SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's okay for you to be angry. Really, deeply, profoundly angry.

I have been. Sometimes I still am. In the beginning, it was a white hot rage. I would drive around or walk alone ranting through clinched teeth until it had subsided to the point I could be in the home with her. Going on three years later, it is more of a slow burn, a lingering resentment that pushes snarky comments just to the tip of my tongue sometimes but never out of my mouth.

I used “I” in the post for continuity with the concept that “I” am not seeking to impose consequences upon my wife. Certainly it is “we” who are reconciling. And yes, with the exception of her delay and difficulty in getting around to making a full and complete disclosure, she has done everything that I have asked of her and pretty much everything on the SI checklist for cheaters.

To her credit, she has stood firm in the face of countless sessions of interrogation and recrimination. I have never, not once in over three decades together, put my hands on her in anger or called her an epithet, and I’m not going to start now. She did, as you say, need to see what she had done. I suppose that is her consequence.

I’ve done EMDR. I’ve been to countless therapy sessions. I’ve got a couple of confidants to whom I can vent when I need an ear.

There are several thousand pounds of plates and sandbags and kettlebells and dumbbells in my garage that are moved with great force almost daily. There is a pathway in the woods near my house that I walk often.

Looking at my log I see that I have walked for exercise 34 times for over 70 miles, as well as 30 kettlebell sessions, 8 stationary bike rides of 30 minutes each, and a couple of TRX sessions as well just so far in 2021.

Suffice to say, I find healthy ways to purge the anger by physical activity. Once in a while there is what hikingout earlier today called a “grudge fuck” but what might be more eloquently called “hysterically bonding the stuffing out of her” that provides some salve. Turns out, she likes it.

Anyway, I have felt the anger. I feel it daily. I process it. And “we” are a work in progress.

[This message edited by Wiseoldfool at 1:20 PM, March 12th (Friday)]

That sounds like a healthy path, or at least a "not unhealthy" as one can be when one is a BS in circumstances like this.

My own case was the opposite of yours in many ways. I found out more or less in real time (I believe the A was going on for 6-8 months before she disclosed) when my WxGF came home one weekday morning after not coming home the evening before and told me she was seeing another man and dumping me for him.

My rage was in private, without her present. My "grudge fucking" was done with unwitting women I met in the aftermath. My healing didn't occur until years later, after I purged my resentment and pain via dysfunctional and unhealthy behavior and started learning to enjoy my own company and living a healthy life (both spiritually and physically).

Sorry for the digression.

I have never, not once in over three decades together, put my hands on her in anger or called her an epithet

I'm certainly not suggesting that you do either, but in some fashion it is healthy, possibly even critically necessary, that you express your rage to her in a way that makes it crystal clear what you are feeling. It's difficult to express anger without using angry words and tones. Have you done that?

I have expressed to my wife in exquisite and precise language, free from angry words and tones, the fury that her prolonged betrayal and lengthy cover up have provoked in me. I make a living as a wordsmith painting persuasive narratives in writing and orally with words appropriate for public consumption. She honestly might rather I had just called her a c*** and punched a hole in the wall than turn my skill set on her like I did.

She’s quite clear, because of my words, how angry what she has done has made me.

Time is the tough part to explain to people who discovered infidelity as it happened.

Infidelity reveals time doesn’t work in our minds like it does on paper.

The betrayal feels like it just happened — the pain is brand spanking new.

I think that’s the key take away is that people new to this thread allow themselves some extra room to recover. Our inner logic trying to suggest we should be farther ahead in our healing because the infidelity was (however many) years ago.

In those years, some WS get a head start on learning from their choices, some don’t.

So I feel like my first post on SI belongs here, it was this thread that made me join after all but ... well I don't know IF I belong here. There is just so much fog and confusion over it all, after reading SI for months all signs are neon lit and flashing saying he cheated...sigh... Where to begin.

First the confession was done in sleep, he has never confessed consciously. More on this right at the end.

Married 15yrs, together 19yrs. This happened around yrs5-6 into the marriage so 8yrs ago. Killer is I KNEW, I just frickin' knew it.... but I also don't know it, not 100%, and that's what is messing me up so much you guys.

I should have left that first endless pit sinking feeling in my gut. If only I left at the first internal alarm "what would my life be like now"

I should have left when he started to work out, something he never had any interest in during the whole time I knew him. And when questions he got defensive about it. And when I wanted to join him it was a "work" gym so I couldn't join in.

I should have left when his clothing changed, his grooming improved. New items like ties and suits showed up but these expensive items were never reflected in our accounts (gifts? or secret account??)

I should have left when he checked out and was on his laptop and I'd only get grunts of recognition.

I should have left when his work times changed.

I should have left when he started to get soft in bed.

I should have left when my attempts past that where brushed aside with snide remarks along the lines of "you only ever have one thing on your mind, grow up".

I should have left when I found wrapped up gifts that never made it to me. (one was a giant box of chocolates, about $300 worth of box.)

I should have left when I found the burner phone in the car.

I should have left when I finally managed to find the time to sneak away with the burner phone and read the message that this person (was saved under number so never had name) was "so excited" to see him next and "can not wait".

I should have left when I went to hug him that time and he jerked back, and when I hugged him again he smelt different, not perfume, but not him (soap?)

I should have left when his behavior became erratic and dangerous to himself and to me (he went from the most cautious driver to having lost his license due to extreme speeding. He started fighting with me in new volcanic volatile ways over nothing, like he was ready to fight before he got in the door.

... and the nail in my doormat coffin was I should have left when he disappeared on me for a week, me not knowing where he went only he "wanted a holiday" and he would call me when he got to the "hotel" (ended up being a friends cabin apparently with no cell reception).... he never called... for 8 days. Those 8 days were hell and I was out the door almost daily.

He had changed almost over night, the first 4yrs of marriage were amazing, he went away on a business trip at the start of yr 5 and returned a different man, he was like that for 2 yrs. All those things I listed about when I should have packed and left, that was spread out over those 2 yrs, the pinnacle being the 8 day gap and during that entire time I was gaslighted, big time, to the point of him suggesting therapy to "fix me" because how could I "sabotage our beautiful marriage with such hateful accusations", and the sad thing is I started to truly second guess myself, second guess that constant anxious gnawing gut feeling, second guessing my reality.

So like a chump I stayed. But I knew it, deep down, but thanks to the gaslighting I also wasn't quite sure.... it was like I was 87% sure. His excuses, and there were always explanations and excuses for everything, seem legit (I never knew about sites like this all those years ago, turns out it's the stock standard bull-sh*t from the cheater handbook I had no idea existed back then.)

Anyway 2-ish weeks after the 8 day vanishing act he approaches me white as a sheet, his testicles feel like stones, we went to the doctor, we went to get scans, that night he was admitted to hospital, stage 3 seminoma, both testicles.

Here ends the life of the wife and the start of the caregiver through years 7-10 of the M. Won't go into it, those who have been through it know it's a baptism of fire you can never be ready for and it changes the M and it changes you.

Thoughts of uncertain-but-certain betrayal were there but how much of a stone cold witch was I for even trying to bring such a thing up?!! So I started forgetting about it, focused on him. Over this time he returned to the husband I knew, like within a month and then when it was bad it got worse, quit job to become full time career worse.

Truly I don't know how he survived and ended up in remission, there is still one mass on the kidney that is still being monitored every 3 months with a scan and blood tests but he got through it. Naturally him relying on me like he did, us becoming best friends (we were friends before but not to the level we became)... IDK... so hard to articulate how much more enriching my M became, but he has never loved me or shown love like that ever.

But, in the early hours of the cold nights, I always, at the back of my mind, I stew over those 2 yrs. Or I wouldn't have thought about it for months and a song would come on or a TV show would trigger something, not always about cheating, a ad on TV for soap used to remind me of that night he came home smelling so different, etc etc. I tried, truly, I thought "it's been so long now, the M feels strong now, he has shown so much kindness and love unlike ever before"... but I can't forget you guys, I've cried at myself in anger "why can't you forget" but it's not just forgetting I still feel those feelings... again so hard to put to words. Unsure if you get it?

Didn't know where to add this so I'll choose to add it now, I've gone to so many IC to try and get closure but, they're right, I'm being stubborn forgiving and moving on.

Fast forward 2021 and the questionable DDays... DNights in my case.

Due to the treatments my H has become unstable on his feet when he gets tired and he fell about 5 weeks ago now, hit his head, no lasting damage but there was some swelling and an interesting side effect has arisen from it, the knock has resulted in him talking in his sleep, apparently it happens when impact to this section of the head happens and I'm told it'll go. Unfortunately for me when he sleep talks he relives his affairs, from what I can tell there was three, two co-workers (small office, knew the women but he hasn't worked there for years now, we don't even live in that state anymore.) One was a young gym-junkie who never liked me, kick-to-the-gut was one of them was nice to the point of being a friend but she was the co-worker that he left as my H on that very first conference but came back a different man (he told me the co-worker was a guy, it was this woman) and one was and a random miss 3rd who I still haven't gotten a name but he "can't get enough of" her privates and he "loves having her p***y on tap in the cabin" (remember 8 missing days = cabin). I'm getting broken details but they're painfully graphic, hard to hear your husband bitch about you to a dream of a OW, put your body down and compare your negative parts to a mystery woman and yes unfortunately he re-lives acts to the point I had to punch his arm to stop it because seeing him move... nope... just I wish you never ever EVER go through that.

Yet...

when awake...

he still denies it. It's so frustrating!! He acts so hurt and wounded too. Sometimes angry "why can't you get past nothing happened?!"

I've recorded him and again he claims it's not real, he shouldn't be held accountable for his dreams and fantasies. Well hells-bells to that one. And yes he gets defensive about it.

Having said ALL of this, other then those 2yrs, he has been brilliant, I have never felt so loved before but... but.... IDK, 19yrs together this happened 8yrs ago, I'm p*ssed I'll never get him admitting it, it's not like I'll leave, we can R and I won't have this weekly, sometimes daily gnawing in my gut.

With no evidence but sleep talking recordings I truly don't know how to get a confession out of him, I've read enough posts on here over the past couple of months to know something happened, if his dreams are memory recalls then the worst did happen (even a pregnancy scare which ended the relationship with the gym-junkie... for me this is bad because we always used condoms, we as a almost 20yr couple, have never had unsafe sex sorry TMI but it's his thing, he is child-free and important to point out since the dreams are graphic so he wasn't so concerned about that with them ) ...

So yeah. I don't even know if I belong here TBH, just so much fog and denials and second guessing. But if it happened, it happened YEARS ago. I'm more angry and confused then raw and miserable like I was during that time you know.

More than anything, for once, I want the gnawing feeling in my gut to go you know.

Anyway thanks for reading this far.

[This message edited by LostInHisFog at 9:48 AM, March 14th (Sunday)]

Lostinhisfog,

That’s a tough story. I’m sorry you’re here, but you belong and you’re been heard. You’re not crazy. There is a pattern of deceit here. The disorienting effect of realizing that you spent several years living a life that was not the life you thought you were living is extremely traumatic.

Care for yourself. Your husband is not yet capable of helping you (if only by telling you the truth once and for all), so you’re going to have to do it for yourself.

WOF: There are so many similarities with our stories.

Our marriage was awful well before my WHs A. We both felt pretty hopeless on how to fix all of our relationship issues. I checked out emotionally and physically, and obviously he did as well, but in a much more devastating way. If I had been paying even the slightest bit of attention, it would have taken me 3 seconds to find out what he was up to. To be honest, I didn’t really care at the time. Still, I had a gut feeling something was going on. In 2017, after the A had ended, I found a Snapchat of his and grew suspicious. He explained his having one, and the Snapchat score he had, as something he did with coworkers to joke around with each other. I had no proof of anything different (unfortunately I wasn’t Snapchat savvy at the time), so I let it go. It would come up in my mind every once in a while. I’d ask and he would be dismissive.

The years between his A and d-day were night and day compared to our old marriage. He became almost a different person. He started sharing his location with me, was open with his phone, and would go out of his way to prove where he was if he was running late or anything. He started treating me better, and actually communicated with me about our problems instead of avoiding them. He began initiating sex with me almost daily, something we had struggled with for years, (he would only initiate once a month) I couldn’t have asked for a better marriage, or the friendship we had grown.

I didn’t have a dream, but I had a sit up in the bed moment where I thought once again about that damn Snapchat. I literally prayed out loud to God that if there was something I needed to know, He would reveal it to me. If there wasn’t, He’d help me let it go. That’s when I hacked his Snapchat, and slowly was able to discover the truth. He didn’t admit to a PA until I contacted the OW the very next day. From there he told me most of the truth, but did some minimizing. I think within a 2 weeks I had the entire story. Well, all that I will ever have.

Since then, it’s been a shit show. Lol He’s been remorseful. I haven’t made any of this easy on him, that’s for damn sure. He can become impatient when I ask the same question 100 times, but with little variations, almost trying to trap him. That’s how he says it feels. Other than minor lapses of patience, there’s not much more I could ask from him, short of a being the man who invents the time machine.

I also feel like the timing of discovery has played a vital role in our R. It’s a mind fuck to know if I had found out while it was active, or even a year or so sooner, we’d likely be divorced. I don’t know how to feel about it. It does feel like his dishonesty to me over the years has benefited him. What’s fucked up is I think it has benefited me to some extent as well. Maybe that’s wrong. Idk.

[This message edited by Underserving at 3:45 PM, March 14th (Sunday)]

Underserving,

Meh-ing through R

Yep. Ec fucking zactly.

How long was your husband’s affair?

It was about 7 months long in total. She gave him her number and they started talking on the phone in September of 2016. End of October/early November he started going over to her apartment at 6 in the morning before work (telling me he was meeting up with a coworker for breakfast) He stopped the physical part of the A mid December, but kept the communication going until April when he officially ended it.

Him stopping the sex, while she very much wanted it to continue, has been a big factor for me as well. I don’t think he deserves any brownie points, but it’s helped me feel better that the sex must not have been that earth shattering. Or at the very least, the guilt got to him enough that it wasn’t worth it anymore.

I don’t think he deserves any brownie points, but it’s helped me feel better that the sex must not have been that earth shattering. Or at the very least, the guilt got to him enough that it wasn’t worth it anymore.

Same. Of course she says it was never as good as sex with me, blah blah blah.

Underserving,

Were you ever able to get a total number of sexual encounters with any certainty? Would it matter to you if it were a lot more than the number you’ve been given?

My wife “can’t remember” how many times she snuck over to his house to have sex, but guesses it was “about 12.” I’ve rounded that number up for her, by a good bit. By the time that started, they’d had sex probably 12 times already. Realistic minimum is 20, realistic maximum is way more than that.

It bothers me, this difference between the reasonably known number and the potential max. Not sure why. I mean, the difference between 0 and 1 is the big difference.

Wow, there was a lot of activity here while I was distracted.

Time is the tough part to explain to people who discovered infidelity as it happened.

I got to experience both versions at the same time, in many ways the old one hit me harder at least in the initial shock. It took a lot more forensic digging to make sense of the reality of that part of my life.

Suffice to say, I find healthy ways to purge the anger by physical activity. Once in a while there is what hikingout earlier today called a “grudge fuck” but what might be more eloquently called “hysterically bonding the stuffing out of her” that provides some salve. Turns out, she likes it.

I stopped in my tracks when reading her post, it was a new term for me but, needed no clarification. I have also found physical activity to be a great way to process anger.

Time is the tough part to explain to people who discovered infidelity as it happened.

Infidelity reveals time doesn’t work in our minds like it does on paper.

The betrayal feels like it just happened — the pain is brand spanking new.

I think that’s the key take away is that people new to this thread allow themselves some extra room to recover. Our inner logic trying to suggest we should be farther ahead in our healing because the infidelity was (however many) years ago.

In those years, some WS get a head start on learning from their choices, some don’t.

^^^ This.

The time in between is interesting in terms of the WS.

I've read more than one, more than several blurbs from degreed, experienced, credentialed therapists who assert that it's a good outcome if the wayward realizes the mistake, feels guilt, feels remorse, doesn't do that thing again.

There is a school of thought that was widely prevalent many years ago, and I am under the impression that it is still the European model, that divulging a sexual and/or romantic indiscretion one is not likely to repeat to one's permanent partner is unnecessary, particularly cruel and disrespectful.

There is a concurrent school of thought that spouses are only human, and that navigating a human lifetime requires each of us to look the other way on occasion if we want to continue with one person for most of that lifetime.

I've read, even recently, therapists who still espouse this/these points of view.

Against this, almost the whole of SI argues the loss of the betrayed's agency, which is not an invalid point.

In my experience, there are multiple dimensions involved in that lapse of time between the betrayal and the discovery.

This is true regardless of whether no further infidelity occurred during that interim.

The focus shifts from the actual infidelity to the whys.

My husband felt squicky enough and guilty enough about the infidelity that he never did that particular thing again.

He never got physically involved with another woman again.

OKAY THEN.

Good enough, for what it's worth, which is plenty,

but that doesn't address WTF happened in the first place.

My husband told me, unequivocally, that his FOO informed what happened:

"Men do this."

"This is just what men do."

"No harm, no foul."

"What she doesn't know, won't hurt her."

"Men do this."

"If I'm presented with this opportunity, I *need* to do this- because *this* is what *MEN* do."

"No harm, no foul."

"Men."

*Opportunity.*

This pivot point presents itself.

It's been a pivot point from the beginning, in our entire marriage.

OMG, ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME???

AS A YOUNG ATTRACTIVE WOMAN, I HAD FUCKING 'OPPORTUNITIES' GALORE. DICKS RAINING FROM THE SKY. (SOMETIMES, VAGINAS.) YOU'RE KIDDING, RIGHT???

I was dealing with a plethora of ridiculously cheap opportunity, that would have cheapened me, that would have cheapened HUSBAND, that would have cheapened US, and I realized that, and I loved Husband, and I loved us, and I did not.

The first fucking 'cheap' opportunity that presented itself, Husband punched the FOO narrative, AND HERE WE GO.

And the very fact that THE FIRST FUCKING OPPORTUNITY THAT PRESENTED ITSELF WIPED OUT OUR VOW, NOT ONLY OUR VOW, BUT ALL OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND PROMISE AND PERSONAL LOVE AND VALUE THAT WAS US, THAT CHEAP FUCKING SHIT WIPED US OUT, OH BUT FOO SAYS THAT'S WHAT MEN DO, HAVE A 'WIFE' AND HAVE SOME 'FUN,'

And then he buried it.

And then we buried it.

But the narrative that informed it,

And the narrative that buried it,

continued.

And it informed our lives,

In between that betrayal and the discovery.

And now, here we all are.

What happened back then, is.

Honestly, it's multigenerational shit you somehow, most likely genuinely, did not deal with at that moment, way back when.

You do not need to stay in it.

Duplicate

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 9:50 AM, March 15th (Monday)]

There is a school of thought that was widely prevalent many years ago, and I am under the impression that it is still the European model, that divulging a sexual and/or romantic indiscretion one is not likely to repeat to one's permanent partner is unnecessary, particularly cruel and disrespectful.

***

Against this, almost the whole of SI argues the loss of the betrayed's agency, which is not an invalid point.

Most of the time I think I’d gladly sacrifice my “agency” to return to ignorant bliss. I was really happy before I learned of her affair. I’m not sure how much good it’s done to find out.

Most of the time I think I’d gladly sacrifice my "agency" to return to ignorant bliss.

If I had a time machine I would use it irresponsibly to ensure DDay happened 9 years earlier.

If I had a time machine I would use it irresponsibly to ensure DDay happened 9 years earlier.

Or that, because at least then my choice would have been quite clear. It’s the delay between her affair and my discovery of it that is so problematic, because in the mean time we built a great marriage. Or at least as great a marriage as can be built when one person knows all the facts and the other does not. Was I “really happy” or did I just think I was really happy? Doesn’t matter, I was happy and until I found out about the affair I had no reason to question that.

Was I “really happy” or did I just think I was really happy? Doesn’t matter

I actually think it does matter. In fact, I think it's the crux of R or D in many cases. What I call the "ephemeral matter of the heart." A WS can check all the boxes and take all of the steps for R, but in the end, if the BS does not (or cannot) believe, in his heart, that the desire of the WS for him is genuine, R can't work. It is real, or ersatz? There isn't an objective way to quantify that. The BS either feels it, or not.

Most of the time I think I’d gladly sacrifice my “agency” to return to ignorant bliss. I was really happy before I learned of her affair. I’m not sure how much good it’s done to find out.

I much prefer knowing my reality. Now, I get to choose my path knowing what that reality is.

Ignorance isn’t bliss, it was just a world where only my wife know what our marriage was, and when I was valued and when I wasn’t.

The secret created distance between us.

The truth was horribly painful, but it did break that bubble that kept us from being an authentic couple.

It took that full five years to get back to bliss, and I like the real world much better than all the games and bad trades we had to play when her A was a secret.

It took a while to get through the pain and disappointment. I’ll never be “okay” that it happened, I’m just glad it set us up to rebuild this M into something far more honest than our old patterns of communication.

I guess maybe because during my era of ignorance, I always sensed a change, that something did go wrong, that our family ‘friend’ was too close for a while and then vanished. Despite the pain of her confession, it was good to know I wasn’t totally crazy. Just mostly crazy.