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Thanks to all who answered.

I have seen the term "selfish WW thinking" mentioned alot. How long for you did it take to stop that? Like realize you were doing it? Here is my issue, my husband tries to jump to the issues in our marriage when I have told him I cannot work on that right now with the state I'm in. I have aknowleged we had them, I have known it for a long time. But somehow when we argue he ends up there anyway and it's driving me insane. Just wondering if this is the same as the selfish WW thinking?

Felix, of course its the same.

So, I understood pretty early on that I needed to do a few things that would be quite outside my comfort zone, and one of those things was getting used to rejection. Now, that comes in many different forms and varying degrees. But no matter it all stung a little bit.

Not being able to discuss pre A issue felt like a rejection of my needs. While I knew it was necessary and also irrelevant at this point, it was hard to allow myself to basically become null in the relationship. But isn't that pretty much selflessness? Especially in these particular circumstances. Its saying I'm not important right now and unless that is coupled with empathy and compassion, its not going to sit well within a WS.

I think your WH is still operating in self preservation. It takes an actual desire to turn it off. I don't think he's ready to set aside his wants and needs, there is a false protection behind it. Deflection at its finest.

Do you think of AP when you have sex with me? Do you ever confuse us in your heads?

NOTE: No recent event spurned this question. It just has always been swirling around my head [mind movies] and for the first time actually found the words and courage to ask.

No way Chaos. Confusing the two? Nope, never. I truly understand where that thought derives from, probably have asked yourself how could they not? But its much the same as not thinking about past partners prior to marriage.

I will say early on in the aftermath, when we would have sex, I thought about AP as in,

I wonder if BH is thinking about us

I wonder if BH is triggered

I wonder if BH is enjoying this because of thoughts of AP

Things like that. It was extremely hard to concentrate early on knowing all the shitty things that could possibly be going through BHs head.

WSs, when did you realize you had fucked up and were totally wrong in your thinking about having an A? Was it a moment or a gradual realization? Did it happen while in the A or after?

WSs, when did you realize you had fucked up and were totally wrong in your thinking about having an A? Was it a moment or a gradual realization? Did it happen while in the A or after?

I'd love to hear some responses on this topic (which related to the end of the A). But I'd also like to hear something slightly different (which relates to the start of the A).

For WS's that got involved unintentionally (didn't go affair seeking), what was the first action you took that you knew was "wrong" but did it anyway with some sort of rationalization?

I'm interested to understand these gradual shifts in thinking.

The first thing I knowingly did wrong was actually the very first thing that led to the affair. It wasn’t an explicit text. It was very vaguely flirtatious, making reference to the outing I had been on that day.

I rationalized it by saying to myself, he was my ex, I still loved him, the day made me think of him, no harm done by letting him know about the day and making the reference to him (specifically, his name). Lots of rationalizations.

Hi This0is0Fine,

For WS's that got involved unintentionally (didn't go affair seeking), what was the first action you took that you knew was "wrong" but did it anyway with some sort of rationalization?

It's not so much what I did but what I didn't do. My AP started feeding me compliments and I didn't say stop. She said "I drive her crazy" and I didn't say stop. After a half year of seemingly small boundary crossings we wound up in a public place holding hands and things spiraled from there with more, small transgressions. Each one, like a highly suggestive text for example, was absolutely inappropriate but seemed harmless enough. Problem was she started to occupy way too much of my brain space that should have been for my W. After a while she so filled my like a disease taking me over and I was unable to stop making incremental advances.

Darkness Falls and Lucky,

Thanks you both for your answers.

Not sure if I am supposed to start a new thread?

Here is my question , how many of you WS told your BS “I love you but not in love with you”, or I don’t love you” or I have no feelings for you?

It feels like at times, there’s truth to it , or is it justification for actions , or the inability to love 2 people at the same time or cognitive dissonance?

It’s hard to know sometimes if it’s the fog and I should let it go, or just truly accept the love is gone

Hi JDot

While thick in the fog of the Affair I thought I had settled into a life of polygamy. Like I was really going to love two people for a really long time. Now, years after going NC I see the difference in the two lives. If you define Real Love as a connection to someone where there’s such a commitment to them that you would sacrifice anything for them that describes my feeling for my W. My long term AP gave me adrenaline rushes. But I actually didn’t like her all that much. We spoke of being each other’s drug. To feed some weird addiction. While I still think of her every day even though I have not been in contact for four years. I would sacrifice nothing for her and everything for my W. Your question gave me a good long pause for me to define what Love is for me. There are many kinds, aren’t there. Love for a child, a parent, a friend, a spouse even something material. And yes the relationship with the AP is a warped, addiction feeding story that I would not call Love. Let’s call it a f’d up selfish, addiction feeding, undercover, subversive ego overindulgence.

Lucky77 I read your response to Jdot over and over. It sounds so similar to what WH told me about LTAP. Not liking her much, addiction to the attention, Adrenalin rush...

I have a hard question for you. You spoke of thinking of your AP every day even after 4 years of NC. That was hard to read but your raw honesty is much appreciated. Even though you clarified your love and devotion to your wife (which was good to read)

In what way(s) do you think of AP?

Hi Chaos

Thank you for listening to my story. My feelings for the AP are just neutral. I’m no longer in any weird infatuation. In fact I will pivot in my comments about AP. It’s not her I think about. It’s the A that I think about. The fact that it was an enormous betrayal. I’m still in shock that is happened. It was three intense years of craziness. The fact that it was such an ordeal is permanently branded in my fiber now. I feel like I carry a gaping scar on my body with me everywhere. I can see when AP occasionally looks at my profile on social media. It doesn’t trigger any warm feelings. I just get a chance to validate there’s zero interest in going back. No animosity. No warmth. Just flatness.

Chaos,

Do you think of AP when you have sex with me? Do you ever confuse us in your heads?

Confusing? Never. Not during the A and and not after DDay. Same with thinking if I'm interpreting it the way I think you mean it. During the A, it wasn't because I had this sense of decency or anything. I was all about keeping everything separate and compartmentalizing and me thinking about the AP would have intruded on that. So, no, but not for any noble reason. I just didn't. After DDay, well we didn't have sex until more than half a year later. At that point my whole thought process was different and I was focused on my BH. I did have thoughts similar to foreverlabeled though. But never where I would be reminiscing or anything like that. No.

Hi This0is0Fine.

For WS's that got involved unintentionally (didn't go affair seeking), what was the first action you took that you knew was "wrong" but did it anyway with some sort of rationalization?

It's been a while, but for me it was telling the AP things about my BH and personal life. It created an emotional intimacy between us. And then because we connected over that, I started letting him do things that I knew was over the line as we got closer. The AP and I knew each other for a long time before the A. We volunteered together. And after a visit to Sloan, Cornell or Mount Sinai, he suggested coffee and I would think what's the harm? Seeing kids in various wards is emotionally exhausting. A coffee would be good. And then we'd talk and I'd share too much about my personal life, my husband, I'd complain and it wasn't to my sister or one of my girlfriends. It was to a man I worked with. And he'd start touching my shoulder, my arm, or my fix my hair and I let him because I got a thrill. I knew what he was doing, but it meant he found me sexy and desirable and it's harmless, right? And then it wasn't coffee but lunch because he was hungry. And it wasn't just a touch but a goodbye hug, then a peck and then a kiss. And eventually an A.

But the thing that I've warned my girls about before their weddings is that that their marriages are theirs only. No one else. You need advice or sometimes to vent a little? Come to me. Maybe each other. But never other men. Even other girls is touchy. And maybe I'm overboard about it now because of what I did, but it started from there. So the thing that I did that I knew was wrong was sharing personal information with another man that I had no business sharing. And that opened the door which I went right through.

MrsWalloped,

Thank you for your response. It will certainly help me identify when something has started but "nothing has happened".

I have not yet shared my story but this thread seems a good point to start.

Is it normal for a WS to fear their BS cheating or having a revenge affair? Did any any of you fear this and have expressed your concerns to your BS? If yes, how did you word it and/or show it?

After I discovered my WGF (Fiancée back then, together for 7 years) cheated on me with her EX-BF from 10y ago I cancelled the engagement, broke up with her and walked away never to see her again. We did end up back together and I decided to give R a try a year later. However in the meantime I did sleep with 2 women, one ONS and three times with an acquaintance.

She knows this and doesn't hold it against me or blames me. She's also not actively accusing me of having an affair or cheating on her. Nothing I do gives her any real reason to believe that. I'm not big into social media however she can easily access everything by using my computer (I don't care since I have nothing to hide). I didn't see it but I'm pretty sure she's also checked my phone. Again, doesn't matter and nothing to hide.
She's just terribly afraid I will either cheat on her or just leave her for someone else. Whenever I want to go out with friends (guys night out) she gets annoyingly clingy and basically offers me everything so to not go out.

I appreciate any of your thoughts.

I knew what he was doing, but it meant he found me sexy and desirable and it's harmless, right?

I've long been curious about a slightly finer point, which some of the questions above allude to. I get it that many A's, especially so-called "mid life crisis" A's, begin in slippery slope fashion just as Mrs. Walloped describes. Indeed, I'd hazard that a lot of married people engage in "proto-affair" behavior from time to time, without rushing home and telling our spouses. "Honey, I exchanged a flirty glance with a woman at a restaurant today and it made me feel tingly and desirable." "Honey, I know we've been having some hard times, but I crossed the line and shared with my assistant at work and she offered me some helpful advice." Many married people find themselves in these marginal areas, and in most cases they/we don't rush home and confess to our spouses. We think to ourselves, "it's harmless", and we move on. It never goes farther. I think this is pretty common among married people.

Some people, though, continue down this path as Mrs. Walloped describes. At some point, I have to believe that anybody being honest with him/herself realizes that a line has been crossed, that this is no longer "harmless".

My question is whether any WS can recall the point in time when he/she was conscious of being across the line, engaged in infidelity, and how the WS dealt with interactions with his/her BS that first time. My own cheater engaged in an A for some months. I'm estimating 6-8 months, but not sure. During that time she actually got her ducks in a row to move into her AP's home and leave me. On Dday, she informed me of the A and also that she was leaving me.

In hindsight, I can see how the slippery slope advanced from initially just a drink with her dance troupe, to drinks with a smaller group, to private talks with the AP during these drinks, etc. But at some point she must have known that she was into a relationship with the AP, and in my case at least I rather suspect it was well before she had sex with him. My WxGF had a good poker face and is probably somewhat of a sociopath. I was clueless. In fact, I thought that the gradually escalating bickering at home was my fault and I was twisting myself into knots to be a better partner, to make things right at home.

What about a WS who isn't so hard-hearted? How did you convince yourself to carry on a charade with your spouse that first time?

I reckon, by the way, that it gradually got easier to do after that first time.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:29 AM, August 3rd (Tuesday)]

Many married people find themselves in these marginal areas, and in most cases they/we don't rush home and confess to our spouses. We think to ourselves, "it's harmless", and we move on. It never goes farther. I think this is pretty common among married people.

Some people, though, continue down this path as Mrs. Walloped describes. At some point, I have to believe that anybody being honest with him/herself realizes that a line has been crossed, that this is no longer "harmless

".

The lines, there are multiple, are in different places for everyone. Mrs. Fibble thought she was good as long as Sex didn't happen. I think "harmless" sticks around much further for many WS. They are thinking that BS isn't going to find out. I will say that there has to be a point where deep down they do know they are doing is wrong.

I was clueless. In fact, I thought that the gradually escalating bickering at home was my fault and I was twisting myself into knots to be a better partner, to make things right at home.

It's always the gaslighting and open disrespect that highlights once confronted that really fatally damages the M.

[This message edited by grubs at 10:55 AM, August 3rd (Tuesday)]