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Her memory is incomplete, imprecise, and most likely she wants to present the best portions she remembers. Could be she said "we should stop, I have a boyfriend". Could be she said it firmly in a way that meant it. Could be she said it in a way that directly contradicted the plain reading. Regardless, it wasn't "stop, I don't want this". She didn't indicate her personal desire was to stop. She did indicate she wasn't supposed to be doing it.

Edit: say she gets in a car, hammered. Says "I shouldn't drive" then does it anyway and runs over her boyfriend. Does that make her less culpable for her actions? We just don't have enough information to call this slam dunk obviously rape. I think it most likely was. I'm only trying to offer a point on boundaries and cheating.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:26 AM, Thursday, March 2nd]

I'm saying that if a woman doesn't make no clear that simply asking again is fine.

Why? Why not assume that if she wants what you offered, she would accept the first time or reintroduce the subject herself? Why is a man entitled to keep advocating for access to a woman's body until he forces her to give him a definitive rejection?

Why? Why not assume that if she wants what you offered, she would accept the first time or reintroduce the subject herself? Why is a man entitled to keep advocating for access to a woman's body until he forces her to give him a definitive rejection?

I'm going to go a little into the gender differences here. "Reintroduce herself" is basically not going to happen. It simply isn't the dynamic in the free and consensual sex of our society. Men are offering, women are saying no or accepting for the majority of sexual encounters.

If men *could* wait for a woman to want sex with us specifically, we would by in large do that. But we have no such luxury. Men have to ask for sex. If a woman doesn't say no I have as much a chance with her as anyone else that hasn't said no.

I've seen persistence pay off. Never once have I seen a woman give a maybe, change her mind spontaneously without further effort from the pursuing male, then say, "you know I would like to have sex with you".

Generalizing again, which I don't love doing. A woman wants to feel wanted. Being persistent make them feel wanted.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:02 AM, Thursday, March 2nd]

Being persistent make them feel wanted.

Being persistent can also make them feel pressured, intimidated, harassed, and obligated. And as some women here have already said, it can be scary to give a clear "no" when you know you could be openly attacked for offending a man's pride.

My wife is an alcoholic. She drank to get blackout drunk. While blackout drunk she was in many situations that put her safety in jeopardy. Men took advantage of that. As an adult she is responsible for her drinking. She has control over how much she drinks. It is her choice to drink. Not mine or anybody else’s. Does this give anybody the right to assault or rape her? No it certainly does not.
My wife would say this argument years ago before the affairs. That a woman should be able to walk down a dark alley in a nefarious neighborhood and not get raped or assaulted. And she is absolutely unequivocally correct. She should be. But that is not the world we live in. And until the day comes that we do, as women you need to protect yourselves. As men we need to instill in our gender that it is absolutely a crime to rape, assault take advantage of women for our sexual needs. And make sure those who do these crimes get punished.
I am a father of two wonderful daughters. And I would protect them to my dying breath. But I cannot protect them all the time. So I taught them to protect themselves. Not only by being aware of thier surroundings but also by taking self defense classes. Should they have to do this. No they should not. But that isn’t our world and it isn’t going to be for the foreseeable future. So as adults we need to open our eyes and protect ourselves.,
As for the drinking. As a spouse of a alcoholic. I stayed because we were a family. And I was taught that came first. But had we not had children I believe I would have left. My wife’s drinking is all on her. Nobody forced the wine glass to her lips. Blaming the disease or I’m unhappy does not take away the responsibility you have as an adult to take care of yourself. Expecting that humanity is going to do it for you is naive and irresponsible. What should be and what is, the definition of fantasy and reality.

I can’t deny that I have a hard time with this thread.
It’s my core-belief that people – men and women – have the expectation to not be assaulted. That a no is a no, that consent is required and all that. I also think a lot of societies views on rape and sexual assault are still rooted in old views that not even traditionally conservative establishments like law-enforcement go by anymore. As the father of sons, I have often talked to them about their responsibilities and behaviors.
Rape is a real problem, as is the growing misogyny and acceptance of toxic behaviors that are misleadingly labeled as "masculine" or part of the patriarchy or whatever. We have increases in date-rape, same-sex rape, gang-rape… Despite efforts it’s still a crime with an extremely low report-rate, a lower prosecution rate and an even lower sentencing rate.

We can have great ongoing threads about these issues but… I want to focus on THIS instance and the INFIDELITY and RELATIONSHIP angle rather than the moral or legal aspect of a sick society.

It wasn’t easy for me to say that I didn’t see rape in this scenario.

I can only base that on that the original poster shares. The OP makes a comment about us not knowing everything about the scenario, and that is totally true. Just like it’s clear he doesn’t know everything about the scenario and therefore his doubts and questions. All I know and all anyone other than OP knows is what he has shared at the time we make our comments.
Based on that… I don’t see rape or assault in THIS situation.
Doesn’t mean there was neither, just that based on what is share I can’t see it.

I’m not willing to use two different yardsticks to measure people: One forgiving for her because she was extremely drunk and another for him despite him being extremely drunk. We don’t KNOW what signals were given. We don’t KNOW who pushed for the next and the next and the next step. We only have her word – the word of a person that is extremely drunk – that she thinks she told the OM know she had a boyfriend and we don’t know what her actions and reactions were after that. We do know OM stopped at some point, and solely based on what OP shares that was his initiative. Or maybe not… maybe he finally realized GF reluctance.
Whatever… I just don’t see a clearcut assault or rape.

I do however see problems, and I see loads of them.

First of all:
Rothman: you come out swinging in your last post telling us that we don’t know the situation and what happened and therefore we can’t offer advice. That’s true because all we know and all we base our replies on are what you shared. We can offer advice based on that.
You talk about your situation being different and therefore advice won’t apply… Well… although each instance is different then there are behaviors and actions that tend to be common or shared. I fear you yourself might be falling into one now.
You minimize the drinking issue, yet in your very first post you shared:

She was blackout drunk - a common excuse in cheating scenarios im sure - but in her case, you'll just have to trust me. She was blackout. She blacks out easily and has a history of trouble controlling her alcohol consumption.

A HISTORY of…

That’s what my advice focuses on. The drinking, because I think that is the key to her acting in a healthier way.

When dealing with infidelity a very common response is to make the OP the enemy. After all we are trying to heal with the wayward spouse and its hard to heal with the enemy. It’s easier and quicker to find a common foe and place a fair share of the problems where they belong.

This is a delicate line… I hope I’m very clear on that nothing justifies rape or abuse… but there is no denying that some actions might increase your risk. Being out of control drunk increases your risk to ANYTHING negative. Be it getting into a fight, hitting on the wrong person, driving drunk, spending money…. Whatever. In this instance one thing that being that drunk did is minimize her ability to understand what really went on and to react correctly (as in press charges) once it happened.

I fear – based on your last post – that you will chose to ignore the good advice offered here, and I’m including my advice in that pot.

You two will find a common enemy in the OM who went over the line, without focusing on what pushes the line south of where it should be…

I suggested a period of sobriety for your GF. I still strongly stand by that advice. I would also add that she would benefit from IC to help deal with what she has gone through. Although I don’t see the rape per se then – once again – its only based on what you share. She could have been raped, but I think its more likely that she’s totally shocked about having placed herself in such a vulnerable position. I think the key to good mental health for her is to realize she wasn’t "placed" there but got herself there. At least in a way that made it harder for her to back out of it.

Based on that… I don’t see rape or assault in THIS situation.

Wholeheartly agree with Bigger. I started posting last night then decided to delete my post.

she thinks she told the OM know she had a boyfriend

.....exactly IMO.

Again, Bigger makes excellent points.

Whether or not it was assault or cheating matters as it’s the difference in OP being justifiably upset, or an AH for making it about himself and not supporting a victim of sexual assault.

It’s no wonder rape is underreported and there are thousands of rape kits that are sitting on shelves not processed (which a portion would point to rapes being committed by police officers.)

OP’s gf was black out drunk. Therefore she could not consent. Therefore, she was assaulted. She left the party with the intent to walk home and go to sleep and somehow ended up on some person’s couch. The salient point being she said, according to the creep - I want to be in my bed. The purity in that statement. She literally just wanted to go to sleep! This girl had no intent nor made any cognizant choice to end up the the situation she did.

As far as men being persistent, there’s a fine line between persistence and coercion. Coercion is rape. And I understand why it makes some men highly uncomfortable as it may paint a difference story of past sexual encounters.

I’ll repeat, women are killed for saying no. I don’t let guys down softly because I want to be coy I do it so that I’m *hopefully* not attacked whether verbally or physically, or in the worst instance, murdered. I’m not exaggerating or overstating. And until men realize & acknowledge the dangers that women have to face daily at the hand of other men, and hold those men accountable, rape culture will also persist.

This discussion devolved into the whole "women play hard to get" mantra though this girl had no faculties to make any kind of decision other than wanting to sleep in her bed. Corroborated by her memories or rather, lack thereof, of the evening, and her "friends" statements of her level of intoxication.
In 10 years he waited to the night she’s bombed to be "persistent." A creep.

Is should just delete this but I already typed it out.

Ya know..if a woman plays hard to get..a man isn't required to play that game.

T/J(ish) I was about 17 and in high school when a gang of young men who were hanging around the school gates (although the police knew about them, they did nothing to remove them) stopped a girl in our group and started “pursuing” her.

One of them (the guy that was engaging with my friend) was a known to us rapist but because school girls were too scared to report it (and not be taken seriously plus be labelled "asking for it" for a variety of reasons) he was free as a bird.

So my friend did what any girl/young woman learnt to do when dealing with an intimidating man, she did her best not to anger him. Told him she had a boyfriend, gently dismissed his sexual advances by pretending she’s busy or that he was joking, and ensured she was always in a large group entering and exiting the school.

We literally spent about a year always making sure she got to her bus stop after school and was safe on her way home. About a year later she relaxed as he seemed to lose interest (he’d stop her from time to time whilst with us to pay her "compliments" but it didn’t progress so we all thought he got the message) my friend decided to leave the school ground at lunch as she wanted to buy something from a corner shop. She disappeared for two hours and returned crying.

We knew what happened (although we didn’t hear the details) and begged her to report it to teachers. She refused.

She wasn’t blackout drunk, she was a sober 18 yo girl trying to let down a man gently so he doesn’t beat the crap out of her as we heard he did with other girls. Apparently he had a technique: you could go with him voluntarily (when he caught you alone) and it would be just him raping you, or he’d take you by force and you’d get gang raped. My friend that day went voluntarily when she was presented with this "attractive" choice.

Due to the responses on this thread and human ability to justify persistance even when sexual advances are clearly unwanted and label it as normal, I can see why she didn’t report the rape. She would have been told that a year of gently rejecting this creep, telling him she’s not interested but being mindful of his historical anger were not good enough. 😞

[This message edited by Luna10 at 10:27 AM, Friday, March 3rd]

I can’t find fault with any of the responses about the prevalence of sexual abuse and the dire situation we are regarding rape and sexual abuse.

However – this thread isn’t about the social issue of rape – it’s about THIS instance.

Let’s say she was raped.

That is NOT infidelity and should not be treated in the relationship as infidelity.

But… in THIS instance then I do not see infidelity as the key issue nor the rape/assault. They are issues, but if the KEY issue isn’t dealt with then the OP and the GF are doomed for repeats of some sort or another.

The key issue is the statement from the original poster that this woman has a history of excessive drinking and blacking out.

Doesn’t mean a drunk woman is eligible for rape. But it does leave her vulnerable to negative behaviors or actions – as an initiator and/or as an unwilling participant. THAT is the key issue in this thread. Deal with the drinking -> deal with the assault/rape/what-did-I-really-do issue -> deal with the relationship issues. Maybe not linearly, but definitely all connected.

What I fear is that by focusing on the assault/rape – was it/wasn’t it the issue becomes the OM/rapist/assaulter.

But… it’s all a moot point. The original poster has already told us that we don’t know the situation, drinking isn’t the issue and that the only thing he’s taking from this is to not listen to advice he doesn’t like on the internet…

[This message edited by SI Staff at 2:25 PM, Friday, March 3rd]

I understand what you're saying, Bigger.

I do hope that some of the men here have read the response made by many of the women,and have learned something. That a "soft" letdown is still a letdown. That a woman shouldn't have to tell a man a hundred different versions of "no." That,if an immature woman is playing hard to get, he doesn't have to play. I hope they teach their sons that anything other than an enthusiastic "Yes!" is not a yes,and in order to protect themselves, and her, they need to get that "yes!" And anything other than that "yes" should be treated,and respected, as a "no."

For what it’s worth, I’ve heard the messages of the women on this thread and learned. I have three sons that will hear that message as well. Thanks for your persistence

Yes!!

Also..teach your daughters not to say "no",when they really mean "yes." It does a huge disservice to all women.

I basically never post, but @Hellfire...Count me in for hearing the message as well.

If empathy for our sisters' predicament in these situations isn't enough, I'll offer a personal and selfish reason for why I subscribe to the "soft no."

It was mentioned up thread that women want to be wanted. So do I. If I make a pass at a lady and am met with anything short of "Hells yeah!," I'm out. My translation of her statement would be "I'm just not that into you." I'm not gonna sit around to investigate whether she's playing hard to get, or if there's some societal pressure making her not say yes. Since I'm apparently prone to using quotes in this post...I offer the immortal words of Sweet Brown after escaping the fire: "Ain't nobody got time for that"

If you're still around Rothman, I wish you the best in supporting your GF through this nightmare. I would, however, caution you to not forget about yourself. Bigger's counsel about your GF's drinking problem is spot on. More problems are on the horizon if it's not dealt with properly. And again Sweet Brown's words should be heeded.

For what it’s worth, I’ve heard the messages of the women on this thread and learned. I have three sons that will hear that message as well. Thanks for your persistence

Thank you! Thank you Retrospected too and my personal thanks to all men who are willing to hear us and change something around themselves either by raising awareness or perhaps protecting a vulnerable woman next time they see one to make us and our daughters feel safer.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 6:53 PM, Friday, March 3rd]

Rape is never ok.
But putting yourself in a dangerous situation is just dumb.

This woman didn’t get drunk alone and decide to go for a walk alone through a bad neighbourhood with a flashing sign that said "rape me". She was drinking with friends and agreed to walk home with someone who she had known for 10 years and believed she could trust.

Continuing with the tea analogy, you can make her 1000 cups of tea when she gives you 1000 "not no" answers to as long as you don't make her drink any of them.

Legally, yeah I suppose you are in the clear…. but dude, if you ask her 1000 times without a yes, you are most certainly harassing her. And if you have asked her a bunch of times without a yes, pretend to be her friend and then "persist again" when she is too drunk to properly consent, then you are most certainly sexually assaulting her.

It simply isn't the dynamic in the free and consensual sex of our society. Men are offering, women are saying no or accepting for the majority of sexual encounters.

If men *could* wait for a woman to want sex with us specifically, we would by in large do that. But we have no such luxury. Men have to ask for sex. If a woman doesn't say no I have as much a chance with her as anyone else that hasn't said no.

You are speaking to what I presume is your experience. Please don’t generalize for the rest of us. I assure you, plenty of women are perfectly capable and perfectly happy to initiate. I’d also like to point out that initiating/negotiating sex within a relationship are totally different than this scenario.

Generalizing again, which I don't love doing. A woman wants to feel wanted. Being persistent make them feel wanted.

I just love it when men educate me on what women want. I assure you, unwanted attention doesn’t feel good. It is humiliating and uncomfortable and embarrassing and annoying.

"I have a boyfriend" is simply not a no. It actually implies "... But I'd be interested otherwise". "We can't" "We shouldn't" are also imply desire to continue and are not "no". Often saying something like that just adds to the illicit desire.

Nope again. Are there people who use it as a coy "I-would-if-I-could-but-I-cant…"? Sure, I suppose but this is not that context, and I would argue that if you've gotten to the point where there is "illicit desire", the precise wording is not the main issue. As Alethia has pointed out, women have been socialized their entire lives to use soft letdowns to protect the feelings of others – particularly the (often fragile) egos of men. OP said the guy in this scenario was in a position of power over his gf – it makes sense she would be motivated to save his feelings. "I have a boyfriend" tends to work much better than a harder no because it saves the guy’s ego in the moment. It allows them to save face. I quickly learned to use it when guys would offer to buy me drinks in bars because "no thanks" was often met with unwanted persistence (keep shaking that 8-ball, right? ) and "harder nos" were often met with "okay bitch, you’re not that hot anyway" or a simple (but oh so elegant) "dyke". It also works because in a lot of cases, men will respect "the property" of other men more than they do women. (For example, by persisting past a 'soft no').

I get that this might be triggery for someone whose spouse failed to use hard nos as part of the slippery slope in their A, and I absolutely agree that if some woman was flirting with my husband I would prefer him to express that he wasn’t interested rather than simply pointing out that he was married. But as a 120 lb woman who has been screamed at by a large drunk man I didn’t know for saying, "No thanks, I’m not interested," I absolutely get it. In my own personal life, I have begun to use, "I'm happily married, thanks," (emphasis on happily) in situations where it is important to preserve the relationship.

Edit: say she gets in a car, hammered. Says "I shouldn't drive" then does it anyway and runs over her boyfriend. Does that make her less culpable for her actions?

Legally, yes. Assuming he dies, this is literally the difference between manslaughter and murder. Is he still dead in both instances? Yes, but her culpability is different.

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Finally, thank you to all the men who listen to women on this issue and are teaching younger generations of men to do better.

It's really not my intention to invalidate any given experience. I assure you that what I have described not my personal style of engaging with women. I'm not trying to back out of anything I said either. Going to a specific example for me, I was getting along well with a girl at a party, she seemed a little drunk but not wasted. She came back from the bathroom and said, "I want penis". The phrasing, tone, and condition of her was such that I did suddenly realize she was in fact completely wasted. So I said, "no I think you need to go to bed" and I talked to the host and we put her in a safe bed. Just a personal and real example where the context and words meant the opposite based on my judgment.

I think more than once I've pointed out that I have had friends in my life that are less than upstanding moral individuals, but that never touched a woman that didn't want it. They have on more than one occasion talked to a woman that initially "didn't say no" and by the end of the night enthusiastically said yes.

As for waiting for a woman to come ask for it, yes, that is my personal experience. But I do believe that this is the experience of most men that are single or looking to hookup. They do not get their hookups by sitting around waiting for it. In a relationship I also agree that it is a much different dynamic. I can't quite call it another "generalization" but in more than half of relationships, my guess is the man is the high libido partner. The high libido partner will naturally initiate more and say "no thanks" less.

I'm not going to tell you what you personally want. But I will tell you that if you want to learn to catch a fish you ask a fisherman, not a fish. Even if the average woman doesn't like persistence (let's say that's the case) it doesn't matter because persistence can and does pay off with a large enough fraction of women.

The 1000 cups is an exaggeration, personally I'm more of a three strikes man.

In many states a DUI that is fatal is second degree murder and is worse than normal vehicular manslaughter.

Edit to add another personal example. I stopped buying drinks for girls (first) as a rule when I was single. It's a waste of money and not interesting. It's always been my belief that you need to be different and interesting. Get out of small talk into a normal conversation.

I will give it to the guys willing to be OM. I 100% believe it is easier to compare favorably to a SO that isn't there than to compete against all available options.

Final edit: my wife also thinks my single man theories are dumb but they worked on her. So 🤷‍♂️

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 10:55 PM, Friday, March 3rd]

But I will tell you that if you want to learn to catch a fish you ask a fisherman, not a fish.

I truly hate this analogy.

1. Fish cannot speak so it would be ridiculous to ask a fish anything.
2. Even if fish COULD speak, absolutely zero fish WANT to be caught. Catching a fish is ALWAYS against the fish's will. So unless you're asking for coaching to trick a woman into sleeping with you AGAINST HER WILL, its garbage.
3. It likens women to literal meat for male consumption and likens the act of courting a woman to sport.
4. It feeds into the idea that women are unknowable exotic creatures to be studied by "male experts". They are not. They are people who have thoughts and feelings and ideas and are capable of speaking for themselves and who deserve to have those thoughts, feelings and ideas taken seriously. If a fish could communicate what they actually wanted to a fisherman, I'm sure the fisherman would find that information useful. Guess what, women can do that! To suggest that we shouldn't listen to women about what women want is insulting.

I was in this situation in college. My good male friend literally protected my body from a predatory faux-friend. I would never have remembered a thing.

She told you asap. Everything she has told you has checked out. She was completely taken advantage of. I hope you will address her drinking but show compassion for the rest. And I think he is lying about at least some of it. Bragging he was with her and hurting you is the closest he's ever going to get to having her.

When I run the world, having sex with a woman who has been drinking will be a crime. All she needs is a dna swab and a blood alcohol test. Boom! You are locked up (if she says you were "unwelcome"). Problem solved! We won't even need to argue because men will stay 1,000 feet away from any woman who even faintly smells of alcohol. Be ready for this new law--as soon as I become the first Global President.