SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't know about faith-based therapy. I'm sure it runs the gambit from terrible to very good, depending on who you get but MC is not recommended this early on. You will be re-traumatized and likely blamed - at least by him, if not the MC too, depending on whether they know what they're doing. You both need substantial IC under your belts before MC.

As folks have pointed out the true test of whether he's truly remorseful and ready to change is whether or not he's pursuing his own recovery. It certainly doesn't sound like he is.

I don't know if we'll be going to any therapy, let alone faith based therapy, after the discussion we had yesterday. He said the only IC he's agreed to go to was for the sex and porn...that if I think he needs counseling for anything else we need to eff'in check out. I'm also going to IC and before my friend had recommended Biblical counselling at her church, I had him sign a "contract" that we would go to MC but only after each of us had made much progress through IC. When questioned, I had explained "much progress" would be when the other spouse could see changes and how it was having a positive effect on them.

I've never had concrete proof of physical cheating...all Ddays were for porn...other than the most recent one in August that included learning that he was watching how to videos on picking up women, including married women.

I'm wondering if this was a slip of the tongue or if there's anything to "the sex" part of "the sex and porn". Or maybe he just meant because he is a self proclaimed SA.

I had already been wondering if I could ever trust him again but now I'm more suspicious than ever.

Of, course he also made more crazy and hurtful statements about me. Said that he's ALWAYS felt from Day 1 that I never wanted or needed him. He later changed Day 1 to mean from the 1st day that I arrived in VA, 2 months after we met. That was when I had picked up my life and moved 554 miles to be with him. That was a crazy thing to accuse me of because i had moved across the country, left my life, adult kids and my grandkids along with all other family and friends to be with him. All the while not knowing anyone else there but him. Of course I asked why did he ask me to marry him and why did he marry me when he felt that way and why didn't he talk to me about it. He claims he thought I would change...that i had the "potential" to change.

My marriage and the the past 6 years of my life feel like a lie.

[This message edited by MyHeart101 at 9:13 AM, November 18th (Wednesday)]

Oh wow, he's rewriting the marriage. I don't know if he ever actually physically cheated, but he's acting like a person who did. This is also addict speak. You're the problem, not him, he's the victim, etc. I am so so sorry, MyHeart. It's hard as hell when you start to see the ugly parts of them.

I had to come to terms with several years of my life being a lie too and it just sucks so much. The man who wept at the altar told me that he only asked me to marry him because "I figured I was supposed to and I didn't want to lose you". I hadn't even been the one who wanted to get married. I never had hinted at it. He was the one who wanted the wedding with all the family where I was on board with saving money and eloping. He put in so many hours planning this wedding that he supposedly didn't care that much about. But after DDay, no no, it was all to please me and keep me from leaving. This kind of guy, they're too much the same.

It's so upsetting to us when they start spouting this nonsense, though. It's straight up gaslighting.

My Heart,

I went through the same bs - he cheated because I was too independent and he always knew I'd leave him one day. He's also sure I wasn't sexually attracted to him, etc etc. But like your husband, he was hopeful I'd change -

When they say these things they are grasping at straws to shift the blame to us, so they just start making crap up.

Whether he did more than porn I don't know but he's done a lot of shady stuff. Isn't this the guy who was pm'ing women and tried to kiss his own daughter? He's not a well person.

The other clue here is all his rules around therapy - people ready for recovery aren't resistant. They dive in. They're humble.

But he's not nearly as important as you. Are you getting IC?

Yes Skeetermooch, this is the same guy. And my SAWH said the same thing about my independence. I replied that I try to be independent and I certainly don't want to be codependent. Although in reality, I struggle with codependency traits. I had previously divulged to him that I have a fear of rejection and abandonment.

Yes, I am getting IC. I've only had 1 session because I got sick with Corona but I am well now. I know it was only 1 session but I've failed to see how she can help with my BT.

Myheart you asked for my input. Please know that I haven't followed closely, I don't feel I am useful to the wonderful people here as I once was.

That said, his actions and words just SCREAM I AM AN ADDICT Every excuse he gives, every blame he shifts say that he is still trying to protect his fix, whether it be porn, flirtation, scanning, all of it.

There isn't much use of him admitting to being a SA if he doesn't intend to do anything about it.

You cannot force him to do IC, and if IC doesn't seem to work for you, try a different IC. I went through several before I felt comfortable. Your IC could be a CSAT but it's acceptable if they have experience of addiction.

You HAVE to adopt the attitude that he'll do what he does and grow into the idea that unless he changes on his own, unless he adopts recovery wholeheartedly, he is a poor bet. It's so much more complex with a SA than a substance abuser. There is no blood test to determine if he's compulsively undressing women all the time.

One of that best slogans is DETACH Don't Even Think About Changing Him.

As much as we want and yearn and pray that the guy we fell in love with comes back, the reality is that we have absolutely NO CONTROL over what he does.

Have you read about the 180 in the Healing Library? It is an excellent way to begin the detach process. It isn't done to punish him, or coerce him to change (which won't work anyway) it is for YOU.

I have a bad taste in my mouth about faith based counseling IN GENERAL. Too many times betrayed spouses, especially wives, are pressured to "just forgive the sinner." One can forgive and still understand that the relationship is toxic to the BS. In no way does a benevolent God expect us to put our own life and wellness at risk by continuing with an addict. Your results may very well be different.

Your relationship began much as yours did, short courtship, quick commitment. My husband didn't actually lie to me, but I think that they are tormented by the overwhelming sexual thoughts and think marriage will cure them. Since the illness in mental, and the "hole" in them is so deep and dark, unless and until they fix themselves, they stumble through life destroying others and often themselves.

His mean comments and unacceptable treatment of you is typical. You are attacking and trying to keep him from his FIX. An addict will do anything to protect the object of their fix. NOTHING is more important, not wives, children, jobs, not the fear of death, NOTHING is more important than that porn session or lap dance, or flirtatious encounter, or a scanning session at the supermarket.

You have to say to him, "I will not tolerate verbal abuse, I will not tolerate porn, friendships, etc." You have to say, "I will not be in a home where porn is being viewed, I will not sleep in a bed with an abuser" And you have to be prepared to leave, or at least leave the bedroom. This isn't a threat. This is YOU saying where the boundaries are.

I'll monitor this, let me know if there is anything else I can do.

I'm sorry you are in this horrible situation and I'll hold you in the LIGHT.

I second Lionne - look for a CSAT if possible.

I had two other therapists before I found my CSAT therapist and she's so much better because she totally understands both his behavior, the odds of recovery and my trauma - she gets all the dynamics at play and she's so validating and helpful.

MyHeart,

I'm very sorry. I agree with the others that your WH is exhibiting all the signs of being an active addict.

In addition to what Lionne said, which is spot on, (one of the SA-anon programs will also help you learn to detach) I will add that your SAWH won't even truly try to change until he hits his bottom. Signing contract, going to counselors, attending meetings ... none of that will matter until he accepts that his life is completely out of control, and that he needs to change for himself.

He won't hit bottom if the status quo remains the same. He might not hit bottom if you leave him, but for sure he won't if all he needs to do are pretend baby steps to placate you.

Please take the energy you are using to try to figure out how to repair your marriage and instead use it to focus on you. Write out your boundaries. Practice grounding skills. Eat healthy, get sleep, spend time doing things you enjoy. Read books on recovering from betrayal. There are several online classes for healing from betrayal trauma. I think Vicky Tidwell Palmer might have one. And SA Lifeline does as well. Practice detaching. Things will become clearer.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 7:46 PM, November 18th (Wednesday)]

Please take the energy you are using to try to figure out how to repair your marriage and instead use it to focus on you. Write out your boundaries. Practice grounding skills. Eat healthy, get sleep, spend time doing things you enjoy. Read books on recovering from betrayal.

I need that clapping hands emoji.

SA is a family disease in that the actions of the addict affect everyone, even if the addiction is hidden.

And it does take time to get to the realization and actualization that YOU are the most important person in your life.

Light and peace to you.

Ladies,

I was shocked, but SAWH actually offered to and printed the Biblical Counselling application at work last night. I WILL NOT complete it by myself, only if we do it together. He may be only trying to appease me by going to IC and MC but I will go in with eyes wide open and will find out during counseling.

BlackRaven,

I will read Vicky Tidwell Palmer's book. I will also check into SA-ANON again but I believe I had found they weren't meeting or doing ZOOM meetings.

Lionne,

I consulted with an attorney yesterday. TN is a no-fault state and when the time is right, I will be prepared and confident to bring it up if necessary. A no-contest divorce will be the cheapest and I think he would be agreeable. We've previously talked a little bit about how we would split things. Otherwise, I'll let him know what a contested divorce would cost...THOUSANDS of dollars of a retainer fee and $250-$300/hr according to 3 attorney secretaries. He will see I am serious and I could end up leaving as a trial separation anyway.

I've read about the 180. I'm trying to detach but it's soooooo difficult...maybe bc we are in the same house and the holidays are coming up.

Ladies, thank you for sharing your stories and experiences with me. Your support is important to me. I will keep you all updated.

[This message edited by MyHeart101 at 1:23 PM, November 19th (Thursday)]

I will also check into SA-ANON again but I believe I had found they weren't meeting or doing ZOOM meetings.

My local SA-Anon meetings are by phone, (twice a week) and much as the women seem great (one woman calls in from Brazil), they aren't the same. I tried it a few times and then stopped.

SA Lifeline Foundation is the 12-step program my trauma therapist recommended. I can't post the link but just google it. They have at least one zoom meeting every day except Sunday. They are women only, which is nice. After the meetings, we can hang out on zoom and just chat. In just a few months, I've become fast friends with some of the women.

After about a month, I looked over their list of women willing to be sponsors and reached out to one (she lives in a different state). She is great. I texted her during a crisis and she called me back within a minute and helped talk me through it. I can't tell you how much it has helped me.

ps: Retrouvaille is the religious-based counseling program I've heard about.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 1:12 PM, November 19th (Thursday)]

Retrouvaille is the religious-based counseling program I've heard about.

We attended. Mixed results, not particularly "religious" generally a good way to promote healthier communication.

I'm feeling super down and out of sorts. Spoiler alert: I know why: been breaking NC.

So, after his last suicide threat and freak out I decided that maybe NC wasn't for me. I'm mostly scared of him, not for him. I get a lot of anxiety around him harming or stalking me, both bc of my past but also because he's full of rage, delusional and I know he was doing drive-bys during NC. I thought, of course, that I could handle it, that I could keep him at arm's length and grey rock my way out over time.

As usual. he pushed for more contact. I didn't know what to do. I found myself agreeing to more than I wanted to, etc. I also fell into the the false comfort of the familiarity. I wasn't tempted to R or anything like that but weirdly kind of liking having my fake, old friend back while simultaneously harboring this very powerful fear of him. I suppose this is an abuse response - keeping the threat close. I've noticed that the small gains in my productivity and mood are slipping, the depression/anxiety are getting worse again. I got really triggered by an interaction this morning and now, I'm just feeling so crappy.

The worst part is how lost I feel about everything. My work is circling the drain - I may have to do something else for money, which is beyond devastating and daunting at nearly 60. I'm even contemplating Airbnb-ing my master bedroom because it has a private entrance. It's like everything in my life has been tossed into a blender.

My disabled son told me the other day he wants to move into his own apartment and I burst out crying, which I don't normally do in front of my kids. Pre-covid I could've easily paid for an apartment for him but now I can't. My identity as a provider and safety net to my kids is something that has meant everything to me and for the first time, I don't know if I'll ever be able to financially show up for them like I always have.

Just a vent - I know I have to go NC and figure out how to manage the fear of him cooking up a plot to murder me behind my back ;/ I feel so stuck, scared and confused today.

Oh Skeetermootch,

Everything you've said regarding the friend and your finances makes sense. I can feel myself slipping into comfortable, daily living again because we live in the same house and with the holidays coming up. Financially...although not wealthy, I'm the most comfortable I've ever been in my life...because of 2 incomes from descent paying, good jobs. This is the first time in my life that I've never been concerned from one month to the next about the ability to pay a bill. We arent necessarily 1 paycheck from the streets, as I learned when my SAWH has lost his job twice in our short marriage. However, he's in a demanding field in which he never went more than 2 months w/o a good paying job. On the flip side, I would lose that 2nd income that provides a comfortable life and would have to go on a strict budget and drastically downgrade my lifestyle. I feel the same as you about having the financial capability to help my children. I currently spoil my grand kids and I love it.

Your AirBNB idea may work for you. You may also want to look into getting a 2nd job; a part-time job at least through the holidays. This is a busier time for retail and now through January.

Thanks, My Heart.

I grew up poor and spent my early adult years very broke and so like you, I've really, really appreciated this phase of my life - not having to watch my pennies, having extra to save and help my kids. It's a luxury I know not everyone has. My STBX never really "provided." So, he's not much of a draw in that department. Even though he makes good money, it all goes to hookers and debt - also related to hookers and porn. But in tough times, even a familiar, seemingly friendly face is compelling. And, yes, the holidays make it very tempting to slide back into spending time together. I'm definitely not doing it though. But I understand how it is when you're living together - so much easier to just keep doing what you're doing in a way, at least until it's not.

A second job might be good, not just financially, but in getting out of the house, having a bit more structure. The only downside to Airbnb is emptying my room of all of my personal belongings. Yikes. So many clothes, shoes and the bathroom - all of my make up and toiletries. On the upside, it will force me purge the junk I don't need or use. I'll also need to make the guest room comfier for when I stay there. Good thing I love projects

I realize that even "IF" my SAWH is able to learn to control himself regarding the porn, i don't think he has enough core ethics to remain faithful. I know, I know, this is the same thing that you all have told me here. I realize the wrongful, horrible role I played when we got together. He was very wrong by ever even contacting me online, pretending to be single, and never telling me he was married. However, I was guilty for going back to him and staying. I can not change the past, but I feel he has the same mentality and could/would easily do it again. For the majority of our time together I have been haunted by my actions and he is aware of that. I also believe that once I moved to VA, I stayed with him because I felt I had to prove something to everyone in my world. Noone thought it would work and many people warned me. That is also why I stayed with a friend when I left him for a couple of weeks before our engagement and I never told any of my family about it until very recently. I was ashamed and didn't want to hear "I told you so".

In the past I asked him why he didnt tell me he was married. His response was "You never asked". I told him I shouldn't have had to ask, that I had no such experience of ever having to even think to ask of such a thing. He doesn't even see how wrong he was to contact me online through a mutual motorcycle group (NOT for singles) and ask me to meet him when he came to TN for business. I certainly do! I have to live out the rest of my days of knowing what I did to his wife and their marriage but even without the sex/porn addiction in the picture, I dont know I can remain married to him when I have all this guilt and all these feelings. I can't see anything but being haunted by it forever. SAWH and I have our good times, but the guilt, shame, and anger always rears its head again. Oh, how I wish I could change things back to how they were before we met! Regardless of any love I have for him, I wish we had NEVER met! I believe if it hadn't been me he cheated on his wife with that it would have still been with some one else. BUT IT WAS ME.

NOW WHAT? There's a part of me that wants to find his ex and tell her how I feel. I can never make things right but i can give a heartfelt apology. But should I? Would I do more damage to her if I did? She had tried to appeal to me as a woman but I chose not to listen. What should i do now?

[This message edited by MyHeart101 at 8:25 AM, November 22nd (Sunday)]

I realize that even "IF" my SAWH is able to learn to control himself regarding the porn, i don't think he has enough core ethics to remain faithful. I know, I know, this is the same thing that you all have told me here. I realize the wrongful, horrible role I played when we got together. He was very wrong by ever even contacting me online, pretending to be single, and never telling me he was married. However, I was guilty for going back to him and staying. I can not change the past, but I feel he has the same mentality and could/would easily do it again. For the majority of our time together I have been haunted by my actions and he is aware of that. I also believe that once I moved to VA, I stayed with him because I felt I had to prove something to everyone in my world. Noone thought it would work and many people warned me. That is also why I stayed with a friend when I left him for a couple of weeks before our engagement and I never told any of my family about it until very recently. I was ashamed and didn't want to hear "I told you so".

In the past I asked him why he didnt tell me he was married. His response was "You never asked". I told him I shouldn't have had to ask, that I had no such experience of ever having to even think to ask of such a thing. He doesn't even see how wrong he was to contact me online through a mutual motorcycle group (NOT for singles) and ask me to meet him when he came to TN for business. I certainly do! I have to live out the rest of my days of knowing what I did to his wife and their marriage but even without the sex/porn addiction in the picture, I dont know I can remain married to him when I have all this guilt and all these feelings. I can't see anything but being haunted by it forever. SAWH and I have our good times, but the guilt, shame, and anger always rears its head again. Oh, how I wish I could change things back to how they were before we met! Regardless of any love I have for him, I wish we had NEVER met! I believe if it hadn't been me he cheated with that it would have still been with someone else. BUT IT WAS ME.

NOW WHAT? There's a part of me that wants to find his ex and tell her how I feel. I can never make things right but i can give a heartfelt apology. But should I? Would I do more damage to her if I did? She had tried to appeal to me as a woman but I chose not to listen. What should i do now?

[This message edited by MyHeart101 at 8:29 AM, November 22nd (Sunday)]

MyHeart,

I'm sorry for your pain and guilt, but am glad that you are finding you are starting to get clarity that feels right for you.

As to contacting the former wife, that's a difficult one. How do you think she would receive it? Would it bring her peace or tear a scab?

Some food for thought: In 12-step programs, steps eight and nine are all about making amends:

Step 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Step 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

At some of my meetings, we've talked about what it would mean to injure someone. In those instances, we write out our amends, and then don't actually send them. We might share them with a member of the clergy or with a counselor, rather than with the person we harmed. Some people volunteer for a worthwhile cause.

Good luck.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 3:06 PM, November 22nd (Sunday)]

My Heart,

I totally get what you're feeling. I dated a guy for years and it began with him telling me he was separated - a lie. I'd never dated or flirted or anything else with a married person and was clueless. He didn't wear a ring, took me out all over town etc. It seemed on the up and up, until I found out it wasn't. I broke off with him until he was actually separated but it was a shitty way to begin a relationship and I felt terrible for my role in their divorce, even if it had been unwitting. Maybe if I didn't resume contact with him after he separated they'd have worked it out.

I think as a wife, I'd appreciate that call or message apologizing. But I don't know how much she blames you. It's possible she'll spew a lot of rage your way, which might leave you feeling really crappy. Do you have any indication that she's moved on emotionally? Also, she's the baby mama to the poor kid who was molested, yes? From what you've shared, she doesn't sound like the most healthy human on the planet - might be better to avoid that circus.

Your observation about your SAWH's "core ethics" is spot on. You have to value integrity and honesty to practice them. I've come to the realization those things are meaningless to my STBX. At his core he just doesn't see integrity as a thing he needs to care about. It's simply how he's wired. Of all the things that might bug him about his SA, betraying people isn't one of them. To my mind that's a lot to fix and likely isn't fixable.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 8:32 PM, November 22nd (Sunday)]

Just a vent - I know I have to go NC and figure out how to manage the fear of him cooking up a plot to murder me behind my back ;/ I feel so stuck, scared and confused today.

Yeah, you know what you need to do. You probably even know that he's more likely to murder you the longer contact drags on. This delays him growing bored with you and moving on too. He sees that his manipulations work, so he respects you less and less. And that is NOT YOUR FAULT. You're just dealing with a fuckwad, not a normal person. My first husband and I never needed to go NC because he is not this kind of fucked up. It's normal on your end to not feel comfortable with NC. With normal humans, it isn't always necessary.

I know you're scared. Thing is...it's just that there is no actual way to safely break up with a mentally unstable person. There's no safe way to stay with them either. They are unsafe in every scenario. There is no controlling what he does with your actions. I mean, if that were possible, you wouldn't be in this situation anyway. I get it. I've been where you are, feeling like at least if I communicate some I know what his mental state is and can maybe feel safe. But this doesn't allow it to ever end in their minds and keeps you front and center. I went NC and my XWH showed up at my house. That shit scared me. He left and tried several different ways to contact me for quite a while. By the time I completely stopped communicating with him because all property issues and such were dealt with, I felt like I had broken up with him 15 times. The last time he sobbed like a baby. Then several months later, he got a message to me threatening to take me to court for our dog because he knew what would hurt me. I ignored that and haven't heard from him since. You cut them off and they flame out eventually, but they NEVER make it easy for you. You're in a battle with a great psychological manipulator and he's very good at what he does. You get to win by not playing any of these games. You have to walk through his flame-out, though. There's no avoiding it. All you're doing is delaying it and causing yourself more pain in the long run.

But you know all this. Big big hugs to you. These kinds of break-ups are the worst. They fuck you over and fuck you up and don't have the common fucking courtesy to go away afterwards. It's absolutely infuriating while you're going through it.

But when it's over? Whew. It's nice, let me tell you. The peace of it is so great.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 5:36 PM, November 23rd (Monday)]