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It seems like, at least a part of you, had convinced yourself it was not as 'bad' as it was.

Oh, absolutely. It's pretty typical WS behavior to focus on the things that showed nominal integrity and/or "could have been worse." From there, it's a shorter jump than you'd think to airbrushing reality in your own head. No one wants to be the villain in their own story.

Be patient about the double post but I would really appreciate perspective on these questions:

Comparisons:

I think they are unavoidable.

---

When did you compare your Betrayed Partner with your AP (or APs)?

The comparison for the OM/OW "winning" when you fall for the affair is natural (at least in some moments / stages)?

Moments spent together, wishing you were with OM/OW or imagining how it could be with OM/OW?

Things you do together than you did in secret with OM/OW? What kind of emotions they elicit?

Does sexual comparison come up extremely often (in whatever extent, romantic or physical)?

Is it more intense before confessing / after confessing?

All those stories / lies that you said and maybe not confess yet, do they bring it up again?

Any regrets of things you did not have the chance to do with OM/OW that you are now stuck to do with your BS?

I wonder, the comparisons will never fully go away, whether you told the truth or not, there must be situations that bring it up.

The AP will always win after being chosen, for a period at least, or is permanent?

How does it compare to the sense of "freedom" you got from the affair?

How do you cope with your BS "knowing" or "feeling" there is, was, or likely will be (depending on the stage of betrayal), another person between the intimacy you and them share?

Regrets about moments who were better with either your BS / AP?

Last: if you manged to reconcile, does your BS stop comparing themselves to your OM/OW?

How long does it take (if it ever stops)?

- If you ever met by chance or heard about your AP, even years later, what's eliciting? And how about the above?

I only have half of the insight on these, can only speculate and that's always biased or ending up being blindsided

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 11:16 AM, Friday, March 13th]

Backfromthestorm, I did not compare the AP with my BH. My BH would have "won" on almost any comparison. I did compare how I felt with the AP to how I felt with my BH. I felt terrible around my BH, in some ways dead in the marriage, and around the AP I felt a sense of coming to life which I was not looking for, so the surprise of coming to life when I had unconsciously given up was part of the problem. Over time I learned how my own warped thinking created this mess and I was able to see everything much more clearly. Now, around my BH, I feel like a true version of myself and it feels wonderful. I know these are not answers to the questions you asked, but it feels like you are asking me what number is the sky. It's just not a question that makes any sense to me.

Thank you Pippin, is good insight.

Those are questions I mostly ask myself because I cannot make sense of.
Very possibly they are valid for some WS and not for others.

I am not sure how to express, I am kind of stuck on those questions.

Hi Backfromthestorm, I think it's extremely common for BS to compare themselves to the AP. My BH posted very little on SI and mostly in the beginning several years ago, but I remember one thread in particular where he responded to this topic. Here it is - perhaps you will find some solace in feeling not alone in your feelings.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=638170

In the book Why Religion, Elaine Pagels tells the story of the death of her child. He was diagnosed at birth or shortly after with a condition that meant he would not outlive childhood. She knew that from the very beginning and made every decision about his life with the utmost care and wisdom - where to go to school, how much to tell other people, how to spend their summers, etc. And yet, when he died in her arms at the age of 7, she was wracked with guilt and persistent, intrusive questions. Had she done enough? Should she have stayed closer to medical care? Should she have told him more about his condition? What could she have done to save him, or to make his life better or more meaningful? She was reflective enough to understand that this was her brain searching for a sense of control. Comparing yourself to the AP is a way for you to find a kind of logic in the situation. But it's a dead end road - there is an explanation for why this happened, but this is not it, and this direction will drive you crazy. There are ways out of this kind of compulsive, intrusive thinking. Hikingout (a wayward) describes the way she dealt with intrusive thoughts through OCD medication and the book The Power of Now by Eckhardt Tolle (see her recent thread The Work in the wayward forum). Maia's pinned thread Survival Guide is basically helping waywards deal with intrusive thoughts about their AP. Perhaps there are similar threads in the BS forums that I'm not familiar with, or in the healing library. I had my own ways of dealing with intrusive thoughts. But the main thing is, you have to realize that you need to deal with them. Not indulge them, not continue to think them, but say to yourself, these are intrusive questions and they will not help me. I need to stop. And use the techniques that you discover to help you.

I just posted about the book Stranger: A Memoir of Marriage about a BS who was left by her husband with no explanation. She wrote in a factual this is what happened way about what happened to her. I wrote out a novella about what I think set me up for the affair. I think that this kind of writing, whether you have an audience or not, can be intensely therapeutic. Not whys. Just whats. You might try that as a start for figuring out how to deal with the questions that are haunting you.

I feel like pippin. It was more comparing how I felt. But it was not because the AP was great.

It was because I didn’t have to deal with real stuff.

There is a lot of self adulation in affairs. So that feeling of being alive was because I was able to pretend to myself I was someone younger, sexier, more interesting. It was totally about being in the role I was performing.

We have talked about how I felt like my husband was cut from better cloth than me. Seeing someone that I thought maybe I had a little more upper hand than I actually did made me feel in control. It was false of course, but it was all performative.

I don’t agree with everything Esther pearl says about affairs or all her philosophies but many people have an affair to meet a different version of themselves. That resonates with me. The affair was more about not knowing who I was anymore now that I had reached what I considered the pinnacle of my career, my kids were raised and the blank slate in front of me combined with deep burnout, felt like a death to me. I couldn’t identify it as grief, or existential questions. It was simply a transition that I was blindsided and I was armed with emotional immaturity, lack of self awareness, and generally feeling like it was time to reinvent everything without motivation or even an idea of what a path forward looked like.

Seriously, most people who I have spoken to in the hindsight of an affair can see the AP could have been anyone. The emotional climate of an affair is not the same as dating and falling in love. It’s two emotionally unavailable people who aren’t really in the others life. I didn’t know his friends, his family, or anything that brought any real context that you have in a normal relationship. You aren’t dreaming of a future usually, you are mostly just in this push pull dynamic that is nothing but chaos. And you don’t have a plan past the minute you are in other how do I Lee getting the good feelings.

It’s the cognitive dissonance that causes all the distortion. You must feed yourself stories about what you are doing that justifies it to yourself. The it must be love, It’s all a big fat lie. You aren’t doing anything but using this other person as an audience and a validation that you still have prowess.

Versus at home where maybe you feel invisible because you don’t put the effort to connect. In my case, I didn't know the best paths towards connection. To me, it was always being pleasing to him so he would want me, but the more I played the role the less I was really there. And as a result, the less he could see of me. I expressing needs would have required me to identify them.

I didn’t feel emotionally safe with my husband to be able to express them anyway. Because when I did try, they came across as vague complaints rather than stating "I need more of this". And his response was what you would expect if you are trying to reason with someone only knows how to bitch about stuff. And then if he did it then I assumed he didn’t want to, he was just trying to appease me. So there was no winning for him, and I am sure that didn’t make him feel very safe either.

Over time this shut me down.

In comes the ap, it’s easy and fun and I don’t really need anything from him other than to feel like someone wanted to do those things. That I wasn’t just the domestic partner, who is obligated.

This is all distorted thinking. And most affairs are that.

After it was over, I definitely never compared. There was no comparison. The sex was always better with my husband for example, for me the truly knowing each other, the real form of love, the familiarity of each others bodies, sex inside a long lasting relationship can’t compare to awkward fumbling, being in your head about performance- and even after I would replay my own performance only.

Because again, this is about me being wanted, enough, validated. Not really about sex. I think often betrayed men can only imagine being in it for better, different or more sex. But when it comes down to it even most male ws when you talk through it a lot of it for them is about insecurity. Pain is often more of a driver of someone having an affair than any other motivation.

I don’t know if I hit all your questions. Like Pippen, I sort of feel like what you are asking doesn’t connect for me with my experience. The last thing you asked is what if I ran into him. I would be horrified. My stomach just turns thinking about it. This is the man I was my worst self with, who did not deserve my body, time, and energy. This is the person who helped me hurt the person most precious and cherished to me. That would be a terrible thing to happen, and I hope it never does. This would not illicit anything in me but guilt , regret, remorse, shame, and horror.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:35 PM, Tuesday, March 17th]

I guess those questions truly are because I wish I could reconnect with her.

I have no fears of insecurities towards her AP, really they are a complete different specimen. There is no competition.

But she chose them. With at least one she had sex. And after my "Betrayed fog"cleared, after an Ocean of pain lasting 17 years, she feels "tainted".

And I don't like that.
If I could enter in her head, really understand, I might be able to break the wall of ice that is forming in my heart.
We have a daughter, she needs us together and loving, not pulling away.

That's why those questions are coming up, I wish I could find the key.

I understand.

I don’t think there is a magical key. It’s not something you can force yourself to do. You can maybe give it time to see if she can give you what you need to know, but it’s not going to be something you can logic, it’s going to be something that rings true, and things have to ring true over and over.

Here is a way you need to start to change your understanding of it;

But she chose them

No she chose herself. She didn’t choose him or you.

AP’s tend to present themselves through two things: proximity/convenience and someone who is willing to cheat with you. That narrows it.

She at one time chose you as a free woman ln out in the world. As someone she could have her family meet, someone who can legitimately be in her life.

She chose him to be someone to fill a void in her she can’t fill herself. No one can do that for her but her.

That doesn’t give her a pass. It doesn’t mean it’s time to connect with her, and you may never again. But it’s not a switch you can flip back on. It’s something that doesn’t even flicker in the beginning.

But you can’t force yourself, and you aren’t the one failing everyone here. Take the pressure off. Either separate, or say okay I am going to eat but decenter her for a while and I will see where I am in six months. The reason that I say that is because as long as your focus is trying to squeeze feelings out that are rightfully and naturally there due to her actions, you will be zapping your energy that you could be using for yourself. She will have to learn to regulate herself in uncertainty, and so will you if you choose to stay for a period of time. But there is richness in that acceptance of path unknown that will crystallize a direction in time. This time of detachment will produce more objectivity.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:10 AM, Wednesday, March 18th]