'why did you do this??' conversation become completely shut down by his proxy battles over marriage counseling.

Yes. Yes. Yes. You have come to what you need 5 years faster than I did. I made the decision not to engage in those conversations that turned into competitions, semantic wrangling, blameshifting, deflecting, false equivalencies, and endless detours and distractions onto whatever grievance he wanted to use to try to manipulate me. I made that decision hundreds of times only to get caught off guard again because there was something that had to be raised because it involved the kids or finances or something. Whoever said that they are masters of manipulation and mind-fucking games was so right. How did we live so long without realizing how much we were getting played and gaslighted and disrespected? How did we convince ourselves that we were actually happy with our relationships?

furious with his smugness, his privilege in getting to be what is essentially a forever child with his wife holding down the fort taking care of the family responsibilities as he flew around sampling from various all you can eat sex buffets and then coming home to kiss me and engage in all those totally bullshit pointless conversations about how lucky we were to have a good life and love each other so much. Probably laughing at my ignorance, texting his girlfriends from the bathroom, feeling like king of the world. barf

Raising hand again. As I’ve said before, I ran myself ragged trying to hold things together as the mom of a resentful forever child who complained regularly that he never had time for himself and what HE wanted to do. We (actually it was probably more me, in retrospect) had those "lucky’ conversations regularly. Because I couldn’t believe how fortunate we were to have beautiful, healthy kids, financial stability, a great life, a happy marriage. But why wouldn’t he feel lucky too since he had all of that. . .and more that he got to secretly enjoy and smirk over. My rage and loss over his careless destruction of all that I loved and held most sacred was the ultimate act of petty resentment and disrespect. His destruction of the family that my kids loved and felt safe in is something I’ll never forgive.

But I will say that none of his shitty, dysfunctional behaviors brought him satisfaction or happiness. He felt like a total shit most of the time, I think. Not that he said to himself that he was a total shit. In the ultimate deflection, he told himself and his AP and even me after I found out that i didn’t have time for him, that I didn’t love him enough, that I didn’t make time for him, and any number of other bullshit rationalizations. Like your WH, he knew he was a liar and had articulated the best "technique" for getting away with it. But internally, he knew what he was—hence, his choices of co-conspirators.

I’m guessing that your WH has finally come face to face with his own shittiness too. And like my WH, he’s decided to hide from it completely and double down on not facing it and throwing blame and manipulation in every direction.

You, on the other hand, are becoming truer to yourself. Your strength and emotional intelligence are showing up to protect you and your son. Your integrity is provoking a lot of important revelations that will serve you better going forward. You are discovering that your integrity, compassion, and respect for life must also be offered to yourself. You are awesome.

So you will make a good decision about what to do with the money, ultimately, and that decision will reflect who you are and who are becoming in the fire of this horrible forge. I trust your judgement and you truly can too. You’ve got ALL of this, even though it is horrific and it doesn’t feel like you have it. You do.

And let that anger rage. It’s your friend no matter how uncomfortable it feels. It needed to be heard along with all of the other parts of you that you’ve been holding back. Huge hugs to you, Sigyn.

[This message edited by NowWhat106 at 11:24 PM, Friday, November 18th]

It's sort of ironic (hopefully not in an Alanis Morissette not very ironic way) that WH got himself into this mess (albeit deliberately) partly via an online forum, and you're (hopefully) getting out of it also partly via an online forum. Gotta love the internet. I suppose there is someone for everyone.

Regarding integrity, I found it was easier to believe or tell myself I had it, until I had to actually had to act on it and do something about disrupting my comfortable, albeit, dysfunctional fantasy life and world view. I had committed myself to being a good role model for my children somewhere along their childhood (yes it wasn't something I recognised until after I had children). There was no way I wanted my children to believe I sanctioned FWs behaviour. After we separated (I may have mentioned this before) my 18 yo son, who was sort of troubled at the time for some mysterious reason, came home from brunch with his dad (who suddenly was desperate to spend time with his kids) and gleefully announced "Dad said he was happy he didn't have to be a good role model anymore". What a lowlife. They all are.

I wanted to comment on something you said that resonated with me - something I mention in passing on here from time to time that really has stuck with me more than just about anything else from this whole infidelity mess as it is a daily thing for me:

I'm questioning myself, I'm questioning other people's motives, I'm feeling like everyone is hiding ugliness inside them - even me - and that they have the potential to pop out like a jack in the box from any of us.

I realize that the year+ of false R where the affair went underground and WH lied to me daily/hourly - even after seeing how much the A itself hurt me, and even at times I begged for him to "just tell me" if he wanted to continue the A so I could move on - has scarred me in the way you describe above. I found myself questioning my own father's words about simple things, and good friends who I never questioned before - I wondered what they were hiding - what secrets they carried. I questioned my own motives about things (and sometimes realized they were less pure than I admitted to myself at the time) and I still struggle with that despite being 5 years out. But, but, but...

I think there is something profoundly okay with taking the rose colored glasses off about life in general so long as you don't replace them with something too dark. The thing is, most of us ARE hiding something, maybe from ourselves. It could be as simple as that we really don't like our mother's "famous" casserole, yet we say that we do year after year, so we go to her house and eat it, knowing we will eat what we want later. Maybe it's something bigger and "uglier" - a friend of mine confided to me years ago that sometimes she found herself wishing she did not have children - not because she didn't love them, but because she felt like the compromise she made in her life for them left her feeling empty, like she only lived for them, and that outside of them she had nothing. That she did not feel that way all of the time but she did sometimes and when she did she felt huge wafts of guilt for even feeling that way, even if just for a moment, like she should be stoned or hanged in a public square or something for even thinking such a thing as mothers are supposed to 100% love their children and a good mother would never even think about life without them. But life isn't that simple. We all have regrets and have made bad decisions, behaved badly, and been less than proud of our own actions at some point - or even just wonder what our life would be like if we had made different choices. The difference is being able to tell those who are good at heart and those whose regret about things, to the extent they have them, falls outside of their own self-protection. My friend is not a bad person for thinking about her life without her kids (as a childless woman it was not the first time I have heard a parent say something similar - I think those of us without kids seem safer to say those things to). What she chooses to do with those feelings - how she uses them as an agent for change to allow herself to make her life more fulfilling in general is the lesson from them IMO.

What I realize is after 5 years out from D-day and 2.5 from the end of the false-R train and my acceptance of the demise of our relationship as I knew it before is that we are/I am not perfect. I have bad thoughts. I have lied, numerous times, to someone about something - and not always just lies about my mom's casserole (I hate the thing but I'm just going to continue to eat it as to me the consequence of the decision to tell her just isn't worth it to me), I have done and said (or omitted) far "worse." And I presume other people have done the same at some point in their life. None of us are 100% "trustworthy" in that regard - we all have "secrets" in that we don't share everything we feel 100% of the time, and that applies to things we perceive as good and bad. What I have learned is that is okay. What I am still working on is trusting my own judgment - the new version of it that is willing to accept that no one is exactly who they seem. I am now more skeptical of things, especially those things in which I feel are important to me and I am less willing to blindly trust that someone has my best interest at heart 100% of the time, especially when my best interest may contradict with theirs. That's okay.

For awhile forcing myself to step forward with people, with myself, felt like swimming against the tide. In a way it's easier to stay within a protective shell, sharing little and holding back with others. But part of that, I now realize (but still do not always honor it) is allowing myself to say what I feel more often - letting go of the outcome - the consequences of saying how I feel, and nudging others to do the same. I have several friends who seem far better at doing that than others, and whereas before I found their honesty in setting forth their feelings to be grating - unnecessary - I now have a profound respect for them. The good side of this is that I used to have difficulty saying no, to just about anything. If I was capable of doing something for someone I almost always did it, even to my own detriment. And there is part of me that likes that about myself - that doing things without consideration of my own gain is a behavior I value in myself and that I do not want to wholly change...but, I am more measured now in my decision making. My go-to response to everything isn't an automatic "yes" anymore.

This is my longwinded way of telling you that how you feel in the quote above is not all bad. You can "grow" from it in that you can turn your other relationships into better, more healthy versions of what you have already. Being skeptical isn't all bad - but for a bit you too will likely have to force yourself to move through the desire to pull back completely. You may pay more attention to what people say - how people behave - and just be more aware. All that is fine, and I would say, for some people, very normal. It takes time to navigate all of these feelings, but some of the infidelity aftermath has really benefited me in the long run. You will get there. This too is normal.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 4:53 PM, Monday, November 21st]

You can "grow" from it in that you can turn your other relationships into better, more healthy versions of what you have already. Being skeptical isn't all bad - but for a bit you too will likely have to force yourself to move through the desire to pull back completely. You may pay more attention to what people say - how people behave - and just be more aware. All that is fine, and I would say, for some people, very normal. It takes time to navigate all of these feelings, but some of the infidelity aftermath has really benefited me in the long run.

Agreed ThisIsSoLonely! SOME of the aftermath of infidelity (could have done without PTSD :-) made me stronger with an improved no-nonsense attitude in so many areas of my life. One example, the pre-infidelity me was waaaay too willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. Post infidelity, I'm a firm believer in the Trust But Verify approach. Which is a much more realistic and measured way to deal with the world.

Here's a flippant metaphor - for me the aftermath of infidelity was like putting on the special sunglasses featured in the goofy 1980's John Carpenter sci-fi film "They Live." For those who haven't seen it, or need a refresher, the plot of "They Live" is very simple. A streetwise drifter discovers a pair of sunglasses which allow him to see subliminal messages hidden behind every billboard, newspaper, and TV commercial in the U.S., as well as showing the true faces of the masked skull faced aliens walking among us, intent to dominate our world in secret.

Infidelity forced me to put on the special sunglasses. H's betrayal was so traumatic - for a while I was paranoid. The discovery of the truth - that my Husband was a cheating liar shook my faith in humanity. My home wasn't safe, work didn't feel safe. And potentially friends and family weren't safe because I worried "who knew about this and didn't tell me?" Ultimately, I wasn't safe for ME because naive trust made me an easily exploited sucker. It took infidelity to slap me with the truth. WTF, skull faced aliens walk among us! And, MY HUSBAND IS ONE OF THEM! Is EVERYONE but me a skull faced alien as well?

In time, after navigating the initial urge to withdraw ALL trust, I was able to emerge from my shell and engage people with a new healthier self-protective approach. Sigyn, given time and healing you too will be able to grow/learn from this nightmare. Given the choice I wouldn't go back to the innocent time I naively trusted while H lied to me. Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie. The special infidelity sunglasses are now a tool I appreciate! Not everyone is a skull faced alien, but they do indeed walk amongst us. Better to be aware they exist, and use that knowledge for your benefit. Offer trust only to those who deserve it.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 7:27 PM, Tuesday, November 22nd]

Kind of along the same lines...

Trusting others can be a challenge after infidelity.

To me, trusting myself has been the bigger challenge. I'm an intelligent, intuitive, emotionally mature woman. How on earth did I let this happen to my life? No, I didn't cause his cheating but I wasn't dumb. I knew things were wrong. Way wrong. During false R my gut was screeeeeeeaming at me almost every day. So I know I can trust my gut, but what did I do to protect myself? Not enough apparently. Even prior to infidelity, how on earth did I let myself become so small in this marriage? And as miserable as I was becoming, why did I cling to him after I found out about his affair? Hell looking back on our 30 years I have the same thoughts. Why did I tolerate his selfishness? Why did I put up with his demands I mother him? What in the world was I thinking?

I know of course. But that's my work. Unlearning my conditioning and trusting myself to make better choices for my future.

I think if the trust in me rises, I will feel less skiddish with others. Because I'll know what my boundaries are and what I will or won't tolerate. What "others" do is their business. But if I can trust that I won't tolerate it, that I'll ask for what I need and/or walk when it's not working anymore, what real damage can they do to me?

Something like that anyway.

Yes, to THisIsSoLonely, BoundaryBuilder and TheEnd! Trusting others is very challenging when you’ve been so completely wrong about the person that you thought you knew and could trust more than ANYONE based on years of shared life and experience.

It raises SO many questions and doubts about people in general but also about one’s own judgement. But as TheEnd says, it’s not like I didn’t know things were off. My job now is to figure out why I chose to ignore so many warning signs and never do that again.

Trusting again—well, that’s definitely a bit more challenging. Sadly, when you get those special glasses, there are a lot more people out there with major issues than I ever recognized (or thought about) before. They didn’t change, but I sure did.

I am so ashamed of WH. And I've only tangentially written about this but there's so much in his behavior that seems to originate in what I'm starting to think is maybe deeply embedded misogyny. All of his life bitterness seems to be directed at his mom, and that spilled over onto me as if he's punishing me for his mom not loving him the way he wanted to be loved. He withholds really serious and necessary info for me as a way of keeping control over me, to be above me, to be the one pulling the strings of what should be a marriage of two equals. And it gets this control through the use of other women's bodies. He's admitted to me that he uses withholding information as a form of control, but denies that any of this is woman-centered. I don't believe him. I think it is.

A few things from Sigyn and also NowWhat106 really resonate with me. Its painful to admit as I would have to admit I am totally ashamed of not only my WH but also of myself, for knowing in my gut that this was happening and just sometimes feeling frozen in place whether I was in shock when it would first start happening or just by my WH snapping back into being the "nice guy" with me and saying he was sorry and it would not happen again....but then it would, but also feeling shame by not enforcing my own boundaries way back, by pulling the plug and knowing I needed to walk away from someone who treated me this way. Nothing was ever physical in nature but just this drip, drip, drip of his resentment and bitterness towards me, like "I" was the one who was the cause of all of his unhappiness....but then he would never leave. He would apologize, things would seem to go back to some kind of normal, things swept under the rug, laughter and happiness....and then **BAM** it would all start back up again. Almost like his "only" control in life as perceived by him was to somehow punish me. Or totally sabotage our life together. Whether by affairs or by NOT taking responsibility for things happening at his work but always bitching about it or saying "I don't know what happened" or blaming others when something goes wrong at his work. OR feeling anger or resentment of his own sons, to covert narcissism, just to all things or feelings behind my back. He could just not ever be his authentic self, meaning deep down honesty with me. Honesty about really anything, small or big, if it had to do with something he knew I needed or wanted to feel safe in our relationship, it was always just a battle.

He definitely preferred the company of women to the company of men since he felt both competitive with and inferior to men. The only men he liked were similarly those that he felt he had some power position over and those that he didn’t feel were a threat. Yeah, he has issues with relationships and vulnerability. Full stop.

The above so true as well. ^^^ To the point of feeling resentment almost towards his own sons, who he should feel proud of but in a weird way withholds his attention and the lack of really reaching out to them at all because of it. He just sits around and "waits" for them to reach out, he does not. So sad.

On the other hand, women that he felt were smarter, stronger, out of his league, he resented massively. So where does that leave me. As long as he could manipulate me and control me, it was, I think, the ultimate satisfying revenge in a completely subconscious way. We started out on more equal footing when we were younger, but little by little, I became less manageable and grew in ways that he didn’t like. I stopped being manageable, and his resentment grew. Ultimately, when we had kids was a major dividing line. My priorities (and my overwhelming responsibilities as he focused on himself and how he wasn’t getting as much attention) shifted massively, and behaviors that I had soothed and excused became friction points because they affected the kids. That was when I really became the mom, and that role had well-established behaviors and feelings attached to it for him. None of them were positive.

Much of the above ^^^^^ I can SO relate to. I agree that when we started out it seemed to be on the same footing, but the more he "allowed" me to take over the decision responsibilities because HE did not want to or would not....the more he started to resent me. I grew more in my work dynamic, he acted like he was so proud of me, happy I was succeeding and bringing home more money, but silently being jealous or resentful of my success. Its such a weird place to be to have someone at one moment tell you how proud they are of you and tell you they love you but in the next minute be plotting things behind your back to go against you and the marriage. Painful.

I could go on, but just wanted to point out some real truths that hit close to home for me as well.

[This message edited by realitybites at 8:45 PM, Monday, November 28th]

I just read the majority of this 29 pages. For the first time.

When you said he had Covid, I was hoping I would read that he was in the ICU. Disappointing. Oh well. There’s always car accidents. Who knows, maybe a little birdie will gift him a kilo of cocaine after he has a heart attack.

A little shocked to read that you didn’t pee in his soup. Oh well. Missed opportunities, lol.

Wow. He is not reconciliation material. I’m so sorry this happened to you.

You are so strong. Kudos to you, girl. Keep going.

Realitybites, it’s really mind boggling how much our special snowflakes seem to fit a not-so-unique template somewhere for the same fucked up behaviors and patterns, isn’t it? Is is weird that I find it comforting in some small measure to know that I haven’t been alone in not being able to see what was happening and act? I wish none of us had had to experience this.

just this drip, drip, drip of his resentment and bitterness towards me, like "I" was the one who was the cause of all of his unhappiness

NOT taking responsibility for things happening at his work but always bitching about it or saying "I don't know what happened" or blaming others when something goes wrong at his work. OR feeling anger or resentment of his own sons, to covert narcissism, just to all things or feelings behind my back. He could just not ever be his authentic self, meaning deep down honesty with me. Honesty about really anything, small or big, if it had to do with something he knew I needed or wanted to feel safe in our relationship, it was always just a battle.

All of this. Someone else was ALWAYS responsible for why he couldn’t be happy. . .or tell the truth. . .or get ahead. Mine too resented his sons, mostly because my WH was my only child before they came along and took my attention off of appeasing and cajoling and mollifying and smoothing and indulging him. I had this sullen, pouty, resentful toddler on my hands while trying to take care of 2 actual children and hold down a full-time position as a college professor. So what he did was become more and more secretive and self-indulgent and dishonest (not that he was never any of that before, but he began to nurture that part of himself even more). He withheld information. He lied recreationally, it seemed, about small, unimportant things. And he punished me in small, petty ways. Just generalized childish meanness.

Everything was some kind of quiet battle, even when I didn’t realize it or shrugged it off. I didn’t know that he had been having an affair for more than 6 years, but by the time Dday rolled around, I most definitely knew something was very f-ed up and had said so in multiple ways. It was my imagination or my fault or it was happening because I didn’t respond to his feelings or give him enough attention or seduce him after an exhausting day of trying to do everything while he sat on his ass.

I grew more in my work dynamic, he acted like he was so proud of me, happy I was succeeding and bringing home more money, but silently being jealous or resentful of my success. Its such a weird place to be to have someone at one moment tell you how proud they are of you and tell you they love you but in the next minute be plotting things behind your back to go against you and the marriage. Painful.

This one I just had to comment on because this is SO my WH. He would point out to me how he bragged about me to other people without realizing that this was about HIM, not me. He would say that he was proud to me too, but everything about him seethed resentment and payback. We had 2 small children and I took an evening schedule so that we didn’t have to put them in daycare too soon. Knowing that I had to get to campus before class, he would consistently arrive home late so that I could barely get there stressed out or would be late. When I would come home to a mess, he would point out that he had a hard day and deserved a break. When I asked him to help more, he would relentlessly say, I do help. I WORK. As if he couldn’t quite process it that I also had a fulltime job, earned close to what he did, and also brought home grading and planning work.

It was like he was saying, Okay, you can have your education and your job and all, but by god, you’re going to take care of ME and MY needs too or pay for it, which meant shouldering all of the stuff that didn’t interest him, pandering to his perceived slights, listening to him give the list of injustices and incompetence at his job. And yeah, then resenting me for all of it at the same time.

All of this unspoken but certainly understood. Why else would we have bent ourselves into pretzels to accommodate and diminish ourselves?

I could go on and on too (and often do ) I really feel these posts and this thread.

Sigyn, I hope the holiday was good with your son. The first holiday season can be so hard. Sending hugs of support.

[This message edited by NowWhat106 at 8:29 AM, Thursday, December 1st]

Ah yes the covert sabotage. I can't remember if I already said this but they dont care if they lose, as long as you dont win (a game you dont even know your playing). I'm absolutely certain my ex flooded our house a second time, in the exact same way, deliberately, because the first time it happened he delighted in how much stress it caused. No normal person makes the exact same mistake twice in three weeks. But who would believe anyone would damage their own newly renovated home. Even if I'd recognized it at the time, I would have sounded like crazy, paranoid nag.
He also forgot to insure the house (along with the school fees, and other essentials) which I only discovered post separation going through all the accounts. Silly old duffer.
Anyway I hope Sigyn is Ok.

I feel like I'm drowning in the awful things right now.

How could you not?

We've all watched through your words as you have worked resolutely to extricate yourself from your stbxh's years of immoral sludge. The trauma you are battling bleeds through so powerfully in every sentence.

However....

Theres coming a day when you will have peeled off the last tendryl of his "awful things" from your life and will be able to lift up your eyes again to a new and far better path.

I hope you will post then as well.

Reading your most recent installment brought back Henley's words to me, words I held on to in my own dark night of the soul. Maybe they'll be fitting for you as well today....

"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul."

~ Invictus

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 3:06 PM, Friday, December 2nd]

If you look at his behavior, and the behaviors of other men mentioned here, you are dealing with someone who is filled with rage. This is different from anger. Anger is when someone cuts you off in traffic and you would like to yell at them but you are soon on your way and even though you talk about it you’re not angry anymore. Rage lives under the surface and it never goes away. Think of it as a bubbling cauldron and every now and then it spews out. It’s not when they yell it’s when they "get"you. A "gotcha" where you are fumbling around trying to figure out why your life is so messy. And you are all exactly right when you say that this is an ongoing control issue that they use and cannot give up. I don’t know if going to therapy would ever help. I do know it gives people the opportunity to look inward and see what they’re doing to people they profess to love. It’s going to take a therapist who is an expert in childhood trauma. In the meantime you have paid the price for years.

If you look at his behavior, and the behaviors of other men mentioned here, you are dealing with someone who is filled with rage. This is different from anger. Anger is when someone cuts you off in traffic and you would like to yell at them but you are soon on your way and even though you talk about it you’re not angry anymore. Rage lives under the surface and it never goes away. Think of it as a bubbling cauldron and every now and then it spews out. It’s not when they yell it’s when they "get"you. A "gotcha" where you are fumbling around trying to figure out why your life is so messy. And you are all exactly right when you say that this is an ongoing control issue that they use and cannot give up.

So true^^^^.

One of the many painful things besides an A in my own situation, our shared insurance was thru my H's work. It was the ONE thing I thought we both agreed on, I had even talked to our tax person and others with him beside me to show how this was a much better way to go financially, also he had good insurance thru his work that also helped when he went thru a cancer scare and that insurance was thankfully there. He had no issues with this, was perfectly happy it was thru his work, all he had to do was BE at work and it was taken out of his check, we went over it each year and never an issue with it coming from his work. Until one day out of the blue I find out the following......

***He allowed the insurance to lapse in coverage and did not tell me. Meaning he lost his insurance and also lost mine WHILE he would come home every day acting normal and he KNEW it was going to lapse and did not tell me.***

The only way I found out is that we got a letter in the mail from his insurance confirming this was happening, when I confronted him about it he lied and deflected and then cried and said he felt so bad, yadda, yadda, yadda.....but there was this look in his eyes like he was almost GLAD that he was "taking" something away from me. Even if he did not have insurance as well. Also with no plan in place to replace it. This is AFTER he had a cancer issue a couple years previously. He just let it happen. And had waited too long for anything to be done about it.

So from the quote I highlighted above, YES I can so relate! You can feel your life is sort of running along OK, things are fine, nothing seems to be going on and it happens OUT OF THE BLUE that they purposely sabotage something in our lives, just blows it up. Totally covert narcissistic, selfish, mean and just F'ing weird. And it left me fumbling around trying to figure out why my life just got all messy, trying to fix it, had no insurance and I did not know it was coming.

So yeah. You cannot depend on them for anything because you will never know when the rug is going to be pulled out from underneath you. At any time.

Hi Sigyn-

Hope you are hanging in there. How did Thanksgiving go? Any progress on the divorce piece?

Before I give an update I want to tell you all how much wisdom and understanding I'm getting from all your posts. I can't believe sometimes that I found this forum and this niche of people who have had parallel marriages to mine, discoveries, husbands (and wives) that have this exact same set of twisted issues.

the lack of respect for women, the secrecy, the information guarding and covert decision-making as power, the massive veiled resentment behind so many of his actions, the need to feel superior, and yeah, ultimately all originating from bitterness and anger at his mom. My WH deliberately chose to gravitate towards women that he felt superior to. They looked up to him, and he. Looked down on them. Perfect. Ultimately, the woman that he had an A with was a completely screwed up mess too. It gave him power and control.

This is so much my WH! SO much! Like you, I question what that says about ME! Like who did he think I was in our marriage? Someone beneath him? But he apparently built up so much resentment towards me without voicing it that if he actually felt above me, I think he wouldn't have been so resentful. I think our WH in part cheated on us to actually GIVE them a sense of control and power they felt they lacked in the marriage. The affairs were the way they tried to lower us and raise themselves up.

My home wasn't safe, work didn't feel safe. And potentially friends and family weren't safe because I worried "who knew about this and didn't tell me?" Ultimately, I wasn't safe for ME because naive trust made me an easily exploited sucker. It took infidelity to slap me with the truth. WTF, skull faced aliens walk among us! And, MY HUSBAND IS ONE OF THEM! Is EVERYONE but me a skull faced alien as well?

I've been struggling hard with this! At this point I haven't found a single friend or family member that knew about WH. They've all been I think genuinely shocked. I don't even bother asking WH who knew about him because he lies like he breathes and it's useless to ask him anything I need a real answer to. But some of WH's OW could easily be in yoga with me, or passing me on the trails as I run or walk the dog. My own naiveté is also something I can't help but take blame for. Because at least that's something I can fix.

Almost like his "only" control in life as perceived by him was to somehow punish me. Or totally sabotage our life together. Whether by affairs or by NOT taking responsibility for things happening at his work but always bitching about it or saying "I don't know what happened" or blaming others when something goes wrong at his work. OR feeling anger or resentment of his own sons, to covert narcissism, just to all things or feelings behind my back. He could just not ever be his authentic self, meaning deep down honesty with me. Honesty about really anything, small or big, if it had to do with something he knew I needed or wanted to feel safe in our relationship, it was always just a battle.

I'm coming to see this pattern in my marriage looking back as well. His secret life was about control. His hiding of his real feelings and actions were about control. Like the one who has the inside info is the one who has the power, and he always needed the power. There was so often this feeling of a space between us.... his words would tell me that the space wasn't there, but I could feel it. The first few years of our marriage I would always ask him if he really LIKED me. I knew he loved me, but did he really see and like who I was as a person? And eventually he asked me to stop asking him that, it was insulting to him, it hurt him, it felt unfair to him. But I remember that time in our marriage, and how I felt like that 'something was missing' feeling was about feeling that there was a piece missing flowing from him to me, and I was trying to put a name to it. I think that emptiness was a lack of 'respect', and maybe I was too young or naive to realize that so I called it 'liking'.

He would point out to me how he bragged about me to other people without realizing that this was about HIM, not me. He would say that he was proud to me too, but everything about him seethed resentment and payback

.

OMG yes! My WH only ever compliments me behind my back. Is that weird? He brags about me to others, but to me it's always this low key way of diminishing my career, of forwarding me articles when someone in my career commits fraud, or turns out to be a bad person, or is arrested for something unrelated to our profession - and when I'd call him out on it (why are you always forwarding me negative news stories about people in my career?) he'd tell me they were meant to be conversation starters to show me how much he pays attention to me, my life, my work. But those articles weren't about me, my life or my work, and they never started a real conversation. We are married, why didn't he just ask me about my work if he wanted a conversation? And he never did.

We both have graduate degrees, mine is more advanced than his, but we work in two very different fields. I needed my advanced degree to do my job, and his career maxes out at Masters and expertise in his field is gained from experience after that. It's the nature of our careers, not of our intelligence. But he's never been comfortable with the 'disparity' as he sees it in our education. My work is therefore minimized, his is lauded. And I'm very surprised when people tell me my husband brags about my work to others. He hasn't mentioned my work to me in literally years. I wasn't even aware he knew much about what I was doing, though I now know he was telling people - even his OW!!! - about my work. Why??? Why hide something like that??

I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

Thank you for this, I've never read it, I'm putting this up on my fridge with the lighthouse card my sister made for me!! I wish we had a heart emoji!

You can choose to remain in your marriage and do nothing or you can call him on every lie he tells. If you do that he will eventually leave…with another woman waiting in the wings. His whole persona is built around the big lie he has told himself for most of his life. It is the only way he can survive. For him to give up this persona would be like replacing his brain with another. He is entrenched in it. The onus is now on you what you want and what you will put up with. Endurance has a price…..your overall health, mental and physical.

The work issue - during the Covid lockdown, of course all non essential workers had to work from home. My ex apparently was exempt from this rule and went to the office because he was so much busier and important than 8 billion other people (I assume he was also meeting with his AP, but before that also he always believed he was indispensable to the universe).

My mother always thought ex greatly admired and respected me because he had said to her once "Everything comes so easy to VezfromTaz". No Mum - this is just the sad case, pity ploy he used to manipulate people.

Another thing I noticed when I WFH - ex, who had basically tried to make everything I did outside the home invisible - had to see me working. He saw my calendar filled with appointments, heard me speaking to clients, drafting docs, attending meetings. I remember him standing there one day just looking at me with a perplexed look on his face. He admitted to me he did nothing all day at work, saw a couple of clients a week (I could see on his email he spent most days buying and selling shares).

He also refused to help our autistic child do remote schooling, because he was so busy at work and had important meetings to go to. My mother came down to help and said he scurried off to the shed, and got on his phone. I had to arrange with the school for my son to attend with all the other children of "essential workers". I couldnt do both without help.

I could go on and on...In fact I often do.....

Looking forward to an update from this wise lady Sigyn.

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 9:11 PM, Tuesday, December 6th]