SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

20yrs

It boils down to one simple fact- Cheaters have already proven to be poor at empathy- If we were really capable of understanding and acknowledging the consequences of our actions, none of us would likely be in this boat. SO consequently, when attitudes change the assumption is that everyone’s attitudes change. Simply put, the binary answer is:

“This is what I want now, so it must be what you want too.”

See my earlier points about blindness here- This is where our self-blindness bleeds over into blind to the impacts.

With time it may change, but a cheater needs to grasp that their attitudes are far from shared, and that’s not an automatic occurrence.

Hi 20yrsagoBS.

Why do Waywards expect Betrayeds to forgive?

Do we? I’m not sure if it’s expect. For me at least it was hope. But I assumed not. In fact, it’s been 5 years (last week was our antiversary) and he has not said he has forgiven me. And I’m sort of okay with that. In many ways, what I did was unforgivable. At this point, my hoping he’ll forgive me really has nothing to do with me and is all about me wanting what’s best for him and his emotional health. From everything I’ve read and learned, forgiveness does not mean being okay with it and it may actually help my BH by releasing whatever he’s still dealing with inside that’s holding him back. Mind you, we are in R.

Unless you mean forgive as a way to say rugsweep?

Hi Trexor92.

Waywards how would you react if your bs asked for a hall pass? Hysterical bonding has caused my libido to skyrocket but now every time I try to get it on with my WW I can't get her AP out of my head. I also need to know if other women find me appealing. I've been reading a lot about ENM and I think I need to have this experience

I tend to shy away from posts like yours because it usually devolves into a no-win argument. Plus, it’s your first post on SI and instead of posting your story or asking the many BS’s here for advice, your first foray is to ask WS’s about how we would feel about an RA.

But I recently read a post that answered this question beautifully. I’m just sorry I don’t remember who posted it and I’m going to butcher it too, so I’m sorry to that original poster.

In short, the message was “Don’t Be Wayward.”

Going outside your marriage is Wayward. Having sex with someone not your spouse is Wayward. Forget the whole argument of how it brings you down to her level and it becomes a “you did it too” thing. And no matter how much you say “but you did it first and I needed it,” you still did it. So, rugsweeping ensues and no one is happy or healthy. Forget all of that. Why would you want to be Wayward? Justifying infidelity by saying you need to have such and such experience or in order to fill a hole you have inside you is the most Wayward thought process there is. That is how many of us got here. Everything you wrote is Wayward. Don’t be Wayward. If you can’t heal with your WW then leave. Get a D and move on.

It's possible that Mrs. Walloped is referring to my post in the Madhatter thread. I don't think it's a guideline violation for me to repost it here, since it's mine and doesn't disclose anything specific about another member.

I don't know that there is a "supposed to" when it comes to revenge affairs, because the overarching "supposed to" is that you're not supposed to. Hiding the intention to pursue someone else is wayward. Using outside sex as a band-aid for self-esteem issues is wayward. Blaming your partner for the choices you make is wayward. Resentment leading to entitlement leading to self-justification is wayward.

Why be wayward? Leave your marriage and fuck anyone you want. If the answer is that you feel you deserve the perks of the A without losing the benefits of the M, that's the most classic wayward argument of all.

As far as hall passes go: I allowed one, for an ONS. My BH took me up on it, pretty much for the same reasons you describe, that he needed to confirm that another woman would want him. He regrets it. He accomplished that goal, but he used another person to do it. It's not that easy for a married man to go out and get NSA sex, even ENM sex, without having that partner be hoping for something else. He feels guilty about the real woman who was just a prop for his own ego. That kind of relationship for self-validation is wayward thinking; it's why we say over and over that the affair isn't about the AP, it's about the WS.

Out in the ENM community, even couples looking to play with a third are dismissed as "unicorn hunters" because that's the mythical creature everyone wants: a single woman who offers sex with no expectations in return. If you mean polyamory, which is forming true intimate relationships with others, that's a total paradigm shift, and you would (a) need to be prepared to share that partner with others, too, and (b) need to support that same freedom for your wife. No experienced poly person would agree to be part of a mess where their new relationship was designed to fix someone's infidelity trauma.

That leaves you with the option of a sex worker, but validation is meaningless from someone you had to pay.

Yes! I’m sorry, BSR that I couldn’t remember that it was you who posted it and as I knew I would, I totally messed up your post, because it was so succinct and explained so clearly how every reason I’ve ever seen here why an RA would be “justified” is basically wayward thinking. So in the end it all boils down to “he or she did it so I want to do it too and if he or she doesn’t like it, tough noogies. I’ll file for D.” And the response should be, then file for D and then go have sex with whomever you want. But ususally when an RA is a suggestion the WS doesn’t want D, so it becomes a power or control thing. “I can do this and you have no grounds to complain and if you don’t like it or accept it, then it’s D.” And that’s it. Or it’s a way to inflict pain on the WS, like tit for tat. Regardless, none of the reasons or thinking are healthy.

You did fine with it, Mrs W!

What is ENM?

JBWD

The hostility is a byproduct of some of this same emotional disconnect. Anger is a mask that is used to prevent hurt- So to keep from conceding the truth of what a cheater has done, it frequently is masked as anger. If really stopped to examine, I could have articulated my sadness at having been so selfish and caused such pain, but instead I used words to deflect and fuel some other powerful emotion, my misdirected anger.

This sounds like what my WH describes

Mickie, ENM is ethical non monogamy.

For those WS who did IC, how would you explain the benefit? Particularly if you were skeptical yourself at first?! How would you describe what you’ve gotten out of it to someone who is skeptical?

TLDR backstory for my question (Our A story in Bio)... My FWH initially went when I asked. He has been doing everything I ask, even if not always perfectly. He only had a few individual IC appts and we had two MC (which the practice does as a joint session with both people and their IC). Then pandemic. His therapist would only do by phone and he just refuses. Can’t handle the idea of phone call for that long (with anyone for any purpose. Lol). Frankly I don’t think he had really clicked with that IC anyway. The topic has come up again. The logistics are still a nightmare but I’m exploring options. He just says he “doesn’t understand the point of it...” I’m struggling to articulate it.

[This message edited by GTeamReboot at 10:42 PM, August 10th (Monday)]

GTeam,

I did IC even before D-day as I knew I wasn't right. That being siad, I was lucky to find someone who I connected with right away. She helped me understand my selfishness, she helped me come to understand that I had depression, and she took me to task on my bullshit and deflection.

MC however was more meaningful for me. That is where I saw my BW's pain, where we learned how to communicate with each other, how to be open and not become defensive.

MC kept me in it.

Hi GTeamReboot.

For those WS who did IC, how would you explain the benefit? Particularly if you were skeptical yourself at first?! How would you describe what you’ve gotten out of it to someone who is skeptical?

I found two big benefits. One was that I learned a lot about myself, my FOO issues and how I think and process. I don’t mean in some kind of “finding yourself” kind of way. I behaved in certain ways and processed information and thought things because of my background and history and upbringing and I had no real understanding that I was doing that or why. The second is that I developed coping mechanisms and tools recognize it and to change that or at least deal with it in a healthy way.

Without getting too detailed, I was wired to think I was a horrible person who no one could possibly love and everything I did was bad or wrong. And my way of trying to prove that I was worthwhile was to be a perfectionist. To be the perfect daughter, wife, mother and neighbor. Not understating that and then not having the tools to deal with that allowed me to make bad choices which ended in my affair. Understanding how I thought and why I thought the way I did helped me identify those things and then we were able to work on specific tools and reframing techniques. I spent a lot of time on CBT, which helped me tremendously because it gave me the tools to change the way I heard things and thought about things and just think and act differently. And as a result, I became more authentic. I was me and not ashamed of myself.

But you do have to go in open to it. If you’re forced into it and think it’s hokey nonsense, then as my husband says, garbage in garbage out. It’s not a magic pill. There was homework. Reading and exercises. Practice and implementing what I learned. If you’re not willing to do that, I don’t know how helpful it would be.

Hello, guess that is what one would say on a format such as this. I have not posted much on forums, well in fact never would be more accurate. If I break any rules or insult someone please know it not intentional. I am here looking for your help not to hurt anyone.

I am a BH and do appreciate the source of information on this site. Frankly after years of searching I can confirm not much exist to help betrayed husbands. In saying that I don't mean to take away from the resources offered to BW, it just different being a man in some areas. I can only image the pain is the very similar, I guess it does not matter what type of fire it was that burned you, your still burnt.

We have had years of IC, MC, etc. mainly on WW side of things, most of which she flat out lied through.

I have a somewhat technical question for waywards or it could also apply to betrayeds.

Before I get to the question some background may narrow the range of answers or at least make the question easier to process.

I caught my wife in an affair 22 years ago. She said it did not include intercourse or oral, etc. It was short in time frame, 3 months or so, according her and only 3 sexual attempts. (two interrupted)

She has showed no sign of cheating since.

Then just 4 years ago she confessed that there was more sexual activity but still no intercourse or oral, etc because AP could not get an erection. Regardless of my wives attempts. (both naked, plenty of time, no alcohol, both willing, etc)

Now, 3 plus years of TT. IC and MC counselling, etc. things are better because as you can image for all those years the lie she held actually held our marriage captive to deceit, withdrawal, lack of closeness and the all the favors betrayal brings to a relationship.

I am leaving 99% if details out of this post, as I could full pages that mean nothing more than pain to me and I am sure you have heard similar.

WW claims the lie was to protect our marriage.

Yes, I have forgiven, forgetting is not possible. (triggers are real, they can rob you of life)

I have confronted the AP both lately and years ago. He confirms her story and I am good at integrations. But regardless of my skills his creditably and my wives' are in question. He did mention that he did not have protection and was concerned about that. But their excursions were planned events.

This question has to do with her creditably, because if this is her story it seems pretty weak. I too, am a man and my wife is beautiful woman, now and then. But after 22 plus years of lying, deigning, then TT for years trust is hard. This 'lie' she kept tortured her and our marriage for years.

Ok, thank for your patience. I hope this not too detailed. I have had to withhold lots of adjectives to keeps emotions in check.

Have any of you, ever heard of any man that was willing to cheat on his family, not be able to get an erection while perusing AP?

My question is this:

My husband says that he has never stopped loving me during A. He looks convincing but it is hard to believe him as I can’t imagine myself doing those things to him even for a minute. Because I really loved him. Is it even possible to love your spouse and throw her(him) into a pitch dark pit and left her(him) there for months, scared and confused?

[This message edited by WhatisnowNew at 10:46 AM, August 11th (Tuesday)]

Hollowhurt,

I can understand how you feel robbed by your BW's many years of denial and trickle truth.

Have any of you, ever heard of any man that was willing to cheat on his family, not be able to get an erection while perusing AP?

At the beginning of my A I had ED issues with my AP. I suspect it was my conscience at play. I also had a hard time climaxing. Often I would lose my erection before climax. To be honest my AP was different than my BW so sex was weird for me. I felt pressured to perform.

Mind you I didn't get into the A for the sex. That was the price of the ego kibbles I was after. I went for the full on stroking of my ego by my AP.

So yeah, I can see that other men might have an issue.

After the A/As ended, and after discovery, disclosure, during ongoing R, did you ever entertain sexual fantasies about AP/APs?

Why or why not?

How should a BS interpret learning that those kind of fantasies were happening years into R?

MrCleanSlate thank you for you reply and answer.

Yes having your life stolen is a problem. That is the reason for the question.

To me, and please forgive if I insult, the ED issue and being in an affair just don't fit.

I am looking for the end of my wives lies. Her story seems a bit incredible. But as you say, it maybe possible.

The end of the TT is hard end to find.

Whatisnownew

My question is this:

My husband says that he has never stopped loving me during A

In my case, and for many waywards, we tend to demonize our spouse and make the worst case for anything about our M so we can 'justify' the A.

I know that I went down the path of making my M out to be the worst well before my A. That left me open to an A and the lure of the compliments and ego stroking from my AP suddenly became acceptable.

Shortly after D-Day I would have said I still loved my BW even during the A, but looking back now I know I did not. I wasn't putting effort into my M or my BW.

My question is this:

My husband says that he has never stopped loving me during A. He looks convincing but it is hard to believe him as I can’t imagine myself doing those things to him even for a minute. Because I really loved him. Is it even possible to love your spouse and throw her(him) into a pitch dark pit and left her(him) there for months, scared and confused?

It took me some time to redefine what love means to me after the A. Fond feelings are not love. And feelings alone are not love. Love is an action and feeling. Love is protecting the other person, taking care of the other person, sometimes putting the other persons needs above your own, and sometimes allowing them to put your needs above theirs when the situtaion dictates. Marital love includes commitment and faitfulness.

All this to say, I did have fond feelings for my husband even during my affair. I did believe I loved him. When I could see that it really didn't fit the definition I was able to admit that what I was doing was hurting him deeply and robbing him of his security. You can't do that while actively loving someone, the two things do not co-exist.

After the A/As ended, and after discovery, disclosure, during ongoing R, did you ever entertain sexual fantasies about AP/APs?

Why or why not?

How should a BS interpret learning that those kind of fantasies were happening years into R?

I can honestly say no I did not.

The focus of the affair for me wasn't really the sexual aspects, it wasn't what I spent all my time thinking about. But, even if it had been, I don't think I would have done that. I feel like anything confessed gets distilled through the eyes of the BS, it's hard not to picture them seeing it all, being there. At least not for me.

Secondly, I am disgusted by the AP. I don't see anything good about either of us at that time. I have been able to move on about myself a bit, but without a continued relationship that image of him would always be there. I am ashamed and humiliated that I let him touch me or that I participated in the disgusting situation. I would not be able to be sexually aroused by that.

In fact, and this last part might be more of a female thing - there was a time after the A that I would sometimes get flashbacks of some of it during sex, and it would literally ruin sex for me. That's my own fault and I take that as part of the consequences, but it has happened that way. Now, I think about everything a lot less than I used to and I don't have that same problem, not for a long time now.