SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Rising strong by brene brown helped me see shame was not helping anything.

However there was a lot of work to do for me there. I have read a lot about it and the problem with shame is it exists at our identity level. Guilt is I feel badly I did something. Shame is I am bad. And often a ws has a long-standing life long accumulation that feeds into this confirmation bias.

Mine started with CSA from multiple older boys. Emotional abuse from my mom. Physical and emotional abuse by a sibling.

So mine had always been there. Telling me I didn’t deserve things, that I wasn’t lovable.

I had to work to change my self talk. Spirituality helped because I could make sense that I am divinely love and inherently worthy. Therpy was instrumental.

But your wife may have a healthy relationship with shame to a certain extent. What she could be expressing is regret, having trouble finding compassion for herself because what she did. Self forgiveness is a hard thing to process and it may only take a a consistent period of time where she is continuing to practice her new skills as well as making good decisions that make her realize that she does have power to control her present and future. It’s her relationship with herself that is showing damage in this instance and that takes time to repair just like it does her relationship with you.

I think I was 5 years out or so when I could keep rerouting to self compassion when those feelings arise. But there likely won’t be a time I won’t hate what I did. I just no longer hate myself.

My D-day was April 4th early afternoon. I found sext messages between my wife and a 40 y/o (I am 53, wife was 49) married coworker.

I have asked when did this begin and her ongoing answer is I don't know. To the WS's, do you remember? Could my wife's answer be truthful and she is really not sure?

Another question. My wife has said repeatedly that she thought it was just "harmless flirting" yet she had the mindset to delete the messages before she left work each day. I have said repeatedly "You thought it harmless yet knew you had to take steps to keep me from finding out. Please help me understand how you can say you thought it harmless yet knew you had to hide it from me "

Her answer is still "I cannot explain why I thought this way but I now realize it wasn't harmless" Did you (WS's) believe what you were doing was harmless? I cannot wrap my mind around this nor can I accept her "explanation" and move on. This is keeping me from fully committing to the relationship and my wife knows this.

My first post so please forgive any missteps

Answers only from WSes or madhatters posting from the WS perspective in this thread.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:04 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

While I can't really address the "when did it begin" issue because I purposely chose to cheat. I remember the exact moment I decided. But, I won't buy the I thought it was harmless and deleting the messages. Does she delete everyone's messages or just those? No, she was hiding it. As far as the "when did it begin" I can say that I didn't realize that when I started the affair that I couldn't stop. She may not have been able to stop the communication which is a huge red flag even if she hadn't cross the line to conversations she needed to delete. I found I could not stop and I needed the contact, like a drug. She may not know when it crossed over to addiction, but she knew she was on the slope if she was deleting messages. It caught me off guard because I thought I was in control. I hope this helps.

I think some affairs can be kind of like the boiling a frog theory. She may not remember the exact date they started texting. I do know the date for mine because it corresponded with a live meeting where there was travel. I may not have remembered the exact date if that were not the case but I still would have been able to say a general time frame.

What happened in my circumstances was I did the same thing- I knew I was deleting the messages because I knew from day one that it wasn’t appropriate, but I can say that I did have it in my mind that I was in control, it was harmless, etc. I told myself that a little harmless flirting was giving me a boost but I wasn’t interested in the AP at first in that way. I just liked the attention. Over time, I began to rely on that high and the justifications and denial became stronger. I quickly felt entitled to happiness at any cost and that’s a very screwed up kind set to be in as a married woman.

That’s cognitive dissonance at work- where you can hold two beliefs at one time. And the justifications take over for what I wanted to do. Rather than doing the right things.

I think your wife may believe her answers because she is still lying to herself. No one likes being the villain of their story. However, you already know she isn’t taking accountability then she can’t grow. She needs to dig deeper into her behaviors, and take greater accountability for what she has done. How she became susceptible and admit that she lacked integrity, empathy, and consideration for her husband and family.

I can understand a little the slippery slope but she needs to do a full accounting of the things that allowed her to keep moving forward and fix those things. Some of the whys for my affair really do not directly relate to having the actual affair. (Not taking responsibility for my happiness, expecting others to do unexpressed things to express their love) none of the whys and how’s have anything to do with my husband or my marriage and that’s how you know you have a good list. Even in areas where my needs weren’t being met - it was my responsibility to recognize and communicate, and cope with.

You are right she needs to dig deeper, though on a surface level I can see how she might explain it that way, there is a self awareness that she is likely afraid to explore or articulate. That’s not your problem what is holding her back, she needs to figure that out and really look at motivations and factors that should have been checked differently.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:31 PM, Tuesday, August 20th]

Thank you both for the replies.

Last night was the first time she admitted that she knew I would be upset if I found out. She said "I knew you would be upset but not to this level." (The day after I found out I asked her to leave the house)

Till now she kept saying she thought it was harmless, said she never thought about what would happen if I found out, which I have always thought was BS and now at 4.5 months she finally admits it.

This feels like trickle truth to me. After she made this admission she said "This is not trickle truth. After much self inflection and working with my IC I now understand that I knew you would be upset if you found out."

This sounds like mental gymnastics BS. I will always believe she knew from the moment she replied to his first text that she understood the risks, that she weighed the pros and cons, and decided "If he finds out he will be upset but no biggie."

Now I believe she thought she was in charge of our marriage and that I would never leave so she started the affair.

Now I'm wondering what other "realizations" and "insights" she is going to have that contradict answers she has already given me.

WS's, did this happen to you? Did you change some of the answers you gave your spouse and said the answer(s) changed because of self introspection and working with a therapist?

Yes. I did. And keep in mind I confessed everything, on my own. I think to have an affair you have to lie to yourself. And my thoughts on what happens evolved and changed over time.

This does not mean that you have to accept any of it. How you chose to respond is completely valid.

There are people here that don’t believe in "the fog" but I do believe in it because I experienced it. What I define it as is the unwinding of what you told yourself over the course of the affair that made it possible.

There is a document in the healing library about how ws basically brainwash themselves. I rewrote my marital history, I made big problems out of small ones. And I told myself everything I was doing was justified.

I also very much underestimated the consequences of my actions. Of how hurt and upset he would be. I simply lied to myself every single day to be able to keep doing what I wanted.

What you describe I could have written.

It’s hard to explain how deep in the sand someone has to put their head to do something as monumentally stupid and evil as infidelity.

I also was in the camp of lying to myself about the consequences of my actions. At first, the self-sale was the belief that I was still within bounds of what was ok. Then I stretched what fell under the umbrella of "ok." Then I basically turned and ran away from my conscience.

Cognitive dissonance can be very powerful. In my mind, I was a moral person who wouldn't hurt anyone deliberately. So if what I was doing wasn't moral, I wouldn't be doing it. Ergo, it must be okay! Well, not completely ok, but more of a gray area than a catastrophe.

Like hiking out, I confessed, and in the time between when I ended the A and my confession, I had had time to face up to the reality that what I had done was very bad indeed. I expected my BH (BBF at the time) to be furious. I did not expect him to be devastated. The depth of his pain was a genuine surprise.

What did you do with your integrity or did you really never have it?

Cambridge defines integrity as the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles that you refuse to change:

It's confusing to me for people to supposedly have this quality and then suddenly NOT have it.

So many WS stories, mine's included, contain an element of a person who NO ONE would have thought capable of such actions. Whom everyone in their professional life, personal life, family life would have lauded for their integrity.

Did this quality exist in you?

Did it break?

Did you just put it to the side?

Did you just throw it away completely because it didn't serve you in the A?

[This message edited by TrayDee at 9:16 PM, Wednesday, August 28th]

I have thought about this question a lot since I saw it yesterday, it’s a deep question.

On a surface level, I would tell you someone can have a history of good character and choose not to exercise it in a decision.

On a just beneath the surface, I would tell you that for me, there was a lot of distorted thinking that created an unhealthiness in me that altered my normal processes.

And on a deeper level, I had to confront why a woman who had never lied to her husband suddenly exercised no integrity. And how to make sure that I will not betray myself or anyone again on this.

I had created conditions in myself over time that went unexamined until I no longer cared what happened to me. When you reach a state like that, it’s difficult to care about anything. Instead of using healthy coping processes, I used escapism.

So the gist for me is this- when you lead an unexamined life, and you do what’s right mostly to be "a good person" and to be seen that way by others, it’s not the same as someone who has values based on who they want to be for themselves.

I think of it as a gradient - not really as a it’s there or it isn’t. I was conducting many things in my life with integrity at the same time I was conducting an affair.

Today, I have a strong sense of my own values based on who I authentically am and what I have learned about life. Before, it was more playing a role based on who I thought I should be. This leads to the thing a lot of folks say about integrity- it’s doing the right thing when no one is watching. But for me, I think having integrity means someone is always watching - and that someone is me. I have learned by not being aware and aligned with my value system allowed me to justify the unjustifiable. And so now I am more intentional and vigilant.

It was once weaker now it’s stronger.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:16 PM, Thursday, August 29th]

Hello!

I have a question regarding a WS "getting it." My WH is trying, although I feel like it is near impossible for him to ever "get or understand" the pain he has inflicted on me, our family and our future together. Not that I think he will ever "get" my pain and I will never be able to "get" his, but he still does things without thinking about the bigger picture or about the potential harm he’s continuing to cause me, himself and us.

As an example, he deleted a text thread from his sister because she asked if she could come out and visit us (he knows I’m not ready to see his family and he isn’t ready to face them either). He didn’t want me to get mad about it, so instead he deleted the entire message thread 🙄 He didn’t think it was a big deal because it was just his sister, but I told him that the problem here is not that he deleted messages from his sister, but the fact that he deleted messages with the intent to hide them from me (just like he did during his A) and that this was very much wayward behaviour. After some thinking he said "I get it."

Prior to the A, I told him that something like this wouldn’t have necessarily been a big deal … but now it is and it will forever be. There have also been other instances (non A related) where he will do something without thinking about it and then I find out, it turns into an argument and he follows up with "I get it." Clearly he does not.

I know it’s early days for us, and I’m trying to show him the slightest bit of grace because he is trying in so many other ways, but I’m just so tired of him not taking a minute to think about and weigh the potential options on the table and the consequences to each.

How long does it actually take for a WS to "get it?"

I think that to answer exactly how long is different for everyone. But I will share my experience.

I would say at a year out I understood the full impact of my actions. I think the first 6 months was mostly both of us coming to terms with the bomb that had been set off in the marriage. The bs in shock, we feel a great deal of shame that can be inhibiting to growth at first.

The next six months there was a lot of what I call "toe stubbing" meaning I would say or do something and not realize how it might land. I was doing IC, and trying my best but it definitely wasn’t perfect. I was learning and trying and growing though and I think that was evident to my husband.

The following six months far less toe stubbing, and more intentionality.

It’s gradual, but continuous progress should be evident. It does take time and effort to change and grow, and we all start from different points of what needs to change.

Thanks H/O. I figured just as much it is still early in the process and clearly he’s still learning and working towards that understanding. My WH describes being around me as "walking on eggshells." I’ve reiterated over and over again that I don’t expect perfection, but I expect honesty.

My oh my. I just want to say huge thank you to @hikingout and @ff4152 for giving so much of their time in answering the betrayed spouses questions here. They helped me so much on my journey as I think our time frames are very similar. But I seldom come on here nowadays, but started watching something on tv last night that evolved into the husband talking about his affair partner. ('I'm Innocent' don't watch if you are still hurting). It literally open up an old would made me silently cry, even though we are as reconciled as we can be and planning our retirement. The cuts are deep and sometimes just open up again, the pain still cuts through. So my knee jerk reaction was to log back on and I came to the page I was last logged on at and saw the same names helping others. I also need to mention @bravesirrobin too. I know how helpful your commitment to this site will have been for so many people navigating one of the worst experiences of their lives. Thank you so much for all that you do 💕💕💕

Hi Sunny! I remember you too. You were always kind. I appreciate your kindness here too. I left for a while too :-). Great to hear from you.

Hi Sunny

It’s great to hear from you and that things have improved in your life.

I really hope that your healing journey continues and you both find happiness in your retirement!

All the best!

I think this has been asked before, I just can’t find the post, so sorry but:
WS: If you had an immediate ‘bubble bursting’ moment the minute you were discovered, how did you eventually know that you were definitely not going to commit infidelity again as opposed to feeling a ‘ temporary’ shame and horror at what you had done? Was discovery and seeing the trauma caused simply enough to make you ‘know’ this was something you would never do again?

When the affair ended, I immediately went to therapy and then decided to confess on my own two months later. I already never wanted to do it again.

For me, it wasn’t as if I had a temptation to cheat our entire marriage. I felt so lost and depressed afterwards, it was the worst set of decisions I ever made. So after dday it really wasn’t about not cheating anymore. It was more, how the hell did I get here, and how do I climb my way out. Telling him was devastating.

For me the obstacle was moreso trying to deal with my overwhelming feelings of shame and despair enough that I could begin to face and address his devastation. And unwinding all the brainwashing I had done to myself to be able to answer the toughest questions I ever had to face in my life.

I don’t think working through it is about not just deciding to cheat, to me that’s the bare minimum. Anyone walking around trying to white knuckle that is a walking time bomb. What it really takes is recognizing why you did it and changing those things about how you conduct your life. For example, I was an excessive people pleaser who spent years prioritizing everyone else but unconsciously resenting it because I didn’t feel it was ever returned. What I learned is that you have to be responsible for your own happiness and allow others to be responsible for theirs. Putting that in balance took me from martyrdom of feeling like I had to do these things to be loved to realizing I never felt loved because I didn’t believe I was worthy. I had starved myself of receiving because I was too busy being transactional.

Ws have something out of balance with them, and for me the cheating was a symptom of big issues that I needed to get under control. That to me is the work. Not the wanting to cheat, ironically wasn’t nearly the obstacle I had to get over. That to me was cured just by how I felt about having that experience. And I did experience limerance which is like an addictive state, so that too was an obstacle I had to work to overcome. I was treated for OCD (the two are interrelated).

I really would rather stick a fork in my eye than ever considering something like that again. It took years and years of our lives that could have been happy or at least normal. And for what? Nothing that was worth it.

Thank you hikingout. All of your responses (to my posts and others') have been so helpful and insightful.

Were there questions your BS asked you that you just could not understand why it was so important to your spouse?

What were the things you had trouble understanding about your BS‘ s healing process?

What did your BS do that you became frustrated with? (At least at first, maybe later you realized you shouldn’t be frustrated)

How important was it to you to feel you would someday be forgiven?